BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:33 PM

I'm fucking not and I too seem to be anonymous guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:23 PM

As I said, the British public spoke through their elected representatives and the democratic process was followed and the vote was YES. Why can't you accept this ? The British public want a bombing campaign, I know I am jolly well pleased to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:38 PM

Grant Shapps used to be my MP and I was invited to one of his fund raising dinners. Some mistake, surely...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:38 PM

steve, i don't think 'Guest' (or anyone) really believes this shite. he is just trying to wind up people who prefer to think about these issues a bit more carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:32 PM

Well we can all be grateful that you're not in charge of anything, can't we, Mr Anonymous. Brave fighting talk from an internet coward. Ironic, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:22 PM

Corbyn is no party leader, look at the man, he looks like someone living on the streets, he says he has principles yet old film footage shows him as an unrepentant red. Now he is going back on every value he once held. The Labour party will remove him soon enough.

David is doing a grand job and the bombing is necessary to defend UK interests throughout the world.

I support ground troops going in and dealing with these terrorists, if the terrorists get support among civilians, then yes collateral damage is acceptable.

David has the support and the will to deal with terrorists. The British public has spoken and spoken loudly.

An intense campaign is the only language these terrorists understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:17 PM

I doubt very much whether he will be the leader in 2020. Whether he is or he isn't, this in-fighting instigated by people who can't accept that they've lost is fatal. All the time this is happening we have slimy little swines like Grant Shapps and that utter twat who's in charge of the NHS and that bloody idiot who used to be Justice Secretary (who's made even Gove look sensible for Christ's sake) managing to avoid the the flak that they so fully deserve. It would be funny if it wasn't so bloody tragic. And I like Jeremy. At least he's not a smooth-talking politico automaton who's been trained on spin and bugger all else.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:10 PM

Jeremy Corbyn has a speech mannerism that could prove fatal: he is very fond of the construct 'I believe X because of y'. Which is great, we need people to have reasons for what they say. But what happens is the media drop the rationale and pump up the first bit and bingo, we have a Jeremy who is against shooting to kill terrorists (not one who is unhappy because of the escalation it can easily bring). And a Jeremy who regrets bin laden was shot, not someone who thinks it would have been better if he is brought to trial.

The damage for those has been done, and will as you say come up in the next election. But he really does have to find a way of phrasing the same thing which is not so easily turned against him.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:29 PM

That is not the point. Of course MPs are rugged individualists but they also need to keep an eye on the main prize, which is kicking out the Tories. Jeremy Corbyn is already being attacked gleefully by everyone except us party members. What the Blair/Brownites are doing is disastrous. Four and a half years down the road, the Tories will be reminding us with great joy how Labour tore themselves asunder in 2015. It needed a lot less than that last time, a stupid note left on a desk five years earlier, remember? As I said, the Blair/Brownites lost us two elections in a row. I reckon even Teribus would agree with that. What makes them think that the current undermining of Corbyn could even remotely be a winning strategy is anyone's guess. They don't know HOW to win, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 11:56 AM

Funny. I thought the Labour MPs were elected by their constituents.

Perhaps they should do as they are told by their leader? There used to be a backbencher who put his own views before the party whip. Corbyn I believe his name was. Good job he never stood for leader because how could he demand the support he never bothered giving himself?

Oh..

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 11:51 AM

IS is a Sunni cult and the vast majority of its victims were Shia Muslims.
The war in Syria is essentially a continuation of the Sunni/Shia conflict that began centuries ago and for which the West is entirely blameless.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 11:46 AM

As far as I know Darius, Sennacherib and Tiglathpileser aren't currently bombing markets in each other's cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 10:48 AM

The link to me fails to take sufficient account of the longstanding divisions in the Islamic world, between Shia and Sunni, and various subdivisions.

He doesn't cover Darius, Sennacherib or Tiglathpileser either, Dave, but as far as the more recent history, its a pretty good summation.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 10:09 AM

Well that's right. And they're arrogant enough to have forgotten that they managed to lost us two elections in a row. They've probably lost us the next one already.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:29 AM

There are a group of Blairites who are trying to undermine Mr Corbyn
They do not belong in a Labour Party which elected Mr Corbyn with a record mandate. These people are a "third column" in the Labour Party and Mr Corbyn is wrong to expect them to change.
The Blairites are ambitious career politicians who see their hopes of personal advancement and their seat on the gravy train scuppered.

If they are unwilling to remove themselves. they will cause severe damage to the new style of politics which Mr Corbyn is promoting and if they win we shall find ourselves back in the tired old circus and the wealth gap will keep growing.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 06:24 AM

I'm with Dave the G: What is decided is decided, and there's not a lot in the short term to do but hope for the best and monitor things. But I have to say I have smelt a very strong whiff of propaganda already.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 06:08 AM

As Cameron has declared he doesn't want another term as PM,
what job is he actually angling for next with this demonstration of macho tory war mongering ?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 06:04 AM

The link to me fails to take sufficient account of the longstanding divisions in the Islamic world, between Shia and Sunni, and various subdivisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 05:30 AM

David Cameron said this morning, "It won't be long until me see results of our actions" Was he talking about in the UK ? Poke a dog with a stick and see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 05:23 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 05:22 PM

What exactly in the link - statemant and discussion thereof - do you disagree with, Hi?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 05:17 PM

I read the link,it cannot be explained so easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM

The link is one man's opinion which is worth about as much as yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:51 PM

Didja read the link, Hi, or are ya just shootin' from the lip?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:43 PM

This cannot be explained in one sentence. It is simple minded to think that it can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 01:37 PM

We'll let Teribus answer that, he has more expertise in these matters than everyone put together.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 01:27 PM

Democracy at work. Our elected representatives have made their decision and regardless of what we think of it, this it what happens. I still believe a free vote was the right thing to do and that the MPs have voted with their consciences. I really do hope they are right and that it does work but I have reservations. Can anyone explain how it will work this time when it never has before? What will be different between this bombing campaign and those elsewhere in the middle east?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 12:36 PM

Remind me. Is Assad a terrorist leader of a rogue state still, or is he a key ally and link in ensuring our oil thirst remains sated?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 12:32 PM

One Sentance Explanation of what caused ISIS

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:45 AM

"them alone to get on with their planning and training and we may yet have our own 9/11 scale attack."

They could be anywhere though, they're probably not sitting planning their next outrage from inside Syria or Iraq but in one of our cities. After all, they're not so stupid as to wait to get bombed even if our politicians are stupid enough to think they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:28 AM

Not if we are bombing the hell out of their training camps

One word, T-Bird: Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:08 AM

I did reply point by point, Teribus, but thought better of it. We will let everyone form their own view.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 10:48 AM

"One was that the speaker rejected the claim that this would make UK more of a target, because we were already a prime target. Which is clearly nonsense because it is the kind of thing you can always have more of. There were, it seems, seven threats against the UK prevented last year. With more people committed to it, it could be seventeen, or seventy."

The UK and the USA have been regarded as being prime targets since 1970 - nothing to do with Afghanistan and nothing to do with Iraq. That is the reality and the threat intensified as various Arab States learned to live with their neighbours and Arafat started feeling the cold. We "the west" were regarded as being an easy target, our legal system, our concern for humanity, our tolerance and respect for the rights of the individual are all seen as being major weaknesses.

The prevention of seven attacks with none actually blossoming into fruition means that the attacks planned were all thwarted. Follow Corbyn's lead and we leave them alone to get on with their planning and training and we may yet have our own 9/11 scale attack. Cameron has taken the other option, attack them and harry them, give them something to think about - make them nervously peer over their shoulders and sneak looks round corners as they will not know where the next blow might fall - far better to have your enemy do that than hand him the initiative to strike as and when he wants.


"So could this action persuade Daesh to dedicate more planners to attacking the UK? Clearly it could.

Not if we are bombing the hell out of their training camps.

"Oddly enough the best reason to think it might not came from a reporter in Damascus who said there had not been a mention of the upcoming British vote in any of the papers and no-one she spoke knew there was a vote. It suggests a level of indifference from the Syrian viewpoint which is at odds with our self-importance."

Depends on whether or not one is naive enough to believe that a free press exists in Assad's capital city that would be permitted to print or report news from round the world uncensored.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 10:29 AM

You must read the whole sentence, guest. Of course a bomb can do damage. The sentence talked about whether that damage was enough to outweigh any propaganda value, and that we don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 09:35 AM

but whether bombing will succeed in reducing their capabilities

It already has.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 09:04 AM

Oh dear. I have to agree with Akenhateon - just this once. But then I also agree (just this once) with John McCain that the UK contribution is but a token.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 08:59 AM

but whether bombing will succeed in reducing their capabilities

Run that one past General Curtis LeMay.....

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 08:16 AM

Us?

The day I feel empathy with some of the confused hatred you come out with is the day I see my lips together.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 07:43 AM

Well said DMcG.   I also thought Benn's speech was short on facts and brim full of emotional rhetoric.

Of course this had nothing to do with saving lives and everything to do with Mr Benn's bid to save the Labour Party from socialism under his leadership.
The whole sorry mess is about constructing a political coalition to oppose Russia and the Assad regime when the time comes.

Its Iraq and Libya all over again.....how fucking stupid are we to continually vote for this circus....the weeping mp's, the crocodile tears, the rhetoric straight out of some bloody TV soap opera.

Will we ever grow up and realise what the bastards are doing to us?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 05:11 AM

We've been trying to impose our will on the middle east since the 11th Century and all we've managed to do is to alienate them. Lasting change only comes from within, it cannot be imposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 04:19 AM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:26 AM

Max Hastings on Newsnight said that Hillary Benn's speech was all passion and little argument. And that quotation is a good example: full of passion and determination. Which is no bad thing.

Except that no-one in the house on any side disagreed with him, apart for that last couple of sentences. The question was not on whether to fight Daesh but whether bombing will succeed in reducing their capabilities more than it increases their ability to use this propaganda to recruit even more disaffected people world-wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:15 AM

"And we are here faced by fascists. Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they are superior to every single one of us in this chamber tonight, and all of the people that we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold our values in contempt. They hold our belief in tolerance and decency in contempt. They hold our democracy, the means by which we will make our decision tonight, in contempt. And what we know about fascists is that they need to be defeated. And it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialists and trade unionists and others joined the International Brigade in the 1930s to fight against Franco. It's why this entire House stood up against Hitler and Mussolini. It is why our party has always stood up against the denial of human rights and for justice. And my view, Mr Speaker, is that we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria. And that is why I ask my colleagues to vote for the motion tonight." Hilary Benn 2015-12-02

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 02:59 AM

I spent a lot of time - and I mean about six hours! - listening to the debate. It was, I would say, the best I have heard from Parliament with many people clearly having to tried to think it through carefully. But very soon key phrases and ideas started popping up which immediately said how people would be voting even before they had declared. One was that the speaker rejected the claim that this would make UK more of a target, because we were already a prime target. Which is clearly nonsense because it is the kind of thing you can always have more of. There were, it seems, seven threats against the UK prevented last year. With more people committed to it, it could be seventeen, or seventy. And obviously the larger the number the greater the chance one gets through. So could this action persuade Daesh to dedicate more planners to attacking the UK? Clearly it could.

Oddly enough the best reason to think it might not came from a reporter in Damascus who said there had not been a mention of the upcoming British vote in any of the papers and no-one she spoke knew there was a vote. It suggests a level of indifference from the Syrian viewpoint which is at odds with our self-importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 02:59 AM

So Cameron has got his 'Churchillian' moment! Hurrah!

Apart from that, he hasn't got any sort of coherent plan but, gosh, he's now got lots of opportunities to talk tough and look determined and heroic! Perhaps pictures of him in a headscarf will appear in the Sun under the headline, "Gotcha!!"

And, of course, when the whole sorry mess disintegrates into complete chaos he'll get away with it (although lots of innocent non-combatants in Syria and the UK won't). I suppose there's a faint chance that, about 40 years down the line, some latter-day Chilcott will reveal what an utterly clueless, opportunistic, cynical prat he is but he probably won't care by then.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 02:57 AM

"Well let's not start that again." - Which begs the obvious question - if that is the case why bring it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 02:43 AM

Yeah let's invite Israel to the party. Schools and hospitals are their speciality.

Come to think about it, if we capture any ISIS "soldiers" we can always turn them over to their paymasters cum our allies Saudi Arabia for ritual crucifixion.

Whilst not happy at the outcome, the parliamentary debate yesterday was s step towards democracy in our democratic system where we saw arguments for and against followed by a vote where some MPs from both parties made their decision based on what they heard.

Of course, the disgraceful behaviour of the prime minister was a stain on a system we should be proud of. Calling opposition to his view "terrorist sympathy" is bad enough but coming from a criminal who authorised the assassination of UK citizens and then boasted about it....

You don't beat terrorists by sinking to their level.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 08:39 PM

Well let's not start that again. Suffice to say that the first casualty of war is...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 08:17 PM

Over 1,600 missions flown by the RAF against IS targets weapons released on only 382 of those - indicates a certain degree of restraint.

In Gaza Hamas hid in schools, hospitals, UN Aid Centres and from those positions attacked Israel and the IDF - under those circumstances if somebody shoots at you and continues to shoot at you - you shoot back.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 07:59 PM

That was meant for Teribus, though it sort of fits with your post too.