BS: Feelings = Facts

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:41 AM

Absolutely. And what a deeply political question that is.

Which may be why politicians just cannot resist tinkering with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:25 AM

True, DMcG. It really boils down to what exactly is the aim of State Education, and what should it be?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:19 AM

Very balanced view Steve. I agree with what you say.

Just before the implementation of the National Curriculum, I was invited to attend a Conference about it. After a few talks, we were split into groups for discussion. I related an experience I had had regarding a haggis:-
My class (10 year-olds) was learning about food around the world (and food shortages/poverty/ diet etc) I brought in a haggis for them to sample. We then discussed the ingredients, and how it used offal and oatmeal, available to the Scots crofters, and so on. My point was that in a strait-jacketed Curriculum and timetable, there was no place for a haggis. No opportunity for spontaneous learning. If haggis wasn't mentioned in the Schedule, it was impossible to have it.
An Inspector consigned to our group seemed to like my Haggis Theory, and later I found haggises referred to quite a bit in various literature concerning the National Curriculum. It did make me smile...

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:11 AM

There are few jobs which require the employee to investigate or innovate.


That's true. But there is more to us than being employees. And in some of those we called on to critically review things, elections being one of them. And, I would say, many of us end up having a greater effect on the future by what we purchase, how we consume and who we elect than we do through our day job.

And even if we didn't I am on the "work to live" rather than "live to work" side of the seesaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 05:52 AM

Well I did say that schools should not be fact-free zones. I'm rather glad that someone forced me to chant 7X8=56 a thousand times. It's a fact all right but it's also a building block. My point is that stuffing facts, by worried teachers who always have to watch their backs these days, in order to pass key stage tests or exams provides the danger of utterly quelling all enthusiasm for learning, engendering cynicism even, and worse, produces children with mental sieves, that is, they forget all those "facts" once they've jumped through the hoops. Facts don't exist in isolation. A dictionary is rammed full of disconnected facts, determined only by alphabetical order. For edification through joy, I'd far sooner read Dickens or Jane Austen than a dictionary any day, but that doesn't mean I'll be throwing the dictionary away. All things are interconnected, and the joy of learning is to find the connections. That way you're encouraged to keep enquiring, to keep adding to the never-ending jigsaw. Rote learning, and the force-feeding of pseudo-facts, as happens in all religious instruction lessons, are obstacles to the process. Facts are important, but learning how to learn (how to grab knowledge for yourself rather than have it poured over you, in the words of the great John Seymour) is crucial in enabling us to make sense of the facts. And to stay enthusiastic about learning, the most important thing of all. Quite possibly, it's why we're here.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 04:31 AM

I have to add that, having been educated in a traditional way, through the State system in the early fifties/sixties, (strict Primary school, grammar school, old established university and then teacher training college) I did not experience an enlightened or inspiring ethos while learning. Yet I venture to think it didn't restrict my free-thinking, or prevent me from exploring for myself my own ideas and opinions.
It did however give me an excellent grounding in literacy, general knowledge, self-discipline and diligence, all of which have served me well over the years.
Those Egyptian teachers perhaps used the education system most suitable for their country and their particular work requirements. They also explained to me they just didn't have the resources to implement self-directed learning. (It is indeed an expensive luxury)

I think Charles Dickens explored this very issue in Hard Times.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 04:17 AM

Ah, here we come to the great stumbling block of the matter. I seem to remember Steve and I had an interesting short discussion about this very thing:- Is the aim of education to engender a love of learning, or is it to produce young people who are literate, fit for work, and can perform a useful role in society? I think I actually supported the latter, and to some extent I think I was right.

It's wonderful, of course, to stimulate students to enjoy and pursue their own studies; to inspire and empower them with the tools to investigate for themselves, and even think for themselves. But there are exams to pass and qualifications to obtain. The world of work in the main consists of being responsible. punctual, dependable, reliable and patient. There are few jobs which require the employee to investigate or innovate. (Maybe Design, or Police work...)
There are two different types of Education - the luxury of pursuing one's own ideas at one's own pace and the enjoyment of forming one's own impressions through examination of all the evidence etc.
And the sheer hard toil of absorbing facts for regurgitation in an exam, and to train one for the daily grind of the workplace.
They don't seem compatible to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:38 AM

Sorry again folks. This phone is really prone to converting being picked up into instructions and on Mudcat that becomes "post a blank message."

Pete and Donuel are saying related things I think. Facts are pretty dull and useless things; a date of a battle, the number and groupings of participants, the outcome. To get beyond a "shopping list" you need to move beyond the strictly factual into the interpretation: why was the battle on that date, why were there that number of participants, did the battle have a long term effect.... these interpretations are affected by belief systems in the widest sense. A particular interpretation will "feel right" for example. So a proper education, in my book, is about teaching habits and skills of discernment, critical thinking and lifelong learning, with facts as important but very much in second place.

However, to be good consumers those are not desirable. Businesses are not really that keen on our asking ourselves if we really need that new car, or whether paying extra for a certain brand is a good idea. Ditto politicians don't really like us thinking critically about their statements. So we end up with an education system that focuses on the sort of fact that is easily testable rather than something nuanced. And consequently with voters that may react to politicians based on "feelings" rather than "facts".

And I don't think any of us are immune to this. Andrea Leadsom, for example, had an especial ability to annoy me with her smugness and shallow answers during the Brexit campaign.   She could have easily influenced me to vote against her.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:13 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:59 AM

Contribution to a Charity - Good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 08:57 PM

But they're far more likely to stay in if they were grabbed enthusiastically rather than stuffed in by teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 08:43 PM

However the facts get in there, as long as they get in.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 07:49 PM

Although it has not been challenged I have not yet produced the research pertaining to how and why feelings have a psychological advantage in effecting behavior than facts alone.

It has been shown in real time that conservatives react to a Trump presentation by way of their amygdala which processes emotions while liberals process with a region of their cortex.

Emotional midbrain memory influences behavior quicker and with more experiential memory than the analyzing facts stored in the cortex.
( memory storage is more complex than I have stated)

here is a beginning;
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/09/07/your-brain-on-politics-the-cognitive-neuroscience-of-liberals-and-conservatives/#.V_PnMegrKhc

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 06:00 PM

I think I have told this story before, but it fits here because I think it is an example of how the interplay between student and a good teacher can really work well, and even though strictly speaking "off syllabus" gave insights that probably embedded the syllabus more deeply as a result. I was, I guess, thirteen and my maths teacher remarked in passing that any right angle triangle with integer sides had one of them divisible by 5. I realised when he said it I didn't know how to begin to prove something like that. So I puzzled it over while the rest of the class went on. Then, when we were all doing some exercise or other he was wandering amongst us and I asked him how you would go about proving it. He then stopped the exercises and explained to the whole class how to do it. And in the course of that he tied in some of the stuff we had been learning so we saw how those ideas tied in together.

Factual? Well yes, but much more about skills than facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:50 PM

I used to be allocated each year a group of Egyptian teachers, over in UK to experience our teaching methods. They would observe my lessons and I was asked to give demonstrations in group teaching.
I would give each group of pupils a small card with their task written on it. They had to research something as a team, using the entire school library (the stocking of which was another one of my responsibilities!) and any equipment I'd got hold of, scattered around the unit. It was intended to be self-directed learning (no computers in those days)
The Egyptians were very surprised, as their teaching methods consisted of chalk-and-talk, and repetition by the class of one fact after another, followed by a test. Rather Victorian.
It sounds a bit chaotic, but the children were used to this system, and produced some really good work, and learned to love finding out stuff.
(I also used the Egyptians themselves as a resource for our religious studies of Islam, being careful not to allow any attempts at conversion!)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:28 PM

Not stuffing. That is simply not the way. No-one is claiming that schools should be fact-free zones, but a one-way flow of information from teacher to pupil will ensure two things: that most of the stuffed facts will be rapidly forgotten once the exam hoop has been jumped through, and that any enthusiasm for going out and grabbing knowledge for yourself, rather than have it poured over you, will drain away.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:16 PM

Education DOES involve stuffing facts into heads. If you don't give students facts, they have nothing to think WITH. It just ALSO involves other stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:13 PM

Religion education is vital. There is a lot of religion in the world and it has a massive influence (unfortunately) on how people live their lives and on politics, and any study of history inevitably involves an understanding of the influence of religion on people and events. Enforced religious worship and instruction are thoroughly bad things that have nothing to do with education.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:10 PM

I think the very word 'fact' is open to question. Many 'facts' over the decades have been shown to be misguided opinion.
It's obviously best to stick to proven science if one can, but nowadays researchers seem to contradict themselves daily, and one is left wondering what is true.
This is especially the case with what constitutes unhealthy food.

Regarding personalities and the character of various politicians, I think one's instinctive feelings can be a good guide.
I have never met Trump, but just looking at his facial expressions and body language, let's just say I wouldn't buy a used car off that chap!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 04:56 PM

What seems to be missed here , is that those who think others form judgments from feelings and confuse them with facts , are just as likely to be thought doing the same by those who comprise the former. And when it comes to politics and religion, the notion that if you are arguing for one side , you can be fact filled and feeling free, is spectacularly simplistic. And also, as I have maintained many times before, facts are often interpreted according to bias and worldview.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

"the words "Muslim", "Sharia" and "Iran" only appear in your posts. I did mention "Sharia" and "Iran".

Well which is it, T-Bird? Can't be both.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 03:40 PM

Seriously that was a nice apology to MrT......That's why I quite like you buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 03:37 PM

He's got a lot to be smug about Raedwulf!   :0)

Bloody good show for an Englishman....I would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 02:34 PM

Oh, and I missed it last night, but Ake, really? Farceage was, is, and always will be an oily, self-serving tit. Until he retired (allegedly) from politics, I regularly referred to him as having the most punchable face in British politics, the smug twat.

Far from being "straight and to the point with all the facts and figures at his fingertips.......I would say inspirational", he is a greasy, evasive, lying toad who would scarcely know a fact if it walked up & bit him on the nose. If he is one of the best politicians of his generations, then it's no wonder we're in the effing (I'd type it in full, but I seem to recall you object to what you regard as gratuitous profanity, you old Covenanter fogey, you... :p ) mess that we are in.

Smug. Vainglorious. Self-satisfied, self-centred & self-serving. Narrow-minded. Little Englander. Liar. These are all words I'd associate with Farceage; none of the ones you used. And the only modern-day politician I'd put in the same cess-pit as him is The Salmon. Though, frankly, The Sturgeon is teetering on the brink. All slimy, "I'll promise any pie-in-the-sky nonsense to get you to vote my way" politicians. I really would put them up against the proverbial wall, given half a chance. Before the lawyers, too!! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 02:14 PM

DMcG, I did miss very much the pre-National Curriculum days when we taught in 'Topics'. A subject would be chosen, and all subjects would be woven in, as threads of the main theme. Also (which was utter bliss) we were given free-rein to form our Topics for our class, and one could follow one's interests and use material one had collected.

A whole week (or more if the class was running with it) would be devoted to this Topic. For example, (can you guess?) I devised a huge Topic about the Continent of Africa, which explored ecology, wildlife, human settlement, slavery, climate, crop production (cocoa, coffee etc) music, dance ,art and so on. I wrote plays, showed corruption and dictatorship with various dramas, cooked African meals, on and on and on. I even took the whole class to the theatre to watch a performance by Senegalese dancers and drummers. My aim was to get the pupils to actually 'feel' that they 'knew' Africa, but could also absorb necessary 'facts' which they needed as part of a good education.

Imagine as a contrast opening an old textbook which advocated the Colonial attitude to these 'primitive savages' and the 'wonderful changes' missionaries and Western invaders had achieved. These were the type of books put before young people in the fifties.

I reckon the combination of the more modern National Curriculum and a good, inspired teacher is the best formula for a balanced education.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:54 PM

Using abbreviations of the names of other posters is generally done in a friendly way, and does no harm - but "Smeg" is an unpleasant example of the kind of thing that messes up communication.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:49 PM

Teribus - you have reacted that way in the past to me (and others) pointing out you don't need to be an arsehole to get your point across (and I do mean you, personally, not a generic 'you'). And I have seen you, all too often, refuse to acknowledge that you might just have been... what was the phrase... "opening your mouth instead of giving your arse a chance." Something like that. Who came up with that one, eh? ;-)

So not really a surprise I said what I did? Not entirely convinced you weren't sneering, but one can never tell with t'internet. Certainly, you weren't snarling. Guess I owe a few quid to charity then! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:49 PM

Oops!
I second the applause for Mrzzy and agree how we educate people to appreciate when something is factual and when it is a feeling that contradicts facts is certainly important. (Though I am not convinced there was ever a time the population was good at it and call in evidence demagogues and rabble routers though recorded history). I also agree the kind of books Senoufou mentions are useful in that regard, but they are mainly about different views of the same thing (a historical event for example). Used badly, of course, they can make things worse because they could leave the child with the belief all viewpoints are equally valid, which is the exact opposite of what we are attempting to achieve. So surprise, surprise, a good teacher is an essential part of the mix.

Another thing I think is well intentioned but counter productive is the separation of subjects. We end up if we are not careful with a strong emphasis on the importance of factual accuracy in science subjects with (comparatively) little emphasis on facts in other subjects, as in the "alternative views" of history approach when taught badly.

I always remember visiting countries in Scandinavia and hearing how a particular king was seen as a glorious unifier in the country he originally ruled and a vile oppressor in the country he conquered. You need quite a sophisticated understanding of 'fact' and 'viewpoint' to cope with that, and I don't think you get that with a "copper gives a greeny blue flame test' idea of facts. The result is that how people think of facts when they are dealing with one subject is separated from facts with another.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:36 PM

"the words "Muslim", "Sharia" and "Iran" only appear in your posts. I did mention "Sharia" and "Iran" as they appear to execute offenders in the same cruel manner as did the Nazis. Now Donuel did mention them also something about "It can't happen today" - well it does happen today as I pointed out - in Iran. It also happened a long, long time ago as I also pointed out - but you would have noted that had you actually read anything instead of just reacting to it Smeg.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:33 PM

Today there is a great change in curriculum except for states like Texas and Tennessee.

And South Carolina, Birthplace of Secession.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

Sounds like the curriculum was a big improvement. Has it helped ?
The US text books were once not allowed to say Civil War, it was called The War of Northern Aggression or more liberal "The war between the states.

Today there is a great change in curriculum except for states like Texas and Tennessee.


"It did encourage the children to think for themselves and use 'evidence'..."
Senofou

Evidence has lost its meaning, respect and importance in the US and has been replaced by feelings.

Trump has captured the hearts of Americans despite all his indecencies and inabilities. Neurologically, feelings "trump" the mind.

Unfortunately Clinton does not capture both hearts and minds.

Media says Donald has only a 10% chance of victory.
That's too much for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:24 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:47 PM

Good for Mrrzy, for bringing the discussion back to the original post.

When I finally left teaching, the new textbooks were just beginning to use several sources printed on a page to illustrate the various viewpoints on a topic. One of my responsibilities (450 pupils) was to buy books for Geography, History and (sorry Steve) Religious Education. The History books in particular were changing, and eye-witness accounts, reproductions of documents and if available, photos of events in the past were presented to the pupils. Questions at the end of each chapter would ask for opinions, conclusions or evaluations instead of just a list of facts to memorise. (These were for 12 year-olds) Often there were conflicting accounts,to stretch their minds a bit.
It did encourage the children to think for themselves and use 'evidence' rather than 'teacher says'.
Even the Religious Education fare was presented as Comparative Religion, with the aim that the pupils would know about the great World Religions, how their adherents lived their lives etc. It was in no way Indoctrination, and no one religion was treated as more important than another.
This was one aspect of the National Curriculum which met with my approval!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:42 PM

edit' 'the greater good argument'

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

As Steve says learning how to learn is paramount. Secondly learning how to apply knowledge is fundamental. As you

Mrrzy's question deserves a new thread twice the volume of the Library of Congress. Many seem to confuse data, facts, knowledge and wisdom.
If one is totally bereft of ethics there is a good chance their choices may be evil. Based upon one's education and lack of it, the 'greater argument' is different.

To reach a consensus among people in possession of false concepts will only give an average of false concepts, so it is difficult to arrive at a superior curriculum.

You need many voices in Mrzzy's education thread. Despite personal claims there are few people who have all three branches of intelligence; knowledge, multi disiplinary perspective, wisdom.



In conclusion a vote for Trump is a vote to legitimize the Nazi elements in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:33 PM

Well, T-Burd, the words "Muslim", "Sharia" and "Iran" appear nowhere in any of Donuel's posts. Guess you just had a feeling they did, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:28 PM

Have a second, no in your case probably a first, reading of Donuel's post Smeg, then try and keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:24 PM

OK everybody, all together now... 🎼🎶 Here we go, here we go, here we go...🎶

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 11:51 AM

Logic not MY strong point, T-Bird? What the f**k has Iran, the Muslim faith & Sharia Law got to do with anything under discussio here?

Or was that just another example of your gratuitous bigory & racism?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 11:32 AM

Well not really Smeg, the Nazi's didn't find out anything that hadn't already been known for centuries - sort of made "their experiments" as you call them rather pointless. Logic has never been your strong point has it - now knee-jerk reactions, different thing entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 11:19 AM

Education is about showing people how to find things out (one of the most crucial aspects of which is the golden rule that you must always seek real evidence before accepting anything as true) and giving them the enthusiasm to do so. It isn't about stuffing people's heads with facts that they can then churn out in an exam, and is certainly isn't about passing on beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 11:06 AM

So, just to get back to the actual issue, how can we get education back into education so people will know the difference between feelings about things and facts about those same things as an automatic thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 09:21 AM

No new discovery there Donuel.

Well, T-Bird, guess those Nazi experiments were OK then, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 02:17 AM

"The Nazis did discover many new things like hanging kids under 12 did not kill them but slowly strangled them over the course of a full day."

No new discovery there Donuel.

Ever heard of the old sentence handed down - "To be hung without mercy"?

Back in the days when children were executed weighs used to be attached to their ankles so that there would be sufficient weight on release of the trap to break the neck cleanly and quickly. The weights were called "Mercy".

The means by which offenders in Iran are now publicly executed ensures a long slow death by suffocation as the rope round the neck of the person to be executed is attached to the bucket of a digger and the person is hoisted into the air to be strangled slowly by his own body weight - apparently that is the will of Allah, according to Sharia Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:25 AM

"And my money is on Teribus trying to snarl & sneer at me when he comes back, cos Teribus never thinks he is wrong about anything. Ever."

Then you'd lose your bet Raedwulf. If you doubt that then ask either Joe Offer (FGCM), akenaton (Promised deadline of the Scottish Independence Referendum during SNP's first term in office) or Raggytash (FGCM) what I do when it has been pointed out to me that I am in error. You will find that I put my hands up to it straight away and apologise for my mistake. You obviously haven't read or studied your subject enough to make comment on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:51 PM

It is an education to hear a young person refer to the holocaust as seeming negative.

The holocaust was the outcome of authoritarian right wing politics that started out as extortion, building walls, ghettos and proceeded by steps all the way to gas chambers and furnaces. The most advanced murder systems were by order of Himmler who was physically sickened after witnessing Einsatzgruppen techniques.

Is this even part of education today. Or do whiney kids today need a trigger warning?

The Nazis did discover many new things like hanging kids under 12 did not kill them but slowly strangled them over the course of a full day.

Of course it can't happen here and now. That's what the rational Germans said. The anti immigrant sentiments now are similar to 1928 anti-Semitism. imho

It is not unreasonable Joe, to know what history we could relive by modern sanitary means like neutron bombs* in the future if extreme right wing nuts gain access to the nuclear codes.

*Anyone killed by neutron bombs will not rot or decompose. They dehydrate. It is a more clean bang for the buck.


Yes Virginia there is a negative
and a good Nazi never recants or apologizes.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:28 PM

focused on negativity

Reality is often focused on negativity, as it also often has a "liberal bias".

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:59 PM

Precisely, Steve. And hello Ake. No, Teribus, unfortunately, frequently goes well beyond where he needs to, and has always had a habit of doing so pre-emptively, alas. Stupid really. He's perfectly capable of making a perfectly good civil argument... but all too often can't resist getting nasty. Something I've pointed out to him before (and others have too, I'm sure) to no effect.

It probably says something that the first post I've made in 6 months is to point out to someone that they are being exactly the arsehole that they are bitching about. And my money is on Teribus trying to snarl & sneer at me when he comes back, cos Teribus never thinks he is wrong about anything. Ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:27 PM

I see a new fab five who compose a bunch of media brawlers who think insult or snubs give them reality show gladiator points.
Get yourselves to college if you want to live.
A Glockwulf Orange kulture dies quickly in the light of social shame.

Methinks you are jealous of Steve's expanded horizons compared to your tiny world.

What ever you write by the light of your fiery cross will be disregarded as S&F.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:09 PM

Gosh, I've never uttered a word about "hypnosis stuff" in my life.

I don't do negative, Stanron, unlike you, who gets all defensive at the mere drop of a hat. Fine by me. You're not a difficult man to take on.

Cheers, Raedwulf. I know you'd take me to pieces without demur were I to get beyond meself, and that's exactly how it should be.