BS: Tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

'BTW - To those claiming to be socialists while also being nationalists. Can I remind you National Socialism has been tried before. Can't remember where...'

couldn't agree more. i'm a nazi, and a racist.

this what i warned about.just abuse, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:30 PM

"Can you give an example of a Tory doing that?"

No.. I could but I won't.. I've got more pressing things to do with my time..

look for yourself..

come on.. don't play so innocent and unaware..

just open your eyes to the reality of mass press & media content and see for yourself..

there's plenty of it about .. now.. and historically.. 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

Employers and the wealthy benefit from cheaper labour.
Those at the bottom see their wages driven down, rents increased and have to compete for any housing at all and for work.
How can that be reversed?

Pfr,
scare tactic issue
to panic the voting population into pernicious paranoid xenophobia.

Can you give an example of a Tory doing that?
Nothing TM said could be so described.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:31 PM

Mr McGrath is right, it's not about political Parties.

It's about a system which it no longer working efficiently enough to provide for the citizens of the UK.
The wealth gap has never been wider, and like it or not the flood of immigrants add to the problems of the poor, by driving down wages and putting our rocky infrastructure under further pressure.

Calling each other stupid names will make no difference, it just makes you look dim.

Yes, the Conservative Party will keep power for the foreseeable future, but Mr Corbyn has got socialism back on the menu and his job will not be as prime minister, but as an educator of the electorate.

At last a real alternative to clapped out capitalism.

I don't agree with all Jeremy promotes, he's still a bit liberal as far as I am concerned.....to make the middle class accept a drop in living standards and an end to wastefulness will take more than even genuine liberalism!    The steel fist inside the velvet glove.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:28 PM

"If there is a net gain but it benefits employers and the wealthy while hurting those at the bottom, is that beneficial?"

No it doesn't, but that applies to everything in society. It's what capitalism in the form we have it is largely about. If there is net gain it ought to be shared out fairly, and it can be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:03 PM

.. and yes that does include labour right wingers who place personal opportunism, ambition and power above party and nation... 😠


One interesting question for academic researchers may be..

All those tory MP rats who fled a sinking ship to join labour when Blair became prime minister...

To what extent do they now influence & dominate the right wing of the labour party ???

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

"So why do you all only attack the Tories over immigration?"

.. possibly because...
.. although any sensible citizen recognises that there would be a theoretical finite space for occupants on this island,
and accept a rational informed debate on the subject;

only the tories and even further right wing zealots
are at this present time cynically manipulating it as a scare tactic issue
to panic the voting population into pernicious paranoid xenophobia... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:51 AM

So why do you all only attack the Tories over immigration?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:39 AM

...all the other parties also argue that the level of immigration is too high.

Of course they do. They are politicians and tell people what they want to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:07 AM

Stu, your link does not support the views expressed here about the benefit to the economy.

"MigrationWatch UK (2014) criticised the assumptions of Dustmann and Frattini (2013). The criticism covers many factors, but overall it suggests that Dustmann and Frattini (2013) exaggerated the revenues the government obtains from migrants and underestimate the cost of public service provision to migrants. Using new multiple assumptions, MigrationWatch UK (2014) finds that during the 1995-2011 period the fiscal impact of EEA migrants was GBP -13.6 billion and the fiscal impact of non-EEA migrants was GBP -135 billion. Looking at the recent EEA migrants, MigrationWatch UK (2014) estimates that the total fiscal impact of recent EEA migrants for the 2001-2011 period was GBP -0.25 billion and the impact of recent non-EEA migrants was GBP -27 billion for the same period."

If there is a net gain but it benefits employers and the wealthy while hurting those at the bottom, is that beneficial?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punlfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:00 AM

..as tory propaganda & press struggles to scrape through the bottom of the barrel
desperately seeking new bizarrely imagined petty accusations to discredit Corbyn..

How long before they attack his integrity, patriotism, and competance
in dealing with potential impending Alien Invasion or Zombie Apocalypse...??? 😬

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:37 AM

You are ignoring the fact that all the other parties also argue that the level of immigration is too high.

What specifically have the Tories said on the subject that you all object to?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Stu
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:34 AM

"Stu, you can hardly blame Mrs May for the rise in immigration, she has absolutely no power to stop immigration from inside the EU."

Really? You might want to read this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immi from Marchgration/11446218/Theresa-May-defies-Cabinet-colleagues-with-pledge-to-meet-migration-target.html

You can blame her because she said it. Then ignored the fact net migration had risen during her time as Home Secretary. Even business leaders were pissed off with her for spewing out such a nasty little speech.

Any how, in reality the tories and kippers anti-immgration stance ignores the published figures (see here for instance: http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk ). This comes as little surprise as evidence-based policy formation is virtually non-existent in British politics at present (see climate change and the government's green policies for more).

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:26 AM

BTW - To those claiming to be socialists while also being nationalists. Can I remind you National Socialism has been tried before. Can't remember where...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:23 AM

So it goes like this. Tory party know that they are in danger of being found out so they tell their press mates to create scare stories about immigrants. Press co-operate in return for favours granted to them by Tory party. Everyone gets how bad immigration is pushed down their throats morning, noon and night. Tory party then tell everyone how good they are because they are addressing an issue that they made up in the first place. And people keep falling for it...

To give the thread a bit of a folky flavour - When will they aver learn?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:15 AM

One thing that the Con-servative party conference has done is demonstrated how many lies they tell. How keen they are to reduce all of the less fortunate to penury and serf status. This could be the moment when we see how naked they really are, and sweep over them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:03 AM

When I was a teenager there were 2 darker faces in our small market town in Scrumpyshire.

An Indian doctor and a postman, who rumour had it was the offspring of an American GI stationed during the war.

I'm sure some of the locals fueled on the rhetoric of Enoch Powell
considered them sufficient number to get in a panic about being 'swarmed'..... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:58 AM

MoH wrote: "Overwhelmingly immigrants are intelligent hard-working adults with abilities they have developed as they grew up in their countries of origin. They come here like a gift to our society."

Watching the evening news it struck me that those refugees slogging through Europe carrying their children and what meager personal possessions they could manage on their backs, are the kind of determined, courageous people we need in this country (the U.S.).

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM

Oh my word!! I can see them now.

Making a human bridge across 26 miles of the English Channel. Swarming into and over Kent.

Spreading their tentacles past vast swathes of the Home Counties. Heading was to Hampshire, Dorset, Devon, Somerset and Cornwall. Eastwards to Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and eventually HERTFORDSHIRE !!! Heaven forfend.

Entering London.

Making inroads to the North as far as Durham, Cumbria and Northumberland.

It's about time someone wrote a fairy story about it, What!? They already have.

Oh bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 07:38 AM

No upper limit?
Ten thousand?
Millions?
A billion?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:19 PM

Overwhelmingly immigrants are intelligent hard-working adults with abilities they have developed as they grew up in their countries of origin. They come here like a gift to our society.

Of course they need things like houses and schools and medical services and so forth but among them are the people to provide all those things, builders, teachers, doctors and nurses, and all the other skills.

But we have fallen down so badly in the way we organise our society that those skills don't get used as they could be. And the reason for that is an economic and political system that is functionally and morally insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:19 PM

Overwhelmingly immigrants are intelligent hard-working adults with abilities they have developed as they grew up in their countries of origin. They come here like a gift to our society.

Of course they need things like houses and schools and medical services and so forth but among them are the people to provide all those things, builders, teachers, doctors and nurses, and all the other skills.

But we have fallen down so badly in the way we organise our society that those skills don't get used as they could be. And the reason for that is an economic and political system that is functionally and morally insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 05:45 PM

while i'm having one of my sporadic rants on here (rest assured i will get annoyed and leave for a while again soon) can i just say - this is ridiculous and totally unnecessary what is happening to our country. can't we at least try to emulate the more progressive and successful (mostly) northern european countries? do we have to slavishly follow the worst aspects of the usa warmongers?
just back from visiting our daughter who is a printer in estonia and was struck first - by how cheap, and enjoyable, the football was (go fc flora!) how positive the people are, who have suffered greatly. a usually tragic (independent for 40 of its 800 year history) country is doing its best to progress, while our government strives to take us back to some victorian wage slave economy. come on people - we can do better than this. either a revolution is just round the corner or we are truly fucked by fascists. and their pathetic supporters....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 05:00 PM

of course it isn't easy - but we have to try surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:41 PM

Unfortunately its not that easy PFR   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:34 PM

ok.. we abolish capitalism 12.00 noon tomorrow.. agreed.. there.. job done...

Right then tory capitalists, you are given fair notice.
Behave yourselves from tomorrow lunchtime. share your wealth.. and be generally nicer to people....😇

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:30 PM

Laughter at the Croydon Conservative Club

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:29 PM

Don't agree Achmelvich, we will never abolish poverty and give all a stake in society until financial aspiration is removed from the equation.

I don't see another person here proposing the abolition of capitalism, although all seem to agree that resources are finite and the planet becomes more polluted daily by the search for wealth and power.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:24 PM

boko - are you feeling alright? should someone near you be calling an ambulance?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:04 PM

I laugh because we have another 4.5 years of Tory government, by which time there will be less of an opposition than there is now, then we will have another 5 years of Tory government, and other 5 years, and another 5 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 03:40 PM

'the people you see on here are are not socialists......i am a socialist'

forgetting for a moment how you define and express your politics, akenaton, this is a massively arrogant and dangerously fanatical statement.

you know nothing about how i or others here live their lives. as for 'hate' speech- i have never indulged in abusing anyone (er ....apart from the above obviously....) as a union rep, i have to deal with and sometimes represent people who i profoundly disagree with, while also liking them. (eg if i went around calling ukip types racist or ignorant, i wouldn't last long -not noble tolerance, just self-preservation!)

however, i must admit i do hate tories, arms dealers, gun nuts, and any other psychopathic greedy fuckers who are wrecking all that is good about our country and the world. should any of that lot turn up in the pub, i would of course be off my high moral horse. however, these are the guys in control who manipulate and divide all the rest of us - i can't sensibly dislike anyone who is a victim of media lies and oppressive governments.

don't forget it is the 1% against the rest of us - we might squabble on here but we are are all, potentially, on the same side.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 03:12 PM

There was plenty of hate spewed by Porky in his speechto the Self-Servative Conference today.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 02:35 PM

.. and before petty tory diehards accuse 'us' on the broad spectrum from centre to left of being 'haters'..

maybe they should consider that pure toryism lacks 'love' for anyone else but themselves and their own pockets... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 02:18 PM

i think the wat you express yourself Ake, polarises opinion.

no one wants the low wage economy except the tories - so they may cccasionally flash their knickers at the ant-immigration lobby (as Thatcher famously did to get the NF vote). but really the more immigrants and the lowlier the status of the working men suits them down to the ground.

the fight is not about conservatism and liberalism.   or even really about immigration.

its about running this country on a sustainable and business like basis.

we have lived through an age of galloping pragmatism, and the old horse ain't what it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 02:11 PM

'Hate' is a bit of a a vague unfocused fluffy kinda word... like 'nice'... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

The people you see here guest are not "socialists"
I am a "socialist" who recognises some good is social conservatism, and some idiocy in "liberal" ideology.

A true socialist hates no one, but is dedicated to the dismantling of the Capitalist socio/economic system, poverty and worthlessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,English Voter
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:32 PM

I never cease to be amazed at the pure hatred that 'socialists' have for anyone who doesn't share their view of the world. As a member of the self interested majority in this country, I'm happy that we have a Tory government again and, thanks to Labour's tendency to self destruct every couple of decades, will probably have one for many years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:13 PM

Stu, you can hardly blame Mrs May for the rise in immigration, she has absolutely no power to stop immigration from inside the EU.

Richard, I have said that I disagree with 90% of Tory policy, but I believe their change of tack on unregulated immigration is right. If a bit late , considering Mr Farage has been telling them about it for the last five years.

Do you still think he is a racist and a bigot, now that all political Parties agree with his assessment?

Guest, according to the Home Secretary, there is absolutely no net benefit to the exchequer from the present rates of immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:02 PM

Judging by David Cameron's speech today Jeremy Corbyn has got him very rattled.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:57 PM

May was half right which is what makes her dangerous.

Generally there is a net benefit from migration BUT there are social and logistical problems over sudden surges of mass migration.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:06 PM

So there is no "housing crisis."
Look it up Richard.

The benefit or otherwise to the economy is disputed.
It depends how you try to calculate it.
All three parties say immigration is much too high.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM

Dear Dopey

Migrants, on average, benefit our economy by about £500 per year, each.

There are MANY vacant houses, almost all capable of being restored - albeit many in some impoverished places although the drive and innovation of many migrants would doubtless go a considerable distance to revitalising those impoverished places.

All that needs to be done is to tax the rich (and international money-smugglers) and spend wisely.

How long did the housing programme after WWII take to get rolling? There are dozens of designs for pod housing, pop-up housing, containerised hosing. It's not about CANNOT build - it's about WILL NOT build.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:40 AM

Labour and Lib Dems agree that immigration needs to be greatly reduced.
Whoever owns the houses, there are already not enough for everybody, and the population grows much faster than it is possible to build them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:37 AM

You've got to admit it, the Tories are working hard on making this country one no-one would wish to migrate to if they weren't desperate. The trouble for that being people are that desperate.

But maybe given time the strategy will succeed. We've got one minister, Jeremy Hunt, explaining how taking thousands of pounds a year from the working poor will encourage them to work harder, like Chinese workers in sweatshops, and Ian Duncan Smith justifying cuts as a way of setting up a Chinese model two-child family society (though of course not for the well-off), and a think tank calling for cuts to pensioner's help, on the basis that a lot won't be alive by the next election, so there's no need to fret about losing their votes, and with luck a lot will have lost their marbles, and won't remember who brought in the cuts.

Yes. the Nasty Party is back in the open once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:32 AM

I fail to see how Akenaton can describe himself as a socialist.

The Conservative party conference has revealed plans to drive the poor further into poverty, while the economists say that austerity has failed to produce economic improvement, and tax cuts for the rich and for international capitalists continue.

The poor who fail to force their children to the schools filleted and driven to failure by Gove are to face deductions of fines directly from their benefits - while (for example) G4S get given government contracts while accountants magic their profits out of the UK to avoid UK tax - yet the government will not tax them at source.

The elderly face cuts now on the cynical basis that by the next election they will be dead or too senile to remember who took their money away.

Hunt proposes that UK workers should be driven to greater poverty to compel them to work like the Chinese - who have suicide nets outside their factories and where salespeople who fail their targets are forced to crawl in public.

Plans are leaked to halve the number of beds in the NHS - while statistics from the US show that medical bills are implicated in 60% of US bankruptcies.

As for housing - councils and housing associations face plans to make them sell at huge discounts properties they have built and which house tenants at rents that do not contain a profit element (in effect making them give away money to the property speculators who will finish up owning the houses and rack renting them) - and proposals for "affordable housing" to replace it will create houses that will need a salary of £50,000 pa outside London and £75,000 pa inside London.

Then there are the proposals on council tax - which will give the richest councils more money and take money away from the poorest who most need it for social purposes.

And Trident - roundly condemned by the senior military as useless (and which needs US consent and codes to be used - some "independent deterrent" - planned to be kept in some bizarre international nuclear willy-waving contest and useless against the current waves of theocratic international disruption of civilisation. It doesn't even deter anything - compare the number of times that the non-nuclear Switzerland has recently been invaded.

Then there are the headline grabbing lies - for example that Corbyn called Gaddafi's death but not 9/11 a tragedy - he quite simply did not say that. His words are out there. He said the failure to bring Gaddafi to justice and try him was a tragedy and also said that 9/11 was a tragedy.

Then there's Johnson, calling protesters pierced and tattooed crusties. Look at the pictures. A simple lie based on prejudice.

And IDS - forever calling abject failure a success, ducking and diving frantically to hide how many deaths he has caused.

And the calls for the disabled to earn more by work - calls from the same government that culled Remploy.

I could go on but need to stop.

Finally we come back to Cameron - demanding respect. His total failure over the last government and a bit is no basis for him to be respected. Rather he and Sniffing Gideon (and his lies about the "economic success" that only he and his cronies can see) have earned the contempt and hatred of every right-thinking person.


Perhaps this will be the subterranean movement that will finally unleash the tsunami against these rogues and thieves - now that the dead tree media and right-wing TV can be bypassed. When the people realise how roundly they have been betrayed surely their revenge will be unstoppable.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Stu
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:19 AM

"She has been an excellent Home secretary"

Yer wot? Under her supervision the immigration she was rallying so vehemently against in her speech to the faithful has gone through the self-imposed roof of her own manifesto. Her policies have failed utterly. The prisons are in an appalling state, the roads are falling to bits and the infrastructure can't cope.

Her speech yesterday was a joke; she pretended as if her not insignificant failures had never happened. Truth is, at these conferences she could have come on stage and performed a rendition of "This Little Piggy" by farting and they would have cheered.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:52 AM

.. ironically [yes - checked with Alanis Morissette - think I'm using it correctly...]

ironically, a large proportion of migrants may very well be potential tory voters.... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:45 AM

Excellent Home Secretary my fat bottom. She has presided over the very thing she claims as a major evil (I profoundly disagree with her, but on her own terms she's an abject failure). The shameful border controls fiasco of several years ago happened on her watch. With her fierce talk of protecting our borders, etc., she is pandering to her fellow Tory hard-liners on immigration and even more to the racists of UKIP and she has to keep one eye on Cameron's stupid hostage-to-fortune referendum. She is instituting extremely harsh measures for immigrants in her attempts to keep people out, many or even most of whom would be of great benefit to this country. Without immigration on a large scale, for example, the NHS would collapse. It's all political manoeuvring with hardly a thought as to the best interests of this country. Immigration has never been a burden and need never be, as long as we decide to adapt to what is as plain as the noses on our faces, that mass migration is here to stay, and that we'd better get used to the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:24 AM

theres a sort of inevitability about the abuse Steve. racist, dopey liberal....as General Custer said , i feel it in my gonads.

or perhaps thats just balls.

what is genuinely weird and unsustainable is the concentration of wealth in the south east of the country.

in Ripley, Derbyshire - Sainsbury's is regarded as agood job. the people on the checkouts are educated civil - they go home to reasonably priced homes that they pay a mortgage on.

go down to Slough - they need desperately the immigrants to work on the checkouts. they can't speak English. god alone knows how they pay for a place to live with the 'homes under the hammer gang' property speculating like mad in the background.

thats the situation -if the wealth of the country were more evenly spread we could take a more realistic and sensible view of our labour requirements, and how many immigrants we could sustain.
we need a better infrastructure and incentives for firms to locate outside the tory triangle.

the tories won't be thinking along those lines.

no doubt that view makes me a candidate for Britain First in some peoples view on this site. however i am a lifelong labour party supporter. i do not see my views as racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:20 AM

Mrs May is a powerful politician, do not underestimate her.

She has been an excellent Home secretary.....with a coupe of staggers, but strong and inspiring to those with no particular ideology to service,..... in the mould of Mrs Thatcher