BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 03:49 AM

All conjecture, if you must quote our cap doffing lackey in chief.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 04:44 AM

I believe that Jack and
Jim must have attended the same school of history!

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 04:44 AM

I'm fully aware of the veracity of both the miners' shooting being an unreported miners story - I am last aware that it might just be based on fact - it certainly is not beyond the realms of possibility - one miner was reported to have been battoned to death by a policeman (maybe one of your historians can show that this didn't happen)
I am also aware that the Duke of Wellington Story is an urban myth (I actually researched the story) - but it is an indication of the unpopularity of a despicably arrogant man, which is why I put it up - and, as someone has pointed out, his heirs were no better - it seems to be a family trait.
What I am most aware of is that whenever any whiff of criticism of "our betters" come sup on this forum, you will leap up like a cat with a flea up its arse to tell us that they ever did it.
I suggest that you would do this far more efficiently if you didn't try to talk down to people from the holes you persist in digging for yourself.
On the other hand, it is useful to have a living example of the contempt those you defend hold the rest of us in, in your own behaviour.
Keep it up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:05 AM

There is virtually no evidence to support your claim Jim. None, zero , nil. This is how you have always abused history, trying to manipulate it in order fit your version pf things. But you have no credibility on the subject of hostory as your posts on this thread clearly show.
    Being critical of what you refer you as " our betters" is not the problem Jim. The problem is your ignoring of any facts that do not support your agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:21 AM

HiLo has hit the nail fairly and squarely on the head - It is not to the defence of anyone that I leap, it is to correct the things that people state that are incorrect.

What's the bet in 12 months time if Churchill is mentioned on another thread from Jom we will get:

He's the man who ordered the shooting of the Tonypandy miners - EVEN ALTHOUGH HE IS PERFECTLY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT NO MINERS WERE SHOT BY ANYBODY. That is the trouble with Jom - he simply just does not listen and he does not investigate to check that just on the off chance he may be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:22 AM

"One miner, Samuel Rhys, died of head injuries, said to have been inflicted by a policeman's baton.[8] Authorities had reinforced the town with 400 policemen, one company of the Lancashire Fusiliers, billeted at Llwynypia, and the squadron of the 18th Hussars"


Taken from Wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:35 AM

Well done Raggytash:

1: The miner who died had a name
2: The person responsible for his death was known - and guess what it wasn't a soldier.
3: The miner was not shot
4: Where he died is known
5: The soldiers were "on hand" and available to be used if needed - THEY WEREN'T.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:52 AM

This what I have against "liberals", they live in a land of political myths....they expect to be "granted" everything with no input from themselves, or thoughts on the costs or effects of their "wants".   most are well heeled professionals or upper class students easing their consciences.

Of course they have persuaded themselves that they are socialists up for the revolution.....in reality they are the biggest impediment to social and political progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:10 AM

Akenaton, the biggest impediment to social progress is the corporate kleptocracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:18 AM

About those soldiers who WEREN'T used:

"At 1:20 am on 9 November, orders were sent to Colonel Currey at Cardiff, to despatch a squadron of the 18th Hussars to reach Pontypridd at 8:15 am.[4]:[p122] Upon arrival, one contingent patrolled Aberaman and another was sent to Llwynypia, where it patrolled all day.[4]:[p122] Returning to Pontypridd at night, the troops arrived at Porth as a disturbance was breaking out, and maintained order until the arrival of the Metropolitan Police"

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:29 AM

The shootings of Miners at Tonypandy story seems to have come from a documentary novel written by a trades union organiser.
The piece below comes from Wikepedia at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonypandy_riots


Purported eyewitness accounts of alleged shootings persisted and were relayed by word of mouth. There are no records of any shots being fired by troops. The only recorded death was Samuel Rhys. In the autobiographical 'documentary novel' Cwmardy, contemporary communist trade union organiser Lewis Jones presents a stylistically romantic, but closely detailed, account of the riots and their agonising domestic and social consequences. In the chapter Soldiers are sent to the Valley, he narrates a fictional incident, in which eleven strikers are killed by two volleys of rifle fire in the town square, after which the miners adopt a grimly retaliatory stance. In this account, the end of the strike is hastened by organised terror directed at mine managers, leading to introduction of a minimum-wage act by the government – hailed as a victory by the strikers.[9]

A more official version states that "The strike finally ended in August 1911, with the workers forced to accept the 2s 3d per ton negotiated by William Abraham MP prior to the strike ... the workers actually returning to work on the first Monday in September",[2] ten months after the strike began and twelve months after the lock-out which started the confrontation.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:33 AM

Dave....corporate capitalism is of course anti social, but as we do not appear to wish to address the effects of the capitalist system in decline, we are stuck with it.

Any alternative ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:16 AM

"Purported eyewitness accounts of alleged shootings persisted and were relayed by word of mouth. There are no records of any shots being fired by troops."

That sounds very similar to something else that was being discussed in another thread - you're wasting your time though if you think Jom will believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Stu
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:28 AM

"YOUR political bent is supposed to not like him, and like a good little sheep, you just follow the 'party line"

I can see how it might look like that to someone lacking the initimate and extensive knowledge of handed-down first-hand accounts of family who fought the first of the blitz whilst Nazi bombes rained down on them, were nearly killed by German fighters strafing civilians, who can remember the sounds of anti-aircraft guns at the end of the street and the drone of doodlebugs as they sputtered overhead. Perhaps you don't understand the sacrifices made those who died in the cold waters of the North Sea whilst our island stood alone. We know the contribution Churchill made, we were the families who acted on it and paid the price.

So grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:28 AM

Re the accusation thatChurchill had all of his books ghost written by Arthur Bryant...Absolute rubbish. Where did That come from? I have read all of ABS books and all of Churchills, no comparison whatever. I never cease to wonder where people get this kind of tosh. What is your source for this Jack ?

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:45 AM

I'm more than happy to accept the explanation Derrick gives of the origins of the story - but the fact that it was circulated and continues as a myth shows an awareness on the pert of people that the powers that be were prepared to any force considered necessary to suppress action judged to be detrimental to the interests of the state.
Suppression of workers action with violence has been a well-established part of our history since the formation of Trades Unions - right up to the Miners Strike where Thatcher showed she was happy to use the Police Force as her own private army to suppress the miners action - and that has been the case with all right wing politicians in Britain.
Thatcher's most telling moment was her defence of mass-murderer Augusto Pinochet, who she described as a hero of democracy after his having overseen the torture, rape and murder of thousands of his opponents - her message was loud and clear - she would have done similarly if she thought she would have gotten away with it.
The British people fought hard to win the rights and the protection from the excesses of the system we live under, but, as we have seen by the loss of many other rights that have been won - they are quite likely to be swept aside if people take their eye off the ball - and there are always those among us ready to support the taking away of them as 'the State can necer be wrong'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 08:15 AM

Jim, you have been proven wrong in your statement regarding the shooting of miners, you have been proven to accept myth as fact regarding Wellington. you simply cannot accept any history that does not agree with skewed view of the past.
   Margaret McMillan, Avery well respected Canadian historian, has written an excellent book ,TheUse And Abuse of History. I recommend it to you in the hope that you will learn something from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 08:43 AM

Lilo
I have accepted what Derrick says about the shooting of the miners and am happy to do so as it was put reasonably and with evidence to back it up, and not in the sneery manner you and yours choose to make your argument - personally, I come here to learn from what people have to say - that's why I take part in these discussions.
I have explained my foreknowledge of the Wellington story - you choose to use it as a ploy to avoid what I have said - how about you responding to the points I have made about the proneness of the establishment to use the army and the police on workers when it suits them -
I seem to remember you're a Thatcherite, - how about explaining her take on 'democracy' when it comes to worker's rights
Won't hold my breath - promise
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 08:52 AM

I am not and never was a Thatcherite, you remember incorrectly. I do not know what you mean by you and yours, and I do not believe that I make comments in a sneery manner. I have not avoided what you have said, I have disputed the efficacy of it, nothing more.
I did not respond to your comments about the "establishment" using the army on workers because the topic of this thread does not embrace that issue. Nor does it include the views of Margaret Thatcher. What IS evident here, is that you were wrong about the shooting and wrong about Wellington. You don't listen Jim and you don't appear to come here to learn. It seems you come to impose an erroneous version of history. Again, I recommend MS MCMillan to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 09:02 AM

What is your source for this Jack ?

I believe the source of all of Jack's opinions and positions is from the Socialist Worker's Daily or some such other propaganda rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 09:20 AM

Re the accusation thatChurchill had all of his books ghost written by Arthur Bryant...Absolute rubbish.

Not all of them (I think his first was published before Bryant was born) - the history of WW2 specifically.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 09:21 AM

And yours is where, GUEST, the Mail or the Telegraph?

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 09:24 AM

you simply cannot accept any history that does not agree with skewed view of the past. Perhaps this applies to Teribus and Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 09:25 AM

What is the source for your information Jack ?

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 09:41 AM

"I do not believe that I make comments in a sneery manner."
You wrote this
"his is how you have always abused history, trying to manipulate it in order fit your version pf things. But you have no credibility on the subject of history as your posts on this thread clearly show.
Being critical of what you refer you as " our betters" is not the problem Jim. The problem is your ignoring of any facts that do not support your agenda."
It is both sneery and grossly inaccurate - I have never at any time "abused history", though I may have been wrong and when it is pointed out, have been happy to be corrected.
I leave the abusing of history to those who don't read, have admitted that they don't and are not even interested in the subject at hand, yet persist in their arguments.
Happy to respond to any examples of my "abusing" history if you care to provide them though
In my opinion, Thatcher and her abuse of democracy is relevant to a discussion on a statesmen who showed the same disregard for peoples' rights
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 09:41 AM

No, it does not Guest. They both present reasonable views of history.Keith is mostly attacked for being Keith, not for bad history. Teribus also presents well researched history. Jim and Jack do not, as proven by this thread. I suspect Guest, that you have a flimsy knowledge of the subject yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM

If you wish to discuss Mrs. Thatcher Jim..start a new thread. Disagreeing with you is not being sneery. There are two Glaring examples of your abuse of history in this thread.
You are often off topic Jim. And you seem unable to recognize when you are wrong. It would be good of you to stick to THIS thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 10:13 AM

Hilo, Neither Teribus or Keith accept any history that does not conform to their pre-judged positions. Keith in particular has dismissed historians as not living, left-wing, not published in major bookshops to name but three of the numerous reasons he has given. There are many more. He has quoted Jeremy Paxman and Ian Hislop to support his arguments although neither are noted historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 10:20 AM

You have no right to decide what is off topic - you are entitled to express an opinion - no more, jut as I am entitled to disregard it if I disagree.
Repeating the accusation without qualifying it "butters no parsnips" as the saying goes.
Wot Guest has just said - couldn't agree more and plenty of evidence of abuse of history on thread running at present - historians are for those who read.
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 10:20 AM

Keith is attacked for being Keith, not for his knowledge of history. I cannot comment on your knowledge of the subject as you have presented none. Teribus presents very solid and well researched historical debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 10:32 AM

Miners were shot on the orders of Winston Chrurchill. Untrue, abuse of History. Mythical story of Wellington, untrue, abuse of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 11:23 AM

"Miners were shot on the orders of Winston Chrurchill. Untrue, abuse of History."
Not true - an acknowledged mistake.
This is the umpteenth time you have used this as part of your argument.
If there's one thing I dislike more than someone who never apologises , it is someone who ignores the fact that a mistake has been acknowledged and continues to use that mistake as a substitute for honest argument.
You did so over my Wellington story earlier despite the fact that I had fully explained my position on it.
Once can be considered a mistake, twice simple stupidity, continual distortion simple dishonesty.
"Keith is attacked for being Keith,"
Keith is attacked for his blatant and continuing abuse of history - you are attacking me for making a mistake I have apologised for yet defending somebody who had developed an abuse of history via historians he has not read into an art form
I suggest we let this lie and let the discussion on dear old Winnie continue and his democratic ways continue.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 11:43 AM

Reasons for dismissing historians: Dead, personal axe to grind, very right wing, revolutionary activist, old school, they have to be living, they have to be living and working today, not published in the past twenty years, have to be available in real bookshops, only available on-line, fraudulent, vulgar, not a leading historian, out of date. Need I go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 11:57 AM

Stu: (quoting GfS) ""YOUR political bent is supposed to not like him, and like a good little sheep, you just follow the 'party line"

Stu: "I can see how it might look like that to someone lacking the initimate and extensive knowledge of handed-down first-hand accounts of family who fought the first of the blitz whilst Nazi bombes rained down on them, were nearly killed by German fighters strafing civilians, who can remember the sounds of anti-aircraft guns at the end of the street and the drone of doodlebugs as they sputtered overhead. Perhaps you don't understand the sacrifices made those who died in the cold waters of the North Sea whilst our island stood alone. We know the contribution Churchill made, we were the families who acted on it and paid the price.
So grow up."

So, you were hoping the Nazis won????
Figures!! "...political party of the mass movement known as NATIONAL SOCIALISM. Under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, the party came to power in Germany in 1933 and governed by totalitarian methods until 1945."--Encyclopedia Britannica

You 'So-called liberals' are a pain in the ass!!!!!

Think about it.....if capable..

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 01:21 PM

Interesting mental leaps from Guest from Sanity.

He wouldn't be a foreigner perchance?

Thought so. Explains it.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 03:20 PM

Who?

GfS

P.S. That's how much sense you made.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Stu,in the ether
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 04:34 PM

So, you were hoping the Nazis won????

That's pretty low and insulting by anyone's standards. I'm sure the mods will let this stand, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:39 PM

I admire and respect him

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:58 PM

Hilo, I think we see through your hate filled divisive comments and we are tired of them and disgusted that you would belittle other members of this forum to put forward your own petty views. You contribute nothing here, you snipe, belittle and denigrate , nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:26 PM

I'm not in Greg's or anyone else's team and I speak for myself, but, if Joe Offer can privately tell ME that I'm a troll fer chrissake, I reckon it's time that this HiLo person, whoever it is, is called out. His posts have no content and he snipes extremely negatively at anyone who doesn't align with his own narrow set of values, whatever they are. That is not good enough on what is supposed to be a discussion forum. I'm trying very hard to couch this in terms of factual statement and not a personal attack, hard though it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:34 PM

It was in Liverpool that 2 strikers were shot, although not personally by Mr Churchill as far as I know.

He did however want to take charge at the Seige of Sidney Street, ordering up infantry and artillery, and ordering the fire brigade not to rescue anyone from the burning building. This was much derided by the working class - 'couldn't even catch Peter the Painter'.

He was an excellent writer, both of speeches and books, but would never acknowledge any help he got, such as the young team of researchers who helped with his 'History of the English Speaking Peoples'.

He always considered himself a 'great man', and often looked down on others. Today he would be considered a racist and a bigot, but that was then. In my mind he doesnt qualify as Britain's Greatest, unless the category is Drinker.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:47 PM

Hi Greg, Up to your usual high standards of debate I see ,

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:50 PM

Fly in the Chardonnay is there Steve ..or is it a bee in the bonnet?

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:50 PM

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:59 PM

Christ, Shaw, you are a case.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 08:06 PM

Hi Greg, Up to your usual high standards of debate I see ,

Ah, but Hi- I'm quoting YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 08:09 PM

Did you mean "antichrist Shaw?" Try not to confuse your fellow deludees.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 10:10 PM

Stu: "'So, you were hoping the Nazis won????'"

"That's pretty low and insulting by anyone's standards. I'm sure the mods will let this stand, though."

Not at all...Germany was defeated...can't say the same for the Nazis...you know, 'The National Socialist Party'.....but don't feel alone, the U.S.S.R., though at war with Nazi Germany, were allegedly socialists as well...as in United SOCIALIST Soviet Republic....but then you'll say, "Well those were a different type of socialism, than the RIGHT one!..my kind!!"

...and besides, if it wasn't for Churchill, and up to Chamberlain, you'd all be English speaking Nazis.Is that really your beef with Churchill??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 03:52 AM

The UK was saved in WWII by Operation Barbarossa, not Churchill. The sacrifices of the people of the USSR were very great, and they saved our bacon. Not much thanks did they get for it afterwards though. Had it not been for Operation Barbarossa, and to a lesser extent Pearl Harbour, both actions of the Axis powers, we would have been overwhelmed. And it would have been Churchill's fault for not listening to Chamberlain, who understood our weakness and wanted peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 04:41 AM

It was Chamberlain who declared war on Germany (though not on Hitler's ally Stalin) in 1939.
Was it a mistake?