|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:47 PM Your university wacky-baccy smoking student days must have taken it's toll on your senior faculties. Is the scrap metal business not doing so well, these days ... ? Wonderful! It didn't take long for your mask to slip and those 'special qualities' to show, did it? "university"? "wacky-baccysmoking"? "scrap metal business"? It seems that you don't know anything about me, whereas on the other hand..... |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:39 PM Why that special publicity ? Because of your special interests and position, Mark, and your special background. I shall be watching your posts carefully, especially any that have racism as part of the topic, in case people posting here need any reminders of that position. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Mark Stevens Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:33 PM Well Vic Smith, I just Googled my name and could only come up with an deceased American actor, solicitors, directors, builders, financiers, and barristers. I don't know where you get your information from. Your university wacky-baccy smoking student days must have taken it's toll on your senior faculties. Is the scrap metal business not doing so well, these days ... ? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:17 PM do we now banThe Merchant. Of Veniice because antisemites might like it? If it came to be something antisemites actually used to rally round, then yes there would be many occasions when it would be a bad idea to perform it, and it would be unlikely that many theatres would; it would occupy the same museum-piece territory that Little Sir Hugh does in British folksong. That isn't happening though. Whereas British racists (like at least one participant on this thread) do, in present-day reality, treat blackface morris and gollywogs as triumphalist emblems. The German state, in 1945, had no problem with banning a tune composed by Étienne Méhul in 1807 for an opera in which the heroes are all Jewish. They banned it precisely because the Nazis liked it. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Mark Stevens Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:17 PM Good for you, Vic. Why that special publicity ? I'm honoured. :-) |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:58 PM There's not much on YouTube these days, Vic. It doesn't matter any more, Mark, because I have thought hard about it and remembered the politician's name. Funny thing, though. When I googled your name, the only thing that came up as this long list of names with your name and address in the middle of it. After your details it said:- Activist BSc (Hons) Media Production. HND Moving Image/Photography. Semi-professional multi musician (traditional/British folk). Pagan. Classic motorcycle enthusiast. Huntsman What on earth was that all about? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:49 PM There are traditional dancers in Cote d'Ivoire who actually DO white-up as a kind of disguise, and present themselves as dancing 'spirits'. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Backwoodsman Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:37 PM That was for Eliza (Senoufou's) BTW. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:37 PM There's not much on YouTube these days, Vic. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Backwoodsman Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:36 PM Oh, I'm sure someone who it had nothing to do with would dream up some kind of imaginary ''offence' and declare it 'morally unacceptable'. I'd love to see him 'whited-up' - hilarious stuff! |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:34 PM Jack, it was not your writing I had a problem with,it wasyourrather odd reasoning I had a problem with. So do we now banThe Merchant. Of Veniice because antisemites might like it? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:23 PM A thought has just occurred to me. If my (very black) husband DID join a normally blacked-up border Morris side, and they had to unblack themselves for Shrewsbury, would he have to white himself up to conform to the rules? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:12 PM Well, Mark, I am really glad that those guys were not offended because no-one would want that, would they? By the way, Mark, there was something I wanted to ask you. Recently, I was looking for that Youtube video of you playing your melodeon sitting at a table in a pub somewhere... was it in Hampshire? Surrey? It seems to have been removed which is a bit of a pity. Sitting on the other side of the table was a formerly well-known politician. The trouble is, I cannot remember his name. Honestly, my memory these days! Can you remind me who it was? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Mark Stevens Date: 29 Aug 16 - 03:42 PM Ooops, I forgot to add my name.... I don't think so, Vic. I've not come across anyone or suchlike.... In fact, I was out with a well known Sussex Mummers side several years ago. Whilst walking through Brighton on a hot Summer's day, a group of young Black guys called out to us, 'Hey, I know why you guys black-up! .... [it's] Because Black is cooooooll ! ' Well, that must be ok then, ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 29 Aug 16 - 03:32 PM I'm in the process of changing the words of Ye Mariners All to Ye Golliwogs All!!!!!!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Aug 16 - 02:56 PM Backwoodsman, the point I was making is that you don't measure the moral acceptability of something by counting the number of people who protest about it. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Aug 16 - 02:34 PM it appears not to have a connection to racism, It does, because racists think it does and want to have it performed because they feel it's a statement of what they believe in. all I am suggesting is that the intention is not to offend For some of the people doing it, it's an assertion of white supremacy and a gesture of contempt towards people of African descent. There are enough such people that it makes sense to stop the practice outright. people do sometimes take offence when none is intended. The majority do not intend it to cause offence. But the minority that do are deadly serious about it - murderous thugs who need to be stopped. How many targeted people perceive what they're up to and are disgusted by it is irrelevant. And I am not sure what you mean by "who it appeals to". Daily Mail readers. Nazis. People who want to treat anybody who looks African as a punchbag and who want Gypsies, Muslims and refugees dead. I don't write that badly. You could have worked that out. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 29 Aug 16 - 02:30 PM Mark Stevens wrote:- "Oh no. Not the racist Blacked-up Morris associations again ! I thought this subject had died it's death in the distant past ? I am most disappointed. :-( " It is disappointing, Mark, but we need to be aware that there are some people of extreme right wing tendencies out there who want to use the issue to further their own misguided and narrow-minded views. I am sure that you have come across some who think in this way. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 29 Aug 16 - 01:55 PM No, it appears not to have a connection to racism, all I am suggesting is that the intention is not to offend..people do sometimes take offence when none is intended.And I am not sure what you mean by "who it appeals to". |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Aug 16 - 01:30 PM The connection is not long standing. And it does, now, have a connection to racism, which has nothing to do with anything that happened 500 years ago. That's why the Daily Mailers are so enthusiastic about it. Not because of who it offends but because of who it appeals to. I doubt if anybody would be offended by a Morris side using the Horst Wessel Song as a dance tune: just about nobody would recognize it. And the melody predates the Nazis by a century. Do either of those facts make it acceptable? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 29 Aug 16 - 12:52 PM I was thinking that it might be helpful if the "offended" party took the time to look into the tradition that has offended them . They may discover that it had virtually no connection to any racists elements but was simply a long standing tradition in British culture. I would like to think that dialogue might take the place of instant accusations of racism. Just a thought. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Backwoodsman Date: 29 Aug 16 - 12:29 PM Greg! Behave! 😎😄 |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Greg F. Date: 29 Aug 16 - 12:14 PM apparently an eminent academic Thought you folks across the pond were through 'listening to experts', hence Brexit. ;>) |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 29 Aug 16 - 11:54 AM Ah, Jack, so BanjoRay's interesting link to the Scotsman article may not be entirely the truth? Yet the person who formed these conclusions is apparently an eminent academic who has studied the subject for a long time. Well, that's a shame, as I've now eaten my buttered crumpet and it was very nice! |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Aug 16 - 11:33 AM Each tradition involving blackface should be dealt with individually. Whilst there is some evidence to suggest the element of disguise was important there is also in some cases a strong link to minstrels. Where the link is to minstrels the perpetrators need to have a rethink. Change is a big part of any tradition. Any tradition that is not prepared to change has become moribund. Any tradition that contains elements that have lost their purpose should consider changing those elements if they might cause offence. Several people here have suggested using a more neutral colour if disguise is the only desired effect. I agree with them. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Aug 16 - 11:12 AM After listening for years (in company with my Lewis and Skye mates in our rented Glasgow flat) with enormous pleasure and emotional response to the Gaelic Mass, transmitted every Sunday from Lewis, I now see that this style of singing travelled across to America with Scottish slave masters, where the slaves picked it up (together with the Gaelic language!!) It didn't. It was a style of church singing found all over Britain in the 16th and 17th centuries, and most of the people who took it to America were English. During the 18th century it was suppressed on the mainland in favour of monophonic styles which made the words more understandable (and allowed for a greater variety of metres and texts), but survived both in the Western Isles of Scotland and in the less developed parts of American South, beyond the influence of musical modernizers. It is not of Gaelic origin. and it formed the basis of blues!!! Blues came out of completely different traditions. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Senoufou Date: 29 Aug 16 - 11:02 AM As a baby, I was photographed in my pram with a very nice golliwog beside me on the pillow. It had been knitted by my Irish Auntie Lil, and I loved it for years. It got rather chewed up, but my mother darned it regularly. When I met and married my African husband many years ago, I showed him this old photo, and he laughed. He said, "Who's that African man in bed with you, eh?" I used to collect the Robertson's golly badges. But I do in fact think it was as well to stop using the logo. It's very like the Minstrels idea. Unlike border Morris blackface, it does, directly and unflatteringly represent black people in an unpleasant, mocking way. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Roger Jones Date: 29 Aug 16 - 10:53 AM To prevent any misunderstanding, I merely meant the ban is drivel. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Mark Stevens Date: 29 Aug 16 - 10:50 AM Oh no. Not the racist Blacked-up Morris associations again ! I thought this subject had died it's death in the distant past ? I am most disappointed. :-( Good to see such a positive no-nonsense response on Mudcat.cafe, though ! . ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: meself Date: 29 Aug 16 - 10:47 AM And aren't you a little ray of sunshine, Guest Roger! |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Greg F. Date: 29 Aug 16 - 10:46 AM Nothing wrong with gollywogs Same as blackface minstrels, eh Bozo? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Guest Roger Jones Date: 29 Aug 16 - 10:30 AM Yet more drivel to fill the post-industrial, post-modern vacuum. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 29 Aug 16 - 10:26 AM Well, I am flabbergasted! Never has my gast been so flabbered! After listening for years (in company with my Lewis and Skye mates in our rented Glasgow flat) with enormous pleasure and emotional response to the Gaelic Mass, transmitted every Sunday from Lewis, I now see that this style of singing travelled across to America with Scottish slave masters, where the slaves picked it up (together with the Gaelic language!!) and it formed the basis of blues!!! How absolutely fascinating and astonishing! I think, as it's nearly time for tea, this calls for a hot buttered crumpet! Have to say, when I first heard this form of singing (first line sung solo by the Precentor, picked up in a rising wail by the congregation, so beautiful and moving) I thought then and there "This sounds African to me!" Isn't Mudcat wonderful? You learn so much on here! |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 29 Aug 16 - 09:37 AM Nothing wrong with gollywogs - just a doll unless you are PC obsessed. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 29 Aug 16 - 06:52 AM I have mentioned The Guardian and the Cork Constitution so now I will have to apologise for lowering my standards and mentioning something from last Saturday's Daily Telegraph. This article has the headline:- Grandmother defies convention to sell Golly dolls in effort to reclaim black heritage It starts:- Gollywogs have long been considered a symbol of racist stereotyping. My own opinion is that Ms. Nightingale is a bit misguided and that the Torygraph's intentions in printing the article are dubious and facetious to put it mildly. However, read the article and you will see that it is relevant to this thread. You will see that she has raised a good deal of money for West African schools which is a subject very close to my heart as you can see from one of my websites .... and looking at that again for the first time in a fortnight, I can see that the sources of some photos needs updating. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 29 Aug 16 - 06:30 AM Vic Smith: I think you'll enjoy this article in the Scotsman Ray Thank you, Ray, I did enjoy reading that Black music from Scotland article that you linked to. I think that I was aware of most of the musical points that were made in that unaccredited 13-year-old article but I don't think I have ever seen them joined together in such a well written piece as this unnamed writer contributes. Mind you, I have long been of the opinion that the highest quality of journalism in these islands is currently to be found in The Scotsman though a historical study I undertook had me gasping at the high standard of usage of English to be found in the defunct Cork Constitution. The article that you link to, Ray, mentions that great trumpeter and all-round admirable guy Dizzy Gillespie. I was going to mention in my post of 28 Aug 16 - 10:52 AM that Dizzy was quoted as saying that his ancestors (the surname is a bit of a give-away) were Gaelic-speaking slaves - but I thought that I had made my point without this extra detail. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 29 Aug 16 - 06:05 AM A large photo in today's The Guardian shows a member of the 'ethnic minorities' [(daft expression) says Senoufou and Vic Smith agrees] dancing in a highly exaggerated manner at yesterday's Notting Hill Carnival. The dancer's face appears to me to be blacked up. There are three policewomen watching the dancer's antics. All three are smiling and apparantly enjoying the spectacle rather than taking appropriate action against the terpsichorian offender. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Backwoodsman Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:45 AM And, to be clear, I'm not 'defending' anything. I'm proposing that, if a traditional practice is demonstrably 'offending' a section of society, it should stop. But if there's no evidence of such 'offence', then it should be allowed to continue. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: JHW Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:32 AM Takes the biscuit... |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Backwoodsman Date: 29 Aug 16 - 05:21 AM Straw Man, Steve - I thought better of you. Primary school children fifty years ago were hardly likely to protest, the whole ethos in school then was that teacher was the boss and children had few, if any, rights. Certainly not the right to protest when one of their fellows got the stick. And there's plenty of evidence in the media that our modern black population aren't in any way afraid to protest when they're 'offended' by something. So please explain how a practice, any practice, can be outlawed on the grounds that it 'offends' a specific group, when none of that group has expressed 'offence'. How do you know that it's 'offending' that group when they don't actually say they're 'offended'? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:24 AM Defending blacking up by arguing that there haven't been any complaints from black people is entirely bogus. In my primary school we once had to witness another lad getting six of the best for a very trivial offence, pour encourager les autres. There were 48 of us in the class and not one of us complained about the brutality on show. Was the lack of complaint justification for the abuse? I don't think so. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Senoufou Date: 29 Aug 16 - 04:18 AM Backwoodsman, I bet there hasn't ever been a single complaint from any black person. I'd wager a half of Adnams on it. And to me it's rather an insult to their intelligence for people to imagine that they mind in the least. It is a great pity that there aren't more black folk in the Morris dancing world. Once years ago, at the Morris Ring event in Weston-Super-Mare, I was delighted to see a Sikh, complete with a flower-decorated turban, dancing in a Cotswold Morris side. I did hope then that other 'ethnic minorities' (daft expression) would start to be more in evidence, but I haven't noticed any, sadly. I wish we'd had a video camera to film my husband dancing with Moss Ambrose and Leeds Morris, clutching a stick and skipping along holding his hand. He also danced with Red Leicester at the Straw Bear in Whittlesea. I wonder if I could persuade him to apply for membership of the Witchmen, or Old Glory perhaps? Hook Eagle is another of my favourites, and they black up. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Bloke in Groucho mask Date: 29 Aug 16 - 03:29 AM Be careful of what you ask for. I sang John Barleycorn at an agricultural show in the beer tent a few years ago and one of the organisers came up to me later and accused me of singing the BNP anthem... Anything and everything can and does get hijacked. Presumably if I sang a MacColl song, that makes me a Stalinist. On balance, explaining the "disguise and heritage" aspect of looking like one of the black and white minstrels is long winded. Perhaps accepting that 500 years ago, you wouldn't be mistaken for ripping the piss out of the family down the road might help the argument slightly? After all, far more recently than that, we were hanging a monkey for being French. The swastika has ancient peaceful connotations for a number of religions but you don't see temples in The UK adorned with them*. Common sense can exist even in irrational places, it seems. *That said, when in New Zealand ten years ago I saw the cathedral in Christchurch, since made derelict by earthquake, did have swastikas carved in one area, representing the multi cultural origins of the occupation of the South Island. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Backwoodsman Date: 29 Aug 16 - 03:19 AM So was I, GSS. For the record, are there any records of actual, genuine complaints, from real black- or dark-skinned people, of 'offence' being taken at blacked-up BM dancers? |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: The Sandman Date: 29 Aug 16 - 01:56 AM "Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 28 Aug 16 - 08:38 PM There is a big difference between making an overt racist statement and being just insensitive, unthinking, or just plain ignorant. Whilst the latter may not be as deliberate, the upshot is the same. And, in this day and age, ignorance can look pretty wilful and, to my mind, is no defence." But is blacking up an overt racist statement? I was under the impression it was a disguise. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: BanjoRay Date: 28 Aug 16 - 09:42 PM Vic Smith: I think you'll enjoy this article in the Scotsman Ray |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Greg F. Date: 28 Aug 16 - 08:59 PM ignorance ... is no defence. But it sure is ubiquitous. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Aug 16 - 08:38 PM There is a big difference between making an overt racist statement and being just insensitive, unthinking, or just plain ignorant. Whilst the latter may not be as deliberate, the upshot is the same. And, in this day and age, ignorance can look pretty wilful and, to my mind, is no defence. |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Guest Date: 28 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM Let's have a little perspective here, if blacking up is intended to be a racist statement, then it fails miserably when accompanied by a hat decorated with pheasant feathers, bells and a tatter jacket! |
|
Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Aug 16 - 03:25 PM I think there's something in what Jack Campin said there. There are people who defend blacking up for the wrong reasons, and who have in fact made efforts to hijack English folk traditions for racist reasons. People who go too far in the context of imposing PC play into the hands of the closet bigots who wax loudest about "PC gone mad" - in fact I suspect that sometimes they may in fact be the same people. I rather suspect there's an element of getting free publicity for the festival in the way the organisers seem to have announced it publicly, rather than just dropping the word in the ear of the Morris sides who might be affected, advising them that say Green faces would be more welcome. |
| Share Thread: |
