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BS: UK General Election

Stu 18 Apr 17 - 07:12 AM
Allan Conn 18 Apr 17 - 07:30 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Apr 17 - 08:47 AM
Raggytash 18 Apr 17 - 08:56 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Apr 17 - 09:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 17 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 17 - 09:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Apr 17 - 10:30 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM
David Carter (UK) 18 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Apr 17 - 11:10 AM
Mr Red 18 Apr 17 - 12:25 PM
DMcG 18 Apr 17 - 01:08 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Apr 17 - 01:20 PM
Gutcher 18 Apr 17 - 01:22 PM
DMcG 18 Apr 17 - 01:32 PM
Teribus 18 Apr 17 - 03:01 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Apr 17 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 17 - 03:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 17 - 05:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Apr 17 - 05:10 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Apr 17 - 05:37 PM
Allan Conn 18 Apr 17 - 05:51 PM
akenaton 18 Apr 17 - 05:54 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 17 - 05:58 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 17 - 06:26 PM
Stanron 18 Apr 17 - 06:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 17 - 07:28 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Apr 17 - 07:48 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 17 - 08:03 PM
Stanron 18 Apr 17 - 08:33 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 17 - 08:46 PM
Kampervan 19 Apr 17 - 02:42 AM
Stu 19 Apr 17 - 03:18 AM
akenaton 19 Apr 17 - 03:28 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 Apr 17 - 03:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Apr 17 - 03:46 AM
Allan Conn 19 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM
Stu 19 Apr 17 - 04:05 AM
Stu 19 Apr 17 - 04:07 AM
Iains 19 Apr 17 - 04:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Apr 17 - 05:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 17 - 06:26 AM
Teribus 19 Apr 17 - 07:08 AM
Stu 19 Apr 17 - 07:41 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 17 - 08:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 17 - 08:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Apr 17 - 09:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 17 - 09:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Apr 17 - 09:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 17 - 10:11 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Apr 17 - 10:30 AM
Raggytash 19 Apr 17 - 10:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 17 - 10:32 AM
MikeL2 19 Apr 17 - 10:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Apr 17 - 11:13 AM
Allan Conn 19 Apr 17 - 12:01 PM
akenaton 19 Apr 17 - 12:12 PM
Raggytash 19 Apr 17 - 12:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 17 - 12:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 17 - 12:48 PM
akenaton 19 Apr 17 - 12:51 PM
akenaton 19 Apr 17 - 12:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 17 - 01:41 PM
David Carter (UK) 19 Apr 17 - 01:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 17 - 02:00 PM
Bonzo3legs 19 Apr 17 - 03:22 PM
Greg F. 19 Apr 17 - 04:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 17 - 04:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 17 - 04:35 PM
akenaton 19 Apr 17 - 04:38 PM
akenaton 19 Apr 17 - 05:04 PM
Iains 19 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 17 - 05:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 17 - 05:49 PM
Allan Conn 19 Apr 17 - 06:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Apr 17 - 07:27 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 17 - 08:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Apr 17 - 08:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 17 - 09:29 PM
DMcG 20 Apr 17 - 02:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Apr 17 - 03:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Apr 17 - 03:31 AM
akenaton 20 Apr 17 - 03:50 AM
Raggytash 20 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Apr 17 - 04:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Apr 17 - 04:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Apr 17 - 05:10 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 17 - 05:40 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 17 - 05:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Apr 17 - 05:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Apr 17 - 05:57 AM
DMcG 20 Apr 17 - 07:53 AM
Stu 20 Apr 17 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 08:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Apr 17 - 09:16 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Apr 17 - 09:20 AM
Raggytash 20 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM
Raggytash 20 Apr 17 - 09:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Apr 17 - 09:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Apr 17 - 09:57 AM
Raggytash 20 Apr 17 - 10:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Apr 17 - 10:43 AM
Raggytash 20 Apr 17 - 10:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Apr 17 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 11:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Apr 17 - 11:42 AM
Stanron 20 Apr 17 - 12:53 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Apr 17 - 01:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Apr 17 - 01:40 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Apr 17 - 02:21 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Apr 17 - 04:14 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Apr 17 - 04:17 PM
Bonzo3legs 20 Apr 17 - 05:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Apr 17 - 06:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Apr 17 - 05:01 AM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Apr 17 - 06:01 AM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 06:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 17 - 06:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Apr 17 - 07:21 AM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 07:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Apr 17 - 07:34 AM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 07:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 17 - 08:11 AM
akenaton 21 Apr 17 - 08:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 17 - 08:20 AM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 08:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Apr 17 - 09:14 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Apr 17 - 09:26 AM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 17 - 10:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Apr 17 - 10:08 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 17 - 10:19 AM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 10:22 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Apr 17 - 11:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Apr 17 - 11:24 AM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 11:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 17 - 12:59 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Apr 17 - 01:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 17 - 07:45 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Apr 17 - 08:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 17 - 09:35 PM
Greg F. 22 Apr 17 - 09:55 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 17 - 01:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Apr 17 - 02:36 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 17 - 04:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 17 - 07:42 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 17 - 07:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Apr 17 - 08:25 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 Apr 17 - 11:27 AM
Iains 23 Apr 17 - 01:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 17 - 04:18 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 17 - 06:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 17 - 06:47 AM
MikeL2 24 Apr 17 - 06:58 AM
bobad 24 Apr 17 - 07:51 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 17 - 08:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 17 - 09:07 AM
bobad 24 Apr 17 - 09:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 17 - 09:37 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 17 - 09:59 AM
akenaton 24 Apr 17 - 11:40 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 17 - 12:22 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 17 - 12:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 17 - 01:24 PM
Vashta Nerada 24 Apr 17 - 01:40 PM
Greg F. 24 Apr 17 - 01:59 PM
akenaton 24 Apr 17 - 04:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 17 - 05:42 PM
Greg F. 24 Apr 17 - 06:14 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 17 - 06:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 17 - 08:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 17 - 09:57 PM
akenaton 25 Apr 17 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 17 - 03:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 17 - 05:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Apr 17 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 17 - 07:27 AM
Raggytash 25 Apr 17 - 07:28 AM
akenaton 25 Apr 17 - 07:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 17 - 07:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 17 - 08:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Apr 17 - 08:36 AM
Raggytash 25 Apr 17 - 09:51 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Apr 17 - 10:11 AM
Raggytash 25 Apr 17 - 10:13 AM
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Subject: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:12 AM

Here we go again. Now we have six weeks of campaigning before we have another general election, which is going to centre around Brexit. This is a huge vote and massively important for the UK and beyond.

Please keep discussion civil.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:30 AM

I was thinking will they stop campaigning for the forthoming local elections now? However to tell you the truth there is no local campaigining going on here in Scotland anyway. Certainly not from the Tories. The only leaflets I've got through from them mention no local issues and no local candidates. Only the constitution!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:47 AM

Quite interesting.
At least the campaigning will be very limited in timescale.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:56 AM

7 weeks and 2 days.................. thankfully I will be away for most of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:03 AM

Live bbc news lunch time.... was that May's resignation speech...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:23 AM

I've nothing against lengthy campaigns - there's more chance the mask will slip and the lies be revealed.

I always try to work out some way in which, win or lose, there's some positive outcome. A Labour victory seems a remote hope, but it's possible to envisage that the focus of an election might stop the squabbling and backstabbing in the Labour camp, and they get together and pull off a 1945 victory, which nobody then believed possible.

A Tory victory, and a big Tory victory, is harder to see in a positive way - but it could at least increase the chances that when the Scots have another vote on independence they will go for it. I think that once it sinks in that the Conservatives have brought about the end of the United Kingdom and "Great Britain" that might bring about a wide revulsion against them on the part of the English voters.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:33 AM

There was a brilliant article in the Irish Times last week describing the Brexit negotiations as a "an exercise in damage limitation".
I wonder if this is part of it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:30 AM

i used to love elections when i was a kid. we got a day off school. in fact we were threatened with violence if we came to school by mistake on that day.

since then, i haven't enjoyed them much.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM

As she has an overall majority, the only conceivable reason for this abject U-turn is that she's running scared of her hard-right backbenchers and is hoping for a bigger majority that will leave her untrammelled. As Labour were doomed to lose the 2020 election in any case, the upside is that she may be in power until 2022 only, not until 2025. Organise!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM

Labour have lost my vote by not opposing article 50. I will be voting Lib Dem, if I thought it didn't matter I would vote for Left Unity. But it does, and the Lib Dems are the only English party with a coherent European policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 11:10 AM

until the tories offer them a deal.
10 quid, a giant bag of crisps and Tim Farron as Minister for Bananas...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 12:25 PM

As I remember, when UK referenda were merely mooted, it was said that they made France ungovernable. Not quite here (yet) but the pattern is remarkably reminiscent.
Maybe PM TM is banking on getting in quick, before JC can be shown to be Michael Foot Mk2 and TM knows we are heading for serious heartache over trade, and she needs 5 more years to prove herself & the economy.

Time will tell, let us hope it doesn't shout!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 01:08 PM

In this area last time, Conservatives won by a few thousand over Labour, then roughly one third of those totals for UKIP and one tenth as many voted Green, then Lib Dem.

So if Labour were to take any significant numbers of seats, this would be one. They are unlikely to, and there isnt a viable tactical option. Oh joy.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 01:20 PM

I just hope that brexit fails and we stay in the EU!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Gutcher
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 01:22 PM

Strange, here was me thinking we were now on a five year fixed term, with only a defeat for the sitting government allowing any deviation from that legislation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 01:32 PM

The election can only proceed if enough MPs agree; it os not a simple majority like most votes. I did wonder if the SNP would try to lever another concession as payment for their support but i think they have calculated the risk is too great as they still cpuld no stop it on their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:01 PM

The forthcoming General Election will sort out Tory Brexit rebels and give TM a mandate her opponents accuse her of not having at the moment.

JC and Labour will be shown to be the shambles they undoubtedly are and oddly enough the SNP North of the border will be in for a tougher ride than they think - the SNP might want to squander another £13 million Scotland doesn't have on Indy2 - the bulk of the Scottish electorate want no part of it. As for "Scottish issues" the SNP are going to have to start actually governing Scotland in stead of just sitting back and blaming Westminster s every Scottish Parliament has done since 1998.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:11 PM

I think that may turn out to be a pretty fair summation of whats afoot. But who knows...I've stopped predicting since the referendum. Lots can happen. i don't think its worth arguing about, because its SO unknown.

No one really KNOWS whats going to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:44 PM

Absolutely correct, Teribus! She's called this election, in spite of promising not to, and in spite of the fact that she has an overall majority, in order to get a bigger majority so as to sideline her own scumbag rebels. This is not in the country's best interests, it's an abuse, and let's hope that that point is forcefully put across by all the opposition parties so that the electorate see that they are being used. She's weak, she acts with expedience instead of principle and she's a liability to this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:02 PM

Another broken promise. Are we surprised? Remember David Cameron promised that even if he lost the referendum he would stay on and carry out its verdict? Everyone know what a Liberal pledge is worth. (Remember, voting for tuition fees to go sky high wasn't just a manifesto pledge, only operative if they won a majority, it was an individual solemn promise by Liberal candidates to vote against any such measure.)

Just about the only person in front bench politics whose word is actually worth anything is Jeremy Corbyn, and he gets crucified and ridiculed for it, because that's not how we play politics in this country. Who knows, there might be more people out there than you'd think who are fed up enough with liars they might actually choose to vote for the only honest man in the game?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:10 PM

my bet is that time she did the trick with the Mars bar when she was having an affair with Michael Gove could lead to her undoing, and the secret liaision with Fred West might count against her with some. otherwise, she's bulletproof.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:37 PM

But that's politics innit!!! It has happened before and it will happen again. Take Harold Wilson for instance in 1966, who won an increased majority in a snap election, but then take bugger Brown who failed to call a snap election in 2007!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:51 PM

The SNP will probably privately be quite happy to go to the polls. Even if unionist parties did win several more seats - which is not a given - it is still likely to be an a ringing endorsement for the SNP with them winning the vast bulk of the seats. The idea that the bulk of Scots don't want another vote doesn't hold up. Most polls have showed it as about 50/50 as to whether there should be another vote or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:54 PM

I think that Mrs May is the real deal, she has gravitas and a good political mind.
I said a couple of years a go that she would be the next leader of the Conservative Party.

The most important thing for me at the moment (even more important than Scottish Independence), is extricating this country from the undemocratic shambles that is the EU. Immigration control was the main driver for Brexit and there is no point in remoaners whining about the Free Market etc as Without Free Movement of Labour these things are impossible to obtain.
The Remoaners inside and outside parliament are simply trying to sabotage the referendum result. Mrs May thinks that the only way to shut them up is to obtain a large mandate from the electorate. There are risks involved, risks she did not have to take, she could have pressed on and followed through on the aftermath of winning the section 50 vote.......but I think there may be some skulduggery going on amongst the remoamers and their Blairite fellow travellers in the House of Lords which Mrs May is attempting to head off.

Anyway, this Scottish Socialist will be voting for Teresa and the Conservative Party for the first time in his life.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:58 PM

One thing's sure. Seven weeks is a long time in politics. And you can't trust polls. That's two things, but I never was much good at maths.

Naturally, no opposition party can say that they don't want an election. They don't though.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:26 PM

In her Downing Street address, May blamed Labour, the LibDems, the SNP and the House of Lords for forcing her hand in calling this election. All completely dishonest bullshit. With regard to the three parties, she has an overall majority and they can't prevail against her. With regard to the Lords there is the Parliament Act, and, ultimately, they can't prevail against her either. Her only fear is her own party. A few hard-right backbench rebels can call the shots and she knows it. A healthier majority will sideline them. That's what this is all about. It's not about brexit and it's not about the mainstream issues that should be to the fore when we talk about how the country should be run, which is what a general election should be all about. She's calling an election in order to try to sort out her own party issues, just as Teribus has correctly suggested. That is just wrong. It's a waste of time, a waste of our money and it's bloody undemocratic. The upside is that it means she'll probably be in power only until 2022, not 2025.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:29 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: The upside is that it means she'll probably be in power only until 2022, not 2025.
Dream on.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:28 PM

You do surprise me aken...

But I rather doubt that many Scots will be doing that. And in a few years when no one is going to be using the term "Great Britain" as if if was the name of a country rather than an island (which hasn't been the case since 1801), and you're back in the EU, I hope you'll have changed your mind about such things.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:48 PM

I'm not a betting man.. never been in a bookies in my entire life..

but now an election is being called,
who's more likely to get stabbed in the back first by their own party..

May or Corbyn.....????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:03 PM

Well, Stanron, as you're a hard-right Tory I'd expect that hubris from you. My view is that Labour would have lost a 2020 election, and that would have put this dissembling bugger into power until 2025. As it is, she'll have to contest an election in 2022, just a couple of years after the brexit disaster has manifested itself to the electorate. That's when she'll hit well-deserved oblivion. Only a prediction, of course. And a kind one. Some would say I've been far too generous in allowing her that long. She is very weak and vacillating and she's in the pocket of her own hard right. She's trying to fix that with this election. It won't work. It never does for Tories. Typical bloody manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:33 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Typical bloody manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory.
One could reply with;

Spoken like a typically abusive, dissembling, dishonest, self-deceiving lefty.

But, of course, I'm too polite.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:46 PM

No you're not and never have been. You're a sour, rude fellow of the right. Still, it's all just predictions at this stage. Nighty night. Don't let those Monday-Clubber mates of yours bite.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Kampervan
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:42 AM

I don't care how 'wounded' JC is, having seen at first hand what TM is doing to the health service, to education and to the disabled, there is no way that I could ever vote for the Tories. Just because JC isn't perfect is no reason to vote for the vicious, divisive policies of the Tories.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:18 AM

"You're a sour, rude fellow of the right"

"Spoken like a typically abusive, dissembling, dishonest, self-deceiving lefty."

"Typical bloody manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory."

Pack it in. Please.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:28 AM

Circumstances alter cases Mr McGrath, I change my mind quite often, finding pragmatism can be helpful in viewing the political world.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:42 AM

Ake, you are not and never have been a socialist. As far back in time as you can read them on this forum, your comments have always has a far right slant. Now you may be a trade unionist. But the unions do not always have a left perspective, think of the US teamsters. Think of the attitudes of the unions in the times of Mosley and Powell. You are no more a socialist that the trade unionists who marched with Mosley.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:46 AM

i agree. don't lets get into bitter abuse of each other.

Jeremy Corbyn isn't being derided for being a decent chap, which we all agree - he is. People distrust him because they don't KNOW where he stands on brexit. plus with someone as nutty and unpredictable in the White House - is this the time to chuck out an independent nuclear deterrent. The Yanks are great people but they have a tendency to leave us high and dry as in 1939 and at the time of Suez. WE can't help the fact that this country has a history and many many enemies. Ignore it at your peril. most people don't - and as with Kinnock and Foot before - this alone will send Corbyn unlamented to the bottom of the ocean. his call and he blew it!

I think Ake is right on this point - a lot of labour voters will vote tory. bad news for the nhs and much else.

as usual i will vote labour with a heavy heart - but that's how it is!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM

Re McGrath's surprise at Ake changing his mind - there has been some folks changing stance. People voted either Yes or No at the last Indy vote but it doesn't mean they are defined by that. It is not always their number one issue. There are a hard core of both Yes and No voters who's minds would never be changed but a lot of folk have a softer view on the debate. That is they are open to change. I've not personally come across anyone here in Kelso who has gone from Yes to No because of the SNP's stance on the EU but they do exist in Scotland and obviously Ake could be one of them. It goes the other way too though. I know two people personally who were both quite avid No voters in the Indy referendum. Both Labour voters and spoke out against the Yes campaign. Both are now openly saying they support independence and one who is an English born lady in her 60s who has been a member of Labour all her adult life is now saying she will vote for the sitting SNP member in the GE. I'm not sure how it will go in Scotland. The three unionist seats are all in the top five at risk seats in Scotland - however I imagine the SNP will maybe be a wee bit short of the 50% of the vote they got last time. I imagine they are still likely to be well over the 40% and maybe over 45%. Most of their seats have pretty solid majorities. So possibly the Tories might pick up several seats - but even having say 5 or 6 out of the 59 Scottish seats would make it hard for Ruth Davidson to back up her claims that everyone is sick of the SNP and no-one in Scotland wants another vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM

I'm sorry, but "in your dreams" isn't a debating point. If you want to police the thread, Stu, start with the sour old bugger who made that remark. As for me, I shrug. It's a thread about a controversial issue, not fluffy bunnies (except that I'm in it and I am one). As for this:

"Typical bloody manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory."

That's my opinion of her and I've given my reasons for saying it. But if it offends you so, I'll rephrase it. Ahem:

"Typical bloomin' manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory."

Sorted!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:05 AM

Reasons why May called the election:

1) She has a 20 point lead in the polls.

2) Two dozen tory MPs are under investigation by the CPS over election expenses, and this could force a series of by elections that would deplete her small majority in the commons. This might have been the issue that forced her into a U-turn.

3) Buying time for Brexit; the tories want the mandate for a hard Brexit and free reign over the negotiations without interference from parliament.

4) Labour is an utter shambles and ineffective as an opposition so now's the time to exploit this weakness.

5) Contrary to what May keeps parroting out, the public are far from "coming together" behind her vision of a hard Brexit and she needs to act whilst those against a hard brexet are still unorganised.

6) The LibDems are emerging as the only remain party likely to suggest another referendum to approve the final Brexit deal. Given the 48% need a flag to rally under they could establish both their distance from the tories post-Clegg and their pro-EU credentials. Any momentum they gain in the country would be potentially damaging to the tory hard brexit plans, and so she has to go to the country before the LibDems gather any momentum.

7) At the moment, the non-dom tax-avoiding press barons that won the Brexit vote and last election are still in the ascendancy with their brand of hard right-wing conservatism; they are pushing for a hard brexit and whilst May has their support winning a mandate will be much easier.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:07 AM

"If you want to police the thread, Stu"

I cannot police this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:36 AM

"She's called this election, in spite of promising not to, and in spite of the fact that she has an overall majority, in order to get a bigger majority so as to sideline her own scumbag rebels."
With labour nothing but a has been party it would be a stupid, incompetent prime minister that did not call a snap election in the present circumstances.
   The aftermath will be the interesting time. With such a short lead time the 20% that can be assed to vote will have to think for themselves instead of taking their orders from whatever daily comic they read.
Not much time to spin and weave fairy stories this time around.
I anticipate more than a few applecarts being upset, with potential surprises in Scotland. It also gives an excuse to kick brexit a little further down the road.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:07 AM

It also gives an excuse to kick brexit a little further down the road.

Not much chance of that. There is a fixed timescale of two years from invoking Article 50.
What it does mean is that the end of the negotiations on Brexit won't take place with a general election looming on the horizon.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 06:26 AM

With labour nothing but a has been party it would be a stupid, incompetent prime minister that did not call a snap election in the present circumstances

That has-been party has to agree to the election in the first place and if it did not believe there was a chance of regaining some lost ground it would not have done so. I don't do predictions but no politician on any side is stupid. Dishonest and self serving maybe but stupid, no. We are in a situation where one side believes in one outcome and one believes in another. Given the inaccuracy of recent polls, anything could happen!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 07:08 AM

It will be interesting to see the chaos of Labour Party Candidate selection if "Puppet Master" McCluskey wins the UNITE leadership election in 10 days time if he does that'll hammer a few more nails in Labour's coffin. Irrespective of how much Carroll, Corbyn and McCluskey desire it this country is NOT going back to the early 1970s no matter how hard they try.

One thing that will come out up in Scotland will be the track record of Scottish Governments since devolution - mainly characterised by their unwillingness to govern - by June 8th the increases in Council Tax will have started to bite and questions will be asked why the Scottish Parliament has not used the powers it has to help solve specifically Scottish problems - "It's all Westminster's fault" - is now no longer acceptable. MSP were elected and they are paid to govern Scotland, high time they started doing that instead of just posing and playing at it.

Brexit is a reality, nothing is stopping it now that Article 50 has been triggered. The reality for an independent Scotland is that that will not happen until 2021 at the earliest meaning that Scotland will not be in a position to become a member of the EU until 2026 to 2031. I think the EU will have gone through a great deal of change in the next 9 to 14 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 07:41 AM

"Brexit is a reality, nothing is stopping it now that Article 50 has been triggered."

Quite, but the issue is now whether we have a hard or soft Brexit. Remember about how the Brexiteers banged on about remaining in the single market like Norway etc? Was this just MORE lies? This is still a choice that we have to make as a country, not a choice for those under the control of "puppet masters" Dacre, Murdoch et al with their own agenda's of hatred and division.

Like it or not, we all have a stake in this, and we all still have a say.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:08 AM

Every single reason she's given for calling this election is bogus. The opposition parties can't scupper her because she has an overall majority, and the Lords can't scupper her. Brexit is supposedly signed and sealed way before there's an election "looming." This is all about trying to fix her own right-wing, nothing else. A weak party leader in hock to her own hawks. Puppet masters if you like. She'll need a big majority of mostly complicit softies to overcome them. She may not get it, and she hasn't got the charisma to face them down.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:28 AM

Guy Verhofstadt summed it up well when he said that in the future people will see Brexit for what is, "a catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand, a loss of time, a waste of energy, stupidity."

This latest move is just a continuation of that catfight. Hopefully by the end the fat cats will all be hairless, toothless and de-clawed after ripping each other to pieces for so long.

We can but hope.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:08 AM

Guy Verhofstadt summed it up well when he said that in the future people will see Brexit for what is, "a catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand, a loss of time, a waste of energy, stupidity."

Clearly he's summed up his view of it.

As an optimist I trust we will look back on it as having been the means to get ourselves free of European dominance, and regain an ability to trade with the rest of the world, including the Commonwealth, under our own terms.

Of course, I don't have Guy Verhofstadt's crystal ball, so cannot say that that is how we will look back on it. From the wording he seems very clear that his view will definitely come to pass. He's possibly as creditable as all those who were predicting dire results for the UK from the date of the referendum, were we to vote to leave.
We did so vote (by a majority of those voting) and the calamities failed to materialise.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:10 AM

and the calamities failed to materialise.

Nothing has happened toward Brexit yet! It is the old tale of the man who jumped off the roof and was heard to say when passing the 32nd floor 'so far so good'

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:27 AM

Yes, but the doom merchants were prophesying instant gloom. A massive tax hiking budget to fill some imagined black hole. An instant downturn in production & employment. - These didn't happen.
If you must use such a poor analogy as the man jumping off the roof, then it is "so far so good". But the doom merchants weren't saying he'll kill himself when he hits the ground. They were saying "He'll smash his head open on the parapet before he even gets clear of the roof!"

So far so good. Of course, if a European War kicks off in 2067, someone will say "Oh yes, this was caused by Brexit in 2016. We predicted it at the time."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:11 AM

Yes, but the doom merchants were prophesying instant gloom.

Of course some were, just like the Brexiteers were promising to spend what they save in EU fees on the NHS. Lots of lies were told by all sides. It was the most ridiculous, ill advised, uninformed fiasco we have seen in many a year. The whole point being made was that the referendum should never have happened. It was a result of the posh lads from Eton panicking that they may have there noses pushed out of the trough.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:30 AM

i've heard the calling of this election opportunistic.

you can't help feeling JC and his mates have presented her with the opportunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:31 AM

The pound is still trading at 10% below it's pre-referendum price. You may not have noticed increases in the cost of food and fuel but they have increased over and above what was expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:32 AM

With labour nothing but a has been party it would be a stupid, incompetent prime minister that did not call a snap election in the present circumstances

Keeping your word counts as stupid and incompetent. Which is I suppose the reason why Jeremy Corbyn is said to be stupid and incompetent.

Wouldn't it be a nice change to have a politician in charge who can be trusted to keep his word? I'd like to see Corbyn put this right at the front of his campaigning. Of course any politician can promise to keep their word, and then go ahead and break that promise when it's convenient. The difference is, Corbyn has a record of being honest to back that up, and the others haven't in the same way. And of course Theresa May, in common with her predecessor, has made firm repeated promises which they have gone directly back on.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: MikeL2
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 10:51 AM

Hi Nigel

"

I completely agree with you. I Guess I am an optimist but I do believe Brexit will work out OK for us. Obviously there will be problems and we will have to deal with them.

All this moaning about the PM changing her mind is stupid. Any leader
worth his/her salt would take opportunities as they occur.

I have never voted other than Labour but come June i will vote Conservative.

Cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 11:13 AM

The whole point being made was that the referendum should never have happened. It was a result of the posh lads from Eton panicking that they may have there noses pushed out of the trough.

And there was me thinking that it was because UKIP were gaining in popular vote and the snouts in the trough realised they had to offer a referendum, or a party which would might offer one would start taking more of their seats. (Effectively brought about by popular pressure)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:01 PM

Seriously there are more things affecting people's pockets than a modest council tax raise after it being frozen for 9 years!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:12 PM

Allan, have you ever studied the views of Jim Sillars?
His and mine coincide almost exactly, I am a social conservative, and a socialist politically. David Carter UK obviously does not understand this philosophy.

Back to Independence and Brexit, I am Still very much in favour of Scottish Independence, but think it will be much easier to attain after we (the UK) have extricated ourselves from the EU.
I want to see our people in proper employment not existing in a parasitical lifestyle dependent on cheap foreign labour, which is bad for everyone including the countries that the immigrants hail from.
We need to spend real money on mass retraining schemes in which people will be taught how to perform jobs which are of real value to the Scottish economy.
I would also like to see one years compulsory work experience for all school leavers who were not capable of further education.
A life on derisory benefits must not be an option for our young people.

Independence must mean more than saltire waving, we need to create a completely new society for our new Nation. The little reforms visualised by Sturgeon and the comfortably fat Westminster Scottish MP's will not suffice. A new way of thinking is required for all our citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:25 PM

So Ake, in your little cloud cuckoo land, who is going to gather the lettuce, celery, broccoli etc from the fields. All very much labour intensive and all remarkably badly paid.

Is it going to be all these highly skilled retrained people you suggest.


Just curious you understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:31 PM

I am pretty sure we just said the same thing, Nigel. The referendum was a result of the Tories panicking and getting their knickers in twist over the popular view that those damned furriners were taking over our little island. Verhofstadt had the right idea although his words may not have been spot on. Then again his English is a lot better than my Flemish.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:48 PM

I am a social conservative, and a socialist politically.

This Scottish Socialist will be voting for Teresa and the Conservative Party


Is it me or does anyone else think that anyone who says they are a socialist yet will vote conservative is either a liar or an idiot?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:51 PM

Raggytash...or course we will require "unskilled labour" a misnomer if ever I saw one.
In this part of Scotland, most work used to be centred round small farming and whole generations grew up learning the skills of horticulture and animal husbandry.

There are plenty of people who would rather perform work to such purpose rather than exist in one of Scotlands drug infested, poverty ridden, soul destroying sinks.

A life on benefits must not be an option and work of any description must be given status and value if it is in the interests of the new economy. As I said before, with Independence must come a new thought process and a sense of worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:59 PM

Dave, this election will be about Brexit. I know many socialists who want the UK out of the EU.

You seem to confuse "Socialist" with "liberal". You could not be more wrong......tho' I hesitate to call you an idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 01:41 PM

This Scottish Socialist will be voting for Teresa...

Of course if you intend to vote for Teresa May (as opposed to Theresa May) that puts a rather different complexion on it. The two ladies exhibit a strikingly different image.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 01:54 PM

Ake, if they are socialists they are internationalists. What you are describing are right wing trade unionists.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:00 PM

You seem to confuse "Socialist" with "liberal".

And you, ake, seem to be confusing being a socialist with voting for the complete polar opposite.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:22 PM

Vacuum-assisted closure is more the topic of discussion in our house, or currently in my wife's hospital room, where I'm currently spending all non sleeping/working time!

May is little more than a "founders' day hat lady", and corbyn is little more than a facebook joke!!! If Labour saw sense and replaced corbyn with Hilary Benn, then I would surely vote labour!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:00 PM

You could not be more wrong......tho' I hesitate to call you an idiot.


Well Ake - in your case in light of recent your posts, in your case I wouldn't hesitate one whit.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:13 PM

I think Corbyn is fine but the media have done an excellent hatchet job on him. Sadly, half the population seem to believe what the likes of Murdoch and Rothermere tell them so he will face an uphill struggle no matter how good he may be. Too late to do anything now but if he does not improve the parties profile during and after the election it may be curtains for him. I see Starmer being a much better leader than Benn.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:35 PM

If Corbyn had only said "We are ready to allow you to have an election - but on condition that you agree to take part in a face-to face TV debate with your rivals", I wonder what she'd have done?

She's clearly scared of going into a face-to-face debate, but I can't think how she could have got out of that one. I imagine she'd have said "Of course I am eager to have a debate". Even if she changed her mind the next day, which would be consistent on her part, it would have been embarassing. And in a proper debate Corbyn's strengths and Theresa's weaknesses could have shown up in a way that the knockabout nonsense of PMQs doesn't permit so well. That's why she's running scared of risking such a debate.

It's all right being honest and decent, but a bit of low cunning is also helpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:38 PM

Don't know what you're getting at Mr McGrath, but sorry for the typo anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:04 PM

Brexit is no longer up for debate that debate was won months ago.

All Mrs May needs is to be able to fight without her arms being held by sore "liberals", self serving MPs and most of the contents of "another place"........no not the shithouse, but you're close.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM

The reality is that the Prime Minister can call a snap election whenever and for whatever, subject to approval by MPs under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. If it is thought that the ruling party can become more dominant or lance some internal boils by calling an election then this is the route they will follow. It does require supreme confidence in the outcome however. With dodgy dave's referendum fiasco I would say calling an election early could give rise to totally unexpected results. All we need now is for the Prime Minister to resign her seat andd we will know that brexit is doomed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:41 PM

Vote Labour anyway, Bonzo. They will lose this election big time and Jeremy will have to go. There is blood to be shed. I hate to say all that and I desperately want to be wrong.

Akenaton's main confusion is that he thinks his arse is his brain.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:49 PM

Try googling the name, aken.
.......
Remember, there are, as always been the case, only a minority of the population who vote Tory. If those who dislike them vote, and vote intelligently so as to get rid of them, they'll be swept away. It's only our shabby electoral system that gives them a majority in Parliament.

The same goes for Labour - the natural "party" of government in the UK (while it exists) is a left of centre coalition, reflecting the actual wishes of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 06:28 PM

Ake the point for me is self determination. What relationship Scotland then has with the EU is secondary to that and up to Scots voters. I see the logic of people who want to remain in the UK but personally I struggle to see the logic in someone wanting independence but putting their vote for a party which is blocking the Scottish people's right to decide if they want independence or not!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 07:27 PM

i come from Lincolnshire. WE used to pick the flowers and vegetables. And no - it wasn't paid very well.A lot of Irish people used to come over in harvest time. Students. and strangely enough badly paid English people.

Strange that you think we are incapable of working in our own fields.

Rather like the hosiery and clothes manufacturing - we were rather good at it. Many people thought there was a massive dropping off in quality in stores like Marks and Spencer after they started manufacturing abroad.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:17 PM

We're not incapable but we may not want to. Ask the farmers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:50 PM

the thing is Steve.property has always been a lot cheaper in these areas. you probably stand a better chance of owning property picking peas in Lincolnshire than being a primary school teacher in LOndon.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:29 PM

That kind of seasonal harvesting has for centuries been dependant on migrant workers, whether from far corners of Britain or Ireland, or from elsewhere. Modern transport and other factors make it more practical for such people to stick around - after all different crops, typically in different areas, need harvesting at different times of year.

That's not the kind of lifestyle the settled English choose to go in for generally. That's not laziness, it's just not suited to most people's family life. But such migrants aren't in fact generally taking jobs that the locals would be working in. The shortage of those kind of jobs in such areas is down to other factors.

There'll still be a need for just as many immigrants of various sorts when Brexit finally kicks in, and our comfy fall ends on the hard pavement, but a lot of them won't choose to come to this country - that's already being demonstrated in the NUS, with the exodus of tens of thousands of EU nurses, doctors and other staff.

As has been said already, even if Mrs May cons voters into giving her a victory this time, in 2022 the election will be traumatic for her. But that's a big "if" - remember, no one dreamed Churchill would lose, and lose badly, in 1945.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:23 AM

The Brexit vote is the huge spanner in this election. True, ake, the decision to leave has been made, but no party has sorted out even a vision of the relationship afterwards. So the leavers have every reason to vote in the way they think strengthens their view, even if they are traditionally aligned to another party. Equally, the remainers.

So I would not want to assume Mrs May will end up with an increased majority. She might, of course. But she might not.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:25 AM

Interesting analysis here - How to vote to beat the Tories

Someone has done their homework. Hope it is useful.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:31 AM

And a good article here - Think Jeremy Corbyn is a loser? Oh dear, you've been brainwashed…

Enjoy

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:50 AM

"
We're not incapable but we may not want to. Ask the farmers. "

I see the points I have been making have been completely ignored, when will people realise that we may not always depend on getting "what we want".

In the future it is entirely possible that some people will have several different jobs, especially those involved in seasonal industries.

We have been living well beyond our means for decades, time for a reality check.
Regardless of the Independence question, the whole of the UK needs to re-evaluate "work" and status within society.

The days when everything was about money are behind us and that means examining the role that money has afforded a minority of our citizens.
We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM

"We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed"

Meanwhile the rich get richer.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM

when will people realise that we may not always depend on getting "what we want"

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address and you have already shown your colours on where you stand on that by stating you will vote Tory. Come out of the 1930s mentality and wake up to the fact that things have moved on since you were a lad. Thankfully.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:20 AM

'We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed.'

quite right. lets get rid of the sewage system - go back to dumping shit in the streets.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:54 AM

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address and you have already shown your colours on where you stand on that by stating you will vote Tory. Come out of the 1930s mentality and wake up to the fact that things have moved on since you were a lad. Thankfully.

Unfortunately cloud-cuckoo land.
Complete redistribution of the wealth would make everyone equal (very briefly)but if all jobs paid equally, who would want to be a manager or entrepreneur. There's no increased pay to go with the increased responsibility. Our current society has reached this stage because people strove to "better" themselves. This is the result of centuries of striving. People can still improve their situation by striving, but the politics of envy don't help.

And no, I'm not rich. I'm a government employee, but a realist.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:10 AM

Unfortunately cloud-cuckoo land.
Complete redistribution of the wealth would make everyone equal


Who said anything about complete and equal distribution of Wealth, Nigel? Certainly not me. I have long advocated responsible capitalism as part of the way forward. You have set up a straw man to be, quite rightly, knocked down but no one has suggested equal distribution of wealth. Just a fairer share. That can never be achieved by a party that panders to the richest few while ignoring the needs of the rest. If you think it is right that 5% of the people on this planet own 95% of wealth it is you who are living in the land of the cloud cuckoo. Whatever one of those is.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM

Ah, how easy it is to get sucked Into this "politics of envy" thing. Advocating more fairness than we have now is not envy, Nigel. I've had that thrown at me this week for suggesting that fee-paying schools shouldn't exist. As a matter of fact we could quite easily have afforded to send our two to fee-paying schools had we chosen to organise our finances a bit differently. We didn't do so because we wanted them to mix with the whole spectrum of children and learn how to motivate themselves without pushy parents chasing up their big "financial investment" in them (though we could be pretty pushy for other reasons). Your more pay for more responsibility argument falls down badly in two ways. First, a CEO who pays himself a hundred times more than the lady who cleans the toilets in his office suite is not working a hundred times harder. Ah, you say, but his job carries far more responsibility. Really? So, second point, how easy it is to throw around that word "responsibility." I take it that you're referring to responsibility for maintaining the profits so that the shareholders' dividends won't collapse, or responsibility for setting up a business model that pays producers as little as possible but which charges as high a price for the goods as possible. I suppose the Barclay brothers' accountants are extremely highly-paid, as they are responsible for shielding the brothers' massive wealth from the taxman. Well I'm not prepared, and neither should you be, to put that alongside the responsibility that comes with the job of a care home worker who has to attend to the physical and mental wellbeing of old, sick people, often through the night, often involving very unpleasant tasks, or the responsibility that comes with healthcare workers in hospitals who are responsible for ensuring that deadly infections don't spread through the wards. They're pretty low-paid, aren't they? Is that fair, d'you think?

And I don't think anyone here is advocating absolutely equal pay for everyone. That's your Aunt Sally I'm afraid. Even the most ardent socialist accepts the need for incentives for people to better themselves, believe it or not. It's a matter of proportion though, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address
So what position between the above, and equal distribution of wealth do you advocate?

You clearly disagree with the current distribution, but also appear to agree that equal distribution is not viable. Presumably there is some point in the middle that would suit you, but what is it?

This is very much the same position the Conservative Party find themselves in, but they are howled down for knowing that we should leave the EU even though there is no definite aim for exactly where they should position the country in its future relations with the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:40 AM

Duplicated some of your points there, Dave. I posted before I read yours. Your straw man is my Aunt Sally, I see! 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:45 AM

Plenty of Tories around who DON'T know that we should leave the EU, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:52 AM

Yes, there is some middle ground, Nigel. Unregulated capitalism has been shown to be a disaster as was the communist model of east Europe. As to This is very much the same position the Conservative Party find themselves in I am afraid that has proven to be completely untrue with the present administration. They have shown themselves to be the lapdogs of rich media moguls and powerful corporations over and over again.

I doubt we will get much better after the election and I have fears for the education and health care of my grandchildren. If the wealth was distributed so just a tiny fraction of that 95% of wealth went into education and health care those fears may be allayed.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:57 AM

Sorry - Should make myself clearer. All I am saying is that instead of telling the 95% of us that own 5% of the wealth we should tighten our belts and give up our social care the government should be concentrating on the 5% who can well afford to give up a portion of what they have to maintain a good system. The theory of wealth 'filtering down' just does not work.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:53 AM

And the effect of a CEO is more limited than you might imagine, according to Harvard Business Review


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:35 AM

"In the future it is entirely possible that some people will have several different jobs, especially those involved in seasonal industries."

Tell me Ake, will you be one of these people?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:43 AM

"but the politics of envy don't help."
Neither does such crass comments as that Nigel
The problem with Tories is they can't see the difference between asking that wealth and privilege be divided fairly (if not equally)
There's nothing fair about this (sorry - you can't blue clickie The Independent)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-divided-decade-the-rich-are-64-richer-than-before-the-recession-while-the-poor-are-57-10097038.html
NOR THIS
THere's nothing "envious about wanrting to put that right, but there's a hell of a lot of smugness in describing wishing to do so "envious"
Somewhat, "ding, ding, I'm on the bus", in my opinionion
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:16 AM

A ton!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:20 AM

Sorry - Should make myself clearer. All I am saying is that instead of telling the 95% of us that own 5% of the wealth we should tighten our belts and give up our social care the government should be concentrating on the 5% who can well afford to give up a portion of what they have to maintain a good system. The theory of wealth 'filtering down' just does not work.
Yes, but there is only so much that can be done. Never mind the top 5%, the top 1% already pay more than 1/4 of the nation's income tax.


As for Jim Carroll's "Ding ding, I'm on the bus". I've already stated that I'm not anywhere near what could be considered 'wealthy'. so his comments can't be meant for me. (I'm part of the '95%' too)
But he does seem to respond (at length) without caring to read what he's responding to.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM

Then just try and imagine how large their income must be ..........

............... poor little darlings.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:35 AM

We must also realise that income tax is a direct taxation.

We are taxed irrespective of our income on all manner of other things, by indirect taxation.

We all need food, part of the cost of that food is the cost of transportation, fuel costs. That fuel is taxed and we as individuals all pay for that cost. If someone earns £100 a week or £10,000 a week we are all taxed the same.

VAT on items is non variable for instance, many other examples could be given.

The taxation system is not entirely fair or equal.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:36 AM

the top 1% already pay more than 1/4 of the nation's income tax.

That really does sum up what I am on about. Just consider how much they have left after paying their taxes. Do you really think and extra few pence on their tax will make a difference to their lives? Will they not be able to afford to buy food or medicine or heat their home? If they are contributing 25% of the total tax revenue, just how much do you think they are earning?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:57 AM

We all need food, part of the cost of that food is the cost of transportation, fuel costs. That fuel is taxed and we as individuals all pay for that cost. If someone earns £100 a week or £10,000 a week we are all taxed the same.

VAT on items is non variable for instance, many other examples could be given.


Not strictly true, nor accurate.
VAT is not non-variable. It can be (in UK) at rates of 20%, 5%, or Zero%. (Exempt VAT is another matter)
To a great extent VAT replaced purchase tax, or luxury tax. As such basic foodstuffs are zero-rated for VAT, so you don't pay VAT on them. Nor do you pay VAT on the transportation costs on that food.
Luxuries still attract VAT, and one would expect the poorest paid to be spending a higher percentage of their disposable income on necessities, rather than luxuries. So even the impact of VAT will be greater on the 'better off'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:21 AM

Nigel I am aware that most food is not taxed, however the company that produce the food pay tax, they pass on that cost to the consumer, the transportation of that food uses diesel, that diesel is taxed and the cost passed onto the consumer, all the on-costs of producer and distributor, even the shops own costs are passed onto the consumer.etc etc.

VAT is non variable in terms that we ALL pay the same amount for any given item. Simples.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:43 AM

This may need a little simplification.
VAT is 'Value Added Tax'. Each business in the chain accounts for tax on the value they have added to the transaction.
This is done by reclaiming the VAT they have been charged by their suppliers (from HMRC), and paying the VAT that they charge to their customers (to HMRC).
Where the supply they eventually make is zero-rated (basic foodstuffs, children's clothes, books etc.) they have no VAT to pay across to HMRC, but this does not prevent them reclaiming the VAT they have been charged by their suppliers. As such, there is no VAT included in the sale, even in the costs of making that sale.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:51 AM

Agreed, but the producer, distributor, shopkeeper all pay other taxes. In order to make a profit, those costs are passed onto the consumer.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:02 AM

Welll.. thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments and equipment
that are at the moment vat free from affordable European Music gear discount warehouse shops...

Of course... all this means SFA to millionair/investment vintage guitar collectors
like that ex pat Brit spiv git living in Monaco who bought Mick Ronson's Les Paul... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:04 AM

"I've already stated that I'm not anywhere near what could be considered 'wealthy'. "
Doesn't matter Nigel - it's become a knee-jerk defence against a glaring social anomaly
Your own position is immaterial - that's what you are defending and that's what I'm criticising
It's not as if we haven't been here a thousand times.
Criticism of inequality is not, and never has been envy politics - it is simply a description of what is increasingly wrong with our society.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:42 AM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:02 AM

Welll.. thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments and equipment
that are at the moment vat free from affordable European Music gear discount warehouse shops...


How does Brexit affect that?
And why are they VAT free at present?

The only VAT free musical instruments I know of are for students.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:53 PM

punkfolkrocker wrote: Welll.. thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments
I had to pay VAT on a guitar I bought in the USA a couple of years ago. Well before Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 01:16 PM

Musical instruments are subject to VAT at Standard Rate - currently 20%. This applies to all instruments except those sold to students under the AIP Scheme. It includes instruments imported from outside the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 01:40 PM

oops.. it's alright.. I'd only just woke up and wasn't thinking straight... 😳

Of course I was still half asleep and confusing it with additional import duties
which atm aren't an issue with Euro music purchases...

However, USA purchases used to be cost effective even after import duties and UK VAT paid on the total including shipping costs..

But sadly no longer so affordable any more..

Definitely wont be surprised if the same happens with purchases from Europe after brexit...

That'll hurt countless skint UK musicians...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:21 PM

[just had me dinner]

back 10 / 15 years ago I was buying great bargain guitars from usa when we got about nearly 2 dollars for a quid
and shipping to UK was still reasonably affordable...

so how long after brexit before our EU neighbours get 2 quid for a Euro...??? 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:14 PM

Some years ago, as a survival gift to myself following major surgery (twice), I bought a Martin OM-28 Marquis from a US dealer. I got a few cents over $2 to the £ and, with the 40% (yes, that's FORTY - FOUR-ZERO - PERCENT!) discount US dealers will give, even after adding shipping costs, import duty and VAT, I saved at least £800 compared to UK prices.

Sadly, those days are now gone, thanks to the BrexShit Buffoonery.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:17 PM

Import duty is only about 4% on instruments, PFR. It's VAT (which is calculated on the value of the instrument plus shipping costs plus import duty! Tax on tax!) that's the killer, IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:32 PM

"thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments and equipment that are at the moment vat free from affordable European Music gear discount warehouse shops..."

All non business to business sales from one EC member state to another VAT are charged to VAT at the rate applicable in the country of origin.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 06:07 PM

Bearing in mind I actually passed Economics & Accounting A levels.. and OND Business Studies 40 years ago
whilst playing in a hippy punk band...

My grasp of all the complexities of post brexit trades deals, exchange rates, tax, travel visa bureaucracy, etc..

is that skint UK musicians will be even more f@cked than ever before...!!! 😬


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM

The point you are missing about VAT, Nigel, is that low earners spend a much higher percentage of their income on VAT than high earners do. This is what makes a tax on goods and services fair less equitable than a tax on income at source. VAT is the third largest source of income to the government. If they were to do away with it and add an extra few pence to the rate of top earners it would be a much fairer system.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:01 AM

Dave, I would have thought that low earners would pay a much lower percentage.
The basic costs of living:
Rent/mortgage: Exempt from VAT
Basic foodstuffs: Zero rated
Public transport: Zero rated

The percentage they spend on 'luxuries' (Beer, tobacco etc.) is their own choice. But the basics of life are VAT free.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM

Nigel, If a company employs people they are paid a wage, out of those wages they pay tax. Their wages are paid from the cost of the goods they produce. The consumer buys those commodities and thus pays a share of the tax that the employee pays.

If the company makes a profit they would pay tax (one hopes). Those profits come from the cost of the goods they sell, thus the consumer by purchasing those goods almost pays a share of those taxes too.

The same applies to the distributor and the shopkeeper. Although there is no DIRECT taxation on some goods there is an indirect taxation of almost everything that is bought.

Those on the least income can thus pay proportionally more of their income in tax.

That element of tax is the same no matter what the income of an individual is, rich or poor.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 06:01 AM

The comment I was responding to was that low earners spend a much higher percentage of their income on VAT than high earners do.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 06:20 AM

But VAT is only one element in a whole raft of taxes, most of which are unavoidable to the less well off.

In discussing personal taxation one cannot take VAT in isolation.

If anything those who are fortunate enough to have a large income, can with varying degrees of jiggery pokery, legal and illegal, avoid paying taxes that are due.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 06:24 AM

Nigel -

The percentage they spend on 'luxuries' (Beer, tobacco etc.) is their own choice. But the basics of life are VAT free.

Heating is not exempt. Fuel is not exempt. Sanitary towels are not exempt. Need I go on? And please don't tell me you are going to come out with the usual crap about the poor spending all their money on chips and beer!

Let's try a simple example to illustrate why they spend more of their disposable income on VAT and why taxing income at source would be fairer.

10 people

1 earns £1000
9 earn £100

9 pay income tax at 20% = £20 each = £180
1 pays 20% on £100 (£20) and 40% on £900 (£360) = £380

Total revenue to government = £560

All pay a £10 gas bill with 5% VAT = 50p each = £5

Total government revenue including VAT = £565

Disposable income of 1 = £620
Disposable income of other 9 = £80 each

% of disposable income paid on VAT

1= 0.08%
9= 0.625% - Nearly 8 times as much.

Now, let us remove VAT

Same people. Increase top income tax to 45%

9 people have same disposable income.
1 pays 20% on £100 (£20) and 45% on £900 (£405) = £425
His disposable income drops from £620 to £575.

Government income goes from £565 to £605
9 people are happy that their fuel bill has gone down by 50p
The government have more to spend on social care.
1 person pays £45 more tax but still has nearly 8 times more disposable income than the others.

Does this not seem fairer?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 07:21 AM

Dave,
That totally ignores Personal Allowances which have been steadily increased over recent years, keeping the really low paid out of paying income tax at all. While being reduced/cancelled for those on really high incomes.

Also the maths is dodgy, as you give them all a cost for 'Gas' but don't use this to reduce their disposable income.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 07:26 AM

The tax free allowance threshold is the same for everyone irrespective of income Nigel, and as I have to point out there are many ways in which we all pay indirect tax, again irrespective of income.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 07:34 AM

The tax free allowance threshold is the same for everyone irrespective of income Nigel, and as I have to point out there are many ways in which we all pay indirect tax, again irrespective of income.
I linked to the facts above.
In answer to your comment I'll give an actual quote from that page:
The Personal Allowance goes down by £1 for every £2 of income above the £100,000 limit. It can go down to zero.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 07:44 AM

I stand corrected Nigel, I just pity the poor little darlings earning so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:11 AM

It doesn't ignore anything, Nigel. There is no mention of those other things because they are not required. I have kept it simple to demonstrate that those on lower incomes pay a higher percentage of their disposable incomes in VAT.

Let us make it even simpler.

If my disposable income is £1000 and I pay £10 in VAT on goods and services I have used 1% of my disposable income on VAT.

If I purchase the same things yet have only £100 disposable income I have used 10% of my disposable income on VAT.

It really is quite simple. Now, can you tell me how someone who has more money pays more in VAT on the same goods and services?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:18 AM

What's the point of whining, that's the way modern capitalism survives......financial aspiration. Until we learn that is unsustainable and dangerous to society , we are up shit creek.

The problem is that nobody really wants the alternative, because we are under the illusion that we are free.......we could all win the game, but unfortunately the dice are heavily loaded.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:20 AM

...but I accept the point about disposable income. It was me using the wrong phrase. It should have been income after tax. But even if we reduce the amount of disposable income by the total gas bill everyone's disposable is reduced by the same amount and the same principle applies.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:59 AM

"First, a CEO who pays himself a hundred times more than the lady who cleans the toilets in his office suite is not working a hundred times harder. Ah, you say, but his job carries far more responsibility. Really? So, second point, how easy it is to throw around that word "responsibility." I take it that you're referring to responsibility for maintaining the profits so that the shareholders' dividends won't collapse, or responsibility for setting up a business model that pays producers as little as possible but which charges as high a price for the goods as possible." - Shaw

Number of points here:

1: The CEO doesn't pay himself, his salary along with any bonus payment or share options are NOT set by himself, they are offered and negotiated by the Board of Directors and by the shareholders.

The wages and terms of employment "the cleaning lady" (Why should it be a lady?) are set by Company pay scale, Agency rates, Union Agreements.

The "cleaning lady" works set hours, the CEO does not.

The "cleaning lady" is responsible for ensuring that she performs her own duties and responsibilities to the required standard. The CEO is responsible for ensuring that everyone working for the Company performs their duties and responsibilities to the required standard.

2: How about the "responsibility" of ensuring the company stays in business in relation to product, marketing, development and book in order that its employees still have jobs and continued employment.

Nice to see that you still cling like a limpet to your ideological belief in your clichéd stereotypes - obvious that you have never actually worked in any commercial environment.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:14 AM

.. funny that... when I last worked in a suit and tie for prestigious central London Chartered Surveyors..
the partners at the top were a bunch of unscrupulous self important greedy c@nts;
deliberately breaking the law on Nat insurance and terms of employment for all mere mortals below them in the office hierarchy... 🙄

.. at least they got done for it when they suddenly discarded our entire department,
and the benefits agencies discovered what they'd been doing to evade the law....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:26 AM

But those who have more disposable income will, presumably, spend more. It's no use looking at a figure the VAT on the goods they buy (being identical to those bought by someone on a totally different income) as a percentage of their disposable income. As a percentage that figure is meaningless.
For goods which are liable to VAT, they can choose how much of their disposable income they spend, and for everyone buying standard rated goods at the standard rated VAT they are paying 20%.
Those with a higher disposable income will probably spend more than those with a lower disposable income, and that spend is more likely to be on goods which have VAT levied on them (basically 'luxuries'). The poor are more likely to direct their spending toward 'necessities'.

In the circumstances you quote, the percentages you choose are meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM

Gnome, refactor your model to reflect the reality of the situation with regard to benefits, allowances and taxes where 60% of the taxpayers take out more in benefits and allowances than they pay in tax. That is the situation in the UK at present. According to reports at the moment the break even threshold is £38,000 per year.

Income Tax represents a tiny fraction of HMRC revenue. The constant whine about taxing the rich leads ultimately to capital flight and you end up taking in less than you did before, the measure becomes self defeating.

By the way any time "fair" is mentioned, nobody ever states who decides what "fair" is.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:00 AM

Income Tax represents a tiny fraction of HMRC revenue

Is it really Teribus? According to this infographic Income tax and national insurannce made up 51% of government income with non direct taxes beeing 42% and business/other being 7%. Have you anything to challenge that?

I agree that it is difficult to get 'fair' quantified but 5% of the people owning 95% of the wealth does not seem to be very equitable does it?

Nigel - I am still not getting my point across am I? Regardless of who spends what, taxing everyone at the same rate as happens with VAT is, to my mind, not a good thing. You believe it is. I suspect we will never agree.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:08 AM

While there are still tories who believe the 'poor' don't deserve to own any luxuries, even TVs and mobile phones..... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM

Nigel - I am still not getting my point across am I? Regardless of who spends what, taxing everyone at the same rate as happens with VAT is, to my mind, not a good thing. You believe it is. I suspect we will never agree.
But you are advocating increasing income tax for the rich, to reduce VAT on fuel to 0% for everybody. Is that not taxing everyone at the same rate on that commodity?
Would it make a difference to your view if VAT on fuel was reduced to 0% (not an option I believe we have while remaining part of the EC) but an additional levy placed on the power firms, which they would pass on to the public in the form of higher prices all around.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:19 AM

Just had a thought - Maybe 'fair' should be that everyone has enough to live rather than just survive? Works for me.

Second thought while I was typing - No need to refactor anything but I will rephrase. If someone with £10 has to buy an item for £1.20 and 20p of that is VAT then they have used 2% of their money on VAT. If someone with £100 buys the same item they have only used 0.2% of theirs. The poorer person has paid 2% in tax while the richer one has only paid 0.2%. It would be much fairer to remove this inequality and simply apply income tax more evenly. I am lucky enough to be well over the mentioned threshold (but well under the one where my allowances reduce I must add!) and I would happily pay an extra 5% on my higher earnings. Maybe others think differently and that is why we constantly get reduction of taxes for the rich and austerity for the poor.

Sigh...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:22 AM

If the tax rate on fuel was 0% it's not really being taxed is it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:07 AM

Second thought while I was typing - No need to refactor anything but I will rephrase. If someone with £10 has to buy an item for £1.20 and 20p of that is VAT then they have used 2% of their money on VAT. If someone with £100 buys the same item they have only used 0.2% of theirs. The poorer person has paid 2% in tax while the richer one has only paid 0.2%. It would be much fairer to remove this inequality This is NOT a tax inequality. The percentage relates to the cost of the item bought and is 20% of the net price.
The person with the higher income can buy many more of these items than the person on the lower income, but the total number bought will be in relation to their available funds. No matter how many of these items are bought the tax rate (VAT) on them is still going to be 20%.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:24 AM

If the tax rate on fuel was 0% it's not really being taxed is it.
For VAT purposes 0% is considered a rate of VAT. This distinguishes between 'Zero-rated' and 'Exempt' supplies.

And, if we're thinking of motor fuel, it is already liable to 'fuel duty', which, to most people, is just another form of tax.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:33 AM

NIC is paid by both employer and employee and the Treasury has a larger number of income streams than are shown in your infographic.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:59 PM

I am interested in what those extra streams are that make you think that income tax is a 'tiny fraction' of HMRC revenue, Teribus. Can you elaborate?

Nigel. I know what I am on about. You cannot see it. No point continuing.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 01:44 PM

"The constant whine about taxing the rich leads ultimately to capital flight and you end up taking in less than you did before, the measure becomes self defeating."

So the rich are holding us to ransom then. Now where have I heard that before...🤔


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 07:45 PM

What would be the problem with abolishing VAT entirely, and relying on increased income tax to replace it?
...................

As for the suggestion that the only reason anyone would want a more responsiblt job is because of getting much higher payment, that just isn't how a lot of people work. Having more say over what goes on, and knowing you can make a difference is rewarding in itself. In any unpaid activity there is no problem in finding people who are eager to take a leading role.   

Determining which of a number of candidates is best equipped for a leading role is nothing to do with who wants the most money.    There is no reason to assume that by reducing the money you would be particularly likely to eliminate the people who are best equipped to do the job.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:04 PM

There wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for those right-wing ideologues who are so desperate to see income tax reduced. You could say the same about council tax, which is just a blunt instrument for increasing the tax take whilst pretending that you're keeping income tax low. Oh yes, council tax, in theory, allows the victim to explore local accountability, but who really cares? The bottom line is how much the government takes off us in overall taxes. That will change hardly at all, but oh, how easily people are taken in...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:35 PM

When I pay my taxes that is to enable public services which I value to have the resources they need, and indeed, to exist at all. Those services are my social wage, which has probably been the most important part of my overall wage.

Talking about governments "how much the government takes off us in taxation" is to stand the true reality on its head. Abolish taxation and most of us would be in poverty. I'd be dead, for a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:55 AM

"Taxes are what we pay for civilized society."

            - Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 01:19 PM

I wasn't railing against tax. Far from it. Just trying to show how we can be hoodwinked.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 02:36 PM

Taxes should be based on cock length...

Most of the worst [if not all] tories are egocentric deluded braggards
so will be bound to lie and exagerate on the self assessment forms...

Hence shifting the tax burden away from those poorest & least able to afford it... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:21 PM

Or a graduated land tax. You can't hide the land or put it offshore. Land ownership is at the root of power, yet no-one made the land.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 07:42 PM

So women wouldn't pay taxes, punk. Might be a little controversial.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 07:58 PM

Dunno, Kevin. These things are more flexible these days.


Ah, Jeez...😳


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 08:25 PM

Well.. I admit there are areas of my taxation plan that may require a closer look at
and more of a hands on approach to get a better feel of the essentials.... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 11:27 AM

"Or a graduated land tax. You can't hide the land or put it offshore. Land ownership is at the root of power, yet no-one made the land."

Aha, EP Thompson had something to say about that I think!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 01:42 PM

I think few would fault taxation if based purely on ability to pay.
Sadly this is not the case. The wealthy can avail themselves of any number of legal procedures to reduce their tax liability. Those on average or low incomes have no such opportunities. Also council tax is not based on ability to pay, it is based upon the value of the property that one resides in. This is even more unfair than the hated poll tax.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 04:18 PM

I don't believe that it would not be possible to get rid of the loopholes, and criminalise attempts to find new ones, if the will was there.

I'd trust a government led by Jeremy Corbyn to have the will to do that. I'd guarantee that a government led by Theresa May will ensure that plenty of loopholes remain available, and more were opened up to make up for any that were closed, for cosmetic reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:36 AM

We need our own breed of English penguins.

Real Emperor Penguins - the size of real Emporers.

Significantly - none of the parties have mentioned it as being in their manifesto


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:47 AM

Well, UKIP have just pledged to ban the burka so I can't see them agreeing to the penguin demand. They look too menacing in their black suits. If they could be forced to wear t-shirts stretched over their beer bellies, SS tattoos and union jack shorts you may be on a winner.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:58 AM

Hi

Only 2 certain things in life are death & taxes.

cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 07:51 AM

So Dave should we take it from your underhanded attempt to make an association with a ban on burkas to the SS that you will not be visiting France, Belgium or the Netherlands any time soon?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 08:55 AM

As I read Dave's post, the association was UKIP with the SS, not a ban on burkas with the SS.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:07 AM

To be honest it was much more a dig at the type of Brit who chooses to sport SS tattoos, wear Union Jack shorts and support UKIP than anything else. Not that there is anyone like that on here of course...

But, if truth be known, I could not really give a shit about how poobad chooses to misinterpret my post. It is pretty par for the course.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:33 AM

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:37 AM

Doesn't seem to be able to speak English either but, again, no real surprise there.

Wibble, wibble, wibble?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:59 AM

"ban on burkas to the SS that you will not be visiting France"
If yesterday's election results are anything to go by, France is rapidly heading for my list of no-go areas alongside Turkey and Israel or any State that adopts an officially racist policy
Wonder if Bobad, who constantly screams at "lefties" cares to comment on the possible election of rightist Marine LePen to the post of President
So far, he has declined to respond to Trump's appointment of an antisemite to his inner-circle, or promotion of one of the most hated racist and antisemitic broadcasters, on American television, ANNE COULTER by one of his mates on this forum.
It seems antisemitism is ok with some people as long as it doesn't frighten the Israeli horses
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 11:40 AM

Didn't you bother to read your own link Jim.....Ann Coulter is pro Israel and refreshingly outspoken.......I think the Palestinian problem is hugely complicated. Most of the complications seem to have been set up by the corrupt Palestinian leadership who have no wish to see a settlement of the issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 12:22 PM

They certainly don't want to see any more settlements. I'm with them on that.

Marine Le Penne vs Emmanuel Macaroni, eh? Is this a first-pasta-the-post election?



I'll get me coat...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 12:44 PM

"Didn't you bother to read your own link Jim.....Ann Coulter is pro Israel and refreshingly outspoken..."
I did indeed, and I make a point of not believing all I read - I judge her on what she says, not what others say about her
Your refusal to respond to challenges of what she says in a pretty clar indication that you should do the same
Anne Coulter is a racist, fascist bigot - David Duke praised her as being as near to his own views as you could get.
I have long given up expecting an honest response from you but thanks for another excuse to put up yet more of your heroine's BON MOTS   
Can I borrow your copy of Mein Kampf sometime?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 01:24 PM

No reason to assume someone isn't antisemitic because they are pro-Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 01:40 PM

Ann Coulter - a refreshing breeze - coming directly from the outhouse. The bogs. The loo. Capiche?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 01:59 PM

Ann Coulter is pro Israel and refreshingly outspoken

Ann Coulter is an ignorant, loud-mouthed bigoted piece of dirt and a waste of space on the surface of the planet.

You surely have a strange choice of heroes/heroines, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 04:57 PM

I think she's VERY funny...and cuts like a knife!

You "liberals" sure don't like to hear what's going on in the real world   :0)

It's happening all around you and you still live in a time warp somewhere between the sixties and the nineties.

I was watching a piece on TV this afternoon, apparently Bernie is the most popular politician in the US......and he's out on the stump drumming up support for the Democrats.....:0)
The bastards tried to do him in during the election, he rolled over and now tries to promote them to American youth.

Give me fuckin' strength.....how dim are US "liberals"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 05:42 PM

trust Dave to imply penguins are closet racists


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:14 PM

what's going on in the real world

That's "the real world of alternative facts", yes?

And Tailgunner Joe McCarthy was a real laugh riot, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:43 PM

Time to drop it, Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 08:17 PM

The enemy of my enemies is not my friend. I think aken has slipped up on that one. "Liberals" can be foolish, but fascists are poison


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:57 PM

the election is a two horse race. probably one, if truth be told.

i thought the penguins were a pleasant distraction. obviously not distracting enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 02:44 AM

I Agree Mr McGrath, but "liberals" can also be fascists?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 03:09 AM

"I Agree Mr McGrath, but "liberals" can also be fascists?"
Utter nonsense - the terms are contradictory
Your use of the dictionary is agenda driven.
Definition
"liberal
ˈlɪb(ə)r(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
"liberal views towards divorce"
2.
(of education) concerned with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.
"the provision of liberal adult education"
synonyms:        wide-ranging, broad-based, general, humanistic
"the provision of liberal adult education"
noun
1.
a person of liberal views.
"a concern among liberals about the relation of the citizen to the state""

Fascism
ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms:        authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy, absolute rule, Nazism, rightism, militarism; More
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.
"this is yet another example of health fascism in action"

You have ben asked to define this ridiculous statement in the past - you refuse and will continue to do so

It is totally the invention of extreme right wingers like Anne Coulter and yourself
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 05:28 AM

trust Dave to imply penguins are closet racists

On which planet did that happen?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 07:19 AM

'They look too menacing in their black suits. If they could be forced to wear t-shirts stretched over their beer bellies, SS tattoos and union jack shorts you may be on a winner.'

you virtually accused penguins of goose stepping!
as if an English penguin would that ill bred...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 07:27 AM

A classic book I read when I was young - 'Penguin Island' by Anatole France
Always meant to look for it again and see if I enjoy it as much as I did
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 07:28 AM

There's the penguin that owned a bank ................


The Northern Rock ...Hopper


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 07:37 AM

Well Jim, one common example of "liberal fascism" is to categorise anyone who questions the policy of allowing unregulated immigration into one's country as "racism".

You have a whole portfolio of such categorisations which you aim at anyone who dares to contradict your views, or the views of the "liberal" media.

Sometime it does people like you good to be reminded that there are millions, socialist and conservative, who will not accept unreasonable bullshit......because it is deemed politically correct by corrupt politicians or a slavish immoral media.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 07:59 AM

I thought bread made birds ill anyway. Why does it matter if they are English?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 08:07 AM

I might be inadvertently veering too much for comfort towards UKIP thinking..

But somehow I imagine a defensive line of English Penguins guarding the south east coast against foreign invasion..

Like Dad's Army... 😎


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 08:36 AM

when we have a british penguin we can re-design it along more sensible lines. they need to be bigger...possibly 6ft tall. more versatile in their diet. and good conversationalists. probably labour voters...but not heavy drinkers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 09:51 AM

With wheels


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 10:11 AM

I think we're getting into the realms of fantasy there Raggytash...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 10:13 AM

And stabilisers, to stop us going off the rails!


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