BS: Pronunciation of 'The'

Subject: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Kampervan
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 04:03 AM

I grew up pronouncing 'the' (to rhyme with 'duh')except on the occasions when it preceded a vowel sound in which case it was pronounced as though it rhymed with 'dee'.

Now, increasingly, especially on the television, presenters are only using the 'duh' version. The result sounds quite awkward. Has there been a change in the way that English is taught?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 04:31 AM

there was a pop group called the "The The" - how did the yoof of the day pronounce that?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:01 AM

'The' also rhymes with 'dee' in front of both consonants and vowel sounds to add emphasis.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:11 AM

Weir thee lives, mebbe petal.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:19 AM

There's that telly weatherman, Tomasz Schafernaker, who always says it the "duh" way. That's quite interesting, because I had lot of Polish mates when I was at school, and they definitely had a tendency to say it that way every time. Slightly disconnected, you reminded me of Jonathan Ross, interviewing The Edge from U2, asking him if it was OK if he called him "The."

Don't get me started on people who say "agayne..."

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:49 AM

Wasn't it you who used to address me as "The" when I used my old 'MtheGM' forum-name, Steve; and I would call you "Ven" in reply.

When 'the' is pronounced with a long ē before a vowel, have you all noticed that a sort of bridging 'y' sound comes in?: "the only way" tends to come out as sounding like "thee·y·only way". So "You know that was thuh last thing on my mind'" sings Mr Paxton; but "Thee·y·only way is Essex" is the name of the tv 'reality'-soap.

That's how it sounds to the·y·ear IMO, anyhow!

And sometimes a 'w' comes in instead; when I asked above "have you all...", if read aloud it would come out as "have you wall...", innit!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:43 AM

Never file everything to be saved under "the", as in "the kampervan file"

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:45 AM

If "z" were pronounced "zed", how would "the" be pronounced?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:47 AM

It is pronounced zed, Ed. End of. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:50 AM

I remember Basil Fawlty spluttering over "you wall" in an episode of Fawlty Towers to great comic effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:57 AM

I've found the bit. Here it is:

German Guest: Can we help you?

Basil Fawlty: Oh, you speak English.

German Guest: Of course.

Basil Fawlty: Ah, wonderful! WUNDERBAR! Ahh! Please allow me to introduce myself, I am the owner of Fawlty Towers. And may I welcome your war... your war... you wall... you all... you all, and hope that your stay will be a happy one. Now, would you like to eat first, or would you like a drink before the war... AHH! Er... trespassers will be tied up with piano wire... SORRY, SORRY!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:00 AM

And you called me Hen, Michael, not Ven. I'm more of a Hawking than a Gerrard, though an admirer of both.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:25 AM

Indeed -- I remember asking if you were a Hawking or a Gerrard; sorry to have misrecalled the answer, me old Hen!

Cluck-cluck as ever was...

≈The≈

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:32 AM

Pronouncing "the" as "thee" all the time sounds stilted, unnatural, and a bit condescending. George W. Bush had a tendency to do so in his public speeches, and it made him sound as if he was addressing a group of kindergartners. Perhaps always pronouncing it as "thuh" is a subconscious (or conscious) attempt to avoid sounding like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:51 AM

"When I was doing preliminary research on this case, I remembered the story about Tlazolteotl.' [Mulder] glanced at the old archaeologist. 'Am I pronouncing it correctly? It sounds like I'm swallowing a turtle." 
― Kevin J. Anderson

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:19 AM

MGM Lion: I agree about the subtle w in 'Have you all', but I don't hear a y in 'thee only way'. Not that other people can't say it that way...

Kampervan, I doubt if any school teachers are teaching kids to talk like your TV announcers. Saying 'thuh' before a vowel takes extra work and time, and it's ugly. I doubt if it will catch on.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:42 AM

I think this is what the schwa was invented for...

Th' major thing, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:49 AM

Try saying "the only way" aloud, Leeneia. If you are to avoid a momentary awkward hiatus, surely you must articulate a slight 'y' as a sort of liaison?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:53 AM

You can only do it if you speak slowly or do a tiny glottal stop. A hiatus by any other name. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:53 AM

... just as that penultimate 'i' serves at the end of your name!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:08 AM

In Eberdeen 'ey don't pronounce 'e "th".

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:58 AM

"If the word following ""the starts with a consonant sound, you pronounce  "the" as "thuh." If the word following "the" starts with a vowel sound, you pronounce "the" as "thee."

Source, Grammar Girl (who could reasonably claim to know grammar better than a person called grammar girl?).
:)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 12:09 PM

"I'll write the first sentence in English and the second sentence will be nonsense translated to Russian, to make the ultimate "non sequitur." 
― Jarod Kintz

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 12:30 PM

It's not a matter of grammar, Ed T. That happens to be an accurate description of the pronunciation of the word in the different contexts of initial letters of the succeeding words -- phonetics, not grammar; usage, not 'rule'. The 'source' you demand lies in one's own eardrums.

I mean, take your own following quote: read it aloud and you will hear "thuh first", "thuh second", "thee ultimate". If you have any other phonetic result, I will give you a nice big juicy red .

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 01:01 PM

Just miss it out. Us northerners do, tha knows. Saves controversy. "Ah'm just off ter catch bus..." Or shorten it. "Ah'm just off ter t'Liverpool game fer t'see 'em slaughter United..."

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 01:08 PM

Phononics, not grammar.nof course. I was a silly bunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:50 PM

So, in France is it pronounced "zee", dee, or "da" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: BobL
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 03:12 AM

Just to throw a bit of mud into the waters: my singing teacher taught me to pronounce "thuh" as "thu" with a short 'u', as in "thus". Only for singing purposes, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 04:05 AM

of course we could pronounce it thorn

(never ye)



I'll get me coat.................

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:47 AM

Then of course, we throw in 'the hotel'. Is it 'thuh Hotel' or 'thee 'otel'? Or (shudder) 'thuh 'otel' or 'thee Hotel'...?

I will fetch my outer garment....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 07:14 AM

Two French guys were talking in English. One asked how many months start with the letter D? The other guy replied three, December, de month before December and de month after.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 08:13 AM

It's th' 'otel, Liz.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: PHJim
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 10:20 AM

I thought I always followed the "thuh before consonants, thee before vowels" method of pronouncing "the", but my wife reminded me that when I was reading stories to my kids, when I was finished, I'd often say,"Thuh end."

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 01:26 PM

A 'otel, or an otel?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 02:38 PM

"Don't get me started on people who say "agayne..."

So most of the people in the central belt of Scotland - "Auch no agayne Ma".

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 02:53 PM

that's nae English, its lalland Scorts, laddee.

and we haven't started ont' glottal stop, as it were.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 05:58 PM

Well give the buggers independence then, Teribus. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 10:56 PM

And how about the two pronunciations of "a"? Seems some folk, especially when orating, often when clearly uncomfortable with public speaking, shift æ [first sound in English 'ash'] to ā [like Canadian 'eh'] in an attempt to sound formal, but wind up sounding stilted. Wish I could point to some examples ~ Harper was guilty of it …
my little rant | excuse the thread drift and
keep on pickin'
dennis

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 16 - 04:45 AM

Tha thes them as thes the.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Feb 16 - 04:49 AM

Nay — tha thees them as thees thee ---

dun't thee!?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Feb 16 - 05:07 AM

Re 'a', drawn attention to by Dennis [Dr Word] a few posts above:-

I disagree that the normal pronunciation of it as an article is equivalent to the first sound in 'ash'. It is rather that indefinite sound which, as Bernard Shaw pointed out, is perhaps the most common vowel in English but has no letter to represent it. In phonetics it is generally represented by a reversed 'e'[ɘ], and in writing can be represented by any of the 5 vowels, as in formal, bitten, infinite, bacon, focus; but has no actual character of its own to represent it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Feb 16 - 05:34 AM

& re pronunciation of 'again' as agayne, to which exception was recently taken by a poster: although I usually pronounce it as approximating to 'uhg-en', I should be sorry to lose that great limerick about

...the young man of Bahrein
Who always was sick in the train
Not once but again
And again and again
And again and again and again

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Feb 16 - 09:47 AM

Oops! Sorry about the italical dire-rear!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: Airymouse
Date: 12 Feb 16 - 05:45 PM

The usual mispronunciation of "the" occurs when it is spelled "ye." I remember seeing a movie, "The Dead Poets Society," in which the main character, who was supposed to love poetry, made this mistake in the line, "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may."
Off Topic: Name other movies in which the actor playing the main character mispronounces a word, the main character would surely know. Here are two egregious examples: Molitor playing Pi in "Life of Pi" tripped up by "orangutan." and Cumberbatch playing Alan Turing in "The Imitation Game" tripped up by "Euler."

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Feb 16 - 06:24 AM

The first 'ye' in that line of the Herrick is ambiguous. One would need a C17 text to ascertain whether he wrote [obs letter] 'thorn'- ƿ - + e to mean "the", or whether he did mean the second person plural as a reinforcement to the imperative 'gather', as one might say "You mind what you are saying", altho the first 'you' is merely emphatic rather than integral to the meaning. Have you had access to one to check this, Airymouse? Or do you have a ref to any exposition of the question anywhere?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Feb 16 - 06:31 AM

... and if, as Chambers pints out, the 'thorn' letter had become obsolete by then so that early printers used 'y' to represent it because it was one which 'their founts lacked', then it seems to me that it musat remain an ope q

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'The'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Feb 16 - 06:33 AM

-uestion as to whether Herrick meant 'the' or 'ye'.

Why will posts sometimes take prematurely like that. Bloody irritating!