BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 12:23 PM

"The EU sell more to us than we sell to the EU "

(1) And who is offering to refund me the increased prices due to the exchange rate - not just imported finished goods, but goods that we manufacture where the EU forms part of the supply chain?

(2)At the moment We are only 10% of the EU's potential internal market. Not a big loss to the EU if we don't purchase but a big loss to us if EU doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:18 AM

apologies for delay.. I slept late after taking sedative antihistamines and forgetting to open the curtains...

Teribus - enjoy amusing yourself so much with my mudcat name..
I've mentioned many times that it was only ever meant as a one off joke taking the piss out of reactionary acoustic folkie bigots..

[my own personal preference is actually for trad folk, sung and played in a simple unadorned trad style, with minimal instrumental accompaniment..]

That was 15 years ago.. I don't even like the name.. but it stuck..
and yet it's purpose continues...

As to why you were fixated on repeatedly copy 'n' pasting "active in audio, recording, and media production"...????

Seems to be just further indication of your prejudices & contempt for activities you consider beneath your position of superiority
as arbiter of what culturally is or not in the national interest...?????

Now on to your lack of sympathy for a hard up hard pressed population experiencing rising prices due to the inevitable drop in value of the £...

An item on my wish list has overnight risen from £16 to £27..
thankfully something I don't need to replace right now.

But as nearly all 'essentials' are manufactured overseas and imported,
and as most of us are already financially overstretched 'recovering' from the banking crisis... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:08 AM

Ah good heavens I am apparently a "fascist" now am I?

Another baseless accusation to add to the list.

Pray tell where I did state that - "we are all subservient to the State"?

Don't worry Jom, we both know that it is just more of your "Made-Up-Shit" and to date you have never been able to come up with any past examples and nobody really expects you to do so now. The fact that you won't will register with anyone reading this thread.

As for setting store by small minorities of 38% of the total electorate, but 52.2% of those who actually did turn out to vote in the EU Referendum (Biggest voter turn out in the UK since 1992) all that means is that I believe in democracy whereas you and such as you patently do not.

Raggytash - 06 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM - More hot air predictions based on S.F.A.

Steve Shaw - 06 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM - So your claim that the vote to Leave means that it is irrevocable is complete and utter bullshit - thanks for the admission - by the way it was Jean-Claude Juncker who stated that the UK could reapply whenever it wanted to at any point in the future.

"I'm amazed at your undemocratic attitude as to who has the right to a say in this country"

Care to give an example of that "undemocratic attitude"? 46.5 million people had a right to vote, where did I gainsay any of them their right to vote? Very close to 3 out of every 4 people who could vote did. What part of the highest voter turn out since 1992 fails to register with you? Have you complained about and wish to reverse every vote taken in the UK since then?

The only person demonstrating any "undemocratic attitude" is you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:04 AM

Good to see that Teribus's yappy dog is by his side. Bet Teribus wishes he had him better trained. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:48 AM

Why don't you all just stop digging, Mr T is making you look stupid ...and Jim see someone about that Fascist/racist conspiracy theory.

Absolute nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:17 AM

Isn't it odd that a fascist like Teribus who syas we are all subservient to the State yet sets such store about such a small minority - and still refuses to acknowledge the damage done to Britain by this vote (not alone there).
jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM

And there you go, prejudging what you think I did in 2011. As it happens, you got that completely wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM

I think it's far greater claptrap to suggest that there's anything other than a cat in hell's chance of us leaving then reapplying. Well I suppose it could happen by the time you and I are 150. 😂 And I was not in the remotest sense suggesting that a war should be entered into via a referendum, simply suggesting a scenario in which less that two-fifths of the country explicitly wanted it then claiming that as the national will. Frankly, the will of the nation has not been proven on the EU, nowhere near. And I'm amazed at your undemocratic attitude as to who has the right to a say in this country. There is no obligation to vote yet there an obligation to pay taxes to pay for government. If I go to my MP's next surgery to protest about this decision, he has absolutely no right to know if I voted or not and he must treat me in the same way as any other constituent of his. If I sign a petition calling for a second referendum there is no qualifying box to tick which asks me whether or not I voted in the first one. Not everyone who fails to vote does it out of laziness or forgetfulness and you have no right to prejudge their motive, or lack of it, for not doing so. If you want to accuse other people of having undemocratic attitudes, you really do need to put your own house in order first.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM

Your knowledge of Macro-economics seem to be somewhat lacking, so you revert to what you do best which is to shout I AM RIGHT from the rooftops in the vain hope that someone may believe you.

Do you not understand what Kenneth Clarke said, that outside of the single market we will not have a glorious economic future. To put it bluntly we may well be f**ked. We will lose jobs, we will lose job security, we will lose some of the protection in employment that has been fought for.

Not that you will care a toss for the poor buggers who will suffer. I suspect like me, you are retired, collect your pension and live a reasonable life. It is not us that will be one's who suffer but our children and grandchildren.

The one's you and the other out voters have sold down the river.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:10 AM

We WILL be outside that market and you seem to think we will still be able to trade on the same footing as we do now. We will not. The EU will not allow that, that is one of it's functions to protect those who are part of it, which we will no longer be very shortly thanks to the leave vote." - Raggy

Show me where I have ever said or thought that - "we will still be able to trade {With the EU} on the same footing as we do now" - I think that you will find that I have stated that the basis upon which we trade with the EU will have to be negotiated and at the moment Raggy neither you nor I know what the outcome of such negotiations will be. That negotiations WILL take place is undoubted - The EU sell more to us than we sell to the EU - which means Raggy if the point is not too difficult for you to grasp, if they do not negotiate a deal THEY end up worse off in terms of lost trade and lost jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:51 AM

Steve Shaw - 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

What complete and utter twaddle.

1:   But this is not a game. This is an irrevocable, once-and-for-all decision. It is far more serious even then a general election in many regards. It is also lopsided in that a leave vote is irrevocable whilst a remain vote could easily be (and almost certainly would have been) revisited. The Irish had another pot at Lisbon. The Scots will probably have another pot at independence. But when we're out, were out. No way back, no second bash.

Where on earth did you get that claptrap from? Where does it say ANYWHERE that having invoked Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that the UK CANNOT reapply for membership of the EU - Go off and check Shaw and you find that nothing about leaving is irrevocable.


2: You may be happy with first past 50% of those who turned out in this vote but I'm not.

Too bad for you then Shaw, we had a referendum on that as well in 2011 and it would appear that you were on the losing side of that one as well.


3: The plain fact is that slightly more than one-third of the electorate, who disagree with the overwhelming majority of our elected representatives, are dragging this country out of the EU

Unfortunately in a referendum the elected representatives have exactly the same rights as the electorate and members of the Lords. The Elected Representatives cannot complain about the referendum as they had to debate an Act of Parliament to hold one.


4: In this country, by the way, if someone doesn't turn out to vote they are not disfranchised. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else. We call that democracy. And in no way am I trying to claim that the 28% who didn't vote would have voted my way. What I am saying is that 38% of the electorate voting leave is not the same thing at all as "the nation has spoken."

In this country if someone doesn't turn out to vote then THEY have squandered their vote and disenfranchised themselves on that particular issue. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else and all the same rights up until the polling stations closed, after which their views as irrelevant as they did not bother to vote. And YES on the subject of Should the UK Remain or Leave the EU then 38% of the electorate voting to Leave DOES show the will of the nation.

5: Imagine us being dragged into WW3 on the basis of 38% of the electorate choosing war. Wow.

Idiotic argument Shaw and you know it - decisions as to whether or not the nation goes to war would never be decided by a referendum by the time the ballot papers had been printed we'd have lost it, you clown.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:36 AM

I do find it strange that you are one of the people who complain most vociferously against personal abuse but are one of it's main protagonists.

It also seems that you cannot read Teribus.

What Kenneth Clarke said was "she is not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside of the single market"

We WILL be outside that market and you seem to think we will still be able to trade on the same footing as we do now. We will not. The EU will not allow that, that is one of it's functions to protect those who are part of it, which we will no longer be very shortly thanks to the leave vote.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:19 AM

A number of points Raggy -

First:
Most people seem to have better access to facts than you do judging by what you post here.

Second:
Kenneth Clarke is well known for his lifelong commitment to the EU, so hardly impartial, irrespective of who he is talking to on the subject. The person he was talking to by the way appeared to Malcolm Rifkind.

Third:
When have I ever stated any likelihood of any economic future for this country that did not include trading relations with Europe? We just do not have to be in the EU to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

Well that response doesn't surprise me in the least, Teribus. But this is not a game. This is an irrevocable, once-and-for-all decision. It is far more serious even then a general election in many regards. It is also lopsided in that a leave vote is irrevocable whilst a remain vote could easily be (and almost certainly would have been) revisited. The Irish had another pot at Lisbon. The Scots will probably have another pot at independence. But when we're out, were out. No way back, no second bash. You may be happy with first past 50% of those who turned out in this vote but I'm not. The plain fact is that slightly more than one-third of the electorate, who disagree with the overwhelming majority of our elected representatives, are dragging this country out of the EU (and I notice you haven't bothered to address the serious deficiencies of the campaign I mentioned - uncomfortable for both sides but more especially for leave, whose promises on immigration can't be kept). In this country, by the way, if someone doesn't turn out to vote they are not disfranchised. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else. We call that democracy. And in no way am I trying to claim that the 28% who didn't vote would have voted my way. What I am saying is that 38% of the electorate voting leave is not the same thing at all as "the nation has spoken." If you were in a board meeting and fewer than four board members out of ten voted for a resolution, you would not be able to come out of the meeting declaring that "the board has spoken." The 50% threshold for a decision of this magnitude is simply not good enough. Imagine us being dragged into WW3 on the basis of 38% of the electorate choosing war. Wow.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:32 AM

Oh just that he probably has greater access to information and facts than I do. He was not electioneering but speaking privately to a colleague and thus what he said is more likely to be an honest assessment of the situation.

Referring to Leadsom he says "she is not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside of the single market"

The sort of glorious economic future you maintain we can have.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:20 AM

Any particular reason why anyone blessed with a mind of their own should Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

The Tory leadership election is a sort of X Factor for choosing the antichrist

For those with a sense of humor and a lesson in character assassination

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

Kenneth Clarke

I notice neither of the "opposition" on this forum have made any reference to the words of the Tory Grandee Kenneth Clarke

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM

Steve Shaw - 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM

The thing is, Teribus, less than 38% of the total electorate, about 17 million out of 46.5 million entitled to vote, have forced an irrevocable decision on this country.


EHmmmm No Steve, the thing is that on the 23rd June 2016, 46.5 million people in the UK were registered to vote and eligible to vote in the EU Referendum. Out of that number ~17.5 million voted to leave and ~16.2 million voted to remain. Which means that out of 46.5 million people only ~34 million could be bothered to haul their backsides down to the Polling Station to vote, or be arsed enough to post their postal ballot. If you do not vote in a referendum that forces an irrevocable decision on this country then you have got absolutely no right to complain about the result, every single one of those 46.5 million people had their chance to vote 33,551,983 actually took it and cast their votes in the correct manner - That Steve Shaw - is the thing - And the ones who swung it for the Leave Campaign - traditional Labour Voters in England.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:48 AM

"Besides I am not the one complaining about the referendum or the result."
A hell of a lot of people are - it seems that a lot of people care more about the damage that has been done to Britain by this racist based decision than you do.
I assume that we've finished with the "pensions" bit?
Noticeable that, like all bullies, all you have to do is stand up to them and they do a runner - spineless lot of feckers - all blow and no substance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 01:58 AM

As you said punkfolkrocker - 05 Jul 16 - 07:53 PM IF Teribus was ..... Fortunately he isn't, I can tell you with 100% certainty that he is no fan of nationalism of any sort and, having been himself a volunteer, would enthusiastically conscript no-one.

Not surprised at all that whatever it is that you have to buy to keep yourself "active in audio, recording, and media production" as a punkfolkrocker comes from the far east in which case the being in the EU is of f**k all help as ever since Lisbon was signed by some secret back door conniving the EU has not successfully negotiated any international trade deal with anyone. The EU as an organisation is corrupt, protectionist, inward looking, unaccountable and inefficient, a cosy club set up solely for the benefit of Germany and France that has wrecked havoc in the weaker economies of the southern EU states - and this you want to shackle us to???

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 09:44 PM

It's taken me this long to remember the last British manufactured musical equipment I purchased..

approx 8 years ago, for my 50th, I treated myself to 2 amplifiers made by the Laney, and Hayden Companies.
[managed to get a few hundred quid off each..]

Marketed as made in UK; near certainty they were assembled in the UK from mostly Chinese components.
With a significant retail price mark up, compared to if they had been entirely assembled in China and imported complete.

Personally I think it would be brilliant if 'Made in Britain' meant exactly that,
and we could return to the legendary era of genuine UK Vox, Marshall, Burns, Ferrograph, etc standards of manufacture and affordability.

They weren't the cheapest, but a buyer would be assured they could last decades.

Marshall still make limited runs of real hand build UK amps,
but they are the equivalent of Rolls & Bentley pricing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 09:19 PM

Personally, as someone ... who has shouldered all of their responsibilities for as long as I have...

Do much staring at your reflection, do you Terrinarcissus?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM

The thing is, Teribus, less than 38% of the total electorate, about 17 million out of 46.5 million entitied to vote, have forced an irrevocable decision on this country. The irrevocable bit is crucial and it's what makes this different from general elections, which, given five years, can be reversed. And that's before we even start to consider the illegitimate grounds on which the campaign was fought, which prioritised feeding prejudice and stoking fear rather than informing people. There should have been a threshold turnout requirement and a threshold majority requirement, and, as the latter involved a suggested massive change to the status quo, it should have been a two-thirds majority at least. Rather than shrugging your shoulders smugly at your "victory," I should like to see you trying to justify the arguments put during the campaign by your side. You could start with the Farage poster. Awkward, eh? It's also notable to see how many Brexiteers are now jumping ship. Boris gone, Farage gone, and, very likely, Gove gone (by design, I'm almost certain), not sticking around to tell us what's going to happen next. Bloody cowards. They've all got what they absolutely didn't expect and now they're running scared.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:15 PM

Teribus - btw forgot to mention.. stick to pontificating on the dreary subjects you claim to have such advanced knowledge of...

Your last post makes you look seriously out of touch and rather silly...


My 'top line equipment' is mass manufactured in the far east.
and is sufficiently state of the art for hundreds of thousands, if not millions
of contemporary UK audio visual practitioners.

What pitiful little that still remains of UK manufacture, is prohibitively priced cottage workshop engineering...
conspicuous consumption status sybols for the elite few.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:53 PM

Smug beyond sense & reason...

If Teribus is the kind of nationalist who would enthusiastically conscript young men to fight and die for his beloved nation,
why would he care how many were musicians, artists, poets, and all other useless creative arty farty types....???

I try to look for the best in people,
and although I tend to respect his articulate written skills,
his posts reek of conceit and hostility, portraying himself as a hateful spiteful old man...

So why is he even a mudcat member..???
he better have a damn good singing voice, or mastery of a musical instrument
to make up for his apparent contempt for 21st century creative people.....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM

Raggytash wrote: Why do I think I am reading a bitter and twisted old man?

Because you wrote it?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:03 PM

Why do I think I am reading a bitter and twisted old man?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 06:49 PM

Well GregF, pfr put that up as a possible reason for someone to evaluate as to whether or not it worth while to vote Remain or Leave. IMHO it would not make the slightest difference if one was "active in audio, recording, and media production" as the consummate professional anyone calling themselves a punkfolkrocker they would insist and ensure that they had top-line equipment in order to keep themselves "active in audio, recording, and media production" world. Personally, as someone of absolutely no importance at all, who has shouldered all of their responsibilities for as long as I have, I would imagine that many other criteria would feature long before considerations relating to being "active in audio, recording, and media production".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:43 PM

I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country.

Amusing coming from a person of no importance whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:59 PM

"Are you " active in audio, recording, and media production" pfr? I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country."...??????

Are you making a point that is any way not dismissive and condescending to all of the amateur and semi pro, and most pro artists here at mudcat...???

Do we have to be awarded a Queens's honour to count as worthwhile for the nation...???



Why are you here at a folk music site...???

after all.. what use could music or culture possibly be to outrageously pompous old rules 'n' policies obsessed bureaucrats..???

oh.. of course Trad British folk is perhaps the only tolerable culture for mean spirited nationalists..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:57 PM

I have been shouldering my responsibilities for over 50 years Stu, and have not made too bad a job of them. Besides I am not the one complaining about the referendum or the result. Others here were of the opinion that a Remain vote was so certain they even posted before the result was known that those Brexit supporters should show their respect for democracy and bow to the "will of the people" - but of course they are and proved themselves to be great believers in "One law for the Goose another for the Gander" such is their commitment to democracy.

Of course it is going to work irrespective of whether or not the UK is in or out of the EU. Hell if a decision to trigger Article 50 was taken in the UK tomorrow we would still be in the EU for at least the next two-and-a-half years, possibly three. Its the likes of you who appear to be running around like headless chickens bemoaning ills that have not even presented themselves so far. The world is a big place, far bigger than Europe, over the last three years our trade with that world has been ever increasing, while that with Europe has been declining. Easier for us negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world as a member of the EU? Don't make me laugh, ask Switzerland and Singapore who have in the last couple of decades made five times the number of foreign trade deals than the EU have - WHY? because they can do so without recourse to asking anyone else's permission to do so.

The link? cannot think what went wrong with it - but it is from the Guinard - basically tells you that the FTSE has risen about 5.5% since the referendum result became known - some drop in two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:33 PM

"If you don't like the result?? TOUGH."

Nope. Time for you to shoulder your responsibility and make this work rather than gloat. Time to show your mettle.

Also, your link returns a 404.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

Are you " active in audio, recording, and media production" pfr? I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

buy UK alternatives

assuming, of course, that there are any.......

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:28 PM

"If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives

Great advice for musicians, and anyone active in audio, recording, and media production....

The last british manufactured equipment many of us could actually afford was approx 35 years ago... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:16 PM

And who Raggy for one nano-second reckons that the UK will not trade with EU on mutually agreed terms - certainly NOT the Germans - they need us to buy their stuff more than we need them to buy ours.

If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives, in the meantime our goods and services have just got cheaper for foreign buyers boosting exports and foreign currency earnings - TRUE?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 12:37 PM

Interesting comment from Kenneth Clarke that perhaps some of the "leavers" on this site may want to consider.

Referring to Andrea Leadsom he said "she not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a glorious economic future outside the single market"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM

" does that mean that Jom's UK pension paid in £Sterling which then has to be converted to Euros has taken a hit? Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly? ~
Blame somebody else as you did when the Northern Irish economy took a smack (then it was the quaintly archaic 'gombeen men")
The entire econimy of Europe and beyong stands to suffer after this stupidly bigoted decision to leave - pensions being just one of those effected
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/pensions/brexit-400000-britons-living-on-the-continent-could-have-state-pensions-frozen-a6898756.html
"God help democracy and the democratic process in this country if it does not "
Would tat be the "democracy" that you claim makes us answerable to the State rather than the other way around?
Your Fascism and Democracy are contradictions in terms.
GLOBAL ECONOMY
"Jom's"
I can always tell when you're bluffing - your typing finger tens to shake.
Grow up, for fuck's sake!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

"Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly?"

What!?! Last week the exchange rate was slightly over 1.30 euro to the pound. Today it is under 1.17 euro to the pound.

A drop of more than 10% So all our new imports will now cost 10% more than they did last week.

Is this supposed to be good news?

What planet are you on.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 10:54 AM

What Stu means by falling off a cliff

As the Republic of Ireland use the Euro (Which they originally did not want to do and voted so in a Referendum) does that mean that Jom's UK pension paid in £Sterling which then has to be converted to Euros has taken a hit? Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly? Remembering of course that the UK Government only has to look after it's own currency and economy, while Germany has to look after the EU's Eurozone.

I think that MGOH is perfectly correct the Leave vote and the referendum result will stand - God help democracy and the democratic process in this country if it does not - as the lesson that will strike home will be that anybody has the right to overturn anything if it does not suit them. The entire electorate of the country plus all UK Expats living in the EU had the opportunity to vote in the duly constituted EU Referendum on the 23th June 2016. Voter turn out was the highest seen for nearly one quarter of a century, which kinda suggests that those who wanted to vote did. If you don't like the result?? TOUGH.

The sky will not fall in, the world will continue to turn, politicians, civil servants, financiers and businessmen will continue to do what they always do - WHY?? Because it is in their MUTUAL best interests to negotiate deals and keep the train on the tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 10:07 AM

Hi Nigel

<" but for many it was about repatriation: Repatriating powers to UK Parliament ">

You are absolutely right.

Cheers

MNike

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM

What do you suggest Nigel - that immigrants be repatriated and their homes and jobs be offered to returnees - that would be a shift to ne Apartheid, racially pure Britain now, wouldn't it?
I have made no such suggestion. Even Farage & Johnson have both made clear that they have no intention of repatriating those who already here legally. The point of regaining control of our own borders is just to allow the country to set limits on future immigration from the EU, as we already have the power to restrict immigration from outside the EU. How this equates to being 'racist' I fail to see. (many of those who would be caught by such measures are, in view of their being from the EU, Caucasians, just as I am.
Also I disagree that this was fought on a single issue. Those voting for leave may have been swayed by that issue, but for many it was about repatriation: Repatriating powers to UK Parliament

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM

Business confidence is dropping off a cliff as the Leavers bicker and jostle for power without any coherent plan for Brexit. This avoidance of responsibility is totally unacceptable, they need to get on with sorting their mess out.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:59 AM

"This sentence does not mention mainland Europe and neither do the other"
Meaning what? - there are that many Britons who stand to be sent back to a Britain that is unable to offer them a home of their own or employment
What do you suggest Nigel - that immigrants be repatriated and their homes and jobs be offered to returnees - that would be a shift to ne Apartheid, racially pure Britain now, wouldn't it?
Shortly after the result over a million people announced that they regretted voting the way they did and had only done so as a protest vote - they described their reasons for voting as they dis as having been told "lies" - that doubt has been confirmed by the lies already exposed and will grow as the full consequences become apparent.
This contest was fought on a single issue - immigration - and it has shamed Britain.
I attended a music conference last week made up of people from several nations - everyone I met condemned the decision outright.
Nobody here yet has had the bottle to comment of the possible break-up of the U.K. - presumably they don't care.
I never thought I'd ever live to see Britain voting on a racist issue (let's face it, the economic consequences were well-enough predicted, and fairly obvious).
Such an important decision should have required a considerable majority in favour in order to have been passed - less that %2 was irresponsible.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM

As ruthlessly demonstrated.. the ends justify the means as far as Gove is concerned...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:32 PM

Here's my two-pennorth for what it's worth (about E0.024 at the last count). Although I was deeply disappointed by the result, I was resigned to accepting it. Then the Leavers started to shilly-shally and go back on their promises. Then I read this by A C Grayling, someone whose opinions I greatly respect, and my scepticism deepened.

Right now I think that the Leave negotiators (whoever they might be) need to give guarantees that they can make good the promises on which they won the vote. If that's not possible (and I can't see how it could be) then they should not press the Article 50 button and start the countdown. Simplistic? Maybe, but otherwise we are taking a huge step in the dark.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

My point, which I may have failed to make clear, is that Jim's statements are pointless.
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
This sentence does not mention mainland Europe and neither do the other "facts" I quoted. As such the figures must be taken as inclusive of persons living in Britain. This makes the "fact" pointless in advancing Jim's arguments.

As Jim went on to say that it is hard to get responses on these facts, it would help if the meaning of the facts was made clear. It might just be that he uses 'Europe' to mean 'all of Europe except the UK' but that changes the meaning of his words.

If the facts are presented clearly and unambiguously then they can be either argued with, or accepted. But while they are ambiguous it is pointless trying to refute them.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

I always examine cheques carefully.

Jim, re the ☺·faces·☺ — On  - which my computer is - there is a 'special characters' app which one accesses by scrolling down to the bottom of Edit on the header menu. Don't know about other computers, but I expect such an amenity must be thereabouts somewhere.

No sweat about the Married In Green note. Sorry to hear of your troubles & travails. Look forward to your comments in duke-horse, but no rush.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM

Michael, one word of advice.....examine that cheque carefully   ;0)