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BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Raggytash Date: 05 May 16 - 03:04 PM Are you really THAT thick ?? Don't bother to answer we already know the answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 May 16 - 03:14 PM More personal attack without reference to the issues. Please stop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Raggytash Date: 05 May 16 - 04:01 PM The issue was mentioned in my previous post. Perhaps if you didn't try and twist other people words we wouldn't have this problem. The ball in this case is firmly in your court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 May 16 - 04:06 PM Keith, bobad calls people Jew haters. Open your eyes, please. No-one is picking on him. Just look at his posts in this thread. Bobad/Guest picks on anyone who even remotely criticises Israel or defends Palestinians. That is not debate, Keith. As I said, knowing you, it's hardly surprising that you side with him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: bobad Date: 05 May 16 - 04:37 PM Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism, and blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world. The Times of Israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 May 16 - 05:16 PM Yeah,sure. You're sussed. A period of silence from you would be nice. How about five years, Guest? |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM Steve, just answer his points if you can. You can not silence anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM Steve, just answer his points if you can. You can not silence anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 16 - 05:27 AM Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism" The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore. While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement. "The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism." "blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world." Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today. If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them. If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice. Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews. You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 May 16 - 05:48 AM Wonderful irony - the tag team here, the one that supports Israel's expansionism and oppression of others - hates the fact that the Times of Israel exposes that the EUMC definition has been discarded - but loves it when the same newspaper supports baseless allegations of antisemitism (for example those against Jackie Walker - not my late wife of the same name, obvs, but a lifelong antiracist). In the meantime, in the elections, Labour is doing FAR better than the fash, the MSM, the con-servatives, the bitterites and fellow travellers predicted. Remember "Jeremy Corbyn must resign if Labour loses 200 seats (or 150 seats)"? Looks like Labour will lose 50 seats or fewer, and the bellwether seats in the UK (for example Crawley) show significant swings to Labour. I'd prefer to wipe the con-servatives out (although I have no AK47, so I speak figuratively or electorally) but this looks very like steady true Labour progress under a true and honest man. This may well accelerate when the battlebus prosecutions really bite. Must go and rest - I have strep throat again and it was NOT a good night. Back on the prescribed Class As. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism" The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore. While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement. "The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism." "blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world." Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today. If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them. If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice. Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews. You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people. Jim Carroll A reminder of some "self-hating Jews" Holocaust survivors http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism" The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore. While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement. "The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism." "blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world." Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today. If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them. If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice. Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews. You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people. Jim Carroll A reminder of some "self-hating Jews" Holocaust survivors http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 16 - 06:05 AM "He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation." I had considered asking this to be removed, but after thought, perhaps it is better that it remains where it is as an example of Keith's dishonest and underhand behaviour towards other members of this thread. It has not place here and should have been brought up on the relevant thread where it could have been easily dealt with. I do feel that Keith owes an apology to contributors to this thread, but I don't believe for one minute they will get it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 16 - 06:54 AM Jim, I stand by my description of your post. Do you deny that you merged a Wiki paste with your own text without quotes or accreditation? If you do you are revealed as a liar. Richard, you have chosen not to defend what appears to be an antisemitic claim that those board members had a "vested interest" in broadening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence." Such a statement would lead to your expulsion from Labour if you were a member. Richard, hates the fact that the Times of Israel exposes that the EUMC definition has been discarded I think that is just me. I do not hate the fact of ToI report, I just point out that there has been no change to reflect that on the EUMC site. If it has been discarded, how would anyone know? Few read the ToI after all. I don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 16 - 07:27 AM "Jim, I stand by my description of your post." And I stand behind by my description of your behaviour - this has no place here - you want to make it on the relevant thread where I can treat it with the contempt it deserves, feel free - not behind my back elsewhere You behaviour is beyond description Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 May 16 - 09:05 AM Keith, I will choose what points I want to address and what points I want to shut up about. You do not get to dictate that to me or anyone else. I have better things to do than walk into your silly booby traps. Bobad, together with his anonymous alter ego, is a long-standing troll here, as he has ably demonstrated in this thread. Were I to be an Israeli citizen I would absolutely hate to think that people like him were "on my side." Jim is spot on when he describes the attitudes of people like him as antisemitic. People in power who are like him simply put Jewish people, especially the ones in Israel, in harm's way. They are certainly not angling for the peace and security that the Jewish people and all the other people in the Middle East deserve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 16 - 09:44 AM "He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation." I had considered asking this to be removed, but after thought, perhaps it is better that it remains where it is as an example of Keith's dishonest and underhand behaviour towards other members of this thread. It has not place here and should have been brought up on the relevant thread where it could have been easily dealt with. I do feel that Keith owes an apology to contributors to this thread, but I don't believe for one minute they will get it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: bobad Date: 06 May 16 - 03:35 PM This was posted by my friend Fred Maroun, an Arab originally from Lebanon (for those who are Googling to see if he is a Jew in order to discredit him). Fred is an unapologetic supporter of Israel. "This is heart-wrenching real-life story that says volumes about what is going on in the world today while the world's leaders look elsewhere - a growing and blind hatred that uses Israel to revive old anti-Semitisms. Please read this ESPECIALLY if you are not Jewish." On becoming un-assimilated |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: bobad Date: 06 May 16 - 03:53 PM If you think this is astonishing, hang around at Mudcat for a while and you will not only see Zionism defined by non Jews but antisemitism as well. This the regressive Left justifying their bigotry. "It is astonishing to see figures on the hard Left of the British political spectrum presuming to define the relationship between Judaism and Zionism despite themselves being neither Jews nor Zionists. The likes of Ken Livingstone and Malia Boattia claim that Zionism is separate from Judaism as a faith; that it is purely political; that it is expansionist, colonialist and imperialist. It is unclear why these people feel qualified to provide such an analysis of one of the axioms of Jewish belief. But let me be very clear. Their claims are a fiction. They are a wilful distortion of a noble and integral part of Judaism. Zionism is a belief in the right to Jewish self-determination in a land that has been at the centre of the Jewish world for more than 3,000 years. One can no more separate it from Judaism than separate the City of London from Great Britain." Ken Livingstone and the hard Left are spreading the insidious virus of anti-Semitism: The Telegraph |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 16 - 06:36 PM If I can be bothered googling, it's not to find out anyone's religion or race, but to trust my own judgement to consider if they are reactionary right wing arseholes or not. Whether they be under educated brutal street thugs, or upper class academic tossers in ivory towers.. A right wing arsehole, is a right wing arsehole..... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 May 16 - 06:48 PM Absolute blinkered rubbish. Zionism and faith-based Judaism have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Why, "Zionists" can't even agree among themselves what "Zionism" actually means. And please don't assume that "non-Jews" are always totally blind as to what goes on. We are just as capable as watching and reading the news and looking up sources as anyone else. As ever, your post is full of bilious, hateful nonsense. And I note that you have failed to deny that you were the troll-Guest who called us Jew-haters. Cor, I'll bet you're dying to call us that again, aren't you. But what a giveaway that would be, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 May 16 - 06:50 PM That was to bobad, aka anonymous Guest-coward, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 16 - 07:07 PM Bobad - the worst problem with extremist zealots is they don't care who gets caught in the cross fire or is torn apart by shrapnel... At least mudcat single-issue religious/political zealots are only trying to bore us to death... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: bobad Date: 06 May 16 - 07:31 PM the worst problem with extremist zealots is they don't care who gets caught in the cross fire or is torn apart by shrapnel... By extremist zealots I presume you are referring to Islamist terrorists like Hamas, Hezbollah, IS, Al Qaeda etc. I would have to agree with you on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 May 16 - 07:43 PM Beware of the troll, pfr. Engage him and you're on a hiding to nothing, believe me. He's been playing us along for ages, but has only now been forced out of the woodwork by the new members-only rule. Until Max changed the rule, you didn't see bobad in these threads, just the vile anonymous Guest. Funny that he's suddenly crawled out, now that he can't be a Guest any more, innit? |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: DMcG Date: 07 May 16 - 02:44 AM "One can no more separate it from Judaism than separate the City of London from Great Britain" I'm not sure you appreciate are many people who strongly support Great Britain but think the City of London is a major problem for the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: punkfolkrocker Date: 07 May 16 - 11:45 AM well... London backfired on the tories aggressive divide and rule race campaign strategies... 😀 |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 May 16 - 01:12 PM Steve, Keith, I will choose what points I want to address and what points I want to shut up about. And I can not stop you Steve, but I will still remind you when you break the rules by attacking the person instead of the issues they raise. You have continued your personal attacks on Bobad. Please stop. Re the issue of antisemitism and the left, this Labour supporting Jew has some thoughtful comments. Here is an extract, but please read her whole piece. "There is principled opposition to Israeli policy on the Left. But there is also group-think, bald anti-Semitism – calling Jews Nazis; claiming Jews control the media; calling for Israel, in any form, to be destroyed as a legitimate state – and terrible ignorance, as Ken Livingstone displayed on Thursday. The intensity of the loathing for Israel – the Jewish state – in parts of the far Left is curious. Where is the similar loathing for hosts of countries who observe no human rights whatsoever, including Israel's Arab neighbours? Say this and you will be accused of changing the subject. It does not answer the question. To answer the question, you must travel to early Christian Europe: to the Christ-killing. When does anti-Zionism become anti-Semitism? For me, when you call Israel an 'illegitimate state'. I would love to know if Jeremy Corbyn believes, like Naz Shah, that Israel should not exist." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/labours-anti-semitism-problem-should-sicken-any-voter---includin/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: bobad Date: 07 May 16 - 01:46 PM "Like too many Jewish Londoners, I know from personal experience how it feels to be discriminated against because of your faith. Shamefully, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are both on the rise in London. Synagogues have to hire private security guards – as do Jewish schools. It's simply not acceptable that this is happening in 21st century London." -- SADIQ KHAN |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 May 16 - 02:27 PM Bobad under both his name and his anonymous alter ego has attacked and sniped at me and many others for years, Keith, including calling me a Jew-hater. I note your deafening silence when that happens. I don't call you a hypocrite, but you sometimes sound awfully like one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Paul Burke Date: 07 May 16 - 07:09 PM Reely Weered: Steve Shaw take notice> I posted to thios thread, a fairly innocuous thing about antrisemtism not being peculiar to Labour, and bugger me it ain't here any more. Someone with An Agenda is "moderating" this forum (not surprising, since if I ndon't sign in IU get barred). The arseholes are in charge here! |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 May 16 - 07:37 PM You have to play the game to an extent, Paul. I have a feeling that a large number of my posts irritate the mods but not quite sufficiently enough. Lately, Joe has developed this thing about being "on-topic," as if we've ever managed to achieve that around here ever. 😂 That gives the mods the excuse to zap us unpopular types - unless, of course, we manage to sneak some on-topic point into our invective. Also, it's a very good idea to say "your point is disappointingly disingenuous and relatively remote from the truth" rather than "you're a bloody liar." That helps. I fear that more hints and tips from me at this juncture would only get up the mods' noses, so I'll desist for now. Suffice to say that I agree that antisemitism is not peculiar to Labour, in fact I think that there's far less of it writ large than the pro-Israel camp would have us believe. If you want to see antisemitism embedded, look no further than the Catholic Church, which has a lot to answer for when we look at the history of antisemitism over the last two ot three hundred years or more. They make today's Labour Party look like a collection of benign fluffy bunnies by comparison. Thankfully, the Church is successfully addressing the issue these days, not before time. Let's see if this one survives... You see, Paul? Annoying, but on-topic! |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Richard Bridge Date: 07 May 16 - 07:56 PM It is fairly silly to suggest that only Jews or Zionists should define Zionism. It is also fairly silly to suggest that there is any more than a microscopic amount of antisemitism in the Labour party. What is pretty obvious though is that a cry of "antisemite" goes up when anyone tries to defend the inhabitants (for about 2,000 years) of lands now claimed by the Israeli state from Israeli brutality. Those inhabitants try to defend themselves with sticks and stones while the IDF have F16s white phosphorus and if push comes to shove nuclear weapons. On the other hand, the conservatives have been a byword for racism of all types for decades, at least since Enoch Powell, and still are judging by the attacks on Sadiq Kahn orchestrated by the Lizard of Oz. Now the next thing is the MSM. the BBC in general, Kuenssberg in particular, and even papers that are purportedly left of centre have been consistently recycling conservative or bitterite propaganda for months (one example of which has been the "antisemitism" campaign). Despite this and however you spin it JC has done great things and True Labour now has an impressive slate, starting with four mayors, with fewer council seat losses than the con-servatives, a crushing majority in the London Assembly, and a respectable second place in Wales. Scotland will have to wait - the Blairities did so much damage up there that it may take years to heal. Imagine what could be done with fair media (or an effective new media platform). |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 AM Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence." Livingstone and others also deny their antisemitism, but there it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 16 - 02:59 AM So basically then, everyone is 'antisemitic' to some extent unless they publicly declare they agree the israeli govt & military regime are absolutely brilliant and the best regime ever...!!!??????? 😕 Btw... ever since i was a teenager, I've been extremely wary of, if not absolutely despised, people who rely on the "if your're not with us, you're against us" mentality of belligerent cohersive argument... 😣 |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Paul Burke Date: 08 May 16 - 03:51 AM So let's make a few important points: (1) There is antisemitism in the Labour Party )2) It ought not to be there, and has been allowed to creep in through laziness and political opportunism. (3) It is no more prevalent than in society in general - it ought to be much less prevalent because members should be more aware. (4) It is not confined to Corbyn supporters (5) Criticism of Israel is not necessarily antisemitic (it can be), and no community can be immune from criticism. (6) Many Jews are not zionist - now and historically. They are not antisemitic either. (7) To claim special status for any so- called racial group- whether negatively or positively- is racism (8) If you justify any form of racism, you implicitly justify all - including against youself. Racism is indivisible. (9) Remember that there is a powerful force operating in politics- spin. This "antisemitism" episode bears all the marks of a political ambush, in its timing and biased application. It's a bad idea to tie important principles to ephemeral events. I would have thought it unnecessary to emphasise these points, but some people seem determined to try to make the issue simplistic. You will also note that the term "racism" is too restrictive, and we really need a different word to cover the whole complex of religion, ethnic history, DNA heritage, and cultural tradition. For example, Muslim Bosniacs are genetically indistinguishable from Christian Serbs. The only difference is their ancestors' cultural response to the 15th centuray OIttoman invasion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 16 - 04:02 AM PFR, no government is above criticism. Unlike many countries including its neighbours, Israel allows dissent and criticism of its government in its free media and parliament. There is nothing antisemetic in criticising Israel, unless you hold it to standards not expected of other states. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 May 16 - 04:12 AM An observation for attention of PFR -- Heavy sarcasm is usually counterproductive. This pertinacious drift has reminded me of a conversation with my father in my teens, soon after the 1948 declaration of the state of Israel. He was an influential longtime political Zionist — back when that term simply applied to a specific political movement with specific aims & had not yet acquired its, comparatively recent, highly pejorative overtone of aggressive nationalism. "You will have to realise" I said "that the Arabs are your Red Indians" (another term one could use then but now for some idiotic reason tabu & non-pc). "Nonsense," he replied, "they are nothing of the sort." But I thought, and still think, I was right. One analogy -- settlements established where treaty agreements have previously stated that they wouldn't. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 08 May 16 - 04:13 AM Well, the election is done and dusted, my feet and legs are recovering, and we won the London Mayor and kept our GLA rep in spite of the stupidity of some of those who, in the public eye, represent the Labour Party, and don't know when to shut up. The media in the UK is so screwed and biased that all it takes is Labour representatives to say one word out of place they pounce upon it, sidelining the real issues that are impacting on people's lives day by day - Vilification of people with disabilities and long-term conditions, housing (particularly private rented, and attacks on social rented sector), NHS (pushing Junior Doctors to take industrial action), reductions on front-line local services, etc etc. Virtually all the things that matter ignored in the run-up. Labour has a lot to do. We have a government that sneers at scrutiny, and hostile press. Our membership of EU is under threat - a threat that is led by those who do not want to be fettered by a consensus obligation towards social responsibility. Anyway, I need a break from campaigning for a week or two. We |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 16 - 05:04 AM SPB, Labour has done much worse than previous leading opposition parties in mid term elections, presaging a very low result in the general election. Labour should have made large gains and the government large losses. You should also have expected a boost from a new leader, from a government civil war on Europe and a budget that is an ongoing fiasco, yet Labour barely "held on." It is not an indication of a conspiracy that the media refers to this. You refer to a hostile press. Most people do not read papers anymore, and anyway there is a left wing press but few people subscribe to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 May 16 - 05:45 AM "Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence." That is not antisemitism. The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition, even though many of its supporters are not Jews. Get it into your skull, Keith: antisemitism is disparaging or attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Attacking Jews for their political stance or machinations is not antisemitism. There is nothing antisemetic in criticising Israel, unless you hold it to standards not expected of other states. Israel has a specific responsibility apropos of its place in the Middle East as the only Western nation there that is propped up by special deals with the West and a huge unconditional subsidy to its military by the US. yes we can apply standards we don't expect from nations we don't treat the same way. And Israel itself does not uphold the standards that it purports to expect from its neighbours. We can squabble about that 'til kingdom come, but the obstinate fact that that criticising Israel for its regime's actions are never antisemitic. Attacking Israelis BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS is antisemitic. You have an agenda, Keith, that prevents you from seeing this with any clarity. And it isn't a very honest agenda either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 May 16 - 05:47 AM Is never antisemitic, and that wasn't the only glitch. It's the small print. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: DMcG Date: 08 May 16 - 08:05 AM Well, Keith, of course all Labour supporters would like it to have been better, and one would have to be blinkered not to recognise more needs to be done. But it is worth knowing Conservatives lost twice as many seats as Labour and that if you look at the first set of council elections after Blair and Cameron became leader, Corbyn has done better than either. As always there are many ways to look at the set of results, but claims it was a disaster are a deliberate careful selection of viewpoint on someone's part. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 16 - 08:08 AM MGM - sarcasm, counterproductive...??? A sad sense of humour born from despair at the stupidity of human existence.... At least i seem to have stirred you into posting a seriously interesting anecdote founded in your authentic personal historic perspective... 😎 As for Keith and his 'hidden' agenda... I'm only 25% jew.. I haven't a clue about Keith's degree of jewishness on a sale from 0 - 100...??? 😜 Not that it matters, any misguided fool can side and identify with aims of a hostile repressive ideological regime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 16 - 08:19 AM Btw.. Keith - "SPB, Labour has done much worse than previous leading opposition parties in mid term elections, presaging a very low result in the general election. Labour should have made large gains and the government large losses. You should also have expected a boost from a new leader, from a government civil war on Europe and a budget that is an ongoing fiasco, yet Labour barely "held on." ..so.. regarding predictions of how well or badly labour lead by Corbyn At this point in the early 21st Century, the world is such an entirely different mess of complex reactionary conditions... .. and Corbyn does not exist in a vacuum... Any sensible observer / participant should be very wary of making predictions... |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 16 - 08:21 AM oops.. "Corbyn should have done" |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 May 16 - 10:43 AM PFR -- Yay OK, see what you mean. But I try in the main to avoid sarcasm/irony/whevs: a notoriously double-edged weapon - however bitterly despair-inducing the provocation... ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 16 - 01:45 PM That is not antisemitism. That is your opinion Steve, but I think you are wrong. . The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition, Can you support that assertion? And, the groups on the EUMC board were not part of any pro-Israel lobby. its (Israel's)place in the Middle East as the only Western nation there that is propped up by special deals with the West and a huge unconditional subsidy to its military by the US. No it is not. You must come up with some other reason to single out the only Jewish state. we can apply standards we don't expect from nations we don't treat the same way. EUMC says you are antisemites then Steve. but the obstinate fact that that criticising Israel for its regime's actions are never antisemitic. It is if you ignore other regimes with an worse record. Why else would you single out the only Jewish state in the world? You have an agenda, Keith, that prevents you from seeing this with any clarity. Me, and the EU. Pfr, I haven't a clue about Keith's degree of jewishness on a sale from 0 - 100...??? 😜 I am a little shocked that you ask. Is my ethnicity an issue? (The answer is zero) |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 PM "on a sale from 0 - 100...???".... sale...??? Seing as this is primarily a music website.. ...Gimme a 'C'...!!! Please don't be that shocked... it's not like I asked you to show us all your wedding tackle... 😜 Of course it don't matter... I said that before you did... .. no big deal either way if we all get our cards out on the table or play with the royals and aces hidden up our sleeves.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party From: Paul Burke Date: 08 May 16 - 03:22 PM "Why else would you single out the only Jewish state in the world?" Because soft handling of "the only Jewish state in the world" has left the west in an impossible position- when Putin invades Ukraine, there's no answer. Israel colonises occupied territories, so why shouldn't Russia? Because no state should be "Jewish"- it's exactly as bad as being "Muslim" or for that matter "Aryan" and for the same reason. States should be non- religious and non- racist (and avoid other forms of discrimination too) and when they are either it's totally justified to oppose them. |