BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 03:48 AM

What comment about Labour and unemployment? Only comparison I have drawn Jom's attention to was between the UK (5%) and the EU (10.4%).

"why is productivity in this country obstinately flatlining, and has been for all the years the Tories have been in power since 2010?"

If I were you I'd check that bit about productivity constantly flatlining, particularly in manufacturing - you'd be in for one hell of a surprise. The Tories by the way have only been in power since 2015 before then they were part of a Coalition Government (I say that in deference to your constant demands for accuracy from others, even although I know it goes against your "Socialist" belief that there must be "One law for the Goose and another for the Gander")

According to the Office for National Statistics - "In the United Kingdom, Productivity is the real value of output produced by a unit of labour during a certain time. This page provides the latest reported value for - United Kingdom Productivity - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news. United Kingdom Productivity - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on July of 2016."

The figures reported quarterly presented as Index Points for the period 1971 to 2016 are as follows:

Actual/Current = 101.50
Previous = 101.00
Highest = 102.20
Lowest = 44.60

The trend since 2013 has been upward, which might explain a couple of things such as the UK's being the best performing economy of the worlds developed nations, certainly far better performing than that of the EU.


By the bye Jom was a name Jim Carroll called himself in one of his own posts, if it's OK for him, it's fine by me. No need for you to be offended on his behalf. Best check before making up Acronyms and using them. Your latest is the Company (Bianchi) registered trade name for a waistband holster.

As for your post - Steve Shaw - 09 Jul 16 - 07:50 PM - Put that to music and you'd have a song that would top the "Country & Western" charts in next to no time.

"bloody hedge fund managers" - Hedge funds are practically only used by institutional investors, they are not available to the general public. An example from past times, the National Union Of Mineworkers was one of the largest institutional investors in the UK, it was by it's investments that NUM Pensions could be paid. A number of other large organisations and companies did the same with their pension funds - and guess what Mr Shaw - in general they worked and worked very effectively, lots of people up and down the country are enjoying a happy and secure retirement because of it.

The "overpaid chief executive" is normally paid what was agreed when he took on the job, he is normally paid his bonus, again previously agreed, based upon HIS performance, not that of the company. An example a firm, lets say a bank, is losing £345 million a year and brings in a new CEO in order to stop the rot, the following year the bank is now only losing £150 million. Has the new CEO brought about an improvement? Has he reversed the trend and put things on the right track - I'd say yes, you would probably disagree - but if any company hired any worker and promised him x amount in wages plus y amount as a bonus based on HIS performance, then you'd be the first to squeal if he wasn't paid it having performed what was agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 07:50 PM

Er, Nigel, I think you have severely misread Jim's sentiments. His comments were about the waste of resources in not using people's talents to the full. We invest a great deal (though nowhere near enough,which is why we'll never get immigration down) in training people to have the high-level skills needed in industry, in the NHS and in education. What a waste of that investment it is if these highly-trained people are stacking shelves in Tesco, and there is nothing snobbish in saying that. Dunno Jim's history, but in my time I've stacked shelves in Victor Value and Tesco as well as scrubbing the floors and scraping the maggot-infested bonemeal out of the bottoms of the meat-cutting machines, mowed council housing estates which involved inhaling the dust from fortnight-old dog turds that you hadn't spotted in time, weeded flower beds in the pissing rain with my bare hands and scrubbed clay flower pots for eight hours at a time with no hand protection. Whilst I always knew I wasn't going to be doing it forever, it taught me that human beings who go to work to keep their families housed and fed need and deserve a certain level of respect and dignity, no matter how menial their work. As a matter of fact, the lowest-paid workers doing the worst jobs, such as wiping old people's bottoms whilst on zero-hours contracts, happen to be a thousand times more valuable to this country than any bloody hedge fund manager or overpaid chief executive who will draw his bonus no matter how badly his company performs. Some of us kept our eyes open in our formative days, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 07:20 PM

Well Shaw, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way, glossing over the utterly dire state of the nation and it's finances left behind by the Labour Party and the Trades Union bosses in 1979, and again in 2010 by "nu-labor's" Blair and Brown after 13 years in office. Of course it takes time to rheverse the rot caused by poor governance - but it does not alter the fact that in both instances the incoming Governments did address the issues and turned things around. And yes they did it by taking painful, unpopular and hard decisions - that is what is known as leadership taking the necessary steps to put things right - you seem to think leadership consists of supporting daft populist ideology and "kicking-the-can" down the road for later generations to ultimately pick up the bill for your folly.

I confronted you with your comment about Labour and unemployment. That's all. Not for one second have I pretended that the Labour administration up to 1979 was good. But you were inaccurate in your remarks and I've provided you with the evidence (well, it's easy enough to look up at any rate, and impossible to contradict) that unemployment under Tory administrations since 1979 has almost always been worse than under Labour, contrary to your rude attack on Jim's comments. It's all checkable online, so why don't you do it before posting?   In fact, the Tory unemployment figures are even worse than the headline rate when you take into account the way the Tories, from Thatcher right up to Cameron, have dishonestly massaged the figures, as I explained in my last post. My challenge to you remains: if the Tories are so good at getting people into work, then why is productivity in this country obstinately flatlining, and has been for all the years the Tories have been in power since 2010? Shall I save you the bother? It's because all those millions of jobs created are not the kinds of jobs that you or I have been used to seeing for decades. And I don't mean jobs for life, a concept I dislike severely. I mean totally insecure jobs, part-time jobs, temporary jobs, seasonal jobs, zero-hours jobs, bogus apprenticeships that teach young people nothing, millions of extra "self-employed" jobs that would have made respectable self-employed people, people with real skills and at least some business acumen, in your time and mine laugh their socks off. You're being conned. Some of us, unlike you, can see through the whole charade.

By the way, as you're being incredibly rude in calling me by my surname and calling Jim "Jom," for reasons best known to yourself, I've decided to call you "Tucbale" instead of Teribus from now on. It stands for "Troglodytical Unreconstructed Colonel Blimp-like Antediluvian Little Englander." You OK with that, Tucbale, or should I just call you Woodcock?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:09 PM

Jim Carroll - 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

"Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25."

Jim Carroll - 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

"25% unemployment eh?"
That was exactly the figure in the area I left to work in London

Well well Jom, never knew that London was in the North of England.

You didn't say Jom but when you left Liverpool and went South to work in London, did you starve? Did you have to live on the streets?

Any idea what an electrician charges for a call out these days Jom? Any idea how difficult they are to get hold of?

"as a tradesman in an essential trade I feel that my efforts would be better spent elsewhere, and I believe that of every other individual in Britain with training and skills."

So rather than do an honest days work you would by choice sponge off the working population.

Unfortunately Jom there is a large number of those on the dole who are youngsters who did not bother about thinking of their futures, threw away the opportunities available to them while in full time education, who are barely literate or numerate and have no training or skills apart from their amazing ability to wangle benefits from our welfare system.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

" but which he would not demean himself to do"
No I do not, but as a tradesman in an essential trade I feel that my efforts would be better spent elsewhere, and I believe that of every other individual in Britain with training and skills.
If the job is essential, then its importance needs to be reflected in the remuneration to those doing it.
Lip-service Nigel, and you know it.
"Clearly Jim does not want to be considered as one of the workers."
No - I said before - I am not a "worker" I am a human being who worked for a living" - but as a human being, I have other things that make up my humanity - as does every other human being on the planet - nobody should ever be defined by what they do for a living, but by the sum part of what makes them what they are.
You people wriggle around all these points without ever addressing them.
"we are all part of "society"
No we are not - the type of 'democracy' we have makes us adjuncts, not parts.
Let's try you on the points Teribus refuses to respond to - this time, without the insults, if you think you can make the effort.
If people can't find work, alternatives, what should happen to them - workhouse - starvation for those who can't find work or what?
It's a classic Tory claim and you appear to be a fine example of Toryism.
Try another one that Teribus refuses to respond to:
If we must all leave our families and get on our bikes, and if the accommodation in the areas of work are out of our reach, where do we live, hostels, tents, sleep on park benches.... where.
You and your feckin' "get on your bikes"
You're supposed to be a Christian, aren't you - how do you square your predatory Toryism with your Christianity - you're nothing like the Christians I grew up surrounded by - I've never encountered such inhumanity as I see in the so-called 'Christians' on this site.
Not too inarticulate for you, I hope - I did my best for you!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM

Exxept when stacking shelves is not a valued by those who profit from the labour, but see that as a penance for those who are excluded from other job opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM

For a bit of historical context on this Who Deserves to be English discussion, I recommend "Shakespeare and the Jews," by James Shapiro. Many of the arguments here closely mirror the arguments that surrounded the "Jew bill" [chapter 7] of 1753, which takes up the final chapter of the book. The tumult, jingoism and the results were similar. I find it hard to accept that we have not progressed in almost 3 centuries.

By the way, if you go to page 279 of the same book you will find that whether or not The kingdom was united by act of Parliament it was treated de jure as though it was. On the question of unification, note 70 reads "The best known example of this problem in early modern England was the 1609 case of Calvin, a young boy born in Scotland whose right to benefit from freehold tenements in London was contested on the grounds that he was an alien. Luckily for Calvin, legal experts decided that he was born after King James had come to the English throne and thus was technically English and therefore eligible to hold property in England. His case gives some inkling of how disputed the legal status of aliens was at this time." [Notes re: chapter 6, "Race, Nation or Alien]

This also suggests that it may be harder to do an actual separation than it appears at first glance.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:23 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM
I was an electrician not a shelf-stacker
If I am forced to choose between between (sic) stacking shelves, leaving home and family or starving, the society we live under has ceased to function.

Of course, no-one wants to end up stacking shelves. it is demeaning, it is a job for those beyond contempt.

Alternately, it is a job that needs to be done. It is paid employment.

Society has not "ceased to function" just because it is necessary that someone does this work.

But if Jim believes it is below his station, then he believes there are jobs which must be done, but which he would not demean himself to do.

Clearly Jim does not want to be considered as one of the workers.

I also have problems with the phrase "the society we live under". we are all part of "society" it is not over, or above us. We are part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

"A new all time low even for Jim Carroll."
Then ****** answer it.
I was an electrician not a shelf-stacker
If I am forced to choose between between stacking shelves, leaving home and family or starving, the society we live under has ceased to function.
"25% unemployment eh?"
That was exactly the figure in the area I left to work in London - what's your point?
The work was then all centred around the South East then, now it is considerably less, but that is only because workers are now forced to take jobs that are unsuited to, do not meet their financial needs - percentages.
WE are not "workers" - we are human beings who have certain skills, aptitudes and interests.
I was trained for five years as an electrician and worked at that trade for over half a century - any society that cannot cater for skilled workers and forces them to take menial jobs at pittances is order to stay alive is one fucked up society.   
Are you really suggesting that %25 in one of the richest economies in the Western world is acceptable?
You must be fucking mad!
Britain once led the world in manufacture - gone thanks to you scumbags, who put profit before the interests of the people,
Our greatest export now is MONEY - FINANCE!!
One of the fastest rising slogans here in Ireland now is "people before profit" - about time those in Britain got a grip of that idea
As I said, it's not as if there was no wealth to be had - but it's in the hands of those who produce sweet fuck all.
POVERTY GAP
Once you start comparing the British economy with that of rural, poverty stricken, tourist-dependent Greece, you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel - is that the level yo think Thatcherism has dragged us to?
I ask again
alternatives - workhouse - starvation for those who can't find work or what.
and again ; I've asked you to provide evidence that there are " there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits" - who says so, other than you.
You are great at demanding answers but are to tally incapable of giving them yourself.
Feckin' fascist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:13 PM

"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"

A new all time low even for Jim Carroll.

Here is where he got that supposed quote from (I quote the section of my post {three separate sentences} he took it from):

"You've been given the current unemployment percentages for the UK and for the EU you would gladly see us shackled to.

25% unemployment eh?

In Spain, Italy and Greece (ALL EU Eurozone countries) they'd take your bloody hand off if you offered them a way to guarantee 25% unemployment at the moment."

Now I have opened those three sentences out, just in case Jom doesn't know what a sentence is and to let everyone see the point I was making and the method, lack of logic and warped thinking behind Carroll's invention (AKA Jim Carroll Made-Up-Shit) of attempting to say that he said he was happy to see 25% unemployment.

Oh just in case anybody is in any doubt unemployment in the UK is half what it is generally throughout the EU.

Steve Shaw - 09 Jul 16 - 06:40 AM

Well Shaw, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way, glossing over the utterly dire state of the nation and it's finances left behind by the Labour Party and the Trades Union bosses in 1979, and again in 2010 by "nu-labor's" Blair and Brown after 13 years in office. Of course it takes time to reverse the rot caused by poor governance - but it does not alter the fact that in both instances the incoming Governments did address the issues and turned things around. And yes they did it by taking painful, unpopular and hard decisions - that is what is known as leadership taking the necessary steps to put things right - you seem to think leadership consists of supporting daft populist ideology and "kicking-the-can" down the road for later generations to ultimately pick up the bill for your folly.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM

teribus - shame really... if you could just be content to harness your articulacy, knowledge, skills and experience
to positively persuade 'us' to better understand the bureaucratic complexity of EU;
areas where 'we' might benefit from reconsidering, re-evaluating, and modifying 'our' understanding of very difficult, highly specialised legalities & economics..

Then you would be a genuine asset to mudcat, an educator and facilitator;
and potentially win over some of us more towards your position on certain issues...????


As it is, your vile sneering attitude merely renders you as a contemptible old tory **** cartoon caricature..

But if that is just simply the way you are, then please.. why not keep it up..
At least this way you are good for your hilarity value...

Ben Elton and Dickens combined might have managed to create such a rotter of a pantomime / sit-com heartless villain... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM

"Personally I would like to see the figures that supports Jom's contention that everybody in the UK currently drawing benefits has actually contributed towards them."
Did I say this - no - of course I didn't - you made that up
I've asked you to provide evidence that there are " there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits" - who says so, other than you.
I make no contention - you invented that.
I say that forcing people to take jobs that have no inclination for is a sign that the system we live under is failing - it is a waste of human resources to force people with skills and inclinations in certain types of work to stack shelves in Tescos.
Forcing people into such decisions under the threat of starving them is basically little different than slave labour without the chains.
"Of course there is information available that will tell you how many people are claiming dole"
Then provide it - you always make these sweeping claims and refuse to back them up with facts.
"given to us from those on high"??"
Of couse it should - typos again when you have nothing else.
"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"
Wow - where id that come from
How on earth is closing the European door on those prepared to search for work going to change things in any way - there is a severe shortage of jobs in Britain, thanks to the Tory destruction of our industries - you refuse to even respond to the damage done by leaving Europe, let alone explain it.
"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"
Been ther, done that - it is the responsibility of the Government of the day to create the conditions in which people can find their own work - that is their purpose - creating a society under which we can all use our skills and abilities and earn out own livings.
Unemployment benefit is what we paid for in order to safeguard the wellbeing of those unable to.
Unless you can provide employment for the maximum number of people, you can never sort out those who can't work from those who won't.
That is what makes your claims so crass.
I ask again - alternatives - workhouse - starvation for thse who can't find work or what.
Stop your Tory bullshit and provide some facts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM

(that, not than)

As crazy as it sounds, you guys over there are more sane and temperate than us Amurikanz. Relatively speaking that is.

As if that was ever in doubt over the long haul with deliberate speed
and the fullness of time including the provision that you may edit,
abridge and extend your remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:40 AM

"If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose."

"If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??"

Well Teribus, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way. The Tories got into power in 1979 via a "Labour isn't working" poster (chillingly reminiscent of Farage's disgraceful racist poster, eh?), yet unemployment shot up almost immediately and for the next 18 years of Tory rule the level never got anywhere near down to the level they inherited from Labour. Unemployment was lower under Blair than the Tories ever achieved, and once they got back into power it shot up once again. The Tories are the true party of unemployment in this country, in spite of their cheating efforts to massage the figures. Thatcher did it by putting perfectly fit people in their millions on incapacity benefit and Cameron does it by pretending that a million on zero-hours contracts, millions more who are now counted as "self-employed" (a way of employers avoiding paying for their stamps), hundreds of thousands on bogus "apprenticeships" that involve young people making the tea and sweeping the floors on half the minimum wage, and hundreds of thousands under-employed on part-time and seasonal work. Oh, and if you make it next to impossible to claim JSA, my word, doesn't the claimant count look so good! You may like kidding yourself but you can't kid us. The proof? In spite of Tory crowing about "more people in work than ever" (see above litany), productivity in this country is bumping along the bottom and has been for years. Let's see you explaining that one away.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:37 AM

I was going to reply, but I have better things to do today - off to Acton Carnival, so I will let you sit on your Laissez-Faire high-horse in peace for the rest of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM

Jim Carroll - 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

Let's rip this clichéd little exercise in leftist rhetoric apart shall we:

1: There are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into.

Jom says that this is - "Totally invented Tory bollocks"

Personally I would like to see the figures that supports Jom's contention that everybody in the UK currently drawing benefits has actually contributed towards them.

Jom's take on things is that if you have the choice to either take a job or stay on benefits and the latter matches earning wages then it is perfectly acceptable to pass up on job experience and opt to remain idle. I say that it is not, that is not what the Welfare State was set up to provide, it was designed and intended to be a safety net not a life style choice.

2: "There is no information as to how many people claiming dole who have never paid into it –this is part of the Tory myth, and it doesn't matter anyway"

Of course there is information available that will tell you how many people are claiming dole who have never been in employment and who have never paid into the system - Simple matter of tracking National Insurance Numbers, contributions and compare that to benefits paid Jom.

Of course it matters, if you cannot see why, then you are a greater fool than even I take you for.

3: "Unemployment 'benefit' is not a gift given to us on high"

?? Should that not be "....given to us from those on high"??

" – it is an insurance scheme we all pay into from when we start work in order to protect everybody from suffering if our Government fails to create the conditions whereby we can find work"

Correction Jom - "it is an insurance scheme that all those of us who work pay into" - unfortunately too many people who have never worked a day in their lives use this insurance scheme as a dossers charter. Since Tony Blair left officer the country has been run 100% by professional politicians who to quote Nigel Farage - "Have never done an honest days work in their lives" - going to uni and then going straight into Conservative or Labour Central Office doesn't count – Tell me Jom just how precisely are these experts in how trade, industry and commerce work even going to recognise what conditions are required to create jobs - they wouldn't know them if they jumped up and bit them on the arse.

"the high unemployment figures are not because because people don't want to work but because there is no work to be had."

Bullshit Jom, the work is there, the lazy and indolent native population just isn't prepared to do it. The migrant workers who have flocked to this country are not all on the dole, they found work, and proved themselves to be damned good at it. Unemployment in the UK is running at half the level it is in the EU.

As a prospective employer I look at two candidates for one position. One has been sat on the dole for the last five years and the other has turned his hand to and taken on any job no matter how menial or lowly paid he could find over the same time frame - I know which one I am going to employ - the one that knows what work is. That Jom is common sense and should be obvious to anybody.

4: "Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25.
Nobody is entitled to say that those unable to find work should not be paid (another example of your fascism)"

At one point Jom - WOW - Is it fun living in your time warp Jom? You've been given the current unemployment percentages for the UK and for the EU you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh? In Spain, Italy and Greece (ALL EU Eurozone countries) they'd take your bloody hand off if you offered them a way to guarantee 25% unemployment at the moment.

On points Jom, you have completely missed the point that was being made. It has nothing whatsoever to do with not paying benefits to those unable to find work, but has everything to do with not paying benefits to those who won't find work - they are robbing resources from people who actually need it.

Now back to the reality check I gave you Jom:

1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life."

Quite right says Jom but goes on to say, "but it is the job of elected governments to create circumstances in which I can find work within a reasonable distance from my home" - hate to point this out to you Jom but the Government you speak of is part and parcel of the world, nor anybody in it. Nobody owes you a job or a living that is YOUR personal responsibility (A word hated by you and the likes of you - Aw it's always somebody else's fault).

You talk as though there is no work, odd then that the millions who have come to this country have seemed to find it. When you moved from Liverpool to London, did you starve Jom? If you can move to find work why can't anybody else? I did and worked quite happily all over the world while maintaining a family and home in the UK, and believe me I was by no means the exception.

"If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose.

If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??

Back in the day, if I lost my job, I claimed my entitlement from THE POOL CREATED BY WORKING PEOPLE; nothing has fundamentally changed {Oh yes it bloody well has}, and when it does, we will have a refugee crisis on our hands of people moving out of Britain to seek work – you braindeads have just closed the European door. - Just how have we closed the door Jom? Do you know the details of whatever deal has yet to be negotiated? No you don't What about the door to the world? Has that been closed as well?

2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life.

They have done – they pay into a compulsory insurance scheme in order to protect themselves from such events.

Missed the point again Jom, and they will only have paid into this compulsory insurance scheme IF THEY HAVE BEEN IN PAID EMPLOYMENT. Now what do you think I meant when I mentioned - "preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life." - education, looking at and determining best trades and training to optimise job prospects then working towards it by applying themselves.

3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population

"We are not talking about "individuals" we are discussing millions" – But Jom you are talking "individuals" your little bleat was all about what you see as the Government's responsibility to create the conditions so that you can have a job for life on your doorstep - How the F**k does the Government know what YOU want to do, or indeed where you want to live. Not their job at all, all that part of life is down to you - the individual, supported and advised by friends and family, and nobody else.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:00 AM


They'll pitch Leadsome as the 'people's rebellion' candidate despite the fact she's a liar and a bigot. She'll win because the tory party is basically an association of old white people hankering after the last days of empire, and then she won't call an election until 2020 and will govern undemocratically and without mandate (didn't work out so well last time, did it?).

If that's all that happens if Leadsome is elected, I will count myself lucky. Given her blog posts from before the referendum was announced, we could find a significant rise in anti-gay attacks, just as we have against 'immigrants' (I know someone personally who was verbally assaulted for speaking French to her child), legislation favouring official marriage over heterosexual partnerships, bringing Christianity more to the fore in government (cf the US) and who know what else.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 04:35 AM

"2) Have the support of the elected Conservative Members of Parliament"

Well, no leader of any political party has the full support or every member of their PLP. Ever. This looks good typed in a Daily Mail editorial, but is spin and not the real world.

Party politics is dying on it's arse, and about time too. The EU vote has laid bare the deficiencies of the party system; the winners of Brexit have all done the damage and then buggered off, more than aware of that being implicated in the invoking of Article 50 and the practicalities of negotiating to leave the EU will mean their legacy will be little more than a steaming midden of pure excrement.

Meanwhile, the two prospective and future unelected PMs are both right-wing and both unpalatable leaders for a country. The idea everyone is going to unite behind the likes of Andrea Leadsome is laughable - why should we? She's a little-England tory who would never be in this position if it wasn't for the fact Aaron Banks has taken a shine to her and decided that as UKIP is dead in the water he should back another horse, especially one galloping to the right of the field. The fact he found one nearly as nasty as Farage in the tory ranks comes as no surprise, but the idea of this village-hall demagogue leading the nation through the choppy waters of Brexit is enough to make any same person despair, so it'll probably happen.

They'll pitch Leadsome as the 'people's rebellion' candidate despite the fact she's a liar and a bigot. She'll win because the tory party is basically an association of old white people hankering after the last days of empire, and then she won't call an election until 2020 and will govern undemocratically and without mandate (didn't work out so well last time, did it?).

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 10:00 AM

(that, not than)

As crazy as it sounds, you guys over there are more sane and temperate than us.

As if that was ever in doubt over the long haul with deliberate speed and the fullness of time including the provision that you may edit, abridge and extend your remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

Unfortunately though Jom, there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into.
Totally invented Tory bollocks
There is no information as to how many people claiming dole who have never paid into it –this is part of the Tory myth, and it doesn't matter anyway
Unemployment 'benefit' is not a gift given to us on high – it is an insurance scheme we all pay into from when we start work in order to protect everybody from suffering if our Government fails to create the conditions whereby we can find work – the high unemployment figures are not because because people don't want to work but because there is no work to be had.
Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25.
Nobody is entitled to say that those unable to find work should not be paid (another example of your fascism)
Reality check for you Terrytoon
"1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life."
Quite right, but it is the job of elected governments to create circumstances in which I can find work within a reasonable distance from my home.
Tebbit's 'get on your bike' is a legacy of Thatcher's cutting the North of England adrift and creating two nations - Thatcher virtually admitted she was a fascist when she described Pinochete's murdering style of government her kind of democracy.
The question of becoming itinerant workers, which is what you extremists are proposing, is out of the question anyway – as general property prices and rents are largely governed by work availability, most people cannot afford to move to where the work is – what are you really suggesting – reopening the workhouse schemes - if not, what - mass starvation?.
If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose.
Back in the day, if I lost my job, I claimed my entitlement from the pool created by working people; nothing has fundamentally changed, and when it does, we will have a refugee crisis on our hands of people moving out of Britain to seek work – you braindeads have just closed the European door.

"2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life."
They have done – they pay into a compulsory insurance scheme in order to protect themselves from such events.

"3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population"
We are not talking about "individuals" we are discussing millions – go and count the unemployment figures, then add on the millions who are earning the national minimum wage, then add to that, those who are surviving on or below subsistence level
It's not as if there isn't money about – look at the rapidly accelerating gap between haves and have-nots – in Britain and throughout the world.

This latest referendum fiasco has benefitted nobody – there's an example of extreme bigotry and self-destructive stupidity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

It is clear to me now than Britain is a nation on edge.

The US is a nation on the edge of armed revolt vs. rebellion.

I urge you this is the time to step back from all this revulsion.

It is time to discuss how to step back.


































































.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM

last in ref to 08 Jul 16 - 08:01 AM

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:44 AM

Rather like the middle class and poor folks in the U.S. who steadfastly vote Republicrud - the very people who put them in the economic toilet they compain about.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:41 AM

David Cay Johnston's analysis of who drove the leave vote, why and what it means for the future:

What are sometimes referred to as "those people" spoke, but no one is listening to the real message.

The Daily Beast

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:01 AM

"
Umm, if I'm not mistaken it was the proles who drove the leave vote was it not?"

bobad - for a starters Learning 101 in advanced ideology theory.. google "Hegemony" - ".. colluding in your own domination"...

That's what was basic concept when I was a first year undergrad well over 3 decades ago....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 07:41 AM

Oh dear Raggy, please point out where in the Remain campaigns literature did it state with utmost clarity that the price of everything was going to stay the same of be reduced.

So the price of a computer goes up - as pointed out by someone else, that may or may not have had something to do with the result of the referendum - bet the price is also going up on the continent too.

If the price of a Merc, Audi, BMW or a VW goes up too much to affect sales to the UK just sit back and hear the Germans scream.

But a couple of things we now do have a chance to do something about:

1) Immigration - we will have the say on who comes in and who does not - not some unaccountable bureaucrat in Brussels, or a foreign political leader wishing to grandstand. Our borders are easier to both control and close than the EU's.

2) VAT - Which does already affect everyone, rich and poor alike - we can either scrap it (which I think would be a bad idea) or adjust it as WE see fit - we will no longer be told from Brussels what is to be covered and what is to be exempt.

And Bobad was perfectly correct Shaw. What swung the vote for Brexit were the votes of traditional Labour voters the length and breadth of the country. The Tory Leadership election is proceeding according to their party's rules and once over they will have a leader who:

1) Will lead

2) Have the support of the elected Conservative Members of Parliament

How many pieces will the Labour Party be in by then Shaw? BBC news showed the Chamber of the House of Commons yesterday barely one single Labour member sitting on the opposition benches behind their "Leader".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:30 AM

Still cannot read Teribus. I distinctly said it was a sign of things to come. So a laptop has gone up 10%, what next a Car perhaps, then food imports, which hit everyone rich or poor. Oil, gas, electric, petrol etc etc.

You often state various things are the cause of problems within our society. One of the biggest is the "Sod you Jack, I'm alright" mentality which you clearly demonstrate.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:13 AM

That was supposed to be drives, not leads.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM

Nope. Nobody leads the votes in this country. Everyone, from Prince Phil to the scruffiest tramp, has one vote and each vote carries equal weight. That's how it works. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 06:44 PM

"fuck the proles.. let 'em starve for all I care..."😜

Umm, if I'm not mistaken it was the proles who drove the leave vote was it not?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:39 PM

So the three bastards who did the most lying to the British public, who, specifically, promised us falsely that immigration could be brought under control, have all buggered off. And don't pretend that Gove didn't know what he was doing. He's now hoping for a job under Theresa, and she'll probably be stupid enough to give him one. Had he not knifed Boris, he'd have fallen on his sword days ago, but, this way, it looks more like an honourable defeat. Which it never was. That's it with these Tories. Their main priority is not the interests of the country but to stab each other in the back at the first opportunity. Plus ça change.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:01 PM

that evolution forgot...

Oh, lord, don't bring EVOLUTION into this - you know what will happen....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:21 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM

A sign of things to come.

Dell Compueter have increased their costs to retailer by 10% as from the 1st July. No doubt a sign if things to come.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/05/dell_confirms_price_rise_post_brexit_vote_as_uk_pound_stumbles/?utm_source=fark&utm_medi

It may be worth actually reading the linked article.

A spokeswoman for the Texan tech baron confirmed the changes:

"We carefully consider price moves for our customers and partners, and have worked diligently over the past several months to postpone any increases pending the outcome of the EU referendum."
"Our component costs are priced in US dollars," she added, "and unfortunately, the recent strengthening of the US dollar versus sterling and other currencies in the EMEA region, following the UK's decision to leave the European Union, will have a direct impact on the price we sell to our UK customers and partners."

So the headline 10% increase is a cumulative figure over several months. The cynical might think that Dell had delayed implementing price hikes until they had a suitable scapegoat.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:18 PM

Teribus - errrm... I never specifically mentioned Dell computers...???


But still.. more please, you're a terrific time capsule of the tories that evolution forgot...

We used to have a mean minded town councillor who talked a bit like you... ah.. those were the days..
She was always trying to close down any events or organizations
that didn't meet her strict approval...
Life was so simple and polarised into left v right.
Gave us young bright educated arts inclined students something to fight back against...

I'm glad we have this cordial opportunity to meet..
I normally avoid the types of threads you inhabit.....


Btw... as Mudcat is a primarily music forum, there's currently a possible motivation for you
to make your once or twice per annum excursion to threads above the line;

political & EU songs...??? 🙄..

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:48 PM

pfr - I did not introduce the metric for destitution, poverty and an economy going to the dogs because the price of an "effin" Dell computer was going up by 10% - you Prat.

"Oh dear I'm destitute I can't afford to have a Smart 4k Ultra HD 55" LED TV in my downstairs loo, the Guvermint should be ashamed of themselves, after all it's my rights wots being abused - I'm too ashamed to invite me mates round - They should give me one.

Not at all interested in what you would like to hear to make your day, thing is you haven't heard it, nor will you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM

"thank's"...

.. you've made my day...


.. icing on the cake would be an unguarded recording of a top brexit tory
declaring "fuck the proles.. let 'em starve for all I care..."😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:33 PM

Teribus - than's for that.. I was feeling a bit nostalgic for brutal uncaring 80s thatcherism.... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:11 PM

How many computers do you buy a year Raggy? One, two dozen?

In my life I have bought four of them.

As far as the cost of living goes I have noticed no great changes on the staples that would threaten starvation pfr - but then again like Raggy maybe your cousin is a compulsive computer purchaser.

Ah yes I did have a bit of a chuckle at Jom's expense, further gilded by the fact that as my pension comes from abroad Jom's loss is my gain (At the moment about a 12.5% increase Raggy).

Currency fluctuations do not worry me, where we are now is somewhere where we have been before and no doubt will be somewhere again at some point in the future - swings and round-abouts, ups and downs - no requirement for undue alarmist wittering. When I first went to the USA Raggy £1 = $2.40 it may pain you to hear that in the intervening 50 years I did not starve I did not face ruin, none of us are going to suffer any suchlike in the coming couple of years - go tell your scare stories elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:44 AM

LONDON — It was only a column in The Daily Mail, but in its way, it told you everything you need to know about politics in Britain these days.

It was written by Sarah Vine, who is married to Michael Gove, a leader of the anti-Europe "Brexit" campaign, and it appeared soon after Britain shocked itself (and the Goves) by voting to leave the European Union.

The referendum threw the country into turmoil, and no one, including Mr. Gove, had a coherent plan for what to do next. But that did not seem to bother Ms. Vine. Yes, she wrote, it is "an awesome responsibility that he — we — are now charged with implementing the instructions of 17 million people." But perhaps more urgently, she went on, the whole affair had messed up her social life and upset her and her husband's political plans.

Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:26 AM

I was incorrect Teribus, you have mentioned the fall of the pound against the Euro.

It was in a nasty, unnecessary and callous jibe about the value of Jim's UK pension in Ireland.

Unfortunately a somewhat typical comment from you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM

Teribus - all well and good...

But now try explaining to ordinary family folk, like my cousin - a grandmother holding down 2 exhausting minimum wage part time jobs,
struggling to keep her head above water..

Folk who don't have time or energy for pontificating on political and constitutional bureaucracy and theory,
how sudden [most probably long term ] hikes in the prices of household essentials
are necessary patriotic sacrifices for 'freedom'.....??????? 😣



There is the usual casual conservative lack of sympathy which we are all accustomed to,
then there is downright malevolent callous disregard of the sinister tory extreme right.....


As for Fararge's old cronies.. who's to say there aren't city speculators somehow gleefully profiteering vastly off brexit..???

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 08:39 AM

So Teribus, you seem quite happy to discuss possibilities of what scenarios of what may happen in the future but do not wish to comment on actualities that have already happened, for example The 10% hike in the cost of computers etc from Dell or the 10%+ fall in the value of the pound against the Euro in the last week or the fact that the pound is at a 31 year low against the dollar.

Strange.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 08:05 AM

What impact on 650 million people SPB? What will happen to them? Will they all suddenly face starvation? economic ruin? Or will they all still continue to get on with their lives and continue to trade but ignore and forget about paying for a corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable bureaucracy and grandiose dreams about a United States of Europe governed by unelected political shysters aka the European Commission.

Foreign/Emergency Aid? If I were you SPB I'd take a good hard look at what the EU promises to deliver in terms of foreign and emergency aid and what it actually delivers - you will find that they are big on promises and very poor when it comes to following through on them.

The UK contributions to such aid dwarfs payments made by the rest of the EU States. To Syria alone the UK has paid more than the EU's top four donating nations - So please do not throw foreign aid into the argument without first checking your facts.

As to moving operations? Where to? What degree of trust do you have in Juncker and the EU Commission? The British Government cannot meddle with the Bank of England, the EU Commission theoretically is not supposed to meddle with the European Central Bank - but that hasn't stopped it from doing so has it? London is counted as being one of the world's must influential and powerful financial centres (Nothing whatsoever to do with being in the EU) because our laws, legal systems and independence inspire confidence and trust.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

Bu using langauge like "the EU is basically toast" indicates that, like Farage, you consider the impact on the lives of over 650,000,000 people a big joke. More so, if you consider the reduction of overseas aid and development if we do not continue our contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:47 AM

Out of that £228B, what percentage are UK founded companies, and what percentage are overseas companies that could easily move their manufacturing bases/base of operations to another EU state if UK can no longer provide the convenience of being part of a single market.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM

A sign of things to come.

Dell Compueter have increased their costs to retailer by 10% as from the 1st July. No doubt a sign if things to come.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/05/dell_confirms_price_rise_post_brexit_vote_as_uk_pound_stumbles/?utm_source=fark&utm_medi




Note that the pound which was trading at 1.30 to the pound is now 1.16 euro to the pound.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:55 AM

getting on our bikes rather than claiming the dole we financed throughout our working lives was your most recent goose-stepping exercise

Unfortunately though Jom, there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into. So when a job that they want does turn up they lose out as their prospective employer looks at their previous track record and then selects another candidate who actually knows what having a job means.

Reality check for you Jom:

1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life.
2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life.
3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population, it is not responsible for looking after the individual who choses to be idle from cradle to grave. Those who envisaged and created the Welfare System in the UK, if they saw it today and the extent to which it is being abused would throw up their arms in despair.

By all means reintroduce the threads you refer to and I will continue to hammer you on fact, chronology, detail, logic, reason and common sense - beats your biased, bigoted, ill-informed opinion and unsubstantiated twaddle any day.

Greg F. - 06 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM

What facts Greg? So far SPB-Cooperator hasn't supplied any facts that stand up to examination. The answers to his questions however are:

1) Nobody.

2) The UK represented 12.5% of the EU and was after Germany it's biggest net contributor. When the UK leaves the EU that will leave a hole that the other ten net contributors will have to make good - without making some form of deal with the UK that will prove difficult for them. In pure trading terms the UK's trade with the EU per year stands at £228 billion, the EU's trade with the UK stands at £282 billion. Within the EU the UK is Germany's best customer, harm the German economy and the EU is basically toast.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 03:00 PM

Ah good heavens I am apparently a "fascist" now am I?"
Been here, done that - keep up.
Anybody who believes that the State is more important than the individual or the family is a classic fascist - that's what fascism is.
You've been pretty unequivocal on this on this forum and in the past - getting on our bikes rather than claiming the dole we financed throughout our working lives was your most recent goose-stepping exercise "betraying your country, springs to mind.
You were challenged than and as usual, chose to ignore it, which I took to be admittance of your position.
You have yet to produce one example of "made up shit" - you did a runner each time it was proved otherwise.
"The fact that you won't will register with anyone reading this thread."
It is you pair of clowns (occasionally joined by Bobad the troll) who constantly find yourselves on your own, not me - want to go back to Easter Week, or WW1 or the Famine threads ; the most recognisable picture we have of you is your back disappearing into the distance - (not forgetting your boorishly loutish behaviour.
Try seeing yourself as others see you
Talking of betraying your country - anything on the fact that the Brexit vote has put the UK's existence at risk - another fact you lot have shown a clean pair of heels on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:53 PM

"If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives"


Tech companies blame price rises on Brexit vote

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM

Gee whiz, SPB, don't confuse the T-Bird with the facts, eh?