BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?

Subject: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:40 PM

I just can't help thinking that Houston is a bloody stupid place to build a huge city!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:47 PM

A problem shared by all cities in Oceania. A big flat area that offers port facilities and an easy build development of infrastructure attracts investment like moths to a flame.(until the insurance premiums or death tolls dictate otherwise)

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 04:24 PM

In the U.S., the places that don't have hurricanes, don't have seaports. And they have tornadoes, and earthquakes, and forest fires.

And rattlesnakes, and bears, and mountain lions. And Trump.

Good reasons why Europeans should never have moved to the Americas....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: leeneia
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:05 PM

Paths? Hurricanes don't follow paths.

Take a map of the lower 48 states. Trace your finger all the way across the Gulf of Mexico, all the way around Florida and up the east coast to about New York City. That's the area where a hurricane (or a related tropical storm such as Superstorm Sandy) can come ashore.

I just finished a mystery story set in Quebec, and the people in Quebec were worried about a storm which was the aftermath of a hurricane.

A month ago, I visited Maine, and a gray-haired guide pointed to a fine home right on the shore and said, "The next hurricane will take care of that one."

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:58 PM

I wonder how many thousand idiots live around the foot of Vesuvius in Italy!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:01 PM

We had a hurricane in the UK in 1987.The BBC weatherman said it was only a rumour - He was wrong. It was quite a wild night in the north sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:26 PM

The question should not (just) be why build cities in the path of hurricanes - as wisely pointed out by several on this site - there are cities in the path of hurricanes, firestorms, earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, etc. Not to mention cities and countries being threaded by rising oceans, droughts and other dangers of climate change. The question is - what do we do now? How do we fortify these vulnerable areas; bring help to those affected and most importantly (imho-) can this be the wake up call to switch to solar, wind, water and other nations on hazardous forms of supplying energy to the expanding populations of this still. Beautiful planet? The technology is there but the will must appear - the earth and our future generations await our response.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:53 PM

What we had in 1987 (and I couldn't get to work on tbe morning of 16 October because of fallen trees) was not a hurricane. It was a particularly energetic Atlantic depression which deepened explosively as it tracked into the western approaches. On that occasion there was a particularly marked temperature contrast between tropical-maritime air and polar-maritime air either side of the polar front, exacerbated by the still-warm North Atlantic. Hurricanes are tropical systems which are not allied with the earth's major frontal zones, unlike Atlantic lows which rely on the contrasts in temperature, humidity and vertical profiles between two airmasses either side of the polar front. Hurricanes derive their energy largely from very warm oceans in late summer. The problem with Harvey is that a huge blocking high over continental North America caused the storm system to stall over an area where it could continue to draw massive amounts of energy from the very warm Gulf of Mexico. That led to incessant rainfall which wasn't on the move, unlike what happens with most tropical storm systems in the Gulf of Mexico, which tend to track inland and weaken as they are more and more cut off from their source of energy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:15 PM

I know the area around the foot of Vesuvio very well. Naples and its suburbs have a population of almost three million. The whole Bay of Naples area has an amazing climate, fertile soil and good harbours. The climate is ideal for the production of wine and olives and the best pasta on the planet is made in Gragnano. The Bay is a haven for tourists and is cultural heaven, from Sorrento (a beautiful place) right along to the towns in the Campi Flegrei, the fiery fields, on the far side of Naples. In the bay you have the utterly beautiful islands of Capri and Ischia. I can't tell you about just one reason why so many people live there, but I can tell you that the coast and the bay between Sorrento and Pozzuoli, taking in Vesuvio, Pompei, Herculaneum and Stabiae, is, to me, the seat of humanity and the centre of human culture. OK, so there's a risk of being buried by lava. In fact, the risk to Naples is minimal, earthquakes being a far greater threat. There is a massive evacuation plan in place for the whole area in the unlikely event of Vesuvio causing trouble. True, a big eruption would take a good number of people out. But the area is so beautiful...

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:19 PM

BBC forecast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnxjZ-aFkjs

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:05 PM

One of the best answers to this type of question came from Turkey a few years back.

After an exhaustive briefing to the Turkish Congress on the looming disasters due to an active earthquake fault, the Congress adjourned for two hours.

When they returned a vote was taken to move the seismic fault and it passed 2-1.




Folks are nust jot as thart as they smink they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:31 PM

"Hurricanes are tropical systems which are not allied with the earth's major frontal zones, unlike Atlantic lows which rely on the contrasts in temperature, humidity and vertical profiles between two airmasses either side of the polar front."


Shaw if you wish to make corrections please get it right.A tropical cyclone is a rapidly rotating storm system characterized by a low-pressure center, a closed low-level atmospheric circulation, strong winds, and a spiral arrangement of thunderstorms that produce heavy rain. Depending on its location and strength, a tropical cyclone is referred to by names such as hurricane typhoon , tropical storm, cyclonic storm, tropical depression, and simply cyclone. A hurricane is a storm that occurs in the Atlantic Ocean and northeastern Pacific Ocean, a typhoon occurs in the northwestern Pacific Ocean, and a cyclone occurs in the south Pacific or Indian Ocean.

In terms of popular terminology the 1987 storm was frequently referred to as the Hurricane that was not going to happen. In terms of windspeed achieved it was a hurricane on the Beaufort scale(storm force 12)
i.e.Hurricane Force (Force 12) is defined as a wind of 64 knots or
more, sustained over a period of at least 10 minutes. Gusts, which are comparatively short-lived (but cause a lot of destruction) are not taken into account. By this definition, Hurricane Force winds occurred locally but were not widespread.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:36 PM

Iains, I wish you were our weatherman.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:57 PM

I got it entirely right. The word hurricane is a technical meteorological term for a non- frontal tropical storm of particular intensity and may not be used for any storm, no matter how fierce, that is an extra-tropical, frontal depression, which covers every low-pressure cyclonic event we ever get in the UK. Do feel free to shower us with irrelevant bullshit designed to cover up your inadequate scientific knowledge, but anyone reading this (poor sods) can very easily look up the meaning of terms on wiki or anywhere else they choose. You do crow somewhat about your scientific credentials and your long-standing science consultancy work. I'm getting a bit worried about your clients, though who am I to judge? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 02:49 AM

Last Autumn, I drove along U.S. Highway 90 and 98 along the Gulf Coast from New Orleans to Apalachicola (Florida), and then the highways inland down to Sarasota, because there was no coast road. Hurricane Katrina hit that route in August, 2005; but the damage was evident 11 years later - especially in Biloxi, Mississippi. For much of the Mississippi portion of my trip, the north side U.S. 90 was lined with huge, beautiful, old houses. The south side of the highway was a white sand beach, and then the Gulf went on to the horizon. The place was a wonderland for birds, especially pelicans and gulls, and the fishing industry is still busy. Biloxi and Pascagoula have moved lighthouses from vulnerable locations to spots alongside the highway, making U.S. 90 even prettier. The Jefferson Davis home is on U.S. 90 in Biloxi, a beautiful (if controversial) place to visit. I just loved the three days I spent on that drive, and wish I could have spent a week there. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever visited. So yeah, I can see why people want to live in a place like that, even with hurricanes - and they have lived there since the first half of the 19th century.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:04 AM

Yes I agree with you Steve, I would love to revisit the Naples/Amalfi area but unfortunately my wife's mobility is no longer up to it. Still, we have the memories!

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:33 AM

Joe Offer - 31 Aug 17 - 04:24 PM

"Good reasons why Europeans should never have moved to the Americas...."

And that would have left you where Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:36 AM

I probably wouldn't be here, Teribus. There appear to be hidden Jewish ancestors on both sides of my family, so my parents would have died in the camps. Guess I'll take the hurricanes, and tornadoes, and earthquakes. The forest fires are the disasters that are the biggest threat to me here in the California Sierra foothills, but I'll take them, too. I'll enjoy our eighty-mile view and our glorious sunsets until the house burns down.
I'll continue to be guided by my patron saint, Mad Magazine's Alfred E. Neuman (What? Me worry?)

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:24 AM

Now, apart from location would anyone other than Wiki care to tell the difference between a Typhoon and a Hurricane?

<QUOTE>A typhoon differs from a cyclone or hurricane only on the basis of location</QUOTE>.

Hurricane is defined by a threshold. Below that it gets called a storm - but real life ain't binary, it is the combined human understanding that struggles with analogue measurements. And we are not currently in a society that likes maybes, percentages, minutia, unless it is a fashion like clothes or music. Science defines a threshold because of human frailty (and houses, infrastructure etc). A continuum is a more apt viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:26 AM

What we had in 1987 (and I couldn't get to work on tbe morning of 16 October because of fallen trees) was not a hurricane.

We had hurricane force winds. The experience was the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 06:29 AM

Humans are intrinsically stupid when it comes to ignoring natural hazards when building. We build on floodplains, unstable landslips, low-lying deltas etc etc. There are good reasons why people want to live in these areas, especially for the exploitation of natural resources so it's not a ridiculous idea.

Anyhow, due to our plague-like numbers these days we don't have a lot of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:07 AM

"We had hurricane force winds. The experience was the same"

I'm not sure what you experienced over there in '87 but take it from a guy in Florida who's lived thru several hurricanes that the occasional gust that reaches 74-95 MPH has nowhere near the destructive power of maximum sustained winds of 74-95 MPH (a category one hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson scale).

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:58 AM

Prior to 1900, the big city on Galveston Bay was Galveston itself, not Houston. The diastrous Galveston hurricane of 1900 prompted many businesses to relocate further inland to Houston. Houston is actually far enough inland to be protected from the most severe winds of hurricanes. Most of the damage Houston has experienced from storms over the years has been from flooding, not winds. Much of the flooding could have been prevented with more thoughtful planning.

So, the question shouldn't be "Why build cities in path of hurricanes?" but "Why build cities in path of hurricanes so poorly?"

Neither Katrina nor Harvey were huge natural disasters. They were ordinary scale natural disasters hugely exacerbated by human planning and engineering failures.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 08:20 AM

"Now, apart from location would anyone other than Wiki care to tell the difference between a Typhoon and a Hurricane?"
Probably those people in the track of a typhoon would say the same about a hurricane.
As said previously regional names for the same kind of storm system reaching a certain intensity.
Interesting how the concept has developed over time as mariners became more adventurous and ideas in meteorology developed.
Centuries ago, the Spanish used huracan, an indigenous word for evil spirits and weather gods, to name the storms that sank their ships in the Caribbean
Origin and Etymology of hurricane.Spanish huracán, from Taino hurakán
First Known Use: 1555

Origin and Etymology of typhoon.alteration (influenced by Chinese— Guangdong — daaih-fùng, from daaih big + fùng wind) of earlier touffon, from Arabic ṭūfān hurricane, from Greek typhōn violent storm
First Known Use: 1771

Origin and Etymology of cyclone.modification of Greek kyklōma wheel, coil, from kykloun to go around, from kyklos circle
First Known Use: 1848

Apologies to those getting bored, I find the origin of words interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 09:26 AM

The October 1987 storm had sustained winds exceeding 74 mph in southeast England for more than one hour. The Beaufort scale refers to sustained wind speeds only, not to gusts, which can generally approach about one and a half times the sustained wind speed in Atlantic depressions. Force 12 on the Beaufort scale requires sustained average wind speeds of over 73mph, traditionally for an hour, though that aspect, along with other aspects of the Beaufort scale, is a bit of a moveable feast. It's intended to be useful in practice rather than too definitive. To be useful, a gale warning needs to refer to potential violent gusts (e.g., "occasionally violent storm 11") as well as sustained wind speeds. In that regard, the1987 storm produced hurricane-force winds over limited areas. Sustained winds of force 12 are the minimum requirement for a tropical storm to be called a hurricane and that equates to a Category 1 hurricane. Real hurricanes are not any old storm with hurricane-force winds. Real hurricanes are born in the tropics only and are closed systems not associated with major frontal areas. They derive their energy in a very different way from Atlantic depressions. Another difference is that hurricanes usually have organised thunderstorm systems and produce much more rainfall in a very short time than frontal depressions. So it's incorrect to say that we had a hurricane in 1987, but fine to say we had hurricane-force winds. Especially if you're a scientist.   Anyone reading this in Texas must be wondering how come we made such a fuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 09:39 AM

Irma is on her way.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 10:04 AM

It's 4 centuries since the devastating Bristol channel flood event, recently plausibly attributed to a tsunami caused by a fault line shift out in the near ocean...

If we are due a repeat sooner or later, they didn't have Hinkley Point and Avonmouth back in the 1600s....

Predictable catastrophic environmental consequences will be much worse than a dead cow rotting high up in a tree in Weston-in-Gordano... 😟

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 10:28 AM

Steve it all boils down to semantics.
Read, assimilate and digest.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/guide/weather/marine/beaufort-scale
I think I will let the met office make the definitive statement about what constitutes a hurricane, or does a biologist know better?

Note the beaufort scale is EMPIRICAL. Force 12 greater than 64knots = hurricane and based on a sea state

Easier to use instrumentation that is both accurate and capable of accurate calibration, doncha think?

So a hurricane can be a)a sustained wind speed greater than 64knots
                      b)A storm system(tropical cyclone) that occurs                                                                                                                  
                        in the Atlantic Ocean and northeastern Pacific
                        Ocean,
Now is there the slightest chance that the above will make you happy, and the thread can revert to sanity, my nit picky little friend?

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 10:56 AM

I stopped dropping into Gordano Services for that very reason, pfr. It wasn't just the speed bumps and that shitty roundabout. Far more importantly, the pork pies at Gloucester Services are much better... that flood event was my first thought when I heard about the new reactor at Hinkley.

That doesn't say anything that I didn't, Iains, nor does it contradict me in any way. As a matter of fact it's what I used to check my facts before posting (I recommend the approach: your science consultancy clients would appreciate your being a bit more genned up than you usually are). I told you that the Beaufort scale is a moveable feast and is designed to be useful rather than theoretical. That means there are elements of it that lend themselves to a more subjective approach. Happy to clear that up for you. And, no matter how many aspects of hurricanes you wish to list for us, there's a bottom line: a hurricane is not the same thing at all as an Atlantic frontal depression. Here in Blighty we can have hurricane-force winds but we can never have hurricanes. I've just dipped my toes into the sea at Widemouth Bay, this being the warmest time of the year for sea temperatures, and whaddya know: nowhere near warm enough to spawn a hurricane...brrr.

It boils down to accuracy, Iains, by the way. As you're a scientist just like me, we both know that there's no room for sloppiness. So firm up, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM

"As you're a scientist just like me" - Thanks for that "Scientist" Shaw - best laugh I've had all week.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 02:12 PM

Just as well I do not claim to be a meteorologist then!!!!
I suspect stevie boy that if I adopted you and your approach as a role model and a modus operandi then I would have spent the vast bulk of my time unemployed. I cannot envisage you being a subservient team player, as is required at times in the real world. I think your career as a consultant would be shortlived if your persona displayed on this forum in any way approaches your behaviour in the real world, for reasons that must be apparent even to you.
Of course I could be totally wrong, but experience in many companies suggests otherwise.

Punkfolkrocker: A pretty comprehensive summary below of the Great storm
in the Bristol Channel. To me a storm surge seems most likely, but both sides of the argument are presented.

http://www.volcanocafe.org/the-bristol-tsunami-of-1607/
Having spent several months right beside Hinkley it does seem rather vulnerable,   but that was 25 years ago so it may have been hardened since.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:10 PM

Maybe the radiation got to you and addled your brain. There is evidence of such addling here.

I always wanted to be a meteorologist, but, alas, my maths was competent but not good enough. But I've taken the house journal of the Royal Meteorological Society for decades (not cheap!) and meteorology is my numero uno hobby. Still, that doesn't qualify me for anything, for sure. But I know that I know what I'm talking about. It takes work and a bit of dedication to bone up on a subject and to stay boned up. But there you go. You and Teribus are dedicated subscribers to the University Of The Philistine. The main course module is How To Be Jealous. I can't help that. Your problem. Now, back to hurricanes. Real ones! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:24 PM

There are some new factors regarding some unanticipated phenomena we call Climate Change.

1 The slowing of the Jet Stream. As the polar region remains significantly warmer the temperature gradient is less sudden and energetic.

2 A wandering Polar Vortex. This is related to #1 and proves deadly bringing extreme cold to lower latitudes in the winter.

3 Acceleration of the worst effects of Climate change from the introduction of more methane from natural tundra and man made fracking.

4 Shit happens beyond our investigation, measurements and insight.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:37 PM

These factors are simply obvious to me and not borrowed information or a cut and paste job. I can tell when the sun is shining without a degree. So can Steve. We just won't get a Grant.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:42 PM

Your last point is the most persuasive. It's possible to make all sorts of predictions using models, etc., all valuable. But there is too much that we just don't know. Mucho shit will happen. Probably already is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM

Now this is a REAL Mudcat thread. The OP is brilliant! Hopefully, songs will come from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: mg
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:59 PM

i can understand building in the path of hurricanes, tornados, etc..when you take all the risks out there is no place left...but what i can not understand is rebuilding after a disaster with cardboard and design that is just not strong. Better to have a building of cement that is plain and substantial, with a good tornado shelter, that is fireproof, mold fixable, water proof in the shell at least, hurricane and tornado strong..can be reinforced for earthquakes..look at the pictures after tornadoes..sticks everywhere...look at the pictures of very poor places..rocks everywhere. here is a plan. buy their rocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 06:42 PM

Because that's where the money is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 10:06 PM

Due to government regulation, most U.S. communities ARE much safer when they rebuild after a hurricane. Instead of trying to build rock-solid, homes must be on stilts, with the ground area used for parking or storage. If there are walls on the ground level, they must be built so they break away if a storm surge comes through, so the surge cannot knock over the whole building. The home-on-stilts idea also improves the occupant's view.

We visited friends in Fairhaven, Massachusetts. They're on a point of land across from New Bedford Harbor, in a beautiful location that's very vulnerable to storms. It's amazing to see how all the houses in the neighborhood are built to withstand storms.

Same goes for homes here along the Sacramento River in my area. They're beautiful homes with beautiful views - all built on stilts.

They're doing more to help new homes survive forest fires, but I don't think they've reached a really safe level of design yet.

Tornadoes? Well, it helps to have a storm cellar. It's now required for mobile homes to be anchored to the ground, but mobile home parks still get hit hard by tornadoes - and houses don't survive much better. On my trip last Autumn, I also went to Joplin, Missouri, a fair-sized city that was hit hard by a huge tornado in 2011. They were still working hard on recovery in 2016.

And tornado locations are so unpredictable, that people just take their chances.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 03:51 AM

Just to drive everyone totally insane.
Oxford English Dictionary definition of you know what.

A storm with a violent wind, in particular a tropical cyclone in the Caribbean.

A wind of force 12 on the Beaufort scale (equal to or exceeding 64 knots or 118 km/h).

A single-seat, single-engined British fighter aircraft of the Second World War, produced by the Hawker company and remembered in particular for its role in the Battle of Britain along with the Spitfire.

Now a meteorologist may have a more precise meaning for certain words, but in general usage words have a much less precise and wider meaning, as exemplified by the argument/discussion about theory recently.
I turn the forum over to our resident "guru" who no doubt will find fault with the dictionary defintions.

Joe. A future proof house?

https://www.dezeen.com/2014/10/15/baca-architects-amphibious-house-floating-floodwater/

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 05:57 AM

The storm with violent wind must be a closed-system tropical storm, otherwise it can't technically be called a hurricane.

A wind of force 12 isn't a hurricane. It IS a hurricane-force wind. A hurricane is a tropical storm system with a particular three-dimensional structure, organised thunderstorms, heavy rain....and winds of at least force 12.

You're supposed to be a scientist, yet here you are arguing in favour of lack of precision in a pretty simple matter. I'm fine with people using terms informally in order to communicate ideas. But we are focusing here, for better or worse, on the proper use of the term. As such, as a scientist you should be encouraging accuracy. Not demanding it, but encouraging it, and certainly not arguing against it. You do appear to have penchant for indulging in the cult of the philistine.   

And argument from authority, aka appeal to authority, is a well-known logical fallacy. As meteorology has been my passion since my age was in single figures, and I'm now an old age pensioner, it's a fair bet (not a dead cert - Humility is my middle name) that I know more about tropical storms, etc., than the average dictionary compiler. Your fallacy is that you set out to choose "authoritative" sources that suit your predetermined point of view. It's a lamentably common phenomenon on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:14 AM

Interesting things, dictionaries. Over the years I've learned a lot by subscribing to Merriam-Webster's Word Of The Day. Here's something I've just found on their website under "hurricane" (to be fair, it's one among several definitions, but this does stand alone):


Definition of hurricane for English Language Learners:

an extremely large, powerful, and destructive storm with very strong winds that occurs especially in the western part of the Atlantic Ocean

No mention of tropical, no mention of cyclonicity, no definition of wind speed, terribly vague geographical reference, and as, when compared to extra-tropical depressions, hurricanes are relatively pretty small in area, a very misleading reference to size. Ho hum. Dictionaries are not bibles. Neither is the Bible a bible, come to think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:17 AM

You may be a little genius about the whys and wherefores of tropical storms but you seem to have a mental block with a simple dictionary.
How sad!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:22 AM

As a matter of fact, I'm an inveterate user of dictionaries. I'll let my use of English in my posts to this forum stand testament to that. It's just that, as a well-educated scientist, I tend to question everything and take nothing at face value, and I don't care much for authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:23 AM

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Do you want to be Humdy Dumpdy or Alice? Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:38 AM

"As a matter of fact, I'm an inveterate user of dictionaries. I'll let my use of English in my posts to this forum stand testament to that. It's just that, as a well-educated scientist, I tend to question everything and take nothing at face value, and I don't care much for authority."

So why do you use a foreign dictionary to justify your position?
Very weak Shaw, very weak. as a well educated scientist you must do better!

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 07:31 AM

To justify what position?

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 07:55 AM

Sorry your little comedy is boring me. Would you like to discuss how many angels fit on a pin?

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 08:13 AM

India, Bangladesh and Nepal are saying Houston we also have a problem.
For some reason floods in SE Asia are not making headlines, although the death toll is very high. 1200 dead and 41 million flooded.


https://www.ecowatch.com/flooding-asia-bangladesh-2479927370.html

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 08:38 AM

A BBC news manager tried to explain this obvious discrepancy in answer to views complaints yesterday.
The justification being more of travel costs, news feed logistics, and convenience rather than ideological bias...

which seems fair enough....???

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 08:44 AM

PFR. A likely story! Be interesting to see how the media treat Irma,
that is still developing and nowhere near landfall yet. The hype has already started. But to be fair it has the potential to be horrendous.


http://grist.org/article/hurricane-irma-is-a-monster-storm-heres-where-it-might-be-headed/

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

(1) Before mass air freight, cities needed to be built near the sea for commerce.
(2) In the case of USA, before building the Panama Canal, the East (Hurricane) coast was settled first as the West Coast - until the American interior was crossed by the rail network - could only be reach (from Europe)by rounding Cape Horn or Cape of Good Hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 09:08 AM

Well, Iains, you do seem to rely an awful lot on the media for your chosen links. Don't you trust them any more? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 09:18 AM

Shaw I refer you to my post of 02 Sep 17 - 07:55 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 07:17 PM

Steve's the name, though please yourself. Why are you called Iains? Are there more than of you? I bloody hope not.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 03:49 PM

Must be time for your unique insights/onslaughts on Hurricane Irma as you are a "well-educated scientist, that tends to question everything and takes nothing at face value"
   We await your prognostications with baited breath! As you apparently have little faith in the media do you get your updates from a Ouija board?

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM

"baited breath!"
Been into the worm can again?

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 04:53 PM

Haha, you beat me to it. It's those dictionaries of his, you know. 😂

Nothing quite like the cult of the philistine...

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 06:20 PM

gillymor. Merely fishing for more of Shaw's "erudition" and shining wit.
He had gone unusually quiet for a while. Most out of character.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 06:50 PM

Wow. do get a life, Inanes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM

Let's change the subject.

Yesterday I saw some okra for sale at a farm stand, so I bought it and made my own Midwestern Jambalaya in honor of the Cajun Navy. I call it Midwestern because I don't bother with a roux and I leave out the hot sauce.

If you don't know what the Cajun Navy is, visit YouTube. It will be a new view of Americans.

Oh, and I changed the recipe by waiting to add the lemon until a few minutes before serving. (Zest an entire lemon, remove and discard the pith, slice the flesh thinly and stir flesh and zest into the batch.) The original recipe said to put the lemon in at the beginning, but I find that this cooks it to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 17 - 07:01 PM

There's nothing better or more rebellious than refusing to be a slave to a recipe. Sticking to a recipe is so abject! If a recipe calls for lemon zest, it simply has to go in at the end, as with my mackerel pâté or prawns with spaghetti, rocket, chilli and lemon.

I am worrying about Irma. I suppose there's no chance of it avoiding those little islands. I don't pray but I wish everyone in Irma's path well. I want to wake up in the morning hearing that Irma has been a damp squib. I know it isn't going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Sep 17 - 09:36 PM

I agree with you about Irma. The paper says it is now a Category 4 - a terrible and powerful storm.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 02:50 AM

i live on the edge of the lake district. it would be illogical for anyone who doesn't have a tolerance for frequent rain to live here, though occasionally that tolerance is stretched a bit. we have had 2 large (7 foot and 4 foot) floods and are still here. folk suggest we move and i would like to move up the hill, though it's not easy with property values etc. and though it is difficult and scary to live through these events - we are ok and supported by local services, good local trades people a strong community and crucially, insurance. we have rebuilt 2 'new' homes that are better than previuos. it's fairly easy to get to glasgow and edinburgh for family and music and football. when we see the scenes of floods and other disasters in asia particularly or, closer to home, the large blue political desert of some parts of middle england then we know we are very lucky.
we have also learned to live with the toxic, rotten eyesore that is sellafield. thousands of well paid, pointless sinecures, a price worth paying for us cumbrians who can't be bothered to protest much or find more interesting jobs elsewhere.
i'd say humans can and probably have to, want to, live with a degree of risk, discomfort. we have lived from the arctic to the desert for 1,000s of years. some scots even manage to live with midgies

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: leeneia
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 10:27 AM

Have you considered a home on stilts?

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 07:14 PM

Hi Pete.

Leeneia, there are few houses on stilts here and most people here wouldn't be able to build their own. Thay are a very good idea in flood-prone areas, I admit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 01:37 PM

Yes, stilts look like a good idea, but you've got to have a good foundation. I wouldn't do it without an engineer. Soils along a body of water are apt to be mere layers of sand, silt, clay or gravel, possibly saturated. If you don't know what you are doing, the building could settle.

I feel that it's best not to build too close to water in the first place, but clearly there are thousands of people who do not agree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Aug 21 - 12:23 PM

Here comes Hurricane/ Tropical Storm Henri,
and this storm has the sheer effrontery
to direct itself to some coastal cities
that rarely see tropical storms or hurricanes.

Some of us will remember Hurricane Sandy, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 09:12 AM

TIPPING POINTS ARE REAL !!!!?   who knew
Extinction Level Event? huh
All over a man claiming a big lie about an election!?
Sound familiar?
Just think how GEORGE BUSH having better lawyers than Al Gore before the Supream Court destroyed an entire garden of Eden.

The Looooaard Gawd and Political Over Lards ARE NOT TRYING TO KILL US ALL by telling the stupid to not take the vaccine. They are simply raising our surviving collective IQ in the long run. mebbe
While the Darwin Effect does work slowly, we -could- be one varient away from a HUGE reduction in population which will be benificial to Climate Change, but the irreversible chain of events will only slow a bit and will continue since 25% of the Northern Hemisphere is Permafrost. That permafrost has melted! and its getting hotter. The now rotting organic matter of carbon is being released by microbes.
Permafrost is not just a thin layer, it can be as deep as coal and is not refreezing in areas over the winter. It will not matter to our kids if this observation is ignored or critisized. Were not talking about great great grand children facing extreme heat anymore, this is going to be quicker beyond anything we can do. All we can do is buy time since the irreversible carbon release will exceed all oil deposit release, forest fires, and man made control of carbon release. Sorry guys game over but some will survive Fires all the time and endless floods and dozens of hurricanes. I know this guy Zuckerberg who has an island...
Jeeze I wish someone had said somthing about TIPPING POINTS early on.

Subject: RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 11:13 AM

Strange as it sounds tree growth is now booming ABOVE the artic circle which traps more heat and melts more permafrost. https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2016/11/16/where-trees-meet-tundra-decoding-signals-of-climate-change/

Trees are bad for climate in this case.
Temperatures recorded above the artic circle are as high as 100 F.
But facts be damned, eat drink and be merry.