BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 02:24 PM

I don't think Joe allows himself to be unduly influenced by anyone here. He is definitely his own man, but usually approachable, civil and fair .....I think his post has been misunderstood as censure, when it was in effect a piece of well intentioned advice.

Some of the bitching here has been worse than "fake news" which has existed in the political arena for as long as I have studied politics.
The charges of "stupidity" which have been aimed at other sections of the electorate always come forward when the elite see their pet theories and social mores rejected en masse.
I think Joe is reminding us that abuse is no substitute the harder task of self examination.....why did these "stupid" people vote the way they did?   Why do they deserve to be called "pieces of dirt", ignoramuses? why do we harbour such hatred for one man who is trying to deliver what he promised to his supporters.....one man within a political system which stinks to high heaven, heaves with corruption, have you all gone mad?

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 02:27 PM

Over the last 30 years the US and USSR-Russia have researched psychic phenomena, hypnosis and propaganda techniques. Some bore fruit and some did not.
The two countries diverged in their research some time ago. The CIA was interested in using hypnosis to individually forget and hide things but Russia went big and applied it to mass attitude change.

While the CIA was stuck in the rut of perception is reality, their program grew stale.

Russia went big and made reality change apply to millions at a time.
It was a long held goal for them.

You might say propaganda is propaganda. To the Russians it is a much more serious matter. They even have us questioning truth, the NYT and the reality of a post truth world.


The reason why I went into this field was to avoid repeating the past.
The past being crazy insane fascist people taking over a government.

Our CIA were bad boys all right but they were short sighted bad boys.
It is still hard for them to accept my premise. It would be admitting they were wrong about something from the beginning.

The idea of psychic warfare or the war for the hearts and minds looks much different today than we ever thought it would.

Bottom line...It is happening. We are at war.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 02:56 PM

Joe, my unique past is a fact. It is also admittedly hard to believe.

We are in the midst of a great Info war and at this stage it is clearly critical to face hard facts.

We all must ask ourselves , are we helping or hurting our cause?

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 03:45 PM

Saying people have made a mistake is not the same as calling them stupid people. That's true even if you say it was a stupid mistake.

Everybody makes mistakes, some of them are mistakes which in retrospect we will recognise as stupid mistakes. "How can I have been so stupid" is something all of us are liable to find ourselves saying - in fact being able to recognise that is an indication of being intelligent.

Voting for Trump in my opinion was a terrible mistake for those Americans who are likely to be much worse off because of his actions. Choosing Clinton over Sanders was also, I believe, a mistake, both because he would have made a better President than Clinton and because Trump would not have beaten him.

I am sure that there will be many normally sensible Americans who in a few years time will reflect on both votes, and think "How can I have been so stupid? "... There will also of course many Trump voters who will think of at the tax cuts skewed in their favour, and who aren't concerned about the needs of people suffering from health cuts, and cheated of the job opportunities they were promised., and they will be congratluating themselves for their wise choice.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 03:45 PM

Thanks, Boo, for a great example of fake news from Twatter.

Lol Greg, you sound just like Trump who refers to anything that he doesn't like to hear as fake news. What is italicized in my post is straight out of the (Russian) horse's mouth if you care to seek it out - I did.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 04:12 PM

Trying to figure out who said what in bobad's post that Greg didn't like. There's this clarification from @Molly MacKew:

Didn't realize this would blow up. Perhaps worth clarifying: this is a threat by the Kremlin against the United States. Against ALL parties.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 04:15 PM

Mr McGrath the selection of Mrs Clinton was nothing to do with stupidity, The Democratic Party and the US political establishment actively work against the nomination of Mr Sanders, I agree with you that he would probably have won the election, but that frightened the establishment even more than the possibility of a Donal-John victory!

I am sure that they were well aware that A Trump Presidency could be much more easily undermined than that of a popular "socialist".

The real enemy is not Mr Sanders or DJ, but the unholy alliance of Republicans and Democrats to dominate the US political system.
The same old story, "Good cop, Bad cop" divide and conquer.

The West needs to re-evaluate its position and provide a new vision for the future......Hint, it will contain very little of the "liberal" smoke and mirrors which have brought us to this pass.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 04:19 PM

Where you come up with this nonsense. . . oh, that's right, living and voting in the U.S. [not].

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 04:37 PM

An alternative view on Bobad's Link. US leaks

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 05:00 PM

AKE
In the company your link report receives a confidence rating of WAG and RIP

'wild assed guess' and 'Russian intelligence probe'

WAG is the lowest rating they give.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 05:25 PM

Is there anyone here who sincerely doubts there is a cyber-info-war being waged by Russia upon the US?

From the little I know hacking entered a new era soon after our STUXNET was altered by Israel and left the US with its ass hanging out.

The full strength of the Russian hacking system was put in place to defeat Hillary. Later Putin vowed to retaliate when Obama added sanctions against Russia closing two properties and evicted 22 Russians from the US. How far this will go we don't know.

We seem to be beyond deniability now but Russia being Russia denies everything on principle.

Still I am wondering if folks here would deny if there is an Infowar.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 05:49 PM

Don't let him get to you, Acme. Everybody here bar a few lunatics knows that he's a confounded idiot. I apologise for him, once again, on behalf of the whole United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 06:23 PM

The Democratic Party machine presumably did its best to promote Clinton over Sanders, Well, it would, wouldn't it.

But that wasn't what settled things. The actual decision was primarily made by individual party supporters and members, One which I suggest many people who opted for Clinton rather than Sanders may already see as a stupid mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 06:40 PM

I wonder, Kevin, if the folks who voted for the Green party candidate now see that as a stupid mistake - since if those votes had gone to Clinton, she would have won handily.

As for Bernie, if voting for Clinton was good enough for HIM - as it was - that should have been plenty good enough for his supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 09:17 PM

Kevin I was reading one of your posts but I was under the impression it was an Ake post and thought to myself "well that is a remarkable turn around. That's the most intelligent thing you have said... oh wait a minute".

I wish my fellow Americans understood at least the method and means of the Trump Russia collusion. I wished they simply cared :@

If I mentioned autobots they would envision the movie Transformers.
However they will understand quid quo pro.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 09:37 PM

The Democratic Party machine presumably did its best to promote Clinton over Sanders, Well, it would, wouldn't it.

Democratic voters here like Bernie, but his promises and policies are the political equivalent of pie in the sky. It was clear that he wasn't going to be able to get any of those things through the House and Senate. Hillary is more of a pragmatist, and was more likely to make some forward progress, particularly in making important adjustments to the Affordable Care Act.

Thanks, Steve. The bullshit that Ake spouts is filtered through his attitude of extreme adequacy. It blinds him to what people are actually saying and doing.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 03:16 AM

Ah, whether the voters like Bernie or not is basically immaterial if the establishment hate all he stands for.
They undermined him in the most despicable fashion and now the voters have swept it all under the carpet in their campaign to get rid of the legally and democratically elected President.

I find it truly amazing that "liberals" would dream of supporting someone who advocated a return to a Cold War stance against Russia, the things Mr McGrath is saying are exactly the things I was saying throughout the election campaign......nobody was listening then, they were all focused on winning the election, manipulated by the Party machine and the Media.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 04:57 AM

Another take on the Dunning-Kruger effect is a quote I heard from a professional skeptic (not James Randi but similar)

And who of us are immune from the pitfall? (apart from me of course!)

"People do not scrutinise that which they are glad to hear"

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: gillymor
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 07:45 AM

Clinton and Sanders are now out out of the presidential picture, in the wake of the recent flameout of the draconian, Trump-backed AHCA the real buyer's remorse is being felt by Democrats and Independents and probably by more than a few of his beloved "uneducated" (whom he recently attempted to wrest healthcare from while giving a massive tax cut to the wealthy) who voted for Donal-Jerk if you look at his plummeting numbers. He's on track to become the worst president in recent memory and possibly in our history if he doesn't shake up his (dis)organization soon. It seems that this commentator had a precognition about Twit's ability as a political negotiator.

Maureen Dowd sent a letter to Twit the other day in the N.Y. Times

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 08:42 AM

"I find it truly amazing that "liberals" would dream of supporting someone who advocated a return to a Cold War stance against Russia"£
This is utter nonsense from someone who supports a president who would offend Muslim countries by labeling them suspect terrorists
"Free Russia" has become the despotic terrorist State that the Soveit Union was accused of being.
Has the USSR behaves as Putin's Russia is behaving it would have been the target of worldwide abuse, Amarica and Poodle Britain's being loudest voice.
Now it is part of "the Free World", appeasement is the order of the day.
Trump is a dangerous liability both nationally and internationally; even his own party is realising what a liability he is, and he is going to war with them.
Trump is a despotic madman - but he can rest easy in the knowledge that he still has the support of, The Klan, Ann Coulter
Ake and Nigel Farage to fall back on when all else fails
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 09:43 AM

Jim, despotic mad man is a bridge too far. Dowd may understate the facts by calling him a belligerent conspiratorial who only thinks h knows 'stuff' surrounded by sycophantic children, but understatements are classy. I remember your four letter word descriptions. Bannon fits the despotic madman best. He actually 'ordered' Congress how to vote.

The keyword in Dowd's column about Trump I believe is "sucker".

Contrary to stated opinions I think Sanders who would be 78 in 2020 could indeed run again, a bit slower next time.

PS Ake the word liberal does not need quotation marks unless it is a quote. Who are you quoting?

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: gillymor
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 09:57 AM

Donuel, I'm not arguing that Bernie won't run again (or that Clinton won't, for that matter). The spotlight now is on Donal-Jerk and his obvious hypocrisy ("everyone's gonna be covered. it'll be beautiful") and incompetence as POTUS.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 10:45 AM

For Fuck sake Gilly!! the mask slipped off the Democratic Party in front of the whole wide world and you want to sweep it under the carpet? You thoroughly deserve the administration you received...in fact you don't even deserve that, you are an outright phoney.

Don asks why I put liberal in quotation marks, it is to signify that people like you Acme and most of this forum are liberal in name only

You cannot bring yourself even to accept the result of an election basically run on your terms, you never in your wildest nightmare imagined that the Electoral college would turn against Clinton, it was your ace in the hole!

Well suck it up children and next time think before you vote.

As far as Donal-John is concerned he has tried to implement his declared policies which are being sabotaged by the Republican establishment.......they, like you "liberals", would have preferred Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 10:50 AM

Keith, Terribus.....

are you sure history is really your thing?

I can't help thinking insectology and microbiology might be a better option.

You see , despite your very determined efforts (credit where its due) - you seem to always find yourselves in the position of being a flat earther.

THe land campaigns of the first world war were conducted by military geniuses, who cared deeply about the thousands of casualties. THe English government cared not a fig for retaining Ireland as part of the kingdom.
no doubt you've got evidence to prove cutting Anne Boleyn's head off was an accident with a potato peeler.

earwigs....study them! its your last hope!!

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: gillymor
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 12:08 PM

In gaining the U.S. Presidency it looks like the old huckster bit off more than he could chew. At least he's consistent though, when a deal went south for him in the private sector he deflected the blame and tried to leave someone else holding the bag as he did with the AHCA fiasco.
Whatever happened to "The buck stops here!"? Good thing HST isn't around to see this Whiner-in Chief.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Stu
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 12:28 PM

Interesting discussion on Radio 4 this morning about the hacker threat to the UK from Russia, which has been targeting a broad range of institutions. Putin must be laughing his cock off as the Brexiteers, their right-wing buddies in Europe and the Trumpers dance to his tune, undoing years of progessive policy and him not having to fire a shot (except in the Ukraine).

He's destabilising Europe and trying the same in the US and yet him and his shills are defended by the turkeys who voted for Christmas. Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 12:45 PM

Keith, Terribus.....are you sure history is really your thing?

The more pertinent question is: "Is reality your thing?" - the question, of course, being rhetorical.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 12:48 PM

Well said, Al.

Akenaton, as you now seem to hate us all so much (well, not all, admittedly - there are a couple of other nutters...), why don't you just leave and never come back?








Please???

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 01:33 PM

Steve, stop acting like a pathetic juvenile who thinks he owns the ball. Or should I blame your early school system? This is not the power or abuse you seek.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 01:43 PM

Stu, your reporter is a bit late to the party but the Russian info war attacks are real and effective.

I saw the effects on Google yesterday while viewing the top 10 results for the Marshall plan.
4 results were that it was Russia, not America that rebuilt Europe.

Battles are building.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 02:05 PM

Bit weird that, Donuel...

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 02:59 PM

The ironic thing could be that the only aspect of Trump that has a smidgeon of sanity, whatever its basis (bent economics or blackmail?), his resistance to the paranoia about Russia, is the one that is most likely to bring him down.

The regime in Russia isn't a pleasant one, but the only people who can make it better are the Russians, and the more foreigners fulminate against Putin, and go in for stuff like miltary manoeuvres on his borders, the more Russians are going to support him, and the greater the danger is that he's going to do dangerous stuff on those borders.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 08:32 PM

Just watched 'The Circus that is The White House.
Best unintentional satire I've ever seen
They can-not be serious!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 09:24 PM

The circus is ood.
Also this week's 60 minutes show was about how Russia employs cyber info wars and how big it is.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: gillymor
Date: 27 Mar 17 - 11:31 PM

My favorite act is the dog and pony show they're running with Devin Nunes.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 06:26 AM

All nations put out pro-self propaganda.
Some nations have the resources and nouse to spread it via many social channels.
Just between Russia and the USA - which country delivers a shock result in elections?
Implication is: which country is the most aggressive and effective in influencing the respective results.
Not a conclusion, but a good place to put the priorities when looking for evidence. eg
Agressive? Ask Mr Litvinenko - er his widow perhaps.
Snowden might know, but could he tell you and live?

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 08:03 PM

Litvinenko would be about being ruthless and brutal. Being aggressive is about waging wars in foreign countries. In recent years, America is way ahead of Russia in that department.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 02:41 AM

Well said Mr McGrath, but you will get little credit here.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 05:45 AM

He "gets credit" from me.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 06:23 AM

Mr. Red, the point is collusion with another country to campaign for a candidate. That is against FEC laws/regulations and possibly the Constitution.

It is up to the courts to determine if collusion amounts to treason.

investigations and testimony are blocked daily by the White House and former Trump surrogates now installed in strategic positions.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 06:29 AM

After successful investigations, the main issue will finally be up for review which is beyond election interference. It is if the sale of Russian oil interests was made to Trump in payment for US policy change toward Russia.

This is the final nail in the Donald coffin.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: gillymor
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 07:57 AM

Yes, McGrath, Putin's been a real pussycat on the global stage. One of the good residuals about the ongoing investigations of the current administration's ties to Russia is that it ensures we won't be forming   any sort of alliance with the murderous thug. Not that the Senate and House and American people would have allowed it any way.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 07:59 AM

I left out the second investigation which was by request of Trump into the question "who told?" and the wire tapping allegation and is that legal/proper.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 01:09 PM

gillymor, good to hear from you. From my perspective with the exception of McCain, Connolly and Lindsey Graham the rest of the Republicans and mad hatter Tea Party seem willing to risk treasonous association with the Russian colluding Trumpists. Once they are called out they claim they know nothing about so and so, or that they didn't know the rules.

Some of the house members who are taking the risk, before they take the 5th, are Nunes, Scalise, Coats, Ryan and over a hundred others.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 04:32 PM

let me see, Russia in Afghanistan, Russia in Ukraine, Russia in Syria

And right now Russia in Russia. Way ahead is a little over-hyped. And what were they doing in those countries that differs from the second Iraq war? the difference is whether you are buying or selling oil.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: gillymor
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 04:53 PM

Donuel, note that while American's attitudes had grown more positive towards Putin (well, Republican attitudes had) after the election, in the most recent Gallup Poll released on Feb.21 his disapproval rating is still 72 per cent with an approval rating of 13 per cent. I'm in the strange position of agreeing with Uber-Hawk (and Twitler supporter) Cheney when he asserted that the Russian hacking of the election may have been an "act of war". It would be political suicide for just about any Senator or Rep. to be seen cozying up to Putin at this point.

Re the House Intel committee, it appears that chairman Nunes, former member of the Trump transition team, has brought the investigation to a screeching halt, most likely at the behest of Twit himself.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 09:48 PM

At least since the end of World War II the USA has energetically been acting in seeking to affect the vote and its iutcome in country after country - even to the extent of successfully reversing the outcome of elections where the wrong people were elected.

So far as I can see the interference allegedly carried out by the Russians amounts to nothing more than revealing the actual texts of emails sent by some people in the USA which they would sooner not have been revealed. Big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 11:21 PM

Russia in Afghanistan, Russia in Ukraine, Russia in Syria

And right now Russia in Russia. Way ahead is a little over-hyped.

America in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.   Russia's Afghanistan involvement is quite some time back, when it was the USSR. And if you count that you have to add in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Chile, Panama, Granada, Nicaragua and a double count of Iraq on the American side of the scale. Way ahead seems fair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 07:51 AM

CBS Evening News‏Verified account @CBSEveningNews

Intel chairman says Russia hired more than 1000 hackers to create fake, anti-Clinton news in key states, won by Trump. @jeffpeguescbs, now

Subject: RE: BS: President Trump/Russia link (FBI)
From: gillymor
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 08:51 AM

To me, as a U.S. voter, Russian meddling in our elections is a very big deal. The stuff from Wikileaks regarding the DNC's preference for Clinton over Sanders no doubt alienated a number of Sander's supporters and caused them to vote a 3rd party ticket or stay home. The biggest deciding factor in the very close election (aside from a 30 year smear job the GOP conducted against HRC when they recognized her as a potential political force) was the poor turnout by Democratic voters because T***p won with a small, admittedly enthusiastic, minority of the U.S. population. It's also highly likely that Russia hacked the RNC and T***p campaign (which incidentally could make the current administration vulnerable to blackmail by Putin) and could have dumped a lot of damaging info on them as well but chose not to as it would be counter to their goal of electing Twit or at least crippling a Clinton administration, I can imagine Reince Preibus pulling his hair out over Republican voter's preference for Twit over their chosen son, Jeb Bush. If the current administration colluded in any way we've got to know because our voting rights have been vitiated too much already by restrictive voting laws imposed by Republican state houses and legislatures. This isn't about getting at Twitler, I'm convinced his greed and mendacity will sort him eventually, it's about preserving the only method, along with exercising our 1st amendment rights, we common folk have to influence the course of our nation. The ongoing investigations may lead to nothing but considering all the smokescreens and lying emanating from the White House I'm convinced they've got something to hide.

As for Putin, I think it would be hard to make the argument that in recent years his Russia is not the most hegemonistic and aggressive power on the world stage.