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Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015
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Subject: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Nov 15 - 10:37 PM People want to talk about this. As information comes in the story will unfold, needing reflection. The first couple of deleted threads here at Mudcat were posted by people who wanted to catch the reactionary hate and ride it as far as possible. But stories are emerging - Paris taxi drivers offering to take people home for free, Paris residents opening their homes to total strangers who are unable to get out of the area for the night. Compassion abounds as horror strikes. Those are the stories we need to hear. After Sept 11, 2001, many ex-pat Americans found themselves in churches across the city of Paris. I heard a story, I think told by David Sedaris, of being in a church with a famous American soprano opera singer, who sang Amazing Grace and led the group in the song. This is the kind of story we need to hear right now. Don't take the easy path of hate. Look for the love that people manage to share at a time like this. A few people terrorized many. Take the high road. Please. And thank you. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Hilo Date: 13 Nov 15 - 10:45 PM What has happened today in Paris horrifying and, like most people, I am unable to comprehend it . I do hope that people can wait for the full story. But I am not optimistic. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Amos Date: 13 Nov 15 - 11:33 PM Over 100 people dead or wounded in the name of...what? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 13 Nov 15 - 11:36 PM Toll's over 150 now. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Nov 15 - 12:21 AM The New York Times: Paris Attacks Kill More Than 100, Police Say; Border Controls Tightened Tomorrow there will be more orderly information. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Raggytash Date: 14 Nov 15 - 12:27 AM Horrific news. Watching the news come in now. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Nov 15 - 12:31 AM If my phone makes a noise during the night, I may be setting up my guest room. I posted "My couch is yours. #PorteOuverte #StrandedInUS I am 40 minutes from the #DFWairport. It's the least we can do. Le respect" on twitter. I meant it. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 14 Nov 15 - 12:37 AM There's a Paris based English language news channel on Sky satellite [513] if you find BBC and Sky news over cautiously filtered. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Kampervan Date: 14 Nov 15 - 03:19 AM Today France, tomorrow it will be somewhere else. Without knowing exactly who carried out this particular atrocity we should understand that this is the future as long as we are involved in a war against terrorists. We (the West) use drones, terrorists will use attacks like this. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 14 Nov 15 - 03:46 AM Three threads have been deleted. The opening post of this one seems to want to direct our thoughts and responses away from the horror that has actually occurred. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,SB Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:26 AM Guess which pseudo-relgious community is a silent majority - and has been for years. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:11 AM It is very sad indeed and will be made sadder by those wishing to make political gain out of human tragedy. Our thoughts must be, first and foremost, with ones who have lost loved ones. Nothing is more important that human life. By strange coincidence, about 2 weeks ago, I was following up clips and pieces about the band who were performing at the concert. Luckily none of them seem to have been amongst the fallen but for many music fans, life will never be the same again. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Nov 15 - 06:53 AM Well my thread got deleted and was certainly not full of extremist claptrap, so I wish to dissociate myself from the remarks in the opening post. But it may have had the desired effect in that we at least have a thread, so I'm not bothered. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 14 Nov 15 - 07:08 AM Please delete this thread. It is too horrible to think about. I would rather not know about it. Nobody wants to know. Just music only. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Nov 15 - 07:22 AM Don't open it then. I don't agree with you. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Nov 15 - 08:13 AM http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/14/paris-attacks-twitter-islam-muslims_n_8562658.html The people of Paris (and France) seem to be taking the attack with verve. Ultimately, I expect units of the French military will be very busy over the next few months. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Rapparee Date: 14 Nov 15 - 09:38 AM I saw some French newspaper headlines. One (La Soir, I think) read, "Cette Temps C'est Guerre." The others dealt with "Horreur" but implied similar thoughts. Hollande has declared a state of emergency and closed French borders. Yes, I think the French military will be busy. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Nov 15 - 09:47 AM I saw another statement from Hollande that made clear locating and dealing with those responsible will not be restricted to French territory. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Rapparee Date: 14 Nov 15 - 09:51 AM "There will be more information after an Emergency Cabinet Meeting on Monday." |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Bill D Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:25 AM The world we live in now is different than the one most of us grew up in. There was always horror & sadness, but those who perpetrate it are no longer identifiable countries with known leaders. We need forums to discuss causes, share info, help each other cope and try to understand what we, as individuals, can do to improve the attitudes that fuel these actions. Anger is understandable, but frustration can lead to simplistic finger-pointing that helps no one. Let's use this thread to try to make positive contributions. I have some ideas, but I need to formulate them properly before I sound off. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 Nov 15 - 12:27 PM Good man, Bill. My initial thoughts were of anger and retribution, as I suspect many peoples were, but as I said earlier, human life is the most important thing and we must remember that. ALL human life. As a bit of a troubleshooter in the business/IT world I often find that stopping blame allocation and looking for root cause is the best way forward. It is really basic stuff but maybe a positive step in the right direction? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Nov 15 - 12:37 PM I'm going to all the French restaurants, bars and cafes I can think of this weekend. Fraternite. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Nov 15 - 12:46 PM There was a concerted ISIS/Daesh terror effort in the last couple of days. Thursday bombing in Lebanon, Friday in Paris. I know of only one French restaurant in my area, but there are several good Lebanese establishments. Solidarity through gastronomy. I can do that! |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jeri Date: 14 Nov 15 - 12:54 PM Seriously? French restaurants in other countries are not French. I'm gonna go out and be nice to people because there's isn't much else I have the power to do. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Nov 15 - 02:01 PM Sometimes that may be as much as an individual can do in their particular community. I'm not dismissing any suggestions that are well-meaning. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Teribus Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:52 PM "The world we live in now is different than the one most of us grew up in. There was always horror & sadness, but those who perpetrate it are no longer identifiable countries with known leaders." Says BillD "Good man, Bill." Says the Gnome. But Bill D is talking bollocks isn't he Gnome. Please correct me if any of the following is in error.: 1: IS has claimed responsibility for the attack 2: IS declared themselves as rulers of an Islamic Caliphate centred in the parts of Syria and Iraq that was beyond control of the Governments of both Syria and Iraq 3: Their "Government" sits in Raqqa. I know who the enemy in this case is, I know where their leadership is located can you tell me why and how they cannot be engaged? In 2001 on September 11th an international terrorist Group based and protected by the de facto but not internationally recognised Government of Afghanistan hit targets on the mainland of the USA. Articles 5 & 6 of the NATO charter were invoked and the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan were attacked by NATO Forces who assisted the Northern Alliance inside Afghanistan. Last night in Paris another NATO member was attacked by a group of terrorists based in Syria - why does the same principle not automatically apply and articles 5 & 6 invoked? So tell me BillD |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Joe Btfsplk Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:10 PM "The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here's what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it." |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:49 PM I have to agree with Teribus. When 9-11 occurred, we had no idea who was behind it and, yes, we were in criminal investigation for years because of this ambiguity. But where's the ambiguity here? These people have claimed responsibility for murdering 100 plus French citizens. And killing 40 in Lebanon. And taking down a Russian jetliner. What does it take to provoke us into taking decisive action? We know who they are, where they are, and why they did it. Sure, we don't know all of the reasons and causes and things we could have done better to have avoided this situation. But when the Titanic struck the ice berg, I don't think time was set aside for a period of mourning, and followed by a careful analysis of the ice berg patterns in the North Atlantic. It was time for immediate action. In perhaps a more accurate analogy, Daesh is like a cancer on the face of the world. Once it has been successfully diagnosed, there may be time for anger and for sadness, but the task at hand is to eradicate it before it spreads, if our own survival means anything to us. Kindness, peace, and understanding between me and my fellow man is something I fervently desire. But when someone has professed a desire to kill me, self-preservation takes precedence. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:50 PM And Joe, that article in Atlantic is excellent. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:54 PM As I said earlier. It will be made even sadder by those who to wish to make political gain out of human tragedy. Sorry, Bill, but I do not wish to give them any further reason to mock those trying to be positive. It sickens me too much so I am out of here. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Hilo Date: 14 Nov 15 - 06:27 PM Positive ??how can one be "positive" in the face of this horror. A grOup of peoPle set out to murder dozens of innocent peoPle. The days of "positive have long since passed! |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Ebbie Date: 14 Nov 15 - 06:46 PM Is what is being suggested that the USA step in and clobber Daeshe's stronghold? Not France? I can see the US being called upon to help, and to provide materiel- but manpower? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 Nov 15 - 06:51 PM Nobody's talking about political gain. Are we so wrapped up in self-doubt that we can't even defend ourselves without questioning our motives in doing so? It's certain that our enemies don't have those stumbling blocks. I'm reminded of Yeats' words...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Rapparee Date: 14 Nov 15 - 06:54 PM Ebbie, the US already is. It's not talked about, but it's happening. And I don't mean "trainers" and "advisors." Other countries are also doing it. I will let you to research it. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 Nov 15 - 07:08 PM And, Ebbie, for the US to take on Daesh on our own would be more of the folly we have witnessed over the past decade. I think a force made up of Muslim troops from mainly Sunni nations like Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi would be the best approach to launching a ground offensive in Syria, Iraq, and Libya, supported by European, American and Russian air forces. A rapprochement with the Kurds would be vital, and just one of many challenges that we have to undertake to put an end to this so-called caliphate. In addition, stringent rules need to be applied in countries with large Muslim populations to prevent recruitment, including the silencing of pro-jihadist imams. A cyber infiltration campaign should be launched with the intention of infiltrating and disrupting Daesh websites. Those who can be shown to have entered Syria or Iraq who have not been granted a secure visa to do so, should be prohibited from re-entry into their country of origin. European borders need to be secured and guarded. None of this "feels good", or "is positive". Neither is dealing with the TSA at American airports, seeing concrete walls around the Lincoln Memorial, or facing death in a Paris concert venue. Praying for peace and eating croissants in sympathy just won't cut it anymore. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,gillymor Date: 14 Nov 15 - 07:21 PM The longer we stay over there the more enemies we make. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Nov 15 - 08:15 PM There is no reason to believe that an effective effort by outsiders to wipe out Isis in the territory it controls would do anything to reduce the likelihood of Isis related atrocities elsewhere. It could very well have the opposite effect. That in itself might not be a reason not to act in that way. But it would be foolish to imagine that it would be a simple cost-free option. Rushing into action more or less at random, in order to be seen to be doing something, in the way that happened in the wake of 911 would be likely to be as disastrous as that was, with all its consequences - which in truth include Isis. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 Nov 15 - 08:40 PM McGrath, the threat is real. Whether we respond adequately and correctly is critical, but the status quo is intolerable, and can only get worse. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Teribus Date: 14 Nov 15 - 09:50 PM MGOH we have been in this fight since 1970, it is only now coming home and beginning to hit us, they refuse to take on our military because they know they will come off decidedly second best, we have protected by and large certain aspects of our lives, so they now wait watch and attack what are "soft" targets. Plain fact now is that ISIS/ISIL/IS/Daesh or whatever you want to call them under no circumstances can be seen to "win". That means we attack them and destroy them wherever they are - I would not condemn France now if it flattened Raqqa. I would force them out into the desert and obliterate them, there is no negotiation with them, there is no reasoning with them, they want you converted to Islam, living under Sharia Law, or dead. There is no compromise, there is no middle ground, that is the reality. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:53 PM Teribus, there are 220000 people in Raqqa. France is not going to "flatten Raqqa", and neither are we, or even the Russians. Killing innocent people is not our mission. Any full scale coordinated assault against ISIS will require comprehensive planning, cooperation from anti-Daesh Syrians, and the use of Sunni Muslim forces on the ground in a nasty street-to-street battle. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:59 PM There is no reason to believe that this would reduce the likelihood of atrocities such as we have just seen, and in fact there is every chance that it would increase it. That might be seen as a price worth paying. My point is that it should not be seen as a way of preventing such things happening. The danger is that if our governments are clumsy in the way they respond there is every danger that it won't just be a matter of continuing and escalating mayhem in our cities, but of actually extending the territories where this horrible perversion of Islam is able to operate. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Nov 15 - 11:19 PM If there was ever a case of proxy war upon proxy war, this is it. The support of ISIS, etc., from Middle Eastern and Arab countries opposed to the relationship of Israel to the rest of the region, and the major source of itching powder is dumped in annually by the U.S. and it's apparent unflagging support of the nonsense that Israel is up to. Every time a peace treaty is near, Netanyahu or some other yahoo (in the Swiftian sense) snatches defeat from the mouth of victory and the fighting continues. Only the irritation has gone on for so long that the target ceases to be Israel, it is now the Israeli supporters. Israel's government ministers are opposed to a two-state solution, though what we hear from individual Israeli citizens seems to contradict this. Whatever, they can't elect a rational government to truly reflect what we regularly hear from the "man in the street." Meanwhile, Palestinians have watched this and given up hope of movement away from the policies of settlements and second class citizenship. Israel's existence would be much less unsettled if their behavior was civil and conditions for Palestinians, whose land was taken to form Israel, stabilized. And reparations paid. LOTS of reparations. The trouble with saying this is that the thread is bound to become another Keith and Jim show, or BeardedBruce and GfS blowing steam out of their ears, and all and sundry piling on. This isn't asking for the interminable battles, this is a simplified view of the source of all of the festering anger in the region that is coming back to bite Western nations in the ass. It's too late to fix Israel and everything will settle down - the raison d'être of these terrorist groups is now to attack the west, a Juggernaut that we built with our own hands. I read Exodus when I was a kid, and found the Israeli cause charismatic and appealing. Too bad someone didn't hand me (and others like me) the writings of Edward Said instead. I read them as an adult and found them equally sympathetic, and a lot more rational. What Teribus advocates is truly horrible. All the more horrible because the West created this monster. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 15 Nov 15 - 01:02 AM McGrath, you may be right. Islamic extremism is here to stay, no doubt. If it's not Al Qaeda, its Daesh, and if it's not them, it's someone else. But currently you have a sovereign state, or at least an army that has declared a significant amount of geography part of its state, that is openly waging war against neighboring states in the Middle East, and a terrorist guerrilla war in the rest of the world. The DAESH state is a training ground for misfits throughout the world in how to inflict death on innocent civilians, and it represents a tangible embodiment of this mystical Caliphate that is motivating these people. Their defeat and the reincorporation of the DAESH state into the states of Iraq and Syria will at least reduce the jihadists to an underground movement. Does the Arab Spring seem like a mass delusion, or not? The thought that moderates in Libya, Egypt, and Syria could establish sectarian constitutional governments without interference from Radical Islamists seems like a total pipe dream in light of the nightmares that have followed. Were the brutal strongmen like Khadafi, Assad, Mubarak and Hussein agents of relative stability? It is painful to entertain such a cynical thought, but difficult to dismiss it. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Teribus Date: 15 Nov 15 - 03:03 AM " the West created this monster." Simplistic and idiotic statement - No the "big, bad West" did not create this monster, what the "West" did was confront it. As for the rest of your "It's all Isreal's fault" diatribe please correct me in any of the following: 1: A two state solution in Palestine was offered to the Arabs by the UN in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it and chose the path of armed conflict instead. 2: Against all odds the newly declared and internationally recognised State of Israel prevailed. 3: Ever since that date the Arabs have chosen war and have been remarkably consistent in losing every time. 4: Hate to have to point this out to you Acme but if you elect to go to war, promising to annihilate your chosen enemy, then lose, you automatically must face the consequences of your own actions and take responsibility for them. 5: As a result of all of the above there are no fixed and agreed "borders" separating Israel from Yasser Arafat's 1970s invention - The Palestinians. 6: ISIS does not give one fig for Israel or the Palestinian cause. As far as ISIS is concerned they are both irrelevant in their perceived order of things - ISIS would wipe out both given the chance, already they have maimed and murdered more Muslims than Israel has in the entire history of it's existence. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 15 Nov 15 - 03:45 AM I wondered how long it would take to be all "Israel's fault". And of course the west is to blame as well. Ignorance of history certainly allows people to simplight complicated issues and that kind of glib talk is never very helpful. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 15 - 03:48 AM I think what Acme is saying Teribus, is that although we did not create Islamic Fundamentalism, we took the lid off the box of horrors by our ill thought out adventures in principally Iraq and Libya. The removal of dictatorships, to be replaced with chaos was a definite mistake. These countries require different governance due to ethnic and tribal tensions, the availability of huge stores of arms, and of course the poisonous ingredient of IF. I agree that we have now reached a situation where these people must be stopped and there is no positive way of doing this.....but it can be achieved. We need to reverse our role in Syria, stop supporting the "rebels", join forces with the Russians and use Assad's troops and their allies to push the fundamentalists right out of their bases. In Iraq the strategy will have to be amended as the US still control what government there is....in any event a coalition with the Russians is imperative for success. There will still be atrocities committed in the name of IS that is in the nature of the beast and we will get our share. We are looking forward to a very different world that the one which "Western liberalism" has created. We need to re-examine our ideologies if we are interested in our survival. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 15 - 04:04 AM Jim, If these people(ISIS) have their way, there will be very little humanity in the world. I have no doubt that many "sleepers" are already here. This morning ISIS reported that "The Paris attack is simply the first of the storm" The policy on "Free movement within the EU" was madness on many levels. Get over your out of date ideology. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 Nov 15 - 04:19 AM A lot was made about just one part of what BillD said. Let us look what the rest of the post was. We need forums to discuss causes, share info, help each other cope and try to understand what we, as individuals, can do to improve the attitudes that fuel these actions. Anger is understandable, but frustration can lead to simplistic finger-pointing that helps no one. Let's use this thread to try to make positive contributions. I cannot see how you can disagree with that. It is that sentiment that I applauded but as so many would rather use the thread for anger and simplistic finger pointing I decided ti bow out. Apologies for coming back but I really needed to clarify that. Now I will leave you to it. Maybe, Bill, if you read this, you could create another thread that may be kept on the track you suggest? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Nov 15 - 04:25 AM "I have no doubt that many "sleepers" are already here." And yet another rational comments on a horrific statement - we can't let any of them them in because there might be baddies among them. Long live humanity eh? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Nov 15 - 04:36 AM UK Police and security estimate we have about 400 Jihadis who have been to Syria and returned. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 15 Nov 15 - 04:39 AM Well, this thread is finished. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Nov 15 - 04:45 AM So it's keep them all out eh? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 15 Nov 15 - 05:12 AM Went to an excellent Johnny Coppin gig on Friday!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 15 Nov 15 - 05:34 AM I was going to make a sarcastic comment about the cake I'm making this morning but this thread is FAR too serious for that. So far 129 people have died, we should be pause to think of them and their grieving families. Families trying to come to terms with the fact that their daughter, son, wife, husband, mother or father will not be returning today or tomorrow or ever. Lets leave trying to score cheap political points and making wild accusations where they belong at this time. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 15 - 05:45 AM "Cheap political points"....are you mad? Extremely important political points....it is important that we confront this nightmare, your head in the sand attitude had much to do with the opening of Pandora's Box. Platitudes will help no one. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 15 Nov 15 - 05:57 AM Akenaton, I believe this thread was created with the hope that scoring points would be avoided. I have no doubt that there are serious issues to be discussed but could I respectively request that another thread is started for such discussions. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:10 AM How many condolences do we need? We should be apologising for our actions in assisting these head cases. We have completely destabilised the whole area by our foolish ideology. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:16 AM 2We should be apologising for our actions in assisting these head cases." I take it you don't mean the part Britain and the West in general in facilitating the rise of Isis through inaction and self interest. I suggest you take this somewhere else too - bit distasteful to make this tragedy a platform for your own hatred. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mr Red Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM "we" need to talk to the disaffected youth before "they" are talked to by "them". We need dialogue with "those" who say "not in my name" so that they can do some talking. How we do it is not clear but a start must be made. And I predict there will be a "temperance" movement/culture that is wary of large crowds, not the least because going there will be tightly controlled and patrolled. Otherwise it will all happen again. air travel is an example. Cue internet & TV consumption of large events. So I will be paying for things I don't want, like football, just to see the one thing I do; eg on BT Sport! But given the above it is a cost I am willing to bear. For evil to prevail, good men have to "do nothing". |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: DMcG Date: 15 Nov 15 - 07:56 AM I see a number of bands (Foo Fighters, Coldplay and others) have decided to cancel their tours out of respect for the people of Paris. I understand that view, but I think it would have been better to say: "Our tours will continue, because we recognise these terrorists are a handful of the 6 million French Muslims and we will not change our way of life to suit them. We also recognise some people may be afraid of the risks, so if they wish to stay at home they can. If we end up playing in an empty stadium, so be it, that's what we will do." |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stu Date: 15 Nov 15 - 08:21 AM "Simplistic and idiotic statement - No the "big, bad West" did not create this monster, what the "West" did was confront it." Well, you're wrong there Tez. ISIS was conceived and formed in Camp Bucca in Iraq after the US put all it's captured Al Quaida prisoners in that camp, giving them the opportunity to network and organise in way impossible had they been scattered to the prisons around the globe or taken back to the US and held separately (which would have precluded the use of torture of course). |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Nov 15 - 08:39 AM "What do you think the "Palestinians" really want?" To be left in peace on lands they have occupied for millenis, not to be evicted to somewhere else to make room for someone else of a different religion. Not that this discussion has a place here - who knows where it will all end?? So take it somewhere else Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Nov 15 - 09:19 AM Suggest you open a new thread and maybe we'll get round to discussing the recent illegal attack on a hospital, the kidnapping of a patint and the killing of an unarmed relative Not here eh Bruce? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Teribus Date: 15 Nov 15 - 09:38 AM "you're wrong there Tez. ISIS was conceived and formed in Camp Bucca in Iraq after the US put all it's captured Al Quaida prisoners in that camp, giving them the opportunity to network and organise in way impossible had they been scattered to the prisons around the globe or taken back to the US and held separately" Good heavens Stu are you really trying to tell us that members of Al-Qaeda can only network if they are captured and held in prison? That they hadn't done so before and "uncaptured" members of Al-Qaeda didn't continue to do so through out from 1993 onwards. Absolutely stuff all to do with being put in prison together there were none of them in prison in 1991 when they planned their first attack on the WTC. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: David C. Carter Date: 15 Nov 15 - 10:03 AM I would just like to thank those people on Mudcat who sent me,and my familly PM,s or e-mails,who know I live in Paris,to ask whether we were ok. Yes, we're are not far from where this event took place,but we're ok. Thanks again David |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 15 Nov 15 - 10:20 AM "Jihadism, an expansionist terror drive carried forward by radical Islamists that seeks to destroy pluralism by holding a literal version of Islam as the sole rulebook for not just Muslims, but the entire world. Jihadism nourishes itself by painting Muslims as perpetual victims of the West's actions – an idea perpetuated by regressive sections of the left and Islamists alike." Kunwar Khuldune Shahid |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Nov 15 - 10:49 AM So you have a motive for the actors in Paris. The takeaway from my remarks above was meant to emphasize that the US has a hand in the disorder in the Middle East - they need to stop supporting a status quo that is inherently unfair. As long as the injustice of the Palestinian lack of a homeland is as it is, there is fuel pouring onto the terrorist passion. Paris attacks: Weapons found in 'getaway car' Several Kalashnikovs have been found in an abandoned car believed to have been used by some of the Paris attackers, French judicial sources say. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Nov 15 - 11:46 AM "I don't know how to say it more directly than this: Yes, the members of ISIS come from Muslim backgrounds. No, their actions cannot be justified on the basis of the 1400 years of Islamic tradition. Every serious scholar of Islam has confirmed this clearly, and unambiguously. ISIS is about as Muslim as the KKK is Christian. If you don't look to the KKK to tell you about God's message of love as expressed through Jesus, don't look to ISIS to tell you about God's mercy as expressed through Muhammad." Wisdom from Omid Safi, Director of Duke University's Islamic Studies Center. (CVC) |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Nov 15 - 01:03 PM For the record - Guest (Bearded Bruce's) 'facts and figures' were lifted directly from Peter Hammond's ' Slavery, Terrorism and Islam' Hammond is an extremist fundamental Christian, the founder of Christian Action, dedicated to opposing any attempts to modernise which, he believes, is contrary to biblical teaching. These include, homosexuality, abortion, even 'protest' which is, he claims, contrary to God's wishes: "A Biblical Response to Protests back to the bible Protesting against wickedness is Biblical. Damage to property and violence is not. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace…" 1 Corinthians 14:33 Elijah protested against the idolatry and apostasy of Israel (1 Kings 18:18-40); Isaiah protested against the wickedness of Egypt and Cush (Isaiah 20); Jeremiah protested against the social sins of drunkenness, adultery and prostitution (Jeremiah 13); Ezekiel protested against immorality and violence in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 24); Jesus protested against the corruption and desecration of the Temple by the moneylenders who turned the House of God into a den of thieves (Mark 11:15-17). Biblical examples of challenging unrighteousness in public affairs have included: Personally approaching the officials or by writing letters exposing injustice and calling for repentance and obedience to the Law of God." He is a Christian extremist as Isis are Muslim extremists. These claims need to be read in this context. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Nov 15 - 01:25 PM We'd be better off here if people had to use names instead of being able to troll as GUESTs. Or if moderators could just scrub them. I assume this thread is going to be closed pretty soon. That's a pity because it's a subject that is worth discussing. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 15 Nov 15 - 02:51 PM One of the primary reasons for rooting ISIS out of its so-called caliphate will be the defusing of the refugee crisis in Syria, Iraq, and surrounding areas. The influx of refugees into Europe is completely out of control, and the lack of borders fuels this chaos. I believe that this was one of the primary reasons Russia upped the ante on their commitment against Daesh. Syria must be stabilized and reclaimed, so that these people have a home that is safe and protected from the constant threat of murder, strife, and disruption. Germany is planning to absorb 1 million Syrian refugees? A recipe for disaster. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Nov 15 - 03:14 PM "We'd be better off here if people had to use names instead of being able to troll as GUESTs. Or if moderators could just scrub them." I've been saying it for years. Time and time again. But I won't say it again here, Kevin, as I wouldn't wish to be accused of repeating myself. I'll just let you repeat what I've repeated many times. *Sigh* |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 Nov 15 - 03:47 PM Lonesome EJ. If a government says it is accepting Syrian refugees it is accused of accepting terrorists. If it accepts no refugees it is accused of being heartless. How is anyone supposed to react in this no win situation? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Ilsa - She Wolf of the SS Date: 15 Nov 15 - 05:05 PM The blood of Paris is on Assad's hands . . . The old Mudcat troll has so far posted the same toxic message 12 times, all to be deleted. They are removed as they appear. If you are here to participate in the discussion and encounter one of those, simply ignore his inflammatory nonsense and it will be deleted in good time. ---mudelf For the record, there's more than one mod deleting the copy/paste stuff. If the only opinion you have is someone else's, don't bother. --Mod |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Nov 15 - 05:43 PM But what about stuff like the last Guest,, mudelf? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:12 PM On Friday night, in Paris, 129 unarmed, defenceless civilians were murdered in cold blood - by any sane persons reckoning, that's 129 too many! But we should also remember the death tolls of innocent civilians in countries like Iraq and Syria. In today's 'Independent on Sunday' newspaper (15.11.2015) the columnist, Patrick Cockburn supplied the following chilling statistics: "The number of civilians killed in Iraq jumped from 4,623 in 2012 to 9,473 in 2013 and to 17,045 in 2014, according to Iraqi Body Count, an independent website; a high proportion of these killed were Shia victims of IS bombers and murderers." So, last year, the death toll in Iraq was 132 times the death toll in Paris on Friday night - 132 times the grief, 132 times the suffering and 132 times the anger and despair. I certainly don't want to minimise the horror of what happened in Paris on Friday night but we need to remember that the people of countries like Iraq have had to endure much, much worse for far, far longer. One hopes that our 'glorious leaders' are working on a viable solution ... although I'm not holding my breath! |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:20 PM The problem is, that Isis are not particularly interested in the niceties of theology, Isis is concerned with world domination. Don't think that is impossible....In Paris eight people caused death and mayhem on a grand scale, just think what they could do to Western economies should they indulge in a little chemical or biological warfare. We are in a very vulnerable position, due to our idiotic policy of destabilisation. We have removed law and order from admittedly hard regimes....BUT these regimes are hard because they have to be Assad and Gaddafi had been fighting Islamic fundamentalists for decades, then the US, France and the UK come along and destroy their armies.....in the name of "human rights" What a laugh! Does anyone really think there are any "rights" in Libya, Iraq, Egypt today......be honest for once and admit that we fucked up big style over the "Arab Spring".......Arab Springboard more like! Why is the West hesitating to join President Putin in a real move against these dangerous people? The arms we have been supplying to the "rebels" are in large part being used against the regime not ISIS. Many are deserting and joining Isis. Only the intervention of Putin in support of the Syrian Army has stopped the whole of Syria falling into the hands of the Islamic State and making some progress in recovering lost territory. IS is the greatest danger facing the world at the present time, it is imperative that we form an international coalition even if it means "losing face" by Western ideologues. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Teribus Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:37 PM ""The number of civilians killed in Iraq jumped from 4,623 in 2012 to 9,473 in 2013 and to 17,045 in 2014, according to Iraqi Body Count, an independent website; a high proportion of these killed were Shia victims of IS bombers and murderers." So, last year, the death toll in Iraq was 132 times the death toll in Paris on Friday night - 132 times the grief, 132 times the suffering and 132 times the anger and despair. I certainly don't want to minimise the horror of what happened in Paris on Friday night but we need to remember that the people of countries like Iraq have had to endure much, much worse for far, far longer. One hopes that our 'glorious leaders' are working on a viable solution. Muslim extremists and terrorists have killed more Muslims in Afghanistan; Iraq; Syria and Libya than: - The IDF - The MNF - The US - NATO - ISAF As for "One hopes that our 'glorious leaders' are working on a viable solution" - there is only one solution - destroy IS. There is a fundamental difference between IS and say Al-Qaeda - IS relies on holding territory to maintain itself, it is required for revenue and it is required to maintain the illusion of there being a "Caliphate" over which it rules. None of this applies to Al-Qaeda which makes them harder to destroy. In the north of Iraq now the IS controlled city of Mosul is now cut off from IS in the west in Syria and from IS positions in the south in western Iraq. That has been accomplished in exactly the same manner that the Taliban were initially defeated in Afghanistan in 2001 - by indigenous troops on the ground backed up by specialist advisers and airpower. In northern Iraq it is the Kurdish Peshmerga who are taking on and defeating IS. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:47 PM Don't confuse them with facts Ake, it's the Israelis dontcha know! |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:49 PM Turning back to the activities most recent, it appears that France has not delayed in responding to the ISIS provocation. http://www.cbs8.com/story/30522351/officials-manhunt-for-suspected-paris-attacker-on-the-run France bombs Islamic State HQ, hunts attacker who got away The rest is at the link above. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 15 Nov 15 - 07:07 PM There are good reasons to wait for the full facts instead of jumping to the conclusion that Isis infiltrators are exploiting Europe's refugee crisis. Article Here |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Richard Atkins Date: 15 Nov 15 - 09:26 PM Tony Blair and George Bush with their lies to their voters and the resulting Iraq invasion disabled the whole area allowing ISIL to form with so many tragic results. 9-11 being one of their precursors My march attendance in protest To UK Parliament ignored then. The two above should be taken to task on war crimes themselves! The United Nations involved then. Where are they now? France Prime minister mentioned "Act of war" Correct to sort soonest by all worldwide now before carnage in London and Washington next perhaps |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Nov 15 - 09:43 PM Reverberations of the good old colonial days. It takes a long time to sort out what colonizers put asunder, however things suited them at the time. Lots of maps exist that show the lines people drew, regardless of who was living on either side of it. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Vashta Nerada Date: 16 Nov 15 - 12:57 PM The Month that ISIS Became a True Global Threat They are expanding their range, seemingly, but it isn't all going their way. It's also worth noting that the attacks come after a very bad week for ISIS on the battlefield. The group lost the northern Iraqi city of Sinjar to U.S.-backed Kurdish forces, cutting a supply route between the group's capital in Raqqa, Syria, and its Iraqi stronghold in Mosul. In western Syria, ISIS's year long siege on a key airbase was broken by Russian-backed Syrian troops. A drone strike also appears to have killed one of its best-known militants, the British executioner Mohammed Emwazi, aka "Jihadi John." Angering Russia, the US, France, and others is going to generate a serious response. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Nov 15 - 02:40 PM Jeremy Corbyn says he is "not happy" with UK police or security services operating a "shoot-to-kill" policy in the event of a terror attack. The man is bonkers. He is not fit to be an MP, yet alone lead the Labour party. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 16 Nov 15 - 02:43 PM Hey, Bozo- long time no see! But not long enuf. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Nov 15 - 03:39 PM Anyone even suggesting that ANYONE is justified, for ANY reason going into a theater, opening fire on unarmed people is just as sick and perverted as the perpetrators themselves!....and then try to hide behind 'political correctness'??????? GfS |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 16 Nov 15 - 03:39 PM I would think that a majority of people would be concerned by British Police operating a shoot-to-kill policy. You should hope, should the situation arise, that it is not one of your loved one's at the other end of the scope. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 Nov 15 - 03:40 PM Bombing will be increased no doubt. And it is quite likely that the Kurds will continue to make gains, as long as their immediate objectives fall within the boundaries of what they will consider the State of Kurdistan. Syrian troops may make gains on the ground, but ultimately their use appears to be limited unless US and European governments decide to recognize Assad. What is needed is a strong Allied army of Sunni troops..Saudis, Jordanians, Turks, Egyptians...who can give some confidence to the largely Sunni populace that the Daesh propaganda which claims that the US and Iran and a powerful Jewish banking consortium are planning to exterminate the Sunnis is not the truth. If you can assemble these troops, then you still have the problems with Assad, and you have to keep the Turks and Kurds distanced from one another to avoid a possible conflict there. On another note, it is somewhat encouraging to note that the clandestine Western hacker group known as Anonymous has declared that they will take down all ISIS-related websites and twitter accounts, and have apparently begun doing so. Like it or not, a borderless Europe would also seem to be a thing of the past, as well. By the way, wasn't this thread closed for a while? I was surprised to see it open again. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Nov 15 - 05:05 PM "Isis are not particularly interested in the niceties of theology" Aken wrote. Actually from what I've read, they are, and are very keen to justify what they do in those kind of terms. It strikes me that it is a mistake to speak of the division from other Muslims in term of extreme and moderate, which invites them to be seen as the authentic believers. This plays into the hands both of Isis but also of those who try to generate hatred of Muslims (which of course is one of the things Isis aims to do). Better and truer to emphasise that, in tems of Islam, they are blasphemous heretics, whom any true Muslim ought to oppose with all their strength. One outstanding demonstration of that nature was that notice put out by them in the wake of the Paris massacres, not just claiming responsibility, and rejoicing in the atrocity, but doing so in the name of "Allah the compassionate, the merciful". The truth is that there lies their vulnerability. And that is why they are indeed desperate to justify what they do in terms of "the niceties of theology". |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Ebbie Date: 16 Nov 15 - 05:18 PM American papers are stressing that "ISIS is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity." Sounds about right. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Kampervan Date: 16 Nov 15 - 05:35 PM http://www.straight.com/news/420321/gwynne-dyer-explains-why-terrorism-overblown-and-why-islamists-want-western-countries I think that we are over-reacting to this incident. We are giving the terrorists the publicity that they crave. Grieve, but don't publicise. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jeri Date: 16 Nov 15 - 05:59 PM The hacktivist group "Anonymous" have weighed in on this. Frankly, I think they have the best chance of being effective, since warfare doesn't seem very effective. The problem with Anonymous is they seem to focus for a little while, then go off elsewhere. (Although I'll admit I don't really know WHAT they do.) |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:04 PM Even using the term "Islamists" or "Islamic State" is to give them a kind of support, and crebillity as authentic representatives of Islam. Better to speak of them as "Daesh", which they hate. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:23 PM I don't think they give a stuff what we call them, they are capable of inflicting great damage on Nations who oppose them, especially developed trading nations. I agree wholeheartedly with Lonesome EJ, there is huge destabilisation in the area and the answer will not be found purely through military means. Much of the Muslim world, not just jihadists, see Western society as debauched and immoral, our way of life and governance offends ordinary Muslims so much that they are very reluctant to integrate into our society... there is a huge cultural gulf. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:39 PM The coverage on NPR's All Things Considered this evening discussed the ISIS fundamentalist view that it is approaching "end times" and they are positioning themselves accordingly. And apparently if it is near the end, dying a little sooner than later is part of the strategy. The news I listen to, Ake, is telling lots of stories now of people helping people after the attacks. Of Muslims being hurt, of Muslims helping other people, en masse, regardless of who they were - they simply needed help. A baker who had a dozen people rush in for cover, after he already rescued an injured woman from her car. You need to hear the stories of hope and generosity generated from the man on the street - many of those men and women are Muslims, they aren't the disapproving lot you seem focused on. My next door neighbors are devout christians, and we figured out in a hurry that we don't see eye to eye on religion, but we are great friends because we have so much of everything else in common. I think that is how more of the world works than you give it credit for.
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:41 PM there is huge destabilisation in the area Send your cards of thanks to George W. Bush & Co. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:47 PM To see many aspects of modern Western society as in many ways debauched and immoral, and to be offended by it is hardly limited to Muslims. My point is that this is every bit as true in different ways of Daesh, and that there is a huge moral gulf between them and most Muslims, it's not really a matter of "moderate" and "extreme". The KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood and so forth are not "extreme Christians", they are extremist pseudo-Christians, and the same is true of Daesh in relation to Islam. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:53 PM Well said, Kevin. Spot on. If this was an Olympic event, you just earned a perfect 10. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 16 Nov 15 - 07:04 PM Don't get me wrong Acme, it is not all black and white, there are very many things about Western "society" of which I disapprove . I don't think the Muslims are totally wrong to reject some aspects. The point I was making is that the cultural gulf is enormous and there are large numbers arriving into European nations in a very short period of time. Other immigrant groups arrived at a slower rate and in much smaller numbers, allowing racial integration to take place. What we have in modern Europe is a cultural revolution. None of this of course, excuses the slaughter of innocent people. The Jihadists must be removed and more sensitivity shown towards other cultures by inhabitants of western Europe and the US. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Richard Atkins Date: 16 Nov 15 - 08:19 PM Acme My last post was strong and to my point of view. and your thread closed by the moderator worried me. After my PM message there so good to see It back! There are trolls, but with my name there I trust I'm not on that list! I was outside the Horse and Groom Guildford after the bomb there years ago. Those leaving walking in silence, white dresses red to the knees. My heart is with France at this sad time |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Janie Date: 16 Nov 15 - 10:52 PM Really appreciate your remarks, McGrath. Wondering how many people have taken the time to read the lengthy but excellent Atlantic article Joe linked to very early in the thread - unless, of course, one was already quite informed. Also pondering some remarks - can't recall whose at this point - contrasting 'western society' to Muslims. Because of where I live I don't know a large number of Muslims. Those I do know are very much part of the 'Western Society' in which I live. Granted, I do not live where there are large, recent immigrant enclaves from any part of the globe. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST, ^*^ Date: 16 Nov 15 - 11:10 PM I work in a community with a large Muslim population, and in my work I have many Muslim co-workers and student assistants. But their first identity isn't "Muslim," it is co-worker, friend, student. We find our cultural differences to be interesting, and discover ways to share across cultures, usually via food. We look into each others eyes, without fear. We share jokes, show each other family photos, tell stories about our homes. The addage " a few bad apples" comes to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Nov 15 - 08:42 AM A couple of political fallout results after Paris on Nov. 13 - the downed flight from Sharm el-Sheikh to St. Petersburg is officially being called terrorism. Egypt was resisting that designation, but Russia has made the announcement and probably won't get much pushback from Egypt. And United States GOP governors have a toe-hold on their next political fight - preventing Syrian refugees from settling in their states. Immigration isn't a program run by states, it is federal and as Obama said, "screening isn't based upon religion," but in Texas, for example, the governor is directing the health department to not participate in any assistance programs for immigrants from Syria. (These stories aired this morning - later in the day the transcriptions will appear so they can be read or listened to.) |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stu Date: 17 Nov 15 - 12:33 PM "Good heavens Stu are you really trying to tell us that members of Al-Qaeda can only network if they are captured and held in prison?" No, I was saying ISIS was formed in a US prison; this is pretty well-known. The US acted as an enabler in this case, by assembling a core of people who went on from Al-Qaeda to create Islamic State. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 17 Nov 15 - 03:21 PM As many of you already know, my dad was killed by terrorists way back in 1983, when they invented the suicide carbomb and blew up the French and American embassies in Beirut. John Oliver has the closest to my response, which is (for the warmongers) NOT IN MY NAME. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 Nov 15 - 04:02 PM Have you asked yourself...why would a terrorist assassin be carrying his Syrian passport in a theater where he was killing dozens of people? Did he need it in case the doorman asked him for some id? I mean, while he's carrying an AK47? To any thinking person it's quite clear that the Daesh organizers of the Paris slaughter WANTED the passport found. And then, why? To create panic regarding the influx of Syrian refugees, would be my thought. And to cause Europe and the United States to begin refusing these refugees. What better propaganda than that the US is refusing to allow Syrian Refugees to come because they are terrorists? And if they can get the US to differentiate between the Christian and Muslim refugees, what a bonus! Oh, wait...Jeb Bush has already said that. In their fear, jingoism, and need to make political hay, the Republicans in this country, and the Far Right parties throughout Europe, are playing right into the hands of ISIS. They're maniacs, but they aren't stupid, are they? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Nov 15 - 05:06 PM Fantastic atmosphere and great empathy shown tonight at Wembley, in the England-France friendly. Dead chuffed I was to watch it. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Backwoodsman Date: 17 Nov 15 - 06:19 PM Me too, Steve. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: kendall Date: 17 Nov 15 - 08:16 PM For once, I'm not going to add my opinions, but, the whole thi9ng reminds me of a story. (What doesn't?) A little boy came home with a black eye from a fight. His Dad asked how he got it, and the kid said, "It all started when he hit me BACK.' Over and out. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Nov 15 - 08:28 PM I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but, if you're implying somehow that "we've got it coming", then I'm absolutely not with you. Would you care to elucidate? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 17 Nov 15 - 08:29 PM Yes, I totally asked why the passport. I also haven't heard Daesh claim responsibility for anything that wasn't already in the news. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Richard Atkins Date: 17 Nov 15 - 09:10 PM Wembley stadium the English sing La Marsiellasilese brill. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34849505 Copy and paste on the web works as no blue clicky perhaps. Shame I was not there for that though. So good to see the England France match continued regardless of recent events with UK suport |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 17 Nov 15 - 09:17 PM I'm not quite sure what you mean by that... Perhaps see 16 Nov 15 - 06:41 PM, Steve. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Nov 15 - 01:19 AM Both stories from The New York Times today A Rare Night Out in Paris Ends in Tragedy for Two Close Cousins An ISIS Militant From Belgium Whose Own Family Wanted Him Dead And a result of the events of last week, from facebook: "After the Paris attacks last week, we made the decision to use Safety Check for more tragic events like this going forward. We're now working quickly to develop criteria for the new policy and determine when and how this service can be most useful. Unfortunately, these kinds of events are all too common, so I won't post about all of them. A loss of human life anywhere is a tragedy, and we're committed to doing our part to help people in more of these situations." |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Nov 15 - 01:53 AM In light of the weeks events, and considering all the view points....and seemingly all we can do is watch...if you don't have a certain political agenda, you might consider molding the angst, into a well crafted piece of music.....weed out the 'cause issue' and religious/political fans...and dial into the human struggle/hopes/tears/loss/fear/love/anxieties etc etc and take a musical picture that tells the the heart of the common resonating node of mankind, and communicate it with pathos of resolve....and make the world, no matter how small your sphere, a better place, with understanding. First step for musicians to not tolerate the corruption of the human spirit...and those who promote it.....!! It my alter your outlook! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 18 Nov 15 - 08:31 AM New news but at least the suicide bomber blew herself up in her own apt and only when the cops came. Pity about the police dog, too. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 18 Nov 15 - 10:33 AM Wrong thread to start fighting on. Hopefully trollish posts will get deleted sooner rather than later. Agreed. It may be better to just close the thread if people are done talking about the specific subject, but we'll see. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 18 Nov 15 - 11:20 AM "I also haven't heard Daesh claim responsibility for anything that wasn't already in the news." How would one know otherwise? |
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Subject: BS: I am your average Terrorist From: Donuel Date: 18 Nov 15 - 01:04 PM I grew up in extreme poverty up to lower middle class conditions. My childhood was not a stranger to death. War killed my ancestors with the US selling arms to us and our enemy. Recently The US invaded my country and killed more of my family. I had no early religious instruction but came to Jihad Islam recently. To live I sought new lands and trusted my own people there herded into ghettos. No jobs for unlike the native born. Petty crime is the day to day grind. I feel ostracized, kicked aside, unimportant. Some of my own people have a plan to make me important, to be somebody. I am sexually frustrated not only by religious commands at the peak of my hormones but by partners under similar pressure. If I go outside my faith and people I feel impure. I am loved by the important jihadists who will save my people. It is exciting. It is a prime of our life duty to God to kill the infidel. It is a short but worthy important life. It is a death with honor and GOD. I cling to my guns and Koran. Poor young misguided ass holes are taken advantage of by old ass holes in different ways in their culture as well as our culture. Fomented by invasions and constant war the fate of young Muslims is more perilous than drugs and rock and roll ever was and will ever be. Short of killing these adolescents Can you think of alternatives as if they came from red states? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 18 Nov 15 - 01:24 PM Thank you, Mudelf. Let us also remind everyone of the intentions of the opening post - After Sept 11, 2001, many ex-pat Americans found themselves in churches across the city of Paris. I heard a story, I think told by David Sedaris, of being in a church with a famous American soprano opera singer, who sang Amazing Grace and led the group in the song. This is the kind of story we need to hear right now. Don't take the easy path of hate. Look for the love that people manage to share at a time like this. A few people terrorized many. Take the high road. Please. And thank you. Surely it cannot be that difficult to stick to that can it? When people who have lost someone can come out with something as magnificent as this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I am your average Terrorist From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Nov 15 - 01:42 PM So, why are you different from the other thousands upon thousands, if not millions, of people from the exact same places and times, who aren't barbarians? The terrorist is a teeny tiny minority of the above. The US has done horrible damage, yeah, but... Just because all terrorists are moslems doesn't mean all moslems are terrorists. Just because all terrorists were downtrodden doesn't mean all downtrodden will be terrorists. What makes *you* so inhumane? |
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Subject: RE: BS: I am your average Terrorist From: Donuel Date: 18 Nov 15 - 01:58 PM I am sure when the barbarians were at the gates of Rome, Mrzzy, your same question was asked. It is not my intention to play devil's advocate. But you pose a interesting question. The Isis attempt to be over the top sadistic is a 'can you top this' game of sick carnage which is inhumane. Isis is .7% of all arab muslims. They are tiny. There activities are designed to bankrupt the West with our 3 trillion response to their quarter million dollars of human destruction and inhumanity. Bits of a couple of threads combined for continuity. ---mudelf |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Nov 15 - 02:09 PM Guest 11:20 am, you ask "I also haven't heard Daesh claim responsibility for anything that wasn't already in the news." How would one know otherwise? Um, by watching the news. If the news says, there were 8 attackers, and then Daesh claims all 8 were theirs, but then it turns out the French are seeking 2 more, it would be more believable had Daesh claimed all 10 in the first place, n'est-ce pas? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 18 Nov 15 - 07:24 PM "it would be more believable had Daesh claimed all 10 in the first place, n'est-ce pas?" So why doesn't Daesh say all 16 people involved were their agents. That way the French would know they were still six short. Really Mrrzy?? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Nov 15 - 09:15 PM Interesting that the Russians and French have agreed to joint maneuvers as soon as the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle is into position. France sends aircraft carrier to aid airstrikes on Isis in Syria and Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,JTT Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:59 AM The Chinese are joining in too, because of the murder of a Chinese hostage. Something tells me this won't end well. Some odd reporting of the death of the girl yesterday ( 18 November 2015 ) in Paris. She is universally described as 'blowing herself up' and 'setting off her suicide belt', despite the fact that observers reported her as standing in the window shouting "Help - help me, please help me!" with her hands up, and apparently trying to use a phone at times. Sounds to me as if she was forced into the explosive belt and then someone - police or jihadists - shot her and set it off. She was the cousin of one of the murderers. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Donuel Date: 19 Nov 15 - 07:57 AM It is important, no, it is crucial we know our enemy. TO KNOW YOUR AVERAGE TERRORIST; You must know details of their upbringing. You must know their lack of and finding what they claim is religion. I tried to explore that in a now closed thread. So other details about these ad hoc decentralized young people who plan terrorism. They like to act on a clever date in keeping with 911. They only see targets that a young person is most familiar. They attack alcohol dispensaries, sports, death metal hook up concerts. There are claims they are after multinational corporations and bans but that is not apparent lately. In answer to sports crowd education it should be noted that crowds do have a tendency to trample themselves to death so this issue needs to be addressed. The incompetency of these young terrorists is on our side but steps can insure safety in situations of mass fear. While I'm not gonna study war no more they do. As in the art of war we need to know the profile of our enemy. America we should not give our country over to generals and for go our nation's principles. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Vashta Nerada Date: 19 Nov 15 - 07:59 AM Breaking news from Paris announces that the young man they were trying to apprehend was one of those killed in the apartment explosion. Bad news is that the French government has extended the extraordinary powers to search without warrants, etc, for another 3 months. Let's hope this privilege is not abused. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Nov 15 - 09:47 AM Um, They attack alcohol dispensaries, sports, death metal hook up concerts. -- they attacked ONE death metal concert. And it was probably more an American band than a death metal band in terms of being a target. But it was way more a concert at the most targetable venue. And, yes, really, why should we believe them if nothing they say isn't already known? This is why cops keep back details in murder cases, so they can tell the false confessions from a real one. I'm not saying it wasn't Daesh. I'm just saying Daesh is not whom we should be believing about who it was. Why did the close the Average Terrorist thread? There were some good points being made there. I thought. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Nov 15 - 09:47 AM (they close) |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM "They like to act on a clever date". In this case Friday 13th. They go to slasher movies it appears. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 19 Nov 15 - 11:57 AM I think what Anonymous is doing is great. If you wish to help, here's how. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/anonymous-opparis-hacktivists-publish-noobs-guide-fighting-isis-online-1529173 |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:01 PM Of course, the information would be just as useful to would-be hackers sympathetic to.Daesh. A bit like the Anarchist Cookbook really - equally helpful whoever it is you are trying to blow up. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:46 PM Uh huh. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Nov 15 - 12:16 AM The Nov. 13 events on a human scale. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Nov 15 - 12:41 PM The French helped keep Bamako's incident to fewer hostages, apparently... |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 20 Nov 15 - 01:54 PM French Special Forces are excellent. They have the added benefit of a government that seems to mean what it says. France has declared war on Daesh and will pursue its members diligently in countries with which France has good relations. I don't think 'bring them back alive' is high on the agenda. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 15 - 09:34 PM A live prisoner is much more valuable than a dead body. Even assuming that it's not yje wrong desd bidy, like Jean-Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian electrician shot seven times in the head while being held down in his seat on the London Tube. And remember, in the case of jihadists, they want to be killed. Shoot-to-kill is doing them a favour, and they don't deserve being done a favour. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 20 Nov 15 - 09:50 PM I doubt jihadists' concerns are a French government concern. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Teribus Date: 21 Nov 15 - 02:50 AM "in the case of jihadists, they want to be killed" In that case then MGOH we should take every opportunity that presents itself to accommodate their desires. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:02 AM The problem would be "mission creep".....if the policy was extended beyond Jihadists. We surely don't want an armed Police State. I suppose most armed police officers when in a dangerous position already "shoot to kill" |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:13 AM 72 virgins will be of no use whatsoever if their bollocks have been blown to bits!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Nov 15 - 08:14 AM "In that case then MGOH we should take every opportunity that presents itself to accommodate their desires." Why? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 21 Nov 15 - 11:15 AM That Brazilian was shot by the Brits, not the French, but still, there is a strong possibility of overreaction. I keep hearing that the woman in St. Denis did not blow herself up but not what did happen or how they know it. All my French friends are keeping their peckers up, as the Brits would say, I'm in strong admiration mode. Note that *I* am not being strong unlike the French I know, which is why my admiration is. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:39 PM Bonzo3legs: "72 virgins will be of no use whatsoever if their bollocks have been blown to bits!!!!!" Well sorta...but would they have 'their bollocks' in eternity??...AND most glaringly obvious.. 72 virgins for eternity????..give me a break..72 virgins would last for only 72 days(or nights) in 'eternity'!! Boy! The stuff people come up with to control masses of people....just like politics!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Paul Burke Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:36 PM Even assuming that it's not yje wrong desd bidy Thanks for a (presumably inadvertent) laugh in a desperate situation. Now consider this- that these people might not be simply evil. They might not be just out for the virgins. They might actually think they are doing it for the good of the world, and a few eggs need to be broken if there's going to be an ommelette. They see a corrupt and hypocritical society - in Iraq, Afghanistan, Arabia, Syria, Lybia, France, Britain and almost anywhere you look- and they think they have a way of putting it right. If people would follow Islam properly- not just lip service to bits of it- all would come right. We get paradise on this earth, here and now, no need to wait for houris. They are so committed to the service of humanity that they will willingly die for it, which is what gives them the edge over mercenary or conscript armies, or risk- assessed technology operators. It won't be the first time- I knew Catholics in the 60s who were committed Soviet communists, who knew that the stories about Stalin were just capitalist propaganda. I've known and respected IRA supporters. And I've known Americans who knew that their interventions in other countries were pure in intent. It's probable that there were Nazis who really thought that they were improving the world. So let's try to address this problem intelligently- look first to our own failings. Do we support democracy? If so, why did we not support the demnocratically elected Hamas government in Gaza, and why did we allow the military to take over in Algeria all those years ago? And if we don't, let's stop pretending we do and start saying what our real values are. Gnothe seon - know thyself. And study your enemy as he is, not a cardboard cutout. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 21 Nov 15 - 08:33 PM The fact that people elect their respective governments in a democratic way doesn't necessarily mean the results of those elections were fair or unbiased in the result. I came across and bookmarked a brilliant essay that I find worth looking at from time to time. It's a ten minute read (but it is not worth much if it's not read and considered in its entirety). https://newrepublic.com/article/88632/failing-democracy-venezuela-arab-spring |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Nov 15 - 09:37 PM Actually those daft typos of mine Paul Burke reposted there are an illustration of how dead easy it is to make stupid mistakes if you doing something in a hurry. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 22 Nov 15 - 03:04 AM Paul Burke: "So let's try to address this problem intelligently- look first to our own failings. Do we support democracy? If so, why did we not support the demnocratically elected Hamas government in Gaza, and why did we allow the military to take over in Algeria all those years ago?" Why did we allow and facilitate, the toppling of so many leaders, throughout the Mid East, who, thought they were 'dictators' by our standards, but who had stabilized governments. Remember, their culture is different than ours..Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq just as examples. Not only have they had their families' lives and land destroyed, many of them now have nothing..except maybe being paid in their 'Jihad Military'...they have nothing to lose, and in their eyes, with quite a bit of truth, the West has been the source of a lot of social turbulence. We have supplied, at one time or the other, arms and financial aid to both sides of THEIR internal conflicts...and sometimes even backed away from our allies over their....but.. at least the aforementioned countries that had stable leaders, seemed to be able to control a lot of their own internal problems....so ya' got a lot of disillusioned, angry people who have NOTHING to lose. So as Paul asked, "So let's try to address this problem intelligently- look first to our own failings. Do we support democracy?" Note in passing: IF the Senate blocks the refugee bill from being voted on, then I guess the answer, for all practical purposes, is "No". So, what really IS going on?? GfS |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:59 AM Russian air strikes in Syria have killed over 400 civilians since September this year, monitoring groups say. The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) said the death toll from September 30 - when the strikes were launched - until November 20 stood at 403 civilians, a figure that includes 97 children. Does this make Russia a terrorist state? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Nov 15 - 12:33 PM It isn't terrorism when it is being done by governments, it's war (crimes, a redundancy if there ever was one). |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,JTT Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:42 PM Europe seems set to make the same mistake America did after 9/11 - "They killed our people; well, they're dead, but let's go and kill a lot of other people." Paul Burke is right. But I think he's also wrong, in that there's a kind of intoxication of brutality taking hold, when people kill hostages and circulate videos. They don't realise - and we don't realise - that the means aren't justified by the end; the means change the end. If you use brutality in your efforts to realise your ideal society - whether that's by stoning adulterers and burning pilots to death, or by drone-bombing death-planners and assassinating your enemies - then you will end up with your ideal society tainted by the blood on your hands and the brutality that you have made the norm. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Paul Burke Date: 22 Nov 15 - 02:55 PM people kill hostages and circulate videos You're right, there does seem to be an effect like, we're on a roll. But remember when the media glorified the hanging of Saddam? What I'm really saying is that evil is when ordinary people become convinced that they have the right to treat other living beings- humans primarily, but also animals and plants in other circumstances- as objects. Whether as a video'd burning to demonstrate that we're doing it because we can, or the stratospheric calculations of those who view a hundred thousand deaths as acceptable collateral damage, or the businessmen who see the rainforest as somewhere we ncould be growing palm oil, if only it weren't in the way. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 22 Nov 15 - 02:56 PM And then there is U.S drone "warfare"[sic]if you want to talk about dead civilians. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 22 Nov 15 - 04:16 PM In a world of brutality where no one's hands are clean, collateral damage caused by the use of drones would seem to be much less than damage caused by gunners in a theater, where all of the damage is collateral. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 22 Nov 15 - 05:58 PM Tell that to the families of the thousands upon thousands of dead civilians, EJ, and get back to me with how they respond, eh? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lighter Date: 22 Nov 15 - 06:00 PM You mean *none* of the damage is collateral. It is 100% primary, being desired and fully intended by the perpetrators. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Nov 15 - 06:56 PM Bang on, JTT. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:18 PM The irony is, that should the Islamic caliphate spread its tentacles worldwide, the "liberals" will be the first for the chop. They hate liberal ideology even more than they hate Christianity. Problem number one is....are we prepared for a "Holy War" which could last for decades and involve guerrilla tactics such as we have seen in Paris......have we the stomach for it, will our economies sustain it......I am extremely doubtful. How are we to prosecute such a war, the more we kill in Syria and Iraq the more dangers we face from home grown and foreign trained fundamentalists. A handful can disrupt a whole city for weeks and what about hoaxes to which our service people must respond, it is almost unwinnable. They are about to attack our economies, disrupt our daily lives and spread fear and despondency. A bleak outlook, but there is no alternative available, the Genie is out and our "liberal" brethren pulled the cork. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 22 Nov 15 - 08:13 PM They are about to attack our economies, disrupt our daily lives and spread fear and despondency. To quote an lld-time mudcatter: THE SKY IS FALLING! "Spread fear and despondency"? Only if we let 'em. You want to be afraid of something? Be afraid of being killed or maimed by a drunk driver. A hundred thousand times more likely than being injured by a terrorist. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 23 Nov 15 - 03:55 AM Greg, terrorists don't have to KILL you to make life impossible. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:08 AM Right Ake. Not even an attack in Brussels but the metro, theatres restaurants, schools, businesses all closed now for days. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:04 AM To add support to Greg's comment...a package of statistics. www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/03/youre-55-times-likely-killed-police-officer-terrorist.html The French have repostioned the aircraft carrier Charles DeGaul and flights began this morning into Syria. Strange absence of Buttons |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:39 AM All statistics have outliers. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:02 AM "All statistics have outliers." 'Data analyzers inspecting tables or figures might decide to exclude from statistical analyses unusual data points sometimes called 'outlier' data points. Statistical patterns and conclusions might differ between analyses including versus excluding outliers.' from http://www.researchgate.net/post/When_is_it_justifiable_to_exclude_outlier_data_points_from_statistical_analyses |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:28 PM Lighter, I think you are right, collateral meaning "unintended". Coalition forces in the Mideast have at least the tacit understanding that the target is not innocent civilians, the jihadis having the understanding that everyone is guilty and anyone is fair game. Greg F, I'm not saying thousands in the Mideast haven't died. I would however contend that far more have been the victims of sectarian violence, Taliban and ISIS "law", and repression by their own governments than by drone bombing. I'm no fan of drones, except when they root out human cancers like Jihadi John. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:27 PM I would however contend that far more have been the victims of sectarian violence, Taliban and ISIS "law", and repression by their own governments than by drone bombing. Oh, well, then that's all right, innit? Sorry to pick on the poor drones. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 24 Nov 15 - 09:55 AM Pastor Who Hosted GOP: Paris Victims Were 'Devil-Worshippers' After standing with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee, Kevin Swanson says the 89 people gunned down in the Bataclan "loved the devil." A Christian pastor who hosted Republican presidential candidates a week before the Paris terrorist attack says its victims received divine retribution for worshipping Satan. Kevin Swanson of Generations Ministries said last Thursday that the 89 people massacred inside the Bataclan theater were "devil-worshippers." Two weeks earlier, Swanson headlined his own "Freedom 2015: National Religious Liberties Conference" featuring Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, and Bobby Jindal. Swanson believes God will annihilate America for tolerating homosexuality and seemed to say God already made an example out of the Bataclan. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Nov 15 - 10:08 AM The latest wrinkle in the Paris bombing story is that the eighth suspect has gone missing (his cell phone not used since the day of the attacks) and his discarded bomb belt was found in a trash can. His brother has stated that this bomber suspect couldn't go through with it. Others speculate that the bomb failed to explode. Reuters account summarizing recent activity. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Nov 15 - 01:05 PM Interesting and uncomfortable article in yesterday's Irish Times by one of our better journalists Jim Carroll GRIEVE FOR PARIS, YES, BUT WITHOUT ANY SELF-PITY Lara Marlowe Paris Letter We see death on an industrial scale, but we are selective in our compassion In the hours and days that followed the killing of 130 people in Paris on November 13th, I received an unprece¬dented number of texts and emails from friends and relatives who feared I might have been caught in the massacres. I was touched and amused. The odds were greater I'd be run over by a bus. The well-meaning messag¬es seemed to assume I was on the verge of collapse at seeing my beloved Paris attacked with such ferocity. I went to the Bataclan concert hall, where 89 people were killed, walked the streets, talked to people. And I wondered at my own lack of emotion. Of course, there were chinks in my armour. A few days after the massacre, the evening news began with a photomontage of the victims. I held back a sob. The radio journalist Antoine Leiris lost his wife, Helene Muyal-Leiris, at the Bataclan. He wrote an open letter to her assassins, which was widely published by French media. "On Friday night, you stole the life of an exceptional being, the love of my life, the mother of my son; you will not have my hatred, " Leiris wrote. When he finally saw his wife's body in the police morgue, "She was as beautiful as when she went out on Friday night, as beautiful as when I fell madly in love with her more than 12 years ago. Of course, I am devastated with grief. I concede that small victory to you. But it will be of short duration. " Only a heart of stone would not be moved by Leiris's short text, his determination to raise his 17-month-old son to be "happy and free". Massacre fatigue I nonetheless wondered if I was suffering from massacre fatigue. This year alone, I covered the Charlie Hebdo killings (17 dead), the German- wings crash (150 dead, killed by a suicidal co-pilot), the Bardo museum in Tunis (21 dead) and the beach massacre in Sousse (38 dead). Death on an industrial scale seems an integral part of our lives. But we are selective in our compassion. Some 2, 200 Palestinians were killed in Israel's 2014 assault on Gaza, nearly 17 times the number of people killed in Paris. If no man is an island, why aren't we grieving for the 19 people massacred in a Bamako Hotel on November 20th? Or the 44 killed in Beirut on November 12th? Or the 224 Russians whose plane was blown up by Islamic State on October 3 When asked what he thought of western civilisa¬tion, Mahatma Gandhi allegedly replied, "I think it would be a good idea. " Terrorist attacks bring out the arrogant streak in world leaders. Nine days after 9/11, George W Bush told a joint session of Congress: "They hate our freedoms. " Freedom to kidnap and torture through the practice of "rendition"? Freedom to destroy Iraq and plunge the Middle East into chaos? I couldn't help hearing an echo of GWB in President Francois Hollande's speech at Versailles last Tuesday. Islamic State "fights us because France is a country of liberty, because we are the country of the Rights of Man", Hollande said. A poll conducted for Le Figaro and RTL after the attacks showed 84 per cent of French people are willing to accept limits on their civil liberties in exchange for greater security. The government is in the process of legalising searches without warrants beyond the three-month state of emergen¬cy. Marine Le Pen's National Front is poised to win multiple regions in December 13th elections. All victories, I fear, for the jihadists. Had the attacks occurred in Mulhouse or Roubaix, or in another European capital, they would not have had the same resonance. It is possible to love a place the way one loves a person, and everyone loves Paris. Past trials The shrapnel marks on the defence ministry, from German strafing in the first World War, street plaques dedicated to some of the 1, 600 men and women who died liberating Paris in August 1944, are witness to past trials. As Maurice Chevalier sang during the second World War, "Paris will always be Paris/The most beautiful city in the world. " We need her special genius for creating beauty and conviviality. That will not change. Of the many possible reactions to the attacks, Antoine Leiris's was closest to my heart. Refuse to hate. Refuse to be angry. Continue life as normal. In the aftermath of 9/11, the Polish poet Adam Zagajewski wrote a poem titled Try to Praise the Mutilated World. I've read it many times this week: "You've seen the refugees heading nowhere, you've heard the execution¬ers sing joyfully. /You should praise the mutilated world. " Grieve for Paris, yes. But without self-pity, and without ever losing sight of the millions who have suf¬fered longer and in greater numbers. And yes: we must try to love the mutilated world. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 24 Nov 15 - 07:21 PM I don't know about everybody else, but I've had enough of hatred to last me ten lifetimes. When ideologies are worth more than the lives of babies and kids, maybe it's time to rethink wtf we are all about. Want to piss off the partisans from all sides? Refuse to get involved in the hatred paradigm. Not a guaranteed thing, but I'll give you ten to one, fifteen if you insist :-) |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:08 PM This thread is about the events surrounding the attacks in Paris. Stick to the subject. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:34 PM Dear Mr. Acme, I have been following this thread since its inception... What in glorious Buddapest are you referring to ? ? ? This is one of the tightest, most focused threads of 2015 ! ! ! Mr. G, this thread has as many troll and off-topic deleted posts as it has posts that appear. Careful tending by several elves have achieved a tolerable thread. We're glad you think so, too. --mudelf |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 24 Nov 15 - 09:32 PM Dear Greg F.... Whether intentional or mere dupes...the fans at the venue did not deserve to die. However, they were Satanistic fans...take a look at these lyrics: Who'll love the devil?... Who'll song his song?... Who will love the devil and his song?... I'll love the devil!... I'll sing his song!... I will love the devil and his song!... Who'll love the devil?... Who'll kiss his tongue?... Who will kiss the devil on his tongue?... I'll love the devil!... I'll kiss his tongue!... I will kiss the devil on his tongue!... Who'll love the devil?... Who'll sing his song?... I will love the devil and his song!... Who'll love the devil?... Who'll kiss his tongue?... I will kiss the devil on his tongue!... Who'll love the devil?... Who'll sing his song?... I WILL LOVE THE DEVIL AND SING HIS SONG!... |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:03 AM Like a LOT of things, it's all fun and games, 'entertaining' and defiant...until the rubber hits the road. Still, an absolute tragedy... GfS |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:23 AM Whether intentional or mere dupes...the fans at the venue did not deserve to die. Take it up with pastor What's-His-Name, Guest. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:33 AM Most of the news stories these days have shifted focus to Brussels, Belgium, and the neighborhood of Molenbeek. Schools on high security, raids, high tension all around. New York Times story Terrorism Response Puts Belgium in a Harsh Light BRUSSELS — A month before the Paris terrorist attacks, Mayor Françoise Schepmans of Molenbeek, a Brussels district long notorious as a haven for jihadists, received a list with the names and addresses of more than 80 people suspected as Islamic militants living in her area. Follow the link for the rest of the story. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:53 PM Aren't ISIS convenient for governments who want to stitch up the 99%? http://newsdaily.com/2015/11/ahead-of-climate-summit-french-use-emergency-laws-to-put-activists-under-house-arrest/ |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:33 PM "These 24 people have been placed under house arrest because they have been violent during demonstrations in the past and because they have said they would not respect the state of emergency," Cazeneuve said in a speech in Strasbourg. Who saw that coming? Anyone who understands the concept of the swinging pendulum. Bush pulled the same thing in the US after the Sept. 11 attacks, and managed to convince the House and Senate to vote through sweeping Homeland Security measures that we're still untangling. The patriotic fervor can out shout the voices of reason at times like this. |
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