Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?

Subject: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: Hasek
Date: 05 Jan 00 - 01:07 PM

Did any of you know William Kunstler , the lawyer and if so ,would you share your thoughts and stories.

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Jan 00 - 01:59 PM

I knew Bill for years, as many of you know from earlier posts. I had the great privalege of working on a case with in New London while he was working on his autobiography. As a result, we would have a three hour or so drive from NY to NL, while Bill reminiced about his involvement in the Spanish Civil War, the Chessman case, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Dylan Thomas, the Beatles, Iwo Jima, Attica, all mixed into a hopper colored with his remarkable sence of humor. There were times I had to pull the van over to the margin because we were all laughing so hard I could not drive. At such times Bill would typically anounce that - Young Larry has lost his mind, and could some one drive us to a hospital - at which time I would be afraid I would laugh so much I would not be able to catch my breath.
The day I graduated NYU law school I walked over to Bills office, so he could have a chuckle at effect of the Doctoral robes. Bill greeted me at the door, and shaking my hand with great deliberation said, - Well, my boy, let me welcome you into the profession of making your living off the missery of widdows and orphans. - For those who did not know, Bill did not charge for his legal work for the last many years of his life. He was kept afloat by donations and by his poetry,and would often describe himself as an amature lawyer and professional lawyer.
He once was found guilty of contempt of court, for saying that a judge was an encompetant. His defense was that, after a long life in law, it was not an insult to the judge, but a reasoned apprasal born of experience, fair comment. After that he never went into a court room without a tooth brush in his breast pocket, as he said it was the only thing he really missed while in jail for contempt.
In one case, after a day an a half of opening comment by the government, Bill rose with great deliberation and said, - My brother has spoken of many things. Now, let us discuss the case.
I learned of his death in the worst way. I was at diner at the home of a friend and saw, the TV on in another room, with a photograph of Bill in a black frame. Not a day has passed that I have not thought of him. A few day latter, I was apearing in a Native court in the U P of Michigan. I was defending a native mother against an attempt to out adopt her baby. I had spent two days on a bus to get to the reserve and slept on a floor for a week, then returning to New York, by bus, a young fellow accross the isle and I got into a conversation about the law, I began to tell him storries of Bill and his fight for the damned, and after awhile I noticed an elderly Black woman leaning forward, listening and smiling. She was the image of the people who would come up to Bill in Dinners or on the street and hug him and thank him for his work in the days when Kunstler Kunstler and Kenoy were called -The Peoples KKK.
His generation is passing and its like we will never see again.
Larry Otway

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: Paul G.
Date: 05 Jan 00 - 02:22 PM

I have one memory of Mr. Kunstler...when I was in high school in Bedford, New York...must have been 1969 or 70, a number of us organized a one-day walk out from classes for an anti-war rally at the Bedford Village Green. Somebody's father got Kunstler to speak to us (about 200 truants that day). The one thing that still stands out in my mind about his remarks was his urging us, now that we had taken the risk of walking out of school, to just stay out of school until the war in Vietnam was ended. We thought it was a great idea. And we all went back to school the next day.

In any event, I thought (and still think) it impressive that such an important figure of the day would take the time, for free, to address an unknown flock of high school kids.

pg

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: Hasek
Date: 05 Jan 00 - 03:26 PM

Dear Larry and Paul, I always envisioned Mr. Kunstler as such a MAN . Your stories have opened me to know that wonderful person inside. It's so wonderful how folk music ( The Mudcat ) brings out so much of our lives in these threads. Mike Strobel

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: Chet W.
Date: 05 Jan 00 - 04:22 PM

He had an amazing mind and did an awful lot of good, but I wish I had not seen an interview with him, done a short time before his death, in which he said that political assassination was sometimes appropriate. I'll bet that he wishes he had missed that one too.

Chet

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: ddw
Date: 05 Jan 00 - 08:52 PM

Chet,

So what's wrong with that? Wouldn't you consider that the assassination of Hitler would have been OK? I could name a lot of others that I wouldn't shed any tears over, but I'll just throw out the one I think most people can agree on just to make the point.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Jan 00 - 04:06 AM

Dear Larry.
I never heard of the man until you brought him up in that earlier thread.
It is great to hear of such courage, and I'm sure your life has been all the better for knowing him.
Every once in a while such a person comes along (unfortunately not often enough), and those whom he touch benefit beyond measure. I had such an uncle.
Thanks.
Breandán

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jan 00 - 09:59 AM

Breandan:
(Sorry to leave out the Fada - it does not work in this program) As folk music is about family tradition, why dont you start a thread about family members who inspired you, begining with your uncle, you piqued my curiosity! I will post the information for Bills autobiography, finished around the year he died. It is mostlikely easy to get from Amazon, in paperback. More than anything else,you realize that Bill was one of those who enguaged life and was not afraid to live, which is why he often faced death with such courage, not a thing many lawyers are called upon to do.
One example, which comes to mind, was the Attica prison uprising. Nelson Rockafeller, the Gov. of New York, was looking for an excuse to open fire on the prisoners. So he set up a staged incident, by sending a forged note from Bill and the other four negotiators in to the Prisoners, making it appear that Bill and the others had sold them out, so that they would kill the negotiators and the guards on the tower could have an excuse to open fire. The negotiators found out about it, as they were actually going into the prison yard. Bill told me that, even at Iwo Jima, he was never so sure of his impending death, but that he forced himself to walk over to the table where the prisoners negotiators were sitting. I believe it was a prisoner I latter met, and am very fond of, who latter became a paralegal, whose nick name is Big Black, who made an impationed speach saving Bill and the others. Later that day, the guards opened fire without provication, killing many, and they then beat and tortured many more. (This happened back in the 70s, and the State of New York was finally ordered this week to pay millions to the survivors.) But, it takes a special kind of love of life, love of the life that is the one you chose to live, to walk without pause, into almost certain death. That was Bill to the day he died. I have heard people called fearless advocats. Bill was the only one I ever met who was indeed, fearless in that particular way.
As to political assasination. I believe, as David does, that Bill was referring to instances where a nation is without law. I believe if many of us could have killed Franco or Hitler, we would, though, I would also add, that I believe it is necessary to exempt all political leaders from assasination in order to have hope of a civialized world. As unfair as this is, as the political leaders often order others to their death and to do the dirty work of killing, I can think of no other way to work towards an ordered process of change. There are some leaders in history, like the ones I mention, that I might, in the right cercumstances, damn myself against my own convictions for the good of humanity, in cases where there is an on going genocide, however, even as I write this, I recognise, that murder of any leader does not so change a system as to end genocide. Killing Hitler would have handed more power to the thug who replaced him.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Jan 00 - 09:08 AM

A Bill story which shows why there is a need to challenge the state...
The firm I worked for was co-council with Bill on the defense of two shieks, facing extradition to India on false charges, in a case where all the co-defendants in India were tortured to death. (The two men are still in jail in the US, after almost 12 years - though they are innocent and all the evidence against them was secured under torture, and is not believable). The respondants were being brought into court in chains and had to remain chaned at the feet hands and waist, for the entire day. Bill was on another case, so Ron Kuby and Mary Pike were the only council for the first week of the hearings. The magistrate entered and all rose. All the Shieks, by the way were restricted to the last bench of the gallery, while Indian government officials, who were not introduced to the record sat WITHIN the bar! in the jury box, so much for Amercian court rooms not being segriated in this day. Well, Ron Kuby did not sit when the judge did. The magistrate told him to sit and he said he had a motion to make, the judge continued to insist he sit, until, as soon as he did, the judge told him to rise and make his motion. He objected to the chaining of the defendants, especially as the roof of the court was lined with snipers and the streets were closed down for blocks around the court house and there were 3! magnetic sercurity gate checks (like at the airport). The motion was denyed, and Ron tried to make it every morning, until finaly the magistrate began to refuse to hear him on it. Bill came after a week and rose to his feet. The very young magistrate was a Regan apointee. He began, Last night I saw President Regan on TV... the magistrate sat up interested... And he said the difference between US and Russian court rooms is that in the US, defendants are not brought in in chains. When I was defending Joe Ann Chessamrd... and the magistrate intruped saying, I dont think we need the history of American Jurisprudence as seen by William Kunstler. - Just trying to give you the benifit of my years Bill said. I dont think there is much differece between our ages, the magistrate right out of his thirties said to the seventy something Bill. Bill did a huge double take then sat down. Months later, it turned out the exraordinary security was brought on by the most vile misbehavior by the US government prosicutor. When the hearing went forward to inform both sides, the magistrate was sitting with his head in his hands and Bill began... Several months ago, I tried to give you the benifit of my years, I said, dont take the Government at face value, and well Judge? The government played you for a chump!
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: MarkS
Date: 07 Jan 00 - 06:58 PM

Kunstlers associate, the lawyer Ron Kube, appears nightly on New York City radio station WABC AM, around 6:00pm. This is a call in show (Ido not know the number), but Ron might be a good one to contact for more detailed info.

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Jan 00 - 07:59 PM

A small correction, important to Lawyers for one and another reason. Ron (sometimes lovingly called the Surly One by a dear departed friend) was Bills partner. The firm name was Kunstler and Kuby. An associate is a subordinate, and Bill did not treat Ron as such in business or otherwise. I know the error was not meant, but in fairness to the Surly One, I add this correction. and a Ron story. There is an elderly judge, who we will not name, as he is still on the bench. Ron and I were leaving a court room and Ron says, loudly enough for even the deafest judge to hear.. Old Judge E_____ was a truman appointee, and a great friend of Roy Cohans. He used to go to all of Roys partys. I hope he goes to the next one!
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: Brendy
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 01:34 AM

Apropos challenging the state, I see that Angelo Fusco, one of the other ones implicated in the Westmacott case was arrested in The South
He was been driven to the border, quite arbitrarily, by a couple of Gardaí, when the message came through to bring him back to Dublin, where it seems now that he wont be extradited.
B.

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 03:08 PM

Thanks for the Info. Breandan:
Thats a name I had not heard for many years! The tradgidy of Westmacotts death, was that he brought down so many lives with him. He was a reckless adventurer, not to speak ill of the dead, and I know that Joe Doherty felt that it was tragic to be put in a situation where young men killed each other... however, when you look at his life, he was always doing reckless things like jumping off a yatch in Hong Kong harbor to swim ashore, for which he was punnished by the SAS - as opposed to Joe, who found him self in the situation he was by the extreems of discrimination brought to his country by the support of loval bigotry by a forign power. From the age of 17, into his mid fourties, Joe spent all but 11 months in jail. WHen you see the accomplishments of others in the IRA, such as Sean McBride - deputy Sec Gen of the UN and founder of Amnesty International, you wonder at what the world may have seen from Doherty and others if England had chosen to meet the civil rights movement with statesmanship instead of guns and barbed wire.
Lets hope a new day is being built.
Hopefull in spite of lessons of the past
Larry

Subject: RE: Did you know William Kunstler Esq. ?
From: Reiver 2
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 11:59 PM

A name out of the past. In 1956 (or '57 -- my memory is slipping!) I was one of a small group of 13 who engaged in a civil disobedience act protesting the testing of atomic weapons at the Mercury testing ground near Las Vegas, Nev. This was the first of a series of civil disobedience actions protesting nuclear testing that resulted in a ban on atmospheric tests a few years later and eventually even underground tests as well.

After an all night vigil, we walked into the restricted area on the morning of an atmospheric test, and were promptly arrested. We were taken to Tonopah, the county seat, and tried there. Bill Kunstler came out to defend us. We pleaded no lo contendre and were given suspended sentences. A great man, Bill Kunstler. It's the only time I ever met him, but I'll never forget him. We need more like him.