BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?

Subject: BS: Wither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: mkebenn
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:54 AM

Being across the pond and rather distracted with our own shit, would the aforementioned be better of or even viable w/o the UK and still in the EU? And would North unite with Ireland? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:42 PM

Ireland (Republic) exports a lot to Europe. What's Scotland's main export market? Northern Ireland's?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:55 PM

Scotland has moved towards another referendum in Independence and Northern Ireland is considering a border referendum.
Both voted overwhelmingly to stay in the E.U. - Northern Ireland in particular will lose out heavily when Britain leaves - their industry depends heavily on E.U. grants.
It was announced a few hours ago that the Irish Post Offices have reported a record number of requests for application forms for Republic of Ireland passports.
Haven't seen hordes of refugees pouring over the border or people smuggling yet - early days!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:15 PM

I'd imagine that the Irish passports are desired by people who may want to work and/or live in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:34 PM

The SNP have made a serious mistake in hitching their wagon to the EU

The two issues, Independence and EU membership have become conflated and in reality they are incompatible.

Sturgeon is left in a terrible position, having to push for a referendum that she does not want, over an issue that most of her supporters in the country don't care about.
She pushed her Party supporters into voting Remain to bolster the UK vote and ensure that the Indy Ref issue would not have to be addressed, but "the best laid plans o' mice an' Nicola, gang aft agley"

I am an SNP supporter to gain Independence, but they will need to stop playing politics and their pathetic rights agenda and appeal more to the gut instincts of the Scottish people, or their perceived success at the ballot box will turn out to be yet another false dawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:23 PM

Well the proportion vote to stay in the EU in Scotland was much higher than the proportion to leave in the UK as a whole, or in England and Wales.

It would have been perfectly possible to make a decision to leave conditional on all four parts of the UK voting for that. That's what the SNP and Plaid Cymru called for.

In a new referendum there'll be two differences to the EU referendum, both of which would help favour a vote to stayiing in the EU as an independant country - immigrants from the EU will be able to vote, and so will 16 and 17 year olds, as in the last independence referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 06:29 PM

The EU referendum has been won....end of story.
Miss Sturgeon has been HWHOP, she wanted a Remain victory so that she would not have to go for a second Indy Ref which will be almost impossible to win given present economic circumstances.

Also those who voted NO to independence are unlikely change their vote to stay in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Andrez
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 07:48 AM

Out of curiousity, if it takes 2 years to follow the EU exit protocol, when is the next UK general election due in the normal course of things? Is there one due in the next two years before expiry of the exit protocol time? If so when might that be approximately?

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM

The next General Election in the UK can be no later than May 2020, one could be called earlier but does not need to be if the incumbent government does not wish it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

akenaton writes:
The SNP have made a serious mistake in hitching their wagon to the EU

Surely joining a group of states with a common trading area and a common approach to law and practice isn't hitching your wagon to it? Being a member of the EU gives you trading partners.

Britain is due to take on the rotating presidency of the EU, which is ironic; other countries are singing "If you wanna go, go now, go now, go now", hoping to avoid a long limbo period that will be damaging to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: mkebenn
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 09:10 AM

Do the more than 3 million supporters for a petition for another vote on separation mean anything beyond "buyer's remorse" or is the issue, as Ake said, done? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 10:21 AM

"The SNP have made a serious mistake in hitching their wagon to the EU"
Yep - can always rely on Good Ol' Britain to look after them - that's why the Conservatives have so many MPs there.
Scotland needs Europe grants to survive especially as the British ship is sinking as fast as it is.
As the Brexits appealed to the basic xenophobia of those worried about their jobs, you mean?
You appear to be a prime example of this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:38 PM

I assume that, whatever his views on the EU, aken won't be voting against independence in a second referendum, and nor will other independence minded voters.

As I pointed out many people excluded from voting on the EU will be able to vote in such a referendum, most of whom are likely to vote for staying in the EU. And even if the economic experts do warn that breaking up the UK might be bad for Scotland, the EU referendum suggests that what the economic experts say doesn't necessarily count for too much with angry voters.. A lot of Scots will be indignant at having their choice overuled - and it was a far higher proportion voted to stay in Scotland than voted to go in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:20 PM

There will NOT be another Independence referendum any time soon Mr McGrath.....and I am as committed to Scottish Independence as I was to the UK's exit from the EU.

Unfortunately the young people of this country are not one homogeneous unit.....most of the remainers are from well off families with a wish to travel the world in their "gap years" and in time join the ranks of the high earning achievers;
In the large cities of Scotland, proper jobs are scarce, many young folk are without future or hope, many are trapped into addiction and criminality.
In countries of the Eurozone youth unemployment is running at 50%, and establishment parties are ineffectual

The young people are ruled by the media and a false childlike ideology...just like we were all these years ago,

Even they, will grow up some day.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:33 PM

akenaton - 25 Jun 16 - 04:34 PM

Spot on you have pegged it 100% right.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM

Thank you teribus we may differ politically, but I value your opinions and clear thinking very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:43 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 26 Jun 16 - 02:38 PM

The same people who voted in the last Scottish Independence Referendum will vote in the next one - and the answer then was NO.

As both Akenaton and myself have pointed out the circumstances both politically and financially have changed in the interim to further distance the possibility of the electorate of Scotland voting for independence. Sturgeon did not want this in 1000 years hence her language over the past few days. The SNP are about to be strung up and shoved into a battle they cannot win by the uneducated enthusiasm of their own "supporters" who haven't grasped the significance of oil now being $49 per barrel instead of $90 per barrel, or the fact that Scotland's main trading partner is not the EU but the rest of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:49 PM

Thompson - 26 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

All very well Thompson but please correct me if I am in error but twice now the population in the Republic of Ireland told the EU "NO" and twice the EU rejigged the question until the electorate of Ireland compliantly gave them the answer the EU wanted from the start - that is what "hitching your wagon to" means - "You play ball with us and we'll jam the bat right up your arse" - the UK has cottoned onto it and kicked it into touch where the whole damn experiment belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:49 PM

i predict scotland will leave the uk and apply for membership of the eu, if they do, this will be good for rep of ire, as they can still export beef and farm products to scotland, which will then be geographicaly the closest european country, the uk will be pleased to get rid of northern ireland which is a drain on their economy, if northern ireland leaves the uk and joins europe, the uk will consist of wales and england without northern ireland the uk will be better off economically, the most likely scenario is that they may refuse to join the rest of ireland but apply for membership of the eu, as a seperate entity.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:18 PM

One option an Independant Scotland might consider would be to avoid some of the requirements for new applicants, such as joining the Euro and Schengen area, but still get the other advantages of EU membership, by seeking a Norwegian style relationship, including freedom of movement.

...............

Whether advice by economics experts about the danger of leaving the Union would carry more weight with Scottish voters than similar warnings did with English voters is a interesting question.

It may be that there were many young voters in Scotland who voted for Brexit as you suggest, or would have if they've had the vote, akenaten. But does that in any way suggest they'd be in any way more likely to vote against independence?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:22 PM

Unfortunately for your scenario GSS:

The UK still remains to be the biggest "EU" trading partner of the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

Nevertheless please tell me how 5 million people in Scotland are going to buy the beef and farm products from Ireland that they currently export to 60 million people in England?

Application for membership of the EU? You are looking at 5 to 10 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:29 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 26 Jun 16 - 05:18 PM

Big difference Kevin is that being in the EEA costs Norway £400 million per year - but Norway actually makes a profit out of this arrangement - i.e. Norway sells more to the EU than it buys from it, which is why they are in it. Could you outline what Scotland would have to offer to achieve a similar position?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:22 PM

Teribus writes:
All very well Thompson but please correct me if I am in error but twice now the population in the Republic of Ireland told the EU "NO" and twice the EU rejigged the question until the electorate of Ireland compliantly gave them the answer the EU wanted from the start

Well, I voted no in one of these, and when the EU removed the factor that caused me to vote no, I voted yes the second time.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Andrez
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 07:18 PM

Thanks for the info Raggytash. So I guess that means the Conservatives actually do have the time to do the deed unless events come together to point to a major electoral disaster for them. O me miserum :-(

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 06:46 PM

Giving people in Ireland another chance to vote was an expression of democracy, as would be the case if we were given a second chance. When couples wish to divorce there are two stages, the decree nisi, after which they have a chance to rethink, before the decree absolute. That seems a very sensble idea.

It won't happen here of course, but that represents a failure of democracy rather than a victory for it.
............
I note that Gibraltar, having voted 90% in favour of staying, is discussing things with Scotland, to try to get a Deal analogous to that with Denmark, which allowed part of the country (greenland) to be out and the rest (continental Denmarj) to stay in.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: ollaimh
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 10:36 PM

terribus and akenaten agreeing proves two heads are worse than one. regressive english nationalism is ruining the eu, as it ruined the possibility of a true commonwealth rasther thasn an empire when joseph chamberlain proposed an imerial parliament above westminster.imperialiam can bring stability and general wealth if it's not poisoned by this crude nationalism.

slovakia separated by a vote of their legislature with no referendum, that was upheld by the european high court as legal and constitutional. the snp could run on the promise of udi and leave.with the laterreferendum for a treaty with the eu.

lets hope this brings and end to england permanent war in ireland if the north joins the south. but then what would british establishment terrorists do to pass the time? they aren't ready to work in the city orget a real job, become blackwater mercernaries i suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:07 AM

olliamh - Could you pass that last post of yours to your carer and perhaps he/she could get it translated into English.

In the case of Slovakia, I do not think that the European High Court came into any part of the dissolution of Czechoslovakia, of course what they chose to recognise would be entirely up to them. Timeline was - declaration of independence 1992, then joined NATO & the EU in 2004, finally adopted the Euro as their currency in 2009. (Scotland can't wait that long it's got only two changes of clothes)

That England is engaged in a permanent war with Ireland is news to me, as is the contradiction stated that it would appear that somehow "English Nationalist" is bad but "Irish Nationalism" is good.

The "North" will only now ever join the "South" olliamh when those who live in the "North" decide that that is what they want to do. After that has happened the people living in the "South" then get a say via a referendum as to whether or not they want those in the "North" to join them.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:20 AM

Wales now
Cornwall & Yorkshire are you in that queue yet?

History repeats itself. It has to, nobody is listening.

remember Czechoslovakia & Yugoslavia ?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

Unfortunately for those yabbering on about the break-up of the UK, they somehow seem to have mistakenly read the results of the EU Referendum as signs of nationalist aspiration - that is a mistake.

The majority of the electorate of Scotland recently voted to reject the call for independence and remain as part of the UK - FACT

The majority of the electorate of Northern Ireland show no sign at all of wishing to end their association with Great Britain - if they ever showed even the slightest inclination to do so there would be a referendum on that topic in a heartbeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:27 AM

Apologies I did not refer to Wales in my last post:

The Welsh Assembly consists of 60 seats, Labour hold 29 of them, Plaid Cymru hold 12, the Conservatives hold 11, UKIP holds 7 and the Liberal Democrats have 1 seat. On the results of the last elections only Plaid Cymru are talking about Independence for Wales - But of course it is natural that they should it is their raison d'etre, so nothing of any significance there.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 07:12 AM

I think the result was a mixture of xenophobia, disnchantment on the left with large bureaucratic multi national european capitalism, and amongst some older voters "why should we be governed by germany and france when we fought two world wars" some commonmwealth passport holders may also have voted to leave knowing that if european immigration was restricted that relatives of theirs in commonwealth countries may find it easier to get entry. which rather defeats UKIPS ANTI IMMGRATION RHETORIC

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:09 AM

Britain is due to take on the rotating presidency of the EU

Not until July 1917, by then Article 50 will have been triggered, and the leaving process well and truly in train. An alternative candidate will no doubt have been selected to replace the UK (Most likely would be Austria) long before July 1917.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:28 AM

The Archduke will have been shot by then.

Far from Sturgeon been left in a fix by this situation, she's seized it as a historical opportunity:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36644777

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36645355

She is currently looking like the sanest leading figure in British politics, and is probably the most popular Scottish politician since James IV.

And from one of her colleagues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36649450

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 09:07 AM

Has anyone noticed how Nicola is beginning to look like her predecessor?

Trouble would appear to be that Nicola Sturgeon, like most of the UK's politicians believe that ears are attached to the heads of human beings for the sole purpose of keeping spectacles in place - she obviously doesn't use them for listening to what people say, such as:

1: The majority of people in Scotland do not want independence
2: In the unlikely event that the electorate of Scotland decide on independence Scotland would not automatically become a member of the EU - in 2014 the President of the EU Council and the President of the EU Commission told the SNP that as unambiguously as they possibly could.
3: Scotland will not automatically be a member of the EU after the UK leaves should Scotland vote in INDY REF 2 for independence - they will have to apply for membership as any other country would have to - No special deals, no "fast-track" for Scotland.
4: Last link showing the SNP MEP didn't focus on what EU Commission President stated quite clearly just a little earlier on - to paraphrase - No talks, official, or unofficial with any EU politicians, EU Commissioners, until after the UK has triggered the leaving process in accordance with Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty - So I do not see who Nicola Sturgeon will rush to Brussels to talk to, or indeed what they would be able to talk about that would be of any significance or substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 12:35 PM

And while the British parties are tearing themselves to bits, Sturgeon moves on to consensus-building:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36645355

There doesn't seem much sign of panic here. Collective quiet determination is more like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM

Teribus says:
1: The majority of people in Scotland do not want independence

Correction: The majority of people in Scotland DID not want independence.
Since they were last asked, a great deal has changed. They are now to be forced out of the EU against their will and this changes things totally.
Scots voted by 62-38 percent to remain in Thursday's EU membership referendum yet still they will have to leave.

It is likely that many Scots voted No in 2014's independence referendum as voting Yes would have meant them leaving the EU, at least temporarily.

Post-Brexit polls have 60% of Scots now supporting Scottish independence
Scottish independence has nearly 60 per cent support

It seems that Nicola Sturgeon is the only leader with plans for what to do now (the Leave camp admit they made no plans for what to do if they won) and as such she inspires confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:37 PM

The majority of the electorate of Northern Ireland show no sign at all of wishing to end their association with Great Britain Jerry Adams et al are making noises. If they get any louder they may be the sound of guns.

The genie is not only out of the bottle, but he (or she) is not alone, there were at least 10 green bottle, hanging on that wall .............
And we know how that song ends.

ever wondered why I call them a neverendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:45 PM

Sorry Noreen but anyone who talks about Scottish Independence and membership of the EU in the same breath - is obviously out of their minds.

Lots of things have changed you say? Such as?

Scotland's main trading partner, inside the EU or out of it remains the same - the United Kingdom. Should Scotland go for independence the flight of money and jobs South to England would be massive.

Your currency if independent will not be under the control of the Scottish Government.

If independent stand by for tax increases, stand-by for them anyway now that Scotland is fiscally responsible for itself. In 2014 the answer to all financial questions thrown at the SNP was North Sea Oil, that was when it stood at $90 per barrel - it is down at $48 per barrel now and the industry is gripped in the greatest depression it has ever known.

The SNP "myth" that Scotland would gain automatic entry to the EU has been well and truly exploded. Out of the EU the Scots will have to survive for a period of about 5 years before it joins the EU where upon the Scottish Government then becomes redundant if Merkel, Hollande and Juncker get their way {Closer political, financial and social union - all that effort to gain independence just to throw it all away again - quite a few SNP supporters oppose membership of the EU}

The only Parliament that can call a second independence referendum is located in London, not Edinburgh. A fact of life that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP do not seem to have grasped.

All the questions that told so devastatingly against the SNP and the "YES" campaign in 2014 have still to be addressed but for Indy Ref 2 those same questions have all got harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:01 PM

"Jerry Adams et al are making noises. If they get any louder they may be the sound of guns."

Ah the automatic default position of the "Bold Fenian Men" lets try and bomb them into submission. It has never worked for them in the past, and this time round neither the USA, Europe or even Ireland would forgive them.

I would also assume that since the 1990s those who would take up the bomb and gun in Northern Ireland have been aware of what has been going on - If they ever did decide to take up arms again, they'd be in for the biggest shock in their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 PM

lets try and bomb them into submission. It has never worked for them in the past,

By the first "them"you presumably mean the Irish and by the second "them" you presumably mean the British Gov't, in which case I agree wholeheartedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:51 PM

Nicola Sturgeon will be talking to the EU not about ways of making Brexit less painful for the UK, which is what has been ruled out, but about ways in which Scotland could remain within the EU.

It was striking to see the Scottish. MEP Alyn Smith getting a standing ovation today from all the EU Parliament when he called for solidarity with Scotland in standing out against being dragged out of the EU by the English. Here's a YouTube clip

I'm inclined to think the Scottish cause could be as popular across Europe as the result of the Iceland victory...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM

And no, not all the MEPs were standing - but the many who were were from all across the chamber.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM

And no, not all the MEPs were standing - but the many who were were from all across the chamber.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:33 PM

"Nicola Sturgeon will be talking to the EU not about ways of making Brexit less painful for the UK, which is what has been ruled out, but about ways in which Scotland could remain within the EU."

Juncker has banned any contact - what is it about this that you have difficult in understanding? Her appointment with The President of the EU Parliament goes ahead, the more important meeting with the President of the EU Council has been cancelled as the President of the EU Council and Juncker consider it inappropriate.

Also cannot understand why it is so difficult for you, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond to grasp the factual reality that Scotland is not a member of the EU, that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the sovereign entity that is actually an EU Member State, has voted in a nation-wide referendum to leave the EU. Now you either support democracy and abide by the will of the majority of people in the UK and support their decision, or you admit that the only votes you are prepared to accept are those that go your way and the will of the people can go hang.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:39 PM

abide by the will of the majority of people in the UK

Once again, it was NOT the will of "the majority of people in the UK".

And it was certainly not the will of the majority of people in Scotland.

"Get used to it".

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 09:14 PM

The majority of people in the United Kingdom pretty certainly are in fact opposed to Brexit.

In the referendum on Scottish independence people aged 16 and 17 were able to vote. So we're people who had come from other countries in the EU, as well as those who had come from other countries. In the Brexit referendum 16 and 17 year old were excluded, and only migrants from Commonwealth were included.

It is pretty certain that with either of those extensions of the voting register there would have been a majority it for staying.

Even aside from this, the number voting for Brexit amounted to less than forty per cent of the adult population -not a high enough percentage to allow industrial action under the Tory laws pending.

In any case, as has been pointed,Brexit was roundly defeated in Scotland by a proportion far higher than the razor thin majority in England. In not accepting the call for exit to be conditional on majority votes in all nations within the UK the government under David Cameron betrayed the implicit compact of the Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 02:03 AM

Greg F. - 28 Jun 16 - 06:39 PM

1: Funny thing about elections and referenda Greg F., the result reflects the will of the people on the basis that those eligible and registered to vote represent the people and only the votes cast are accountable. In the EU Referendum some 46 million were registered to vote but only 72.1% could be arsed to vote so that 72.1% represents the "Will of the people" - the result? - more voted to Leave than Remain.

Neither you or MGOH have got any right at all or any basis for declaring that those who did not vote were all remain supporters - if you cannot be bothered to use your vote you have no right to complain about the outcome of any referendum or election.

2: The nation I live in is the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, that was the country that held the Referendum because that is the country that happens to be a member of the EU. The electorate of that country voted in the biggest voter turn-out since 1992 and they voted to leave - what individual areas voted is irrelevant.

"Get used to it".

McGrath of Harlow - 28 Jun 16 - 09:14 PM

3: "The majority of people in the United Kingdom pretty certainly are in fact opposed to Brexit."

Pure supposition on your part, please do not present that as though it is fact. the rest of your post is a meaningless whinge because the side you voted for lost, possibly made worse from your point of view because the voters who swung it for the Leave side were solid traditional Labour voters who refused to listen to Corbyn who belatedly advised Remain but who in all probability according to accounts voted Leave himself.

As to the franchise? The Referendum was nation-wide, and was on a matter concerning the entire country. There are three levels of franchise when it comes to votes in the UK:

1 - Local Council elections
2 - General Elections
3 - Referenda

They exist for reasons that I find make good sense, you tell me why someone from an EU country who is working in the UK on a temporary basis, or a foreign student should have a say in the long term future of a country that is not his/her own? When I lived and worked abroad, after four years I could vote in local elections, but never relinquishing my UK citizenship I would never have been allowed to vote in the General Elections - I had no complaint about that.

In Scotland for the independence referendum it was a sign of the desperation of the SNP that 16 & 17 year olds were given the vote - didn't work though, did it?

Your last bleat about the call for exit to be conditional on majority votes in all nations within the UK the government under David Cameron betrayed the implicit compact of the Union.

The UK is the member state, the Referendum Bill was put before Parliament in 2015 and received Royal Assent to become the European Union Referendum Act 2015 on the 17th December, 2015. So it was fully debated and discussed by all interested parties, voted on and passed.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 03:41 AM

Forgot to add to that last post of mine, had the vote gone the other way as many expected that it would - my bet is that we wouldn't have heard a squeak out of either of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 04:33 AM

I think the squeaks would have been present no matter what. It is a neverendum after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM

One reason why an independence referendum might go differently this time: a central part of the NO campaign's propaganda was that going independent would take Scotland out of the EU. And now everybody can see what bollocks that was: the risk to Scotland's membership comes instead from being part of the UK.

"Independence in Europe" has been the SNP's policy since the 1980s. Every one of the ever-increasing number of people who've voted for them knew that.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:14 AM

If 60% of Scots now opt for independence, it seems pretty likely that a second referendum will succeed.

The best hope for the survival of "Great Britain" is if Scotland can negotiate an agreement to be allowed to remain in the EU. It seems a slim chance, but who can tell?

Clearly there's no appetite to do favours to the Brexit UK on the part of the EU, but giving Scotland a break might not be seen as doing that. In fact the Brexit Westminster government might not like that to happen, but that should give it a better chance of being offered. If it were available, and Westminster were able to block it, that could pretty well guarantee a vote for independence.

The UK is the member state, but so is Australia, and no change like this could be passed without a majority of Australia's states.

It's only in a country with no constitution that this kind of thing could be imposed by a razor thin majority vote.
..............

My point about who was allowed to vote wasn't that a wider electoral roll would necessarily have voted different - though it seems pretty likely that it would - but that the claim that most people in the UK had voted for it was not in fact true.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:27 AM

Most voters voted for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:35 AM

Yes professor we know, however not ALL the people were eligible to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:44 AM

....and never have been, so what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 08:05 AM

Read McGarths of Harlows input.











Moron

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Personal abuse in place of debate yet again Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:59 AM

The point is is that the UK is in some ways a marginally democratic country.

With the two major parties engaged in an exercise of synchronised drowning, and an electoral system designed to make it virtually possible to permit the kind of political reaoignment that is clearly needed, it is time for a Constitutional Convention, like that which preceded devolution in Scotland.

That could produce a provisional constitution or a choice of constitutions that could be presented the the people in a referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:20 PM

The uk is imo marginally more democratic than europe the majority of people voted to leave, that does not include people like myself who did not vote, it was a majority of the overall vote, a lot of people did not vote, why did i not vote, because there was not a proper discussion, and neiter side came up with rational reasons but indulged in scaremongering or xenophobic statements,an example of absulotely pathetic politicians an exception being j corbyn .

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:20 PM

I have written today informing Mss Sturgeon that if the SNP continue to grovel to the EU commissioners, seeking entry to this undemocratic shambles, I shall be handing in my membership card.

The hypocrisy is breath taking, they wish to free themselves from the yoke of Westminster by fastening Scotland in the straightjacket of Brussels.......you couldn't make it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:58 PM

...I shall be handing in my membership card.

Ake, hand it in regardless. The entire party membership will doubtless be gutted when you do.


fastening Scotland in the straightjacket of Brussels.......you couldn't make it up!

You just did.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 06:56 PM

So do we take it now in effect your a Unionist?

You could always hope that even if Scotland goes independent, aken, it wouldn't be able to join the EU.

Surely if the "grovelling" didn't come off, it wouldn't matter retrospectively?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Noreen
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 10:26 PM

This is a fascinating, wide-ranging topic for discussion, but only if there is respect on all sides for other points of view.

I'm not interested in a discussion where someone holding an opposing view must be "out of their minds".
(Thank you to those who don't get drawn into the abuse.)

I'll leave you to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:12 AM

germany exports 20 per cent of her cars to the uk, trade will continue, scotland might join europe less likely but possible is N ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM

I am certainly not a Unionist Mr McGrath, but I want my country to be a sovereign nation, not a cog in a corrupt undemocratic elitist machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 07:59 PM

Europe is corrupt and undemocratic and so is the westminster government, if Scotland does get independence, i hope that their leaders are not corruptible.
T Benn,who managed to be divisive, DID MAKE A VERY GOOD COMMENT ON ONE OCCASION, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: ollaimh
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 09:32 AM

terribus making racist remarks about non english speakers, that's cute. mudcat gets smaller and smaller and the comentators get nastier and more delusional. SPEAK ENGLISH!!! OR GET OUT! i love the british empire racist never changing

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Noreen
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 10:24 AM

GSS, Tony Benn was quoting Lord Acton, who expressed this opinion in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887:

    "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

(Pitt the elder had said something very similar well before.)

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 12:02 PM

"not a cog in a corrupt undemocratic elitist machine."

Put 'global corporate' before 'corrupt' and that's exactly what we are. Except now, we as workers will be subject to the right-wing economic liberals who want to destroy workers rights and exploit us even more.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 12:38 PM

I suspect that the most likely outcome is Scotland failing to get special status while part of the UK, going independent, and negotiating a Norway style relationship with the EU for the time being, with freedom of movement, until a Spanish government eventually lifts any veto on Scotland rejoining the EU.

As for Northern Ireland I can't see an end to partition coming soon - but if Scotland goes independent and is attached to the EU, as a member or Norway style, the option of abanding the English link in favour of one with Scotland might emerge.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 01:04 PM

Stu my friend, the "working class" has gone, meltit lik snaw affa dyke.

The huge union ruled power systems no longer exist, evenI a lifelong member of the Communist Party consider myself "middle class" I am bitterly ashamed of my status when I move around the great cities of Scotland and see the young underclass, the high rise dwellers the drug victims with the associated criminality.......Scotland has huge problems with a hidden underclass, which in thirty years the EU has done fuck all to alleviate.

We must get our priorities right.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 01:34 PM

correct akneaton, but non european multi national capitalism will not solve them either.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 03:16 AM

True Good Soldier, but I'm afraid it will be many years before THAT particular obstacle to the construction of a decent society is binned.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 07:37 AM

It's a total bloody mess. We have had a non-binding referendum, which nevertheless everyone is saying must be treated as binding. All it tells is is that on that particular day a slightly larger number of people voted to leave than to remain. Even then it is questionable whether the result reflected actual public opinion on that day, as some seem to have voted Leave as a protest without really meaning it - including at least one of the campaign's leaders (BoJo's look of combined horror and terror following the result was something to behold). The latest opinion polls suggest another referendum today would vote to remain, but that's not going to happen. We're stuck with the results from 23 June, whether we like it or not. Parliament isn't going to have the guts to go against the results of the referendum, and anyway the politicians have lost all interest in the matter while they fight amongst themselves. In the meantime the country is torn down the middle, and the racist elements of society have emerged feeling they've been given a mandate to be even nastier than before. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 07:57 AM

Spot on Howard.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 08:42 AM

Howard for PM!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 10:47 AM

I think they call it democracy Howard, I know you have not much interest in it, but if the result had gone the other way and condemned us to being shackled to a failing organisation we would not have heard a cheep from you......I think you will find that your precious rights will not be rolled back, so you can sleep soundly....nothing else really matters....does it?

New Markets, a level playing field for our young folks, overload on public services being reduced, sovereignty for our countries......nothing much really?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 11:12 AM

It is only democratic if people are given the full facts and not racist rhetoric to make their decision
By your argument, the Nazis were a democratic organisation - they certainly had the support of the German masses.
Your failure to address one single point of the catastrophe this decision has brought about - not one of you Brexits have dealt with the appalling fallout - guess who will pick up the tab for this (some jobs are already under threat)- no prizes, I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 11:42 AM

We would still have had a political crisis if the balance of the vote had gone the other way. We might not have had the resignations and backstabbing or the immediate economic consequences, but the referendum revealed a country split right down the middle. Whether it is a few points one way or the other isn't the point. Whichever way the vote had gone, the margin is so narrow we would have found ourselves in a situation which around half the country is bitterly opposed to. The government is now in the difficult position of trying to find a balance between these irreconcilable views.

Yes, democracy is about the will of the majority prevailing. However especially when that majority is so small there is a moral, not to say politically pragmatic, responsibility to take into account the views of the minority. Even more so where some of the majority might now have changed their mind. Especially so when we are about to set out on an irreversible course with no idea of what lies ahead.

The government must now respect the result of the referendum and move towards Brexit, but it must try to do so in a way which will also carry along the other half of the population. It will be difficult enough to negotiate a settlement which will meet the aspirations of the Leavers. In my view it would be a mistake to trigger Article 50 too early, as this starts a timetable which is heavily weighted in the EU's favour and makes it even less likely that the Leavers will achieve the deal they are hoping for and which their leaders promised.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 11:44 AM

The "fallout" you refer to Jim, has been engineered by the establishment, just as the revolt against Mr Corbyn has been engineered by the Blairite malcontents.


BTW anyone wishing to register support for Mr Corbyn can do so HERE!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 12:59 PM

The result of the referendum was that far fewer than half of registered voters voted to leave. Far fewer than half the electorate are therefore being allowed to make a completely irrevocable decision. That is a key difference between this vote and a routine general election vote. There should have been a minimum threshold for turnout and a minimum two-thirds majority requirement before the status quo could be challenged. On top of that the out campaign was mainly predicated on bogus promises that immigration can be significantly reduced. It can't be and it won't be. To exacerbate the situation, the campaign was fought on whipping up antagonism towards foreigners (that poster for example, but also packs of lies about immigrants forcing down wages, etc.). The in campaign didn't exactly cover itself in glory either. The electorate was severely short-changed by the campaign and the country is now divided in a way it wasn't before the referendum. It's a bloody shambolic mess and I'd heartily support any moves to block the triggering of Article 50 or to call a second referendum, this time with proper thresholds. Anyone who thinks that the outcome of this farce is true democracy in action is seriously deluded. One tiny glimmer of satisfaction from all this is that Cameron will go down in British history as by far the most idiotic twat who's ever disgraced politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:13 PM

So, in your world Steve you keep raising the thresholds till you get the result you want.....you are a great democrat.....not!

Your excuses for defeat are merely conjecture......nothing of substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:18 PM

"The "fallout" you refer to Jim, has been engineered by the establishment"
You are joking, of course.
Possible, break up of the UK, threats of firms to move to the continent, up-and-down economy, Britain split in two, politicians running around like blue-arsed flies tring to hand into Europe for as long as possible, resignation of elected Prime Minister and the possible voting out of the leader of the opposition..... all an establishment plot!!!
I suppose that the thousands who turned out in London today to protest Brexit were a Government Reantamob
Those that the gods wish to destroy..... and all that - you're as mad as a bag of frogs

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:31 PM

London is not the United Kingdom.
London voted remain.....I've heard you have to be pretty well heeled to live in London.

We've fucked up their future?   Well boo hoo, I'm more interested of the unemployed, the part time workers the whole North of England and Wales......now just remind me Jim......exactly who fucked up THEIR future

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 02:56 PM

Not the EU. If you really think that the referendum was fair, take me on point by point (I won't be holding my breath, as you appear to be congenitally incapable of addressing points). I don't make "excuses" for defeat either. Stop acting the crowing clown and join the debate, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 05:06 PM

the part time workers the whole North of England and Wales......now just remind me Jim......exactly who fucked up THEIR future

Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 08:48 AM

"London is not the United Kingdom."
I've been told by one of your compatriots that because the leave vote squeezed through by a narrow margin it doesn't matter a toss what Northern Ireland and Scotland voted, any future decisions will be taken in London
The marginal nature of a decision taken by a narrow majority of %72 of the British people means that all decisions will be taken in London.   
You have yet to respond to that damage and from the announcement of the result your attitude has been that of a very small cock crowing from a very small dunghill.
The damage done by this decision is what inspired these protests and it is far from a done deal yet
You may have won this particular skirmish, but it isd far from over.
"I've heard you have to be pretty well heeled to live in London."
You most certainly do not - you appear to understand nothing.
London has a massive indigenous working-class population, many of whom wh survive on a hand-to-mouth existence which is deteriorating by the day.
You now have to be well-heeled to move to London - a different thing altogether - no affordable rented accommodation, sky-high house prices and now an extremely expensive place to live.
We moved in 1998 and immediately realised that, should we wish, we would never be able to afford to move back there - thankfully, wild horses.... and all that.
Even the most ignorant of Socialists I have met understand a little about the sociology of Britain - which door was you hiding behing when they were handing out the brains?
Don't you care about the potential loss of jobs, wherever they are, or the divisions in Britain, or the possible break-up of the U.K. or the million or so British workers who are quite likely to be sent back to Britain - I know you don't give a toss about the fate of those refugees you want turned away - your arguments contain neither economic common-sense nor humanity - they are based on pure bigoted prejudice and dishonesty.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 09:20 AM

I don't have to debate whether the referendum was fair or not Steve, it has been accepted by both sides.

YOU have to prove it was unfair......and you have so far failed to do so.

The cries of the spoiled children don't count, unfortunately for you.

Come back when you have some hard evidence that the vote was unfair the details were agreed long before the event.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 10:32 AM

"Come back when you have some hard evidence that the vote was unfair the details were agreed long before the event."
Any debate that is based on irrational fear of foreigners is unfair
Boris backpedalled on his on his claims on the health service immediately the result was announced - pretty unfair, even for a politician.
Your persistent refusal to debate the implications of this result is as unfair and dishonest as it comes
Putting down the fallout to having been "engineered by the establishment", when virtually every economist and business representative warned of what the consequences would be is downright dishonesty - and will continue to be such when you continue to ignore requests to justify your 'conspiracy theory'
At least Keith scrabbled around for 'real historians'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 04:58 AM

It's not a question of whether the referendum was unfair.It's just that it has an uncertain status in our political process. It's non-binding, so it's just a glorified opinion poll. Had it shown an unequivocal majority, either way, that would have sent a clear message to parliament. What it gave us was is a narrow majority, which may not now accurately reflect public opinion as a number of people have admitted they only voted Leave as a protest, or have changed their minds having realised that the promises made in the campaign are probably unachievable. Whether those numbers would be sufficient to reverse the decision if another referendum were to be held is unknowable without actually holding one, which isn't going to happen.

Having agreed to the referendum Parliament now finds itself more or less obliged to follow the result, against the wishes of around half the population who bothered to turn out and vote It would have been in the same position if Remain had one by a similar margin. This issue has divided the country.

Brexit must now happen, and those who called for it must now negotiate terms which achieve the benefits they promised. otherwise they will disappoint their own followers as well as all those who wished to remain. It's a very tall order, and one which I think will be very difficult, if not impossible. I hope I'm proved wrong.

As for N Ireland and Scotland, they are dragged into it whether they like it or not - that too is democracy. Whether they are now able or indeed willing to exit from the UK is another question, as is whether that would enable them to remain in the EU without a lengthy application process (which might not succeed). I think it is particularly difficult for N Ireland - despite the border question raised by Brexit and better relations with the Republic I suspect there is still strong resistance to union with it. Perhaps NI could affiliate to an independent Scotland?

I still find it surprising that an issue which until this referendum was raised was not really a priority for most people should have become so divisive, and now risks breaking up the UK, possibly Europe as well, and creates massive economic uncertainty just as we were beginning to emerge from a recession. Of course it creates opportunities as well as risks. Let's hope the pessimists, of whom I am one, are proved wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM

For Fuck sake that is how a referendum works! Brexit won, we must leave the EU....not ifs no buts.

In every election there are people who are unhappy with the result In the Scottish Indy referendum I was very unhappy with the result but had to accept it and make the best of what we had.......In that referendum the no campaign told loads of lies, but they convinced the people of Scotland to stay as part of the UK......I had to live with it.......You have to live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 09:33 AM

I'm not disputing that we have to live with it, even though there is a real possibility that the result may not actually reflect public opinion. People voted Leave who didn't mean it, others have since changed their mind (I also accept that some may have voted to Remain out of caution but were pleased with the result). If there had been a substantial majority, that would be a very different matter. The leaders of Brexit are already backpedalling furiously from the promises they made.

My concern is that we are now set on an irrevocable course of action. In my view, if we are going to do that there should be a more convincing majority than we have for this. In most elections it doesn't matter much, because there will later be a chance to reverse it. If a vote is for the status quo (like the Scottish referendum), that still leaves open the possibility of changing it in future. This one is final.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 10:49 AM

Brexit must now happen

Not Necessarily

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 11:27 AM

"Brexit won,"
Hitler won his election - should they have lived with that?
It was a shit decision based on generated race hatred and it stands tio have fucked up Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 11:52 AM

Hi Steve

I don't agree that the referendum was undemocratic.

It is not anyone's fault that so many people did not vote. But that is their democratic right.

Both sides campaigned with lies and falsehoods - some are still being broadcast.

I am no maths expert but surely the vote was fair and the result clear.

One can assume had the non-voters voted the result would have been the same, with the spread of votes being in a similar way as those that did. This would have led to the Leave Campaign having a clear majority.

IMHO reruns are not required. The people have spoken so let's get on and get the job done.   

Looking forward to the new footy season looks like the teams ofManchester and Liverpool will be closely contested.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:10 PM

One can assume had the non-voters voted the result would have been the same

Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 03:05 PM

I'm not saying that the referendum was undemocratic. And a majority is a majority. But when it produces such a narrow result, with a margin of less than 4% and on a high turnout, on a matter which will have profound constitutional and economic consequences which will last for decadesand which almost certainly cannot be reversed, there should be a pause for thought. To simply say there was a majority so it must happen is to elevate the process over good governance.

It would be politically unthinkable not to start to move towards Brexit as a result of the referendum, but to ignore the opinion of very nearly the same number of people who took the opposite view is not democracy. We should proceed cautiously, and avoid committing the country to an irrevocable course of action until we have a clearer direction (as opposed to wishful thinking) and being sure that the proposal retains public support.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 07:30 AM

I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face. A decision to leave the EU has been taken by less that 38% of the registered electorate. I'm not making any claims about how the non-voters might have voted. I am saying that this referendum was not like a general election. If we don't like what elected politicians do we can always boot them out. But this decision, if it goes ahead, which I hope it won't, is irrevocable. Once we are are out, we won't be reapplying, even if we can. Ain't going to happen. Irrevocable decisions to change the long-standing status quo should always be predicated on a high turnout (75%?) and a high threshold (two-thirds of the actual vote?). Because this was not put in place, I'm contending that the referendum was unfair and undemocratic. There are plenty of other arguments, to do with the shabby way the campaign was conducted by both sides, that further erode whatever democratic credentials this process was supposed to possess. It is not democratic to induce fearful uncertainty in people when you completely lack certainty yourself. It is not democratic to lie about how much we pay into the EU. It is not democratic to persuade people that you can control immigration when you can't. As we will see over the next few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:12 PM

72.2% of those registered to vote cast their votes - highest voter turn out in the UK since 1992 - now unless you want to overturn all election/referendum results since then - abide by the result - as Akenaton said that is how democracy works - even with a majority of 1. Perhaps they should institute compulsory voting as they have in the Australian States where you are fined if you do not vote.

Jack Campin - 29 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM
“a central part of the NO campaign's propaganda was that going independent would take Scotland out of the EU.” And now everybody can see what bollocks that was: the risk to Scotland's membership comes instead from being part of the UK.”

I think you got that the wrong way round Jack – It was Alex Salmond’s baseless and incorrect assumption that Scotland would automatically retain membership in the EU that was challenged.

” the risk to Scotland's membership comes instead from being part of the UK.”

Point 1: Scotland is not nor ever has been a member state of the EU – the UK on the other hand is, although that will alter when we leave.

Point 2: What risk? 80% of Scotland’s trade is with the rest of the UK.

McGrath of Harlow - 29 Jun 16 - 07:14 AM

The UK is the member state, but so is Australia, and no change like this could be passed without a majority of Australia's states.”

When did Australia become a member of the EU?

Comparing apples to oranges Kevin Australia does not exist as a country – it is officially known as The Commonwealth of Australia between 1855 and 1890 the various states in Australia and Tasmania became self-governing entities within the British Empire. To achieve further autonomy in 1901 they formed a Federation not a Union as occurred with Scotland, England and Wales and Ireland in 1707 and 1801 respectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Irelan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 08:33 PM

If the referendum had gone the other way it is pretty certain that there would have been a massive drive by the losers for anothe referendum, which would have been perfectly possible, any time there was a majority of MPs who wished one. Quite properly.

There would have been nothing in any way undemocratic in demanding or getting a rerun, any more than there is in working to reverse the outcome of any election.

Democracy does not imply denying the right to change our minds, as individuals or collectively.
...........
The fact that the United Kingdom has such bizarre constitutional arrangements is no reason to accept that that should continue. One thing that clearly emerges from the present shambles is that it is high time for some kind of Constitutional Convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:03 AM

The only shambolic thing that is happening in the UK at the moment is what is happening in the Labour Party. With a leader who has lost the confidence of the elected Labour MPs (Who were given their mandate by those who Labour voters who voted for them in the last election - numbering in millions) but retains the support of the rank and file of the Labour Party Membership which numbers in a couple of hundred thousand.

When did Australia join the EU Kevin? This was what you said wasn't it:

"The UK is the member state, but so is Australia, and no change like this could be passed without a majority of Australia's states."

Oh by the way when in the past the Australians have call a plebiscite, while they my vote State by State the numbers for and against are tallied up to give totals for the whole nation just as they were in the UK Referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 06:45 AM

"The only shambolic thing? " A total tosser of a PM who called a completely unnecessary referendum only because he was running scared of his own vicious right-wing, who hate his guts, and of UKIP, has carted us out of the EU, which he dearly did not want to happen, nor did he even remotely expect it to. I call that shambolic. Now he's gone, almost certain to be replaced by a woman who has serially failed to "control our borders" against EU and non-EU immigration alike, despite promises which she lyingly tried to backtrack on, and who will continue to fail, a dead cert if ever there was one. Shambolic. And the three people who spearheaded the out campaign with a pack of lies, Johnson, Gove, and Farage, all jumped ship. Shambolic and utterly disreputable.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 07:14 AM

"The only shambolic thing that is happening in the UK at the moment is what is happening in the Labour Party"
Then the possible break-up of the U.K. and the enforced resignation of the Prime minister with the somewhat vicious infighting over who should be the next - plus the already obvious threats to employment and the economy isn't 'shamobilic'?
The vote has potentially fucked up the uk and you biguots don't have the balls to respond to that fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 07:54 AM

And I absolutely agree with Kevin's 08.33pm post. Claiming that a lopsided referendum is "democratic" is simply nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

1: The EU referendum was about five years overdue - it was promised by the Tories in the 2010 election but because of the Coalition the promised referendum could not be delivered. That prompted the rise of UKIP.

2: 2015 election and the Tories were held to their earlier promise of a referendum on EU Membership.

3: Cameron campaigned to remain in the EU and he lost the vote, he quite rightly felt that he was not the man who should negotiate Brexit so entirely of his own volition he resigned - Jom is very keen on yabbering on about "enforced resignations" even insisting that they occurred when they didn't (Kitchener).

4: The Tory Party then put into train their normal procedure for the election of a new leader. It appears to be running normally, the same cannot be said for what is happening in the Labour Party.

5: Extremely difficult if not impossible to control immigration while we are in the EU, which may explain the lack of success up to now. Once out any who arrive can be turned away - it becomes "our" decision, and not that of a foreign political leader bolstered by an EU rule that was never intended to be abused the way it is now.

6: Possible break up of the UK? Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP have gone very quite over any second independence referendum. A man I am no great fan of, Gordon Brown, laid it out in extremely plain terms the cost to Scotland of splitting from the rest of the UK and the cost to Scotland of the UK leaving the EU. Economically it is in Scotland's best interests to remain as part of the UK whether the UK is in the EU or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:36 PM

Well back to your Point Five. Kindly explain why the Tories have failed to not only control immigration from the EU but have also failed to control immigration from outside the EU, which actually exceeds EU immigration. Presumably, after brexit they'll be able to control EU immigration just as well as non-EU immigration. In other words, hardly at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 03:03 PM

Maybe it is in Scotland's best economic interests to remain in the UK, Teribus.

But I seem to remember similar arguments being made about leaving the EU, and it didn't seem to determine the vote in England.
........
As for Australia, what I meant to write was that Australia is a nation state. My fingers do that sometime.

But of course, inside Europe, Germany is very much a member state, and undoubtedly one with a Federal structure. Of course they have decided to avoid plebiscites and such, too muany Naziassociations But a decision like this couldn't be imposed on the constituent federal state governments. That would be seen as intolerably anti-democratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:13 AM

"Maybe it is in Scotland's best economic interests to remain in the UK, Teribus.

But I seem to remember similar arguments being made about leaving the EU, and it didn't seem to determine the vote in England."

Apples and oranges again Kevin, 80% of Scotland's trade and about 1 million jobs in Scotland rely on trade with the rest of the UK irrespective of whether the UK is in the EU or out of it.

For almost three years now the UK's main trading partner has been the rest of the world not the EU. UK/EU trade figures are made to look bigger than they actually are by classifying all goods shipped from the UK to Rotterdam's Europort for onward shipment to countries outside the EU as trade with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:35 AM

"Kindly explain why the Tories have failed to not only control immigration from the EU but have also failed to control immigration from outside the EU, which actually exceeds EU immigration. Presumably, after brexit they'll be able to control EU immigration just as well as non-EU immigration. In other words, hardly at all."

Very easily explained:

1: Once upon a time there was a Labour Leader and Prime Minister called Anthony Blair who decided that an open border policy for those wishing to enter the UK would be best for the Labour Party - And please before any arguments Tony Blair never ever did anything he thought was good for the country without it also being in the first case good for the Labour Party.

2: This open doors policy was in tune with what a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels saw as being the free movement of "labour" and people within Europe. This meant that anyone accepted as having arrived in Europe either as migrants or as refugees could also travel anywhere in the EU, irrespective of where they have come from or why.

3: The majority of migrants and refugees arrive in the UK from Europe. Thousands and thousands are pouring into Europe every week. Oddly enough the two countries they seem to be headed for are Germany and the UK - Germany because it is rich and prosperous and because Merkel, like Blair, said "Let 'em all in" - the UK because our country is such a basket case according to the likes Stu, Steve Shaw and Jim Carroll, whose views must be accepted as gospel. I mean all those migrants and refugees wouldn't possibly want to come to the UK having travelled across so many EU countries because of the fact that the UK compared to most of the developed world has been doing rather well since 2010.

4: Other nations outside the EU also wished to destabilise the EU for their own ends. Turkey and Russia ensure that the flood gates remain open for two different reasons. Now had whole hearted support for intervention in both Libya and in Syria been given when it was originally requested we would not have the refugee problem we have today.

5: With the UK out of the EU the UK Government gets to decide who can and who cannot enter the country, not some unaccountable bureaucrat sitting in Brussels and certainly not any foreign head of government.

6: The EU's borders are long and porous, the UK is an island, which makes our borders easier to control provided we have the political will to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 03:08 AM

Are you wearing your safety pin?

methinks 'tis the best thing to pull the country together!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 03:44 AM

"even insisting that they occurred when they didn't (Kitchener)."
Another lost battle trying to be recouped - give it a rest.
do you know how many errors you have made, how many retreats you have been forced into and how many points you have refused to respond to, here, The Easter Week Thread, The Famine - all a total humiliation for you and your mate - for Christs sake, grow up.
Your half-arsed response is utter made-up gibberish.
Brexit has cause a potential crisis regarding the future of Britain, the economy has been sent reeling, as was predicted by publications such as The Economist, The United Kingdom stands to disintegrate (I won't ask you to provide proof on your claims on the so-called Scottish change of mind regarding independence - it would be pissing in the wing to, do so, and, having apparently accepted that %25 unemployment is an acceptable figure, you refuse to accept that Brexit has closed a major door on people from Britain seeking work in Europe.
You accept that Britain has a major unemployment problem, yet you call those who are forced to claim unemployment benefit as "spongers"
Insurance benefit is an insurance paid for by anybody who works - claiming for it is a right, not a privilege.
I'm probably going to have to claim for my car from my insurance company following a crash I was in a couple of weeks ago - does that make me a "sponger".
I ask again - if somebody can't find work what is to be done with them - should they be sent to workhouses or should they simply be allowed to starve - what should happen to them?
You say that the State comes before my family and if I can't find work at home it is my duty to up sticks and leave them to seek work - just like 'Death's Head Danny' Tebbit did before you.
You refuse to comment on the fact that in the few places where there is work in Britain the prices of accommodation are astronomically high, particularly in the South East.
Where are those who 'get on their bikes' expected to live - hostels, tents, park benches?
The Brexit decision was squeezed through on immigration - people wanting to come to Britain are being forced to do so by conditions we have helped to create
Our shops are full of goods created under slave labour conditions largely because we no longer have the wherewithal to produce them ourselves = economic migrants.
Hundreds of thousands of refugees are fleeing from wars we have facilitated, armed and helped to bring about - the Chilcot Report has shown the part we played in the ongoing and long-running Middle-East wars.
Even if we didn't have a moral duty to take in refugees, we are largely responsible for the refugee crisis - your Brexit means we no longer have to meet that responsibility, that's what it was all about.
You people are stereotypes; your disregard and contempt for foreigners in trouble is equally matched by your contempt and disregard for British people in trouble.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 03:46 AM

"This open doors policy was in tune with what a bunch of unelected bureaucrats"

Whitehall bureaucrats are unelected, and there's far more of them.


"Tony Blair never ever did anything he thought was good for the country without it also being in the first case good for the Labour Party."

They're called 'policies' and parties campaign on them at elections, that's how well tell the difference between them.


"the UK because our country is such a basket case according to the likes Stu,"

Firstly, thank you for the honourable mention. Secondly, your argument os a straw man, I've never said it and don't think it. Must do better Tezza!


"Other nations outside the EU also wished to destabilise the EU for their own ends"

The Brexiteers have done Putin's dirty work for him. За здоровье!


Mr. T's slightly hysterical ranting post of 11 Jul 16 - 02:35 AM doesn't answer the question at all, deflecting blame on to anyone but the tories for not meeting their manifesto pledges. This refusal to accept responsibility for their actions and failures is typical of Brexiteers as we know, and seems to be a tory trait.

They didn't do it. They either failed, or lied (knowing the economic consequences of stopping unskilled labour coming into a country where the natives think themselves above such demeaning work).

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 05:23 AM

"Brexit has cause a potential crisis regarding the future of Britain, the economy has been sent reeling, as was predicted by publications such as The Economist, The United Kingdom stands to disintegrate (I won't ask you to provide proof on your claims on the so-called Scottish change of mind regarding independence - it would be pissing in the wing to, do so, and, having apparently accepted that %25 unemployment is an acceptable figure, you refuse to accept that Brexit has closed a major door on people from Britain seeking work in Europe."

Oh dear Jom what a frightful lather you must get yourself into from jumping at shadows.

1: "............."{print in any particular hobbyhorse} has caused a potential crisis regarding the future of Britain"

Laughable.

2: If the economy of the UK is reeling then God knows how you describe what is happening to the economies of most of the developed world.

3: Threat of disintegration? What the UK? How? A Scottish or Northern Irish break away? You've heard absolutely nothing about either since the Referendum voted us out - nor will you, you prat.

4: What Scottish change of mind Jom? On the 18th September 2014 the electorate of Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK - as far as I know there has been no second referendum and no change of mind. It has been brought to the attention of voters in Scotland that if they opt to go for independence and get it, and if they apply for EU membership they will over the course of the time it takes to get into the EU possibly save up to 250,000 jobs over a period of 5 to 10 years. On the other hand if they decide to leave the UK they would almost immediately lose about 1,000,000 jobs - In Nicola Sturgeons position what would you go for Jom? No on second thoughts don't answer that - you're an idiot. By the way why would I be pissing on the wing?

5: Jom all things are relative, if your current level of unemployment is hovering around 45% with 75% youth unemployment - then 25% unemployment is a very attractive proposition and one hell of an improvement - just think of the Headlines in the "Socialist Daily Worker" or the "Trades Unions Times" - UNEMPLOYMENT DOWN 45%

6: Of course I refuse to accept that "Brexit has closed a major door on people from Britain seeking work in Europe." - Nothing has been decided on that yet, nor will it be for sometime to come - we are leaving the EU we are not leaving Europe. But there again you are in all probability too thick to recognise that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:20 AM

"Oh dear Jom what a frightful lather you must get yourself into from jumping at shadows."
And what a transparent bullshitter you are attempting to avoid facts with your insults.
You've had all the potential threats to Britain's future explained to you in simple terms even you are capapble of grasping - and unstable ecomomy, a high unemployment rate (admitted by yout acceptance of %25) and nowhere to go to seek work, no industrial base tpoo increase the number of jobs, and the possible break-up of the U.K.
Not enough for you, you might try a sharply divided Britain - research for a programme to be broadcast tonight entitled 'Racist Britain' has revealed that racist hate crimes accelerated by %400 in the week following the referendum.   
The Government is in a shambles, resignations and in-fighting - a Ukip supporter has announced he is prepared to spend £10m to remove Theresa May if she is elected.
The fascist right are having a field day thanks to this bigotry-driven decision.
The fact that unemployment fluctuates is totally immaterial - in a situation wehwre people are being forced by law into low paid, subsistence level jobs and below, there are still around 2 million people out of work in Britain today and we are likely to see a massive return of those currently working in Europe in the foreseeable future   
And still you refuse to say what you will to with the workers you would turn into itinerants and the unemployed "scroungers"
Your name-calling, abusive, empty responses underline what you are - a bigoted know-nothing.
Answer the ***** points your arguments have raised.
Stop bullshitting and respond to the facts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 07:55 AM

Stu - 11 Jul 16 - 03:46 AM

1: "Whitehall bureaucrats are unelected, and there's far more of them."

Fortunately for us in the UK the Civil Service, numerous and unelected as it is, does not make policy, does not introduce legislation for Parliament to discuss. Perhaps you should read up on what the powers of the European Commission (Unelected); the Council of Europe; and the European Parliament are before rushing to print. In the UK the Elected Government states what comes before Parliament (Detailed in the Queens Speech at the opening of Parliament) it is the elected members of the House of Commons who debate any proposed legislation, the House of Lords (Appointed) who can table amendments but these are non-binding for the House of Commons to further discuss - After three readings the Bill goes for Royal Assent whereupon it becomes an Act of Parliament - Then, and only then is it handed to our numerous and unelected Civil Servants to implement.

2: "They're called 'policies' and parties campaign on them at elections, that's how we tell the difference between them."

Ehmmmm No Stu what you are talking about are Manefestos issued by each and every political party before an election. Generally they and the promises contained therein are kicked into the long grass once the elected gets into office. "Policies" are what the party once in office have to formulate based on the real situation facing them, not a mess of ideological claptrap.

3: Very pleased to hear that you do not think the UK has become a complete and utter basket case. Listening to the Remain moaners and Anglophobes who constantly talk the country down you'd think it was.

4: The Brexiteers have done Putin's dirty work for him"

Hardly, NATO is safe from being undermined by any grandiose ideas of a Chocolate Box European Army, that none of the major European powers would ever have contributed anything of any significance to (They have been running down their armed forces to negligently low levels now for years if not decades). In terms of defence of Europe the EU has achieved nothing. NATO on the ether hand has. We have voted to leave the EU not NATO.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 08:10 AM

By Jingo, the things you "learn"

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

The European Commission is there to enact the wishes of the EU parliament, and it's members are elected by the council (elected representatives of the member states) and the EU parliament (elected). There has to be a bureaucracy to run any organisation, and the EU's was relatively small compared even to our bloated gutbucket of a civil service. The Lords meanwhile, is an anachronism that desperately needs reform, as it's full of bishops and folk who have arse-licked to paid a bung ("funding", "donations" etc) to get in. It's so undemocratic for anyone to support it and then whine about the EU Commission stinks of rank hypocrisy.


"Manefestos"

Sp.


"Hardly, NATO is safe from being undermined by any grandiose ideas of a Chocolate Box European Arm"

Not everything has military solution T, and Putin's strategic aims can be achieved in many ways that don't require guns, and the Brexiteers have partly facilitated this for him. The EU army would never have happened, that was more scaremongering and speculation from Leave. Ireland would never compromise it's neutrality and although I think some military operations occur with EU co-ordination these are humanitarian and peace-keeping operations.


"Listening to the Remain moaners and Anglophobes who constantly talk the country down you'd think it was."

Turn it up Tezza!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 10:50 AM

"Anglophobes who constantly talk the country down "
The only "Anglophobes" here are those who claim the working people are lazy scroungers and the industries we once had were crap - recognise the description?
The strength of any country is its people, not the predators who milk it dry and stick their money in off-shore accounts.
Didn't you once say that it was the duty of investors to avoid paying tax if humanly (or inhumanly) possible?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

It gets better! With the nasty Leadsom doing one this morning, the collapse of the Brexiteers right-wing cabal is complete. All of the main leaders have done the cowardly thing and refused to stand up for their principles by sodding off at the first opportunity.

This is utterly laughable. The remaining Brexiteers, those rebellious souls standing up against the nasty establishment (of which they are all a part, of course) are now trying to circumvent parliament by triggering Article 50 by Royal Prerogative; precisely the sort of thing the fibbing hypocrites are supposed to be against.

Meanwhile, Labour are taking full advantage of the demise of the politics of truth and evidence (damn those 'experts'!) by having the sort of inter-party bunfight that wouldn't be amiss in a 1920's comedy film.

This is beyond satire.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 12:36 PM

"The European Commission is there to enact the wishes of the EU parliament" - Best laugh I've had so far this month - where on earth did you get that from?

The EU Commissioners are nominated and put forward by their own Governments they most certainly are not selected by any Council (The members of the Council of the European Union are all national ministers from each member state the composition of the Council has ten different configurations depending upon what is being discussed.).

The European Parliament gets final choice of a list of candidates for EU Commission President but has no choice in any appointment of any individual EU Commissioner, they cannot object to any individual Commissioner, they get to rubber stamp the composition of the Commission not who sits on it. It is the Commission acting in what THEY and the Council of the European Union see as being the best interests of the EU who make the rules that govern the running of the EU. While the EU Parliament posses limited legislative power it does not have the power of legislative initiative (It cannot introduce laws or rules - only the Commission can do that)

I'd love to have an example of when the EU Commission ever enacted something that could even be remotely described as being the wishes of the EU Parliament - nice thought though.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:27 PM

"but has no choice in any appointment of any individual EU Commissioner,"
Just like the British Cabinet is appointed by the Prime Minister
Parliament cannot object to the appointment of any Minister and his or her job is to follow the orders of the Party - they are appointed on the basis oF their commitment to the party line rather than their abilities.
Parliament also has a history of totally unelected and highly paid advisors - QUANGOS
Whence the difference?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:37 PM

The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners").[4]There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.[3]
Wiki

MORE DEMOCRATIC
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 04:38 PM

https://europeplanetearth.wordpress.com/what-is-the-eu/4-how-are-eu-laws-created-and-enforced/

Thw process of law making is in fact no less democratic within the EU structure than in that of Westminster. Follow the above link to confirm that.

Of course that doesn't mean that either system doesn't badly need improving.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:57 AM

Mac's Link
Nice and succinct Mac
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:34 AM

Fair point that 'wishes' is the wrong word, but the Commission is there as a legistlative body and implements legislation voted on by the elected representatives of the member states.

Meanwhile, UK scientists are being dropped from EU funded projects due to uncertainties over future funding. The Brexiteers, not content with trying to keep their constituents as dumb as possible by telling them to ignore 'experts' are now trying to drag those in science who do world-leading research which is vital to our economy into their morass of ignorance and wilful stupidity.

Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:45 AM

When I say "The Brexiteers", I mean the leaders rather than the voters themselves. It's become obvious that the motives of many who voted to leave are more complex that the remain side ever gave them credit for.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 08:47 AM

"Nice and succinct Mac" says Jom - but Jom did you understand what it said? Somehow doubt it.

Like the British Cabinet says Jom let us examine it then:

The Prime Minister – an elected member of Parliament
First Secretary of State and Chancellor of the Exchequer – an elected member of Parliament
Home Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Foreign Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Work and Pensions Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Defence Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster – an elected member of Parliament
Health Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Leader of the House of Commons – an elected member of Parliament
Justice Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Education Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Leader of the House of Lords – Former Civil Servant and Ambassador to the USA member of the House of Lords
Business, Innovation and Skills Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Energy and Climate Change Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Culture, Media and Sport Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
International Development Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Transport Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Communities and Local Government Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Northern Ireland Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Wales Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Scotland Secretary – an elected member of Parliament
Chief Secretary to the Treasury – an elected member of Parliament
Chief Whip – an elected member of Parliament
Minister for Small Business – an elected member of Parliament
Minister for Employment – an elected member of Parliament
Minister without Portfolio – an elected member of Parliament
Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General – an elected member of Parliament
Attorney General – an elected member of Parliament
Mayor of London – an elected official appointed by invitation does not attend full cabinet
Conservative Party Chairman – by invitation

So Jom although all Cabinet members are "appointed" all but two have been elected by their respective constituents, that amounts to just under 94% (Or %94 – as you seem to prefer it) of the Cabinet of the UK have been elected to represent the people by the voters in their constituencies, prior to being made members of Cabinet.

The EU Commission on the other-hand are all appointees put forward by their own governments, only the President is "selected" (Note "selected" not elected) subject to the approval of the EU Parliament.
The UK's last three EU Commissioners have never been elected to any public office in their lives, those from other countries are former Government ministers or civil servants. Their days of being elected by constituents was over long before their Governments "appointed" them as Commissioners to the EU, appointments that no-one can challenge. The EU Commissioners have the power of legislative initiative, i.e. they and only they have the power to introduce the legislation that governs the EU and not one single one of them have been elected to their office.

From the link supplied by MGOH and Jim Carroll -

"it is worth noting that legislative proposals in the EU almost always become law eventually."

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 12:16 PM

And all the European Commissioners are appointees from elected members
seme as the Cabinet - what's your point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 12:26 PM

Can we assume we have to wait till you announce where you intend to erect your extermination camps for the unemployed and the tent towns for the itinerant fork-force you propose?
Another couple of classic retreats!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 12:26 PM

Can we assume we have to wait till you announce where you intend to erect your extermination camps for the unemployed and the tent towns for the itinerant fork-force you propose?
Another couple of classic retreats!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

all the European Commissioners are appointees from elected members

Sorry Jom you will have to explain that. No EU Commissioner has to have ever stood for election, or indeed have ever been elected for any public office before being appointed as an EU Commissioner. Currently as you have been shown 94% or %94 of the UK Cabinet had to be elected Members of Parliament in order to be considered for appointment as a Cabinet position.

Jim Carroll - 12 Jul 16 - 12:26 PM - I will treat that post (So good you posted twice) with the utter contempt it deserves.

Thrown any bricks through any windows of late?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:31 AM

"- I will treat that post (So good you posted twice) with the utter contempt it deserves."
What you are trying to say is you will continue to refuse to respond to the implications of your 'Brave New World' Tebbitisms - why wouldn't you?
Your running away from awkward questions on the grounds that responding to them mught expose you for the rightist twerp you are has become your hallmark.
'He who spouts and runs away, lives to run another day' - as the saying nearly has it.
"Thrown any bricks through any windows of late?
Gassed any unemployed people lately?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 04:56 AM

"Gassed any unemployed people lately?"

Has anyone ever done that Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 07:23 AM

Not lately, but as you offer no suggestion of what you intend should happen to the unemployed "scroungers" - it seems pretty well in line with your general attitude to "lazy" workers.
If you don't have the bottle to explain your appalling Toryisms, you must leave us to draw our own conclusions.
The same goes for your itinerant labour force.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM

"No EU Commissioner has to have ever stood for election,"

Tezza: Your argument is based on a false analogy because the EU Commission is the equivalent of the Civil Service and so no-one will ever stand for election. Do you know how much power the unelected bureaucrats of Whitehall wield?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:26 AM

"No EU Commissioner has to have ever stood for election, or indeed have ever been elected for any public office before being appointed as an EU Commissioner."

I googled the first 4 commissioners I came to including Juncker himself and all had previously either been elected members of the European Parliament or elected members of their own national parliaments. So yes and no. They don't need to stand as commissioners an won't be serving elected members anywhere at the time they are appointed by their respective governments for the post. Not ideal but kept in perspective the EU has 28 unelected appointed members in the commission at anytime - the UK currently has many hundreds of unelected members in parliament. Some aren't even appointed as they are hereditary. We have an unelected Head of State. And prior to his resignation the UK had one appointed unelected member of the commission - but at the same time we had two unelected appointed members of the Cabinet in Baroness Anelay and Baroness Stowel.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:43 AM

"I suspect that the most likely outcome is Scotland failing to get special status while part of the UK, going independent, and negotiating a Norway style relationship with the EU for the time being, with freedom of movement, until a Spanish government eventually lifts any veto on Scotland rejoining the EU."

Quite plausible possible scenario excepting that there is no stated Spanish veto on Scottish membership of the EU. During the 2014 referendum a story broke in the UK media claiming that the Spanish would block Scottish membership, however the Spanish Foreign Minister clarified that because the referendum was a legal referendum they had no problem with it. Likewise at the moment there is not any stated opposition in principle to Scottish membership. It is that, like the French and several others, the Spanish believe formal negotiations with Scotland couldn't be held whilst Scotland was still a member of the UK. They are sticking to the EU rules that only the national gvt can be party to negotiations. Obviously because they are terrified it would set a precedent to Catalonia. So the stated problem is to the timing and procedure - not to Scottish membership itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 11:53 AM

Sorry to disappoint you Stu but the Civil Service in the UK and in almost every Parliamentary democracy I know has NO Legislative initiative power - those powers are normally the sole preserve of the elected Government and Parliament. In other words Stu the absolute opposite of what happens in the EU.

No yes and no about it Alan Conn - to become an EU Commissioner you must comply with the following criteria:
1: You must proposed by your own National Government
2: You must have no other post, elected or unelected as this would compromise your duty to the EU Commission (Any other post would be viewed as a conflict of interest)

As the last three people proposed by the UK prove EU Commissioners need never have been elected to any position in their lives.

"there is no stated Spanish veto on Scottish membership of the EU. During the 2014 referendum a story broke in the UK media claiming that the Spanish would block Scottish membership, however the Spanish Foreign Minister clarified that because the referendum was a legal referendum they had no problem with it."

Of course there is no stated Spanish veto on Scottish Membership of the EU. Foreign Ministers of foreign governments generally do not jump their fences until they have to. There are however at least six European countries who I could see vetoing Scotland' application for EU membership. Naturally the Spanish Government would have no problem with a duly initiated Independence Referendum - it has nothing to do with them - what might subsequently happen however would.


"Likewise at the moment there is not any stated opposition in principle to Scottish membership."

Nor will there be until an independent Scotland applies for membership, even then they have no need to state it, they will simply exercise their veto without explanation when the application is considered.

According to Juncker's edict banning all discussion with anyone from the UK until after the UK has formally triggered Article 50 there can be no negotiations. There will also be no legal or binding referendum related to Scottish independence until after the UK has left the EU, because it requires an act by the Westminster Parliament for any such referendum to take place - they not the Scottish Parliament set the question to be asked, the timing and dictate who is eligible to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 12:02 PM

Finished with the itinerant workforce and the "scrounger" death camps then?
Another runner, it would appear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM

"as you offer no suggestion of what you intend should happen to the unemployed "scroungers" - it seems pretty well in line with your general attitude to "lazy" workers.
If you don't have the bottle to explain your appalling Toryisms, you must leave us to draw our own conclusions.
The same goes for your itinerant labour force."

Ah but Jom I love it when you are left to form your own conclusions - they are absolutely hilarious and they serve as examples and exercises in complete and utter, lack of reasoning, common sense and logic and as such they are unsurpassed and unparalleled.

The system they use over in Scandinavia seems quite a good model:

1: Put yourself out of work you get nothing for the first two months
2: If you lose your job through no fault of your own you get 80% of your working wage for a time limited period, after that it decreases quite dramatically.
3: No question of you sitting back and doing nothing at the expense of the state indefinitely. After a given time you are offered retraining so that you can search for work. Refuse the training - your benefits get cut. Complete the training and refuse work found for you - your benefits get cut.

In short Jom the incentive is there to ensure that those out of work are better off in employment and no comparison can drawn that would ever prompt anyone to think - "Oh stuff that I'm better off on benefits".

Itinerant workers? Well if your requirement is for a job for life on your doorstep then I can say in all honesty that, although now retired, I was an extremely successful itinerant worker for 50 years, and in all that time found it no hardship whatsoever - If I can do it anybody can.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:25 PM

"The system they use over in Scandinavia seems quite a good model:"
What a load of distorted bollocks
Scandinavian unemployment schemes are backed up by compulsory unemployment coverage by the trades unions, and also by European safeguards deliberately designed so that no unemployed worker will suffer greatly by the lack of employment.
Employment rates are so high in all three countries that it is possible to find work without too much inconvenience.
In Sweden, around one thirs of the population live in affordable, non- profit-making rented homes
In Denmark, %25 of building is designated to affordable rented homes.
Norway has similar schemes operating in order to make homes affordable.
All Scandinavian workers have the option to work in the E.U. zone and have their benefit safeguards transferred to wherever they go.
(At the present time there are 30,000 British workers on the claiming
Your comparisons are a total distortion.
Apart from the rich South East underbelly, there is in incentive to work as there are no jobs.
"Well if your requirement is for a job for life on your doorstep"
Up to comparatively recently we all had a right to plan to raise a family where we were born and brought up - that is not a "job for life" - it is social stability.
We are no longer a prehistoric nomadic society
Where are those forced to look for work expected to live in your Brave New World and how can we raise families on bikes
Right wing ***** arrogant nonsense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:08 PM

Two points Jom:

1: "Up to comparatively recently we all had a right to plan to raise a family where we were born and brought up"

Talking of a load of complete and utter bollocks, anybody has the "right" to plan anything they want. That means and suggests that those doing the planning actually take some responsibility for ensuring that they work towards their desired goal. But in the real world, where us human beings live there are no such rights. But as you - Jom the Infallible - have spoken - Please tell us all where and when this RIGHT was ever established.

2: How many years have you lived and worked in Scandinavia? In my case, off and on, it totals over 20 years - Don't you dare attempt to presume to tell me what and what is not the case, when it comes to working there.

As previously stated just try to pull the stunt of living off the state in Norway, Denmark, Sweden or Finland as people do in the UK and you will find yourself coming unstuck very quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 03:44 AM

"Talking of a load of complete and utter bollocks, anybody has the "right" to plan anything they want."
In the situation people find themseves in Britain today, people cannot afford to provide for themselves, particularly in the poorer parts of the country (basically outside the South-East soft underbelly)
That has long been recognised and is why a State system was established in the first place - if you don't understand that you must be living on another planet.
You brought up Scandinavia - a perfect example of the State and the Trades unions cooperating to ensure that working people are not left to weather recessions and economic downturns.
I am in no way putting forward Sweden as a perfect system, but it appears to have raised itself above the level of Britain's state barbarity as far as the poor are concerned
SWEDEN
That is not the case in post-Thatcher Britain, where, if you're out of work you're on your own.
The minimum legal wage does not allow poorer families to pay for back-up pension schemes - many families live below subsistence level and things are getting worse.
Thatchers home ownership con has even placed a question-mark over having somewhere to live.
All the schemes introduced by the Labour Government following W.W.2. and bitterly opposed by the Tories, have been gradually dismantled with the exception of the Health Service and that has been rendered virtually useless by under-funding, enforced bureaucracy aimed solely at saving money rather than improving services, and predatory drug companies.
The massive wealth gap in Britain is an indication that society is openly geared to giving the haves more and those in need less - the system no longer serves all of the people.
You have been given the facts of the wealth gap many times; you irst denied its enormity, then you went silent on it - as you do with all these awkward facts.
I don't give a fuck how long you worked in Scandinavia - the unemployment schemes are there to read up - you have a nasty habit of making claims you then refuse to back up with facts and expect us to swallow them - truth and accuracy is not one of your finer features.
One of the major benefits to being part of the E.U. is that, is you find yourself out of work, those in the position to do so are free to seek it outside their own countries - you twots have closed that door to the poor of Britain in order to satisfy your own bigotry.
British people do not "pull the stunt of living of the state - how fucking dare you denigrate working people who are having trouble finding work in a State that cannot provide it -
Have you ever tried living on the pittance that is paid out in unemployment benefit?
"Job Seekers Allowance for a single person is changed annually, and at August 3, 2012 the maximum payable was £71.00 per week for a person aged over 25 and £56.25 per week for a person aged 18–24.[29] The rules for couples where both are unemployed are more complex, but a maximum of £112.55 per week is payable, dependent on age and other factors. Income-based JSA is reduced for people with savings of over £6,000, by a reduction of £1 per week per £250 of savings, up to £16,000. People with savings of over £16,000 are not able to get IB-JSA at all.[30] The British system provides rent payments as part of a separate scheme called Housing Benefit."
I worked all my life in Britain, when I retired I was presented with the grand sum of £119.30 per week pension - the maximum.
Had we not lived in London and had a couple of incredibly lucky opportunities to buy our home and sell it when we moved, we would be living on that sum now.
The vast majorty of people did not have the opportunities we had,; I know that as a fact from the situation members of my family are facing.
Get a grip on reality
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 03:47 AM

I do love it when Jom comes up with what he calls "facts" like the ones he turned up on Scandinavia:

"Employment rates are so high in all three countries that it is possible to find work without too much inconvenience."

Now unemployment in the UK at present is standing at around five percent, or as Jom prefers it percent five.

In Sweden it is 6.7%; in Norway it is 4.7%; in Denmark 4.3%.

So not much difference there Jom. Where the main point of difference lies Jom between the UK and Scandinavia is that a section of our unemployed believe that they have the right to live off the state permanently and our system allows them to do it - the Scandinavian system does not.

Social Housing was the next load of distorted bollocks Jom tried to feed us:

Percentage of Swedes living in social housing is 14% not 33.3% as Jom would have us believe. In Denmark it is 20% and in Norway only 4.2% of the housing stock is available for rented social housing.

Jom would also have us believe that this type of housing is the direct equivalent of the British Council House - simply put it is not, not by a long shot. His "Non-Profit" Housing comes at quite a price through what could be described as "Housing Associations" called "boligbyggelags" - they are non-profit organisations but of course salaries and expenses must be paid, the company does not run for free. Here is how it works (From personal experience).

1: You become a member of the boligbyggelag that costs you around the equivalent of about £30 per year. Your membership has "seniority" privileges which I will go into later.

2: Properties owned by the boligbyggelag are sold to the tenants and the stock of properties generally consists of 1, 2 or 3 bedroom apartments in tenement blocks or terraced houses.

3: Now when one of these properties becomes vacant it goes on the open market (In my case the old woman who owned it could no longer manage the stairs and was going into an old folks home). Here is where the membership privileges come in. I wanted the property, but I did not go to see it, I did not even bid on it. I waited until the price had been agreed and established that the prospective buyer was not a member of the boligbyggelag. The boligbyggelag then sent out a notice to all it's members who had advised them that they were interested in that type of property and I stated that as a member of the boligbyggelag I wanted it - under their rules the flat was sold to me for the agreed price. If some other boligbyggelag member who had more seniority in terms of years of membership than me had also wanted the Flat then he would have got it.

4: Having bought the property I become responsible for all "inside costs" except electricity which is included in a thing called "Fellesgjeld" this is the overall loan the boligbyggelag took out from the bank when they built the block and it covers all outside maintenance, windows, and doors and also covers any improvements that the block management committee decide to have done. Now for my apartment that stood at roughly £37,250 and resulted in a monthly payment of around £500 over and above my mortgage repayments, included in this Fellesgjeld was electricity which was averaged out, at the end of each year they actually compared this averaged out cost to what you had used and in our case we normally got about half of it back. Once you have bought into this your block is run as a separate co-operative with a tenants committee and a dedicated management team supplied by the boligbyggelag. What is decided is what is done and you stump up for it - you cannot opt out. It is all very well organised and once a year the boligbyggelag supplies skips and containers for clearing stuff out and twice a year all residents get together and clean up the entire surrounding area. The boligbyggelag make sure the grass, shrubs, flowers and trees are looked, while the Kommune makes sure that the streets are swept and all roads and paths are cleared of snow and gritted. The Kommunes costs are paid by a proportion of your income tax.

5: When you come to sell the property the whole process is repeated.

6: In the small numbers of properties that are classified as being rented social housing in Scandinavia the rents are based on "historic" costs i.e. rents are not fixed and protected, they fluctuate to meet the actual costs of the buildings upkeep and running costs - As the buildings are kept up they do not degenerate into slums, as was all too often the case with council houses in the UK with fixed rents and ever spiralling maintenance costs.

Most of the rental properties in Norway are private sector rentals and the basic cost for a two bedroom apartment, normally in the basement of a private house, is around £1,200 per month in a city.

The other massively important difference between Scandinavia and the UK is that each and every person in Scandinavia is identified by their personnummer (an eleven digit code) without which you can do and get nothing so the latitude to operate a "black economy" is massively reduced almost to the point of elimination. We could have had the same in the UK but the "left" under "human rights" concerns objected to I.D. Cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM

And I do love where you type masses and say nothing
You have not responded to one single point I've made.
You've been linked to the posuition in Scandinavia - go argue with those links, not me.
Not interested in Scandinavia other than to show they are above tha barbarity of Britain's treatment of the unemployed - which you put forward as an example of how Britain should treat the unemployed - no more.
Respond to the position a British person out of work finds him or herself in and stop trying to create a diversion.
You have yet to tell us where all these cycling workers are going to live as they travel around the country seeking work.
Stop bullshitting and tell us how all your Brave New World schemes for the poor are going to be put into operation
THERE IS NO MEANINGFUL WORK IN BRITAIN APART FROM A FEW BETTER OFF AREAS - what are you going to do about those who can't find work?
Why have you people closed off one of the main sources of work?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 04:31 AM

Talking of getting a grip on reality Jom:

Your SWEDEN link concerns the situation in Sweden in 2006 FFS - That is a decade ago and it states very clearly all the ills and trends in Sweden that you condemn in the UK. The information I have given you is current.

"I don't give a fuck how long you worked in Scandinavia"

But Jom I thought you were a great believer in personal experience, weighting what could be learned from it far greater than from any book learning. There you go Jom another one of your contradictions.

"I worked all my life in Britain, when I retired I was presented with the grand sum of £119.30 per week pension - the maximum."

In which case Jom you must have paid in the minimum in NI contributions. I too managed the required number of contributing years both as a self-employed man and as an Agency worker - My pension through the UK Pensions Service amounts to almost double yours. I suppose what helped it Jom was the fact that while working in Scandinavia for the first four years you work there you are not allowed to pay fully into their welfare and NI Scheme as a Brit you pay into the UK one. It means that you have no claim whatsoever on the National Scheme for the country you are working in - no unemployment pay, no benefits, you have to up sticks and return to the UK. But then you would have known all that had you actually read up on the Scandinavian Welfare System as it applies to foreign workers. But wait a minute, this no benefits thing for four years, isn't that what Cameron suggested? And was howled down for.

Norway makes an absolute fortune from foreign workers who transit through the country not stopping for longer than four years - the "Domestic" element of their Sovereign Wealth Fund derives its income from the reduced NI contributions from foreign workers and the employers full contributions, all gathered in by the Norwegian Authorities knowing full well that they will never have to pay out a single penny collected as those who paid in will not be there to pick it up and because they did not pay full whack are not entitled - brilliant scam isn't it. The money collected in this "Domestic" element of the Sovereign Wealth Fund derived from NI contributions is used solely in investing in Norwegian Companies, R&D and technology, while the other part of the Sovereign Wealth Fund that is derived from Norway's Oil & Gas Industry is invested globally - both make the country a fortune.

"Had we not lived in London and had a couple of incredibly lucky opportunities to buy our home and sell it when we moved"

Now those incredibly lucky opportunities wouldn't have had anything to do with "Thatchers home ownership con" would they? I know shed loads of people who did take advantage of the right to buy scheme and did very well out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 05:24 AM

"I do love where you type masses and say nothing"

Really Jom? I appear to have said a great deal more than you, both in terms of detail and accuracy - 10 year old papers that pre-date the financial crisis of 2008 are a bit irrelevant. Now does that serve to cover addressing the long out of date links supplied by you.

"Not interested in Scandinavia other than to show they are above the barbarity of Britain's treatment of the unemployed - which you put forward as an example of how Britain should treat the unemployed - no more."

Ah more spittle-flecked indignation and a classic example of your inability to understand what has been written. Tell me Jom how can me saying in answer to your question relating to the unemployed in the UK:

In the following post - Teribus - 13 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM

Jom said: "as you offer no suggestion of what you intend should happen to the unemployed "scroungers" - it seems pretty well in line with your general attitude to "lazy" workers.
If you don't have the bottle to explain your appalling Toryisms, you must leave us to draw our own conclusions.
The same goes for your itinerant labour force."

To which I said in answer: "The system they use over in Scandinavia seems quite a good model"

So as you uphold and advocate the Scandinavian model as well as I do we are in agreement. The only thing is Jom, I know what the Scandinavian system delivers, I know what contributions in terms of tax go into making it possible, I know those things from experience. Very true that you are not interested in Scandinavia, you cannot even be bothered to research it sufficiently to substantiate your case.

"Respond to the position a British person out of work finds him or herself in and stop trying to create a diversion.
You have yet to tell us where all these cycling workers are going to live as they travel around the country seeking work."

No Jom - YOU tell them, after all you did it quite successfully didn't you? Or is what you have been telling us all a pack of lies? You probably did exactly the same as me. If there is no work in your particular field on your doorstep and you are not prepared to turn your hand to anything else then you cast round and find some other location where your skills can be utilised. that is what any person out of work has to do.

Unfortunately Jom, there are more than enough British youngsters who have never, ever been in work, they have never ever contributed anything to the system that they take from who believe that it is their "right" to live off the state until something comes along that they might like to have a go at. Perhaps while the going is good they should toddle over to "your" Scandinavia - they'd be in for one f**k of a shock.

"Stop bullshitting and tell us how all your Brave New World schemes for the poor are going to be put into operation"

Fortunately for me that is not my job - you appear to be pretty clueless - you are good at pulling things down, not so good at being constructive - I stated that the UK should follow the Scandinavian model which is one that will support anyone who is unemployed for a while then put them into retraining programmes and place them in work - if anyone does not accept retraining or if they do not accept placement in work then things get very, very hard for them, so hard in fact that very, very few people make those mistakes.

The Scandinavian model does not allow unchecked streams of foreigners to arrive in their country and immediately have access to the full benefits of the Norwegian Welfare System.

"what are you going to do about those who can't find work?"

Nothing Jom, I am not an employer, there are no positions open working for me.

"Why have you people closed off one of the main sources of work?"

I haven't and neither has anybody else - you typically are jumping the gun and presenting a problem that at the moment does not exist and most likely will never exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM

"But Jom I thought you were a great believer in personal experience, "
I never rely on just personal experience - my world is as narrow as is most peoples
I linfk all my claims to actual information - you refuse to do so making your claims unsubstantiated and, when examined, made up by you.
AS far as Sweden is concerned, is you are suggesting that they no longer offer the safeguards they once did, then they are no better than Britain where they refuse to provide a safety net from poverty for workers who cannot find work - is that what you are suggesting?
What is important in all this is the rights of British people not to be forced into poverty by governments who are not doing their job of creating a situation where work is available for all who want it.
There is no meaningful work to be had outside the Sounth-east in Britain even though there is plenty of wealth to be had for those with access to it - Thatchers Two Nations.
As a worker I paid what I could afford - my income was eaten up by daily living, rent and little more.
I was in a far better position than most people with my background.
I ask again, what planet are you existing on - this is the situation of the vast majority of people in these Islands.
When I was young in Merseyside workers on our estate where sneered at by scum like you for buying televisions, then colour televisions, then taking holdidays.....
Why the fuck shouldn't we want these things - I started work at £3-15 a week, which rose to £14 when I finished my apprenticeship.
Eventually, thanks to hard struggle and efforts by Trades Unions, my wages rose to a level where I could afford a few luxuries (not many) - pricks like you started screaming "greedy, overpaid workers ruining Britain"      
I started work doing 50 hours - five and a half days per week, that was brought down through hard slog to 40 hours a week thanks again to the unions - you pricks howled about "lazy workers" every single inch of the way.
My father worked all his life without ever once being unemployed - he died prematurely, worrying about how he and my mother were going to survive on the old age pension when he had to retire.
You once claimed that there was nothing wrong with offshore accounts and hiring experts to dodge tax - you suggest that there is nothing wrong with the rich not contributing fully to the running of Briatain yet, when people fall out of work and are forced to draw dole, toy are up there demanding they leave home families and go look for work elsewhere.
You describe unemployment benefit as "sponging" and suggest that rights to it be reduced.
To are an archetypical Tory prick - you contempt for British working people is palpable and your views on how they should be treated pre-date the Industrial Revolution.
I have no idea whather you clai to be a Chriatian, I suspect you do, but your inhumanity towards your fellow human beings is well in line with teh other "Christians" who stur their stuff on this forum
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

Had we not lived in London and had a couple of incredibly lucky opportunities to buy our home and sell it

So you approve of the right to buy as pioneered by Lady T?
You forgot to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 03:52 PM

"So you approve of the right to buy as pioneered by Lady T?"
Not council homes I don't
I have never objected to people owning their own homes, but council property was devised for those who could not afford to do this, my family were typical examples of this
I grew up on two large council estates in Liverpool - the alternative would have been to rent from Rackrent landlords.
Thatcher destroyed that opportunity for poor families - some may have benefitted at the time but many thousands were conned into taking out mortgages they could not afford - result mass evictions.
Social homes are now a thing of the past in Britain and very few who bought gained anything from having done so.
As with the now silent Teribus - what planet are you living on?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:12 AM

"I never rely on just personal experience - my world is as narrow as is most peoples
I linfk all my claims to actual information"

Oh no you bloody well don't - you swallow and believe "hook-line-and-sinker" any story told you provided it suits your point of view. Example: The tales of Tommy Kenny of summary executions of British soldiers in the trenches by British soldiers, or at least "special squads of Military Policemen" - all of that you said was gospel because you said you "got-it-from-the-horse's-mouth" - he was there - so it must have happened. Only problem was Jom you didn't cross-check a single thing did you? But I did and the more holes I made in your narrative the more you changed the story and at the end of the exchange we finally got the admission that he had never ever seen anything of the sort.

As far as the welfare system as operated in Scandinavia goes I think that that has been fully explained - a support system is in place to provide help for those who find themselves out of work, that system is not open ended and retraining and alternative work is provided which the recipient of benefits is fully expected to take up. That is NOT the case in the UK, where we now have people living on benefits who have never worked a day in their lives, if they have never worked a day in their lives then they have never contributed anything to the system that now supports them. Our point of contention, you claim that such people do not exist, I say that they do.

£3-15 shillings a week as an Apprentice? That's £15 a month or £5 more a month than I got and we were forced to save £4 of that every month and live off the remaining £6. Maybe that was the difference I was taught to save, spend money on what you need, not what you think you want, application of common sense. All of life is made up by choices and people from the time they are children have to make them based upon the information and advice on hand, which they can take onboard or reject. Good advice that I was given as a youngster that I ignored in later years I came to regret and I fully realised the wisdom in what I was being told at the time. When you are young, having fun and having a good time to many may seem to be the "be-all-and-end-all" of existence - but fun and good times come at a price if in having them you ignore or neglect what is important. Living for today and letting tomorrow look after itself is a recipe for disaster - all a matter of choice. So going back to your UK pension you got the pension commensurate with what you paid in, which is fair - don't therefore tell people on this forum that the pension you receive is the maximum UK State Pension - it isn't.

Our "professional" politicians set what they see as being the "Living Wage" - Very well let them live on it.

Our "Professional Politicians" set what the UK State Pension is - Very well let that be their pension.

All expenses paid must be receipted and those with primary homes close enough to be commutable have no allowances for second homes

Apply those rules and just see the rush to leave our "politics" industry and gravy train.

Trouble with Council Housing Stock Jom, was that the Councils because of various Rent acts and their own fixed rents could no longer afford the upkeep of the properties they had. There are no "Council Estates" in Scandinavia, they realise that councils are not in the business of housing, as they know nothing about it. What sets rents in "social" housing in Scandinavia are the actual costs of running and maintaining the properties literally block by block and it is the residents and tenants who pay for it. In the UK those in Council Houses paid their fixed rents and that was all they paid whether it cost the Council more or not. The Council then raised the rates on privately owned property to make up the shortfall, which could lead to the situation where a widow, living on a pension, in a home that she and her husband had worked for and paid for, ended up subsidising a family with four wage earners living in a council house.

The only people I know who got into trouble through the right to buy scheme were those who having bought their property were stupid enough to believe that the price of property could only go up and used their homes through re-mortgage schemes to raise money which they just frittered away - again Jom all a matter of personal choice based upon information available and advice.

Having said that Jom you have the example of two maths teachers in Kent who took advantage of the right to buy scheme back in the early 1980s, they re-mortgaged and bought even more property and rented it out. Just recently they sold up their rented property portfolio of over 700 homes for £70 billion.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:54 AM

£3 15s per week!   He was a bloody "Fat Cat", my wages as an apprentice stonemason were £1 19s 6d, from which I paid National Insurance and PAYE.

It wasn't about money...we boys were proud to be learning a trade, having the opportunity to contribute to our family income and learn skills which would benefit society.
In saying that, none of the local employers were wealthy by todays standards...it was more about status, they sincerely believed that they were the backbone of the local community, providing employment to a large number of people, keeping costs down for necessary maintenance work and keeping society reasonably stable.

Today these principles have been abandoned....personal wealth is the driving force and a huge number of people have become redundant in every respect.
Teribus, as you must have guessed, I agree with your thoughts on personal responsibility and the need for all of us to contribute to society, but the excesses of the hugely overpaid in many sectors of employment is surely wrong and an inhibitor to poorer people contributing fully?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 05:35 AM

"Oh no you bloody well don't - you swallow and believe "hook-line-and-sinker" " No I don't - I credit everything i put forward, you deny it or ignore it, you never put up alternatives, As an instance, you are not going to qualify this statement "£3-15 shillings a week as an Apprentice?" When you've paid your whack at home and your bus fare, there was little left to save unless you spent your leisure hours staring at the wall - don't be a prat all your life. It was only that ware because, at the time, ship repair firms were paying a bonus anyway - the actual level was below that. Beside the point anyway - that's the level we were all on - I'm not complaining and I didn't do so then - neither did any of us. I was putting into context the old Tory claims of greedy, lazy workers. Don't tell me how I spent my youth - I became seriously involved in music in my teens. Who nthe **** are you to tell youngsters how they should spend their time anyway Don't know why on earth you are talking about - council raising the rates of privately owned property to maintain council housing - utter nonsense - but a total waste of time asking for proof of your stupidly made-up claim. My first job on finishing my apprenticeship was with Liverpool Corporation Housing Department, whose job it was to maintain all aspects of local life, housing, parks, roads, public buildings, local facilities... anything that fell within their area of responsibility. Where on earth did the idea that rates were in any way affected by council housing (won't get an answer to this one either) THatcher destroyed council housing because she regarded them as the privatation she dedicated herself to destroying, and in doing so, she caused many families to be thrown onto the street You obviously haven't come across many former council tenants around your particular ivory tower. Any word on where you are going to house your itinerant work force yet - won't get a reply but I enjoy you humiliating yourself by your silence. You really are a caricature establishment arse-licker Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 05:51 AM

"they realise that councils are not in the business of housing, as they know nothing about it"

Yet another example of the utter bollocks that I have come to expect from this "man"

He'll be telling us Rackman was a superb landlord next.

As far as I am aware every council in the UK had a housing stock up to the late 70's early 80's are you seriously trying to tell us that they knew nothing about housing despite having decades of experience of building and maintaining good quality (for the most part) housing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 06:01 AM

That should be Rachman of course before someone pulls me up on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 07:31 AM

The 'Homes for all' scheme instigated by Labour after the war was a modern miracle and recognised as such (but you can't expect a patriot who claims "British Steel was crap" to admit that) - "Great Britain' only refers to 'The Great and the Good Britain' to these State suck-holes.
It came at a time when Britain desperately needed homes and it fulfilled that need - it certainly would have left the British lower paid in the hends of predatory landlords had it not been the success it was - look out Ken Loach's magnificent documentary, 'The Spirit of '49' if it's still available.
The film also shows how politicians, Conservatives mainly, joined by the growing Labour right, systematically smashed Labour's dream and turned Britain back into an exploiters' paradise it now is.   
"That should be Rachman of course before someone pulls me up on it."
Stop spoiling his fun - leave him something significant to say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 01:51 PM

Let me see now Jom:

As far as Council Houses go the council is responsible for making sure:

1: The structure of your property is kept in good condition – this includes the walls, ceiling, roof and windows;

2: Gas and electricity appliances work safely;

3: Shared parts of a building or housing estate are kept in good condition.

Now back in the time that rates were the means by which Councils got their money, Council House rents were fixed, so the Councils had a finite and "known" income from renting. Unfortunately costs for upkeep and maintenance were not fixed, they were subject to increases due to inflation, wage rises and increases in material costs. So tell us all Jom how did Councils raise the money to maintain their housing stock? They did it by increasing the only thing they could increase - domestic rates on privately owned houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 02:14 PM

"Now back in the time that rates were the means by which Councils got their money,"
The council was responsible for much more - I asked how you identified a specific link between rates and council houses - you have not replied so you made it up again.
The rest is meaningless smoke and mirrors
Stop making tings up - you only make yourself look even more foolish
You might produce some actual linked facts, but why break the habit of a lifetime?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:35 PM

Hmmm.

My Mother still lives in the council house (2016) that she and my Father first rented into in 1951. I'm sure that between 1951 and 1979 when they bought the house (against my wishes) the rent increased quite dramatically.

Rents didn't go up! ............. yet more uninformed Taurus excreta.

Just in case you don't understand that Teribus that means BULLSHIT.

Please note I am still using your preferred name not Jom or Shaw which someone else has already pointed out is vaguely juvenile.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 06:40 PM

Domestic rates/poll tax/council tax have never been more than the minority contribution to "the council's" income, and you know it. Most of what councils have to spend comes from central government. The latter maintains draconian control over council spending by imposing arbitrary "caps." Talk about democratic deficit...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 09:59 AM

Rents didn't go up!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/council-house-tenants-rents-rise-four-times-quicker-than-average-wages-a6847421.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:06 PM

Oh WOW Jom:

Rents didn't go up he screams then gives information leading to an article penned on the 1st February 2016 FFS!!!!!

We were talking about back in the 1970s YOU PRAT.

Now tell us how much they increased the rents on those Council houses back then when all those Council Estates were turning into slum dwellings because no Council could afford to maintain them.

How come you always introduce links and date of no relevance to the discussion whatsoever - it is an art.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:26 PM

Well I lived in a council flat in Poplar in east London for three years in the 1970s and my bloody rent went up! What the hell are you burbling on about?!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 04:39 AM

"We were talking about back in the 1970s YOU PRAT."
Where housing estates throughout Britain were inundated with rent strikes and protests because of the constant rent rises YOU FECKIN' EEJIT
obviousl didn't live in council property in 1970s Britain - my family did and still do.
Despite all your insulting invective, you have yet to provide one shred of evidence of a link between rate increases and Council Housing.
You really do believe you can bully and bluster your way through life - did you end up in the galley cooking bad fry- ups because weren't to be trusted with anything else?
In fact, the housing estates I experienced (three in the North of England), one in London) were not being "turned into slums" - they were well maintained both by the tenants and by the councils - I worked on Council maintenance both in Liverpool and Manchester.
The slum properties were in private hands - that's where the term Rachmanism came from.
The problems with council living began when the high-rise dwellings became the order of the day and we were shoved into concrete boxes - a planning disaster.
Tory policy regarding where working people should live was typified by Mrs Thatchers friend, Lady Porter, in Westminster.
She decided that in order to maintain Tory influence in the borough, she would privatise council property so, under the pretence of maintaining their homes, she moved them into asbestos-riddled 'temporary' dwellings, where they remained while she modernised their former homes and sold them off to private buyers.
Eventually, she fled to Israel, owing Britain millions
HOMES FOR VOTES
You will almost certainly not respond to any of this - I doubt if even you would sink as low as to defend it - though, on second thoughts......!
Not only do you believe working people should be treated like profit-making machines - you seem to belive we live like pigs, incapable of looking after ourselves.   
You really are a nasty, insulting class-superior bastard, aren't you?.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Whither Scotland, Northern Ireland?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 08:12 AM

Any response to this - or is it to be yet another of your runners?
Jim Carroll