BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

Is this a price worth paying?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM

So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???

Though on the other hand, we'll probably no longer have the incentive of lower prices in Europe....????? ☹

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM

Teribus asks:
What percentage of Irish EU trade is with the UK?

16%.

I'm really sorry to see Britain - England, really - vote itself out of the EU. Apparently the EU has done terrible things to it. I don't know what they are.

I've seen the EU behave badly: over the refugees streaming out from under the bombs raining down on Syria and Afghanistan, and running north from the horrors of Somalia - our descendants will look at us the way that we look at the British over the Famine in Ireland. I've seen the EU behave badly over Greese; I'll never forget the sight of Tsipras, the new Greek prime minister, come cringing like a beaten dog out of his first meeting with the bullies. They haven't behaved well towards Ireland, where a completely innocent population has been forced to pay the debts of crooked bankers interlocked with other international crooks.

But in terms of legislation, the EU has been a force for good since it started; we'd have had a long wait for equal pay for women, and for all kinds of other worker rights and human decencies, if we were a bunch of separate little nations in competition.

A bad day for Europe, a bad day for Britain, and they've really screwed Ireland.

Think of this one little example: since most of Ireland's imported food (like most of Britain's) comes from the EU, it has been found convenient to supply it through British centres that have treated Ireland as a 'region'. If this continues, Ireland will have massively inflated food prices due to customs, tariffs and two changes of currency - out of the euro into the pound; out of the pound again into the euro. If the system is changed and the food flies directly from Europe, it will still be expensive, due to the loss of economies of scale.

I know they weren't thinking of us, or of anyone except themselves, but - Albion perfide.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."
Individually, these two voted to leave - they are both States in their own right, however Empire Loyalists might consider them.
If things continue where they are heading at present, it will all be academic - Great Britain will fragment
"They can ask for whatever they want, the timing is, by Treaty, set by the UK."
Let's see, shall we.
These are extraordinary circumstances.
We are witnessing an extremist right wing putsch in Europe at present.
Austria has recently narrowly avoided electing a neo-Fascist party into power, Mm Le Pen's party is on the rise in France, extremist groups in The Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and Italy have made calls to leave the E.U.   
Brexit contagion
The Brexits fought their campaign on a racist ticket; Farage has already been linked to the European far right, and Johnson has echoed Ukip's anti-emigrant stance - neither are to be trusted not to throw their lot in with the European extreme right.
"And that should be the concern of the UK how? "
Because Britain has just taken a step which has caused those price-rises ans whatever you personally might think of the Irish, Britain is responsible for whatever happens in Great Britain and ids duty bound to put right whatever damage has been done - that is what being part of Great Britain is all about me little Kluxer.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:25 PM

"So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???"

As soon as you like pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:38 PM

"As soon as you like pfr."


I don't want to ever.. right.. solved that then, thanks...

If only the rest of LEAVE were as reasonable as you...????? 🙄

Be nice if Boris and Farage should dip their hands in their pockets to reimburse us for any of our hard earned £££S losses caused by their monomaniac ideological over eagerness.....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM

Bugger. Got me facts wrong there. I forgot that Boris got a seat last time out. However, you don't have to be an MP to be PM. Sir Alec was PM for three weeks whilst being neither in the Commons nor the Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 PM

Ah so it is the duty and responsibility of the British electorate to take into account and put the interests of other nations before their those of their own?? Dream On.

The Republic of Ireland's top three trading partners in descending order of importance are - The USA: the UK; Belgium.

"SPB-Cooperator - 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

Is this a price worth paying?

No idea SPB what price have you paid so far?

Yes Jom by all means let's see if the EU Commission will abide by the rules that they themselves imposed upon the EU member states - If they don't then they will demonstrate quite clearly why the UK vote to leave what will have been proven to be a corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable dictatorship was the correct thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:11 PM

The referendum has been won...."Get used to it"
All the whining on here will change nothing we are thankfully out of project Euro and can now start to govern ourselves.

I'm fed up with the abuse being aimed at Nigel Farage, without him there would have been no referendum, for a while he fought the system single handed, demonised by every power hungry party in the country, demonised by every news paper.

He should be a candidate for politician of the year....the man has balls of steel.

Jim says... he is a racist and anti- immigrant, that is untrue he is simply against the free movement of people within the EU and you don't need to be a brain surgeon to see why.
Free movement would be perhaps acceptable if the playing field was level but there will never be mass migration of unskilled labour from the UK to Eastern Europe ......who wants to work for a quarter of what they can make at home.....and no benefits, poor health service and life in a squat?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM

100 years from now.. will historians evaluate Farrage in the same way we regard Oswald Mosley & Lord Haw-Haw...??? 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:32 PM

"the man has balls of steel."..... plural...???

errrrmmmmm... something else he may share in common with another 'great' leader from 20th Century history.... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM

How different things would be if David Cameron had agreed to the demand to make victory for the leavers dependant on their winning in all four parts of the UK. I've never seen any explanation as to why he made a decision like that. Sheer stupidity and arrogance?

The other thing that would have made all the difference is if migrants from EU countries had had the same right to vote as those from Pakistan and India and other Commonwealth countries. In the Scottish referendum they were allowed to vote. So were 16 and 17 year olds.

Three ways out which would have made all the difference, all perfectly justifiable in terms of democratic principles.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:08 PM

Or perhaps requiring a clear significant majority either way for an unconditional win..
..and a possible 2nd round for less than, let's say, 5 - 10 % 'victory'...???

.. or maybe a penalty shoot out...?????? errrrmm.. footballs, not bullets.....🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:12 PM

So far as the timetable for leaving, it is obvious that both parties will be trying to arrange this in the way that is most convenient, rather than bending over backwards to suit the other side.

Obviously for the EU it makes sense that, if the UK it should do so as promptly as possible. That means, the two years provided for, quite long enough.

That might not suit the Conservative Party, but so what?

I imagine a fair compromise will be reached. If the Conservatives will have a new leader, and the country a new Prime Minister, by October, that would be a reasonable date for the two year countdown to start.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:35 PM

The referendum has been won...."Get used to it"

And the fallout therefrom is just beginning - get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:04 PM

I nearly fell out of my standing reading the New Yorker's claim today that America (home of mass shootings, of ordinary people having multiple guns at home, of state executions, of racial discrimination, of sub-prime mortgages, of state assassinations of foreign citizens without trial…) is now the home of liberalism!

Teribus - should the English have considered other nations when voting on their own future? Not what I was suggesting; I was saying you rightly screwed us over, but perhaps that should not be unexpected.

It might be more worrying to consider that you rightly screwed yourselves over, from the look of the economic readouts. As a joker on Twitter said today, "Don't forget that we can restore the value of Sterling simply by buying pounds off each other. I'm offering 30p each."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:51 AM

More potential job losses ???

Link

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM

"All the whining on here will change nothing we are thankfully out of project Euro and can now start to govern ourselves"
Who is "ourselves?
You live in Scotland, don't you?
Scotland voted to leave and is quite likely to call for another Independence referendum, as is Northern Ireland - if they succeed they will apply to join the E.U. - if is in their economic interests to do so - will you learn to live with that?
This appalling marginal result has split Britain down the middle, has threatened the future of the no longer United Kingdom, has undermined British investment abroad, stands to impoverish the already struggling working people of these Islands and threatens to have produced a political moron and an ale-swilling racist as British leaders - as long as it gets rid of the wogs eh?
Pity homosexuals couldn't have been included in the campaign!
A Pyrrhic vctory, I think you'll find - the more astute Brexists are already beginning to recognise that fact
SECOND THOUGHTS

Insights
". Bit of profiteering by the latter-day "Gombeen Men" Jim?"
Your hatred of Ireland has long been established but blaming local businesses for problems that are due to hit Britain big-time as the economy continues to nose dive continues to confirm it.
Your quaint, archaic use of the term 'gombeen' shows how out-of-touch you are on the people you hate.
Whatever it's origins, it is a term that has been applied almost exclusively to self-serving politicians over the last few decades.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM

"It's like Trump going to West Virginia and saying it's all going to be great," Blanchflower said. "Trump can't help them. But you can see why they would want change."

"At some level it is a cry of frustration but one that could end up hurting an already economically harmed part of the population," says Eswar Prasad, an economics professor at Cornell University and former official at the International Monetary Fund. "That is the remarkable irony here."

William Galston, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, said Brexit voters were "startlingly" similar to Trump's coalition: More likely to be older, with less education, and more likely to oppose immigration.

Listening to British television coverage of the vote, "I could have shut my eyes and altered the accents, and I would have thought they were talking about the American election," he said.

"Why would you locate in the U.K.?" asked Desmond Lachman, resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and former IMF official. "You don't know what kind of access you'll have to the (EU). Why not just wait?"

Complete Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM

So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???

Though on the other hand, we'll probably no longer have the incentive of lower prices in Europe....????? ☹

Import duties (if any) would be imposed by the UK, so, if there are no new tariffs you don't need to worry about that. (this is something Mr Cameron was rather disingenuous about, claiming that prices would go up due to import tariffs. It is our government which would impose those tariffs)
If you have to pay VAT on bringing the goods in then that will cost you an additional 1% of the value. (on the basis that you will no longer be paying German VAT of 19%)

If you're bringing in goods from Italy you will save, as their current rate is 22%

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:24 PM

I see the Scottish government is arguing that there is a precedent for Scotland and Northern Ireland to stay in the EU even if England and Wales get out.

Constitutionally Greenland is still a largely self governing part of Denmark, and some years ago it pulled out of the then European Communities. But Denmark is still in the EU.

Sounds logical to me. And if the Scottish Assembly refuses to agree to Brexit, I can't see how it can go ahead. After all, it was only an advisory referendum. It doesn't in itself carry any legal force whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:31 PM

And if the Scottish Assembly refuses to agree to Brexit, I can't see how it can go ahead. After all, it was only an advisory referendum. It doesn't in itself carry any legal force whatsoever.
Of course, that argument works both ways. If it was only advisory then although Scotland have said they don't want to leave, if the UK leaves, Scotland's votes were only advisory!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:35 PM

In case it's not obvious, I voted to leave. And I'm glad that the majority of the voting UK population agreed with my view.

I was hoodwinked back in the 70s. I won't make that mistake again.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

I think I voted the right way in 1975 - when I voted for the U K to get out, at an early stage. I thought that sooner or later the British presence would harm Europe.

I voted this time to stay, and I think that was consistent. I thought that by this time Brexit would cause terrible harm to both parties - and all the signs at present seem to indicate I was right.

A bit like the difference between Pulling out a dodgy tooth, and chopping off a limb.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

I think I voted the right way in 1975 - when I voted for the U K to get out, at an early stage. I thought that sooner or later the British presence would harm Europe.

I voted this time to stay, and I think that was consistent. I thought that by this time Brexit would cause terrible harm to both parties - and all the signs at present seem to indicate I was right.

A bit like the difference between pulling out a dodgy tooth, and chopping off a limb.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:39 PM

And maybe the only bright spot with Brexit - it removes the government most favourable to the proposed TTIP treaty from the picture so far as the EU is concerned, making it significantly less likely.

Now if only Obama's promise the outside the EU the UK would be "at the back of the queue" turns out to be right...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:51 PM

McGrath writes:
I see the Scottish government is arguing that there is a precedent for Scotland and Northern Ireland to stay in the EU even if England and Wales get out.

One difficulty here, McGrath. The EU tends to work on the Napoleonic code rather than the British common law.
The British system (which we inherited and continued to use as our legal logic in Ireland, by the way, and which I think the US did as well) bases laws on previous precedents.
The Napoleonic code works differently, lawyers tell me - instead of using precedent, each law is worked out intellectually, using the logic of the individual situation.
So the precedent may not be so important as it would be in a historically Anglo society.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:13 PM

I think that Sturgeon has already been told by EU officials what Salmond was told back in 2014 - Scotland is not a member of the EU the UK is. The UK has decided democratically to leave the EU - if Scotland wishes to joint the EU it must do so by applying to join once Scotland becomes an independent country - not before.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:12 PM

Of course it needn't apply to join, if the conditions weren't satisfactory in some respects. Scotland doesn't have too many worries about freedom of movement, so an agreement analogous to Norway or Switzerland would be a real option, if they didn't fancy the euro.

In the circumstances of Brexit I think Scottish joining the EU would be viewed pretty favourably by other members, I'd think. Even Spain would be less likely to see it as a dangerous precedent for Catalonia.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

That is what you THINK Kevin, please do not attempt to propose it as something the EU would automatically jump at - you personally have no way of knowing that, neither does any member of the Scottish Government. You seem to be arguing as though only Scottish views must be taken into account - look at it from the EU's point of view, would Scotland be a net contributor or would an independent Scotland be a drain on EU resources - with the EU's second largest contributor walking out of the door, that is how the EU will look at it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 08:32 PM

Of course it's "only what I think". That applies to all this speculation.

You wanted Brexit because it makes sense to you. I opposed it because it did not make sense to me, and because I believed it will do enormous harm to many many people.

Sooner or later it may be possible to judge who was right. But nobody will ever know what the outcome of a vote to stay might have been. As with Iraq, they'll still be arguing in 100 years.

No one knows whether Scottish independence is on the way. If it does come, in the context of the rest of the UK exit, I doubt if there would be significant difficulties for Scotland joining, or getting a free trade agreement analogous to Norway and Switzerland. But of course nothing is certain. It never is.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Bugsy
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 09:09 PM

Much as I feel for the people who voted "Remain" (I would have done the same had i still been living in UK)and understand the preening being done by SOME of the "Leave" posters on this thread,it's time to put all that behind you.

IT'S DONE. Now EVERYONE has to band together to make the best of what lies ahead.

I wish you all the best of luck for the future, and, sad to say, I'm glad I'm out of it all and living in Australa.

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 11:38 AM

Having Won, 'Brexit' Campaigners Begin Backpedaling

By STEPHEN CASTLE, NY Times   JUNE 26, 2016

LONDON — Freed from the shackles of the European Union, Britain's economy would prosper and its security would increase. Britain would "take back control" of immigration, reducing the number of arrivals. And it would be able to spend about 350 million pounds, or about $470 million, a week more on health care instead of sending the money to Brussels.

Before Thursday's referendum on the country's membership in the 28-nation bloc, campaigners for British withdrawal, known as Brexit, tossed out promises of a better future while dismissing concerns raised by a host of scholars and experts as "Project Fear."

But that was before they won.

Perhaps no promise was more audacious — and mendacious, critics say — than the £350-million-a-week claim. Boris Johnson, the former mayor of London who was the frontman of the Brexit campaign, toured Britain in a bus emblazoned with the slogan: "We send the E.U. £350 million a week, let's fund our N.H.S. instead," a reference to the country's widely revered National Health Service.

Hours after proclaiming "independence day" for Britain, Nigel Farage, the leader of the fiercely anti-European U.K. Independence Party, conceded that the £350 million figure was a "mistake." The shift was perhaps unsurprising, since the £350 million "independence dividend" never stood up to scrutiny.

Promises to quickly reduce immigration levels are also being played down. Migration was the cornerstone of the Leave campaign, which objected to the European Union's insistence on the free movement of labor, capital, goods and services.

On Friday, the day after the referendum, Daniel Hannan, a member of the European Parliament and one of the most knowledgeable advocates of Brexit, stunned some viewers of the BBC by saying: "Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the E.U., they are going to be disappointed."


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/27/world/europe/having-won-some-brexit-campaigners-begin-backpedaling.html?_r=0

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM

The aftermath of the vote has yet to lead to clarity. Heard this morning on the local news that BR/EXIT will not be good for the Alaska economy as it will lead to lower crude oil prices. Still trying to suss that one out.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:33 PM

The UK credit rating has just been reduced fro AAA to AA. Well, it is all going swimmingly so far...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM

On 17th May Farage said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

Well, the boot's on the other foot and it's not over. We will now hold the brexiters to account and try to salvage some good from this nightmare before we descend into the hell the next elitist etonian establishmentarian and his lickspittles will visit upon us.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 07:15 PM

It is over...believe me you may whine and complain all you like but we are on the way out of the EU.

Had the vote gone the other way Mr Farage could have pressed for another referendum whenever he chose, but the vote was OUT and when that button is pushed we are out.

Of course we could apply for re-admission, but that would be highly unlikely to be successful........"Get used to it!!"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 08:05 PM

but the vote was OUT and when that button is pushed we are out.

Not hardly, Ake. Educate yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 08:33 PM

The point was that if the vote had been the other way, it would have been perfectly possible to have a second vote any time parliament wanted one. Or any number of votes, until a vote for leaving won.

That was the asymmetry that was built in, and many people failed to appreciate. Those who were firmly for Brexit rightly voted for it. But anyone who was less than 100% for it, or who was undecided, was acting irrationally in voting for it. You have to be 100 per cent sure if you want to divorce your partner. Which is why divorces involve a decree nisi before the decree absolute.

The whole thing is like the shops with the rule "if you break it, you've bought it".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM

An Englishman, a Scot, and an Irishman went into a bar...

The Englishman wanted to leave, so they all had to.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 01:22 AM

robomatic wrote: The Englishman wanted to leave, so they all had to.

Perhaps the Englishman was the only one with money.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:02 AM

The pound continues to fall against the Euro, today my source is offering 1.19 Euro as against 1.30 Euro last Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:30 AM

"Get used to it!!"

Nope. I'm not going to roll over an lay down whilst the country is delivered lock, stock and barrel into the hands of the establishment, will combat the legitimacy that racism seems to have gained in the eyes of some ("I'm not a racist, but..."), watch as my fellow citizens suffer the depravations the old Etonians the Brexit folk care for so much will visit upon us come the next budget.

The poor will pay for this, and it's essential the lying demagogue Farage is kept away from power; he's unelected, despises the poor and above all, is a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:25 AM

into the hands of the establishment

The establishment wanted to remain.
By a small majority, ordinary folk said no.

Before Farage there was no-one in politics who spoke for that majority, and but for UKIP threatening the Tory vote they would never have allowed a referendum at all.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:06 AM

"The establishment wanted to remain."


So you think Johnson, Gove et al are outside the establishment? Seriously?


"Before Farage there was no-one in politics who spoke for that majority"

Garage has fooled so many people it's impressive. He's a city man who went to Dulwich and has zero idea of what life is like for most of us who have to struggle to make a living. Worst still, he is xenophobic and encourages xenophobia and legitimises racism, which we've seen increase since the vote.

The vote is the choice of the people, that has to be respected. But the consequences of the vote need to be mitigated and we need to ensure we continue forward instead of regressing into the 1970's, which is what a lot of old white men seem to want.

The working class will wake up to this con trick in time, we already hear the Breiteers peddling back on their lies about the NHS; why anyone would put up with that is beyond me - the poor will pay with their suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

So you think Johnson, Gove et al are outside the establishment? Seriously?

Compared to the Remainers, yes.
All the political parties except UKIP, Treasury, Bank of England, Employers especially government, big business especially government, banks, and the affluent users of nannies, gardeners, housemaids and plumbers.

What Observer/Guardian said on Sunday,
"The Ukip-led voter uprising that tore up the political map in 2014 and 2015 has now changed the face of British politics for ever. David Cameron promised a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union to see off the Ukip revolt. Instead, after a vote that drew the largest turnout in a nationwide poll for 20 years, it is the rebels who have seen off the prime minister, gone within hours of the result's announcement.

The Ukip rebels, dismissed only a few years ago as a fringe nuisance, have delivered perhaps the largest shock to European politics since the fall of the Berlin Wall. The vote highlighted Britain's deepening political faultlines. "

"The mass migration from poorer EU countries that began in 2004 was something the "left-behind" electorate never wanted, never voted for and never really accepted. The economic case for EU migration was clear to the liberal mainstream elites from across the political spectrum, who thought that should settle the matter. Politicians from both Labour and the Conservatives never made a case for free movement, and seemed to believe they could assuage popular anger by restrictions that were manifestly impossible, given EU treaty rules. The left-behind voters weren't fooled – they soon recognised that controlling immigration would be impossible without leaving the EU, and they have now voted accordingly."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/left-behind-eu-referendum-vote-ukip-revolt-brexit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: JHW
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

We've already said 'Goodbye'.
Since you've got to go
Oh you had better go now.
Go now. Go now. Go now
Before you see me cry.
I don't want you to tell me
Just what you intend to do now...

I don't want to see you go
But, darling,
You'd better go now.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:44 AM

"Compared to the Remainers, yes."

Ha! They're as establishment through and through. Privileged career politicians who have zero idea what it's like to not be able to afford to feed yourself. They're from the party that imposed austerity and cut our public services to the bone.

Those two and their cohorts, along with the odious Farage, are not rebels by the slightest stretch of the imagination, they're the soulmates of the fascist Le Pen and the heirs of Moseley.

To suggest these people represent the people in the same way as other progressives of the past is pretty insulting to their memory. From Watt Tyler, Jack Cade, Winstanley, Lilburne, the Chartists, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Luddites, the Suffragettes, Wilberforce and many, many others had so much more intellectual, moral and political integrity that they don't bear comparison.

We owe it to these people, who DID fight for the rights of ordinary working folk to eschew the politics of lies, division and superficiality. The good news is that the Leave campaign didn't con 16 million people and we are still here, working away quietly on the ground in our communities, free of party politics, to ensure our societies remain tolerant, compassionate, progressive and fit to act as a leading nation on the world stage.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM

The English have a memory - perhaps a false memory - of a time when their country was modestly prosperous, everyone had a job, and there were no brown or black people in it. Well, there were a few courtly eastern European professors, and the odd African or Indian prince, but basically, everyone one knew was English. Lots of ginger pop and cake on the beach, Mummy smiling and the sun shining.

The Brexit vote was a vote to make that imaginary past into an imaginary future.

The reality of a Europe that never really liked the English anyway saying "Oh, do go away", and a stock market in a feeding frenzy was what they got. And racist attacks on non-English people.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 AM

"The English have a memory - perhaps a false memory - of a time when their country was modestly prosperous, everyone had a job, and there were no brown or black people in it"

Lazy stereotyping, sweeping generalisation, same old, same old. Surely you can do a better anti-English rant than that? Do you think everyone lives in The Archers or Albert Square?

I know in my community we will stand shoulder to shoulder with all our fellow citizens, wherever they were born and whatever their creed. We will defend their rights as equals, they're a vital and dynamic part of our community and many are good friends of mine.

Remember, Leave only won by 4% and there are still the other 48% who voted to remain that will carry the flame for freedom, social justice, equality and community.