Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 08:49 AM

shall they now ban mystery movies and novels?

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GerryM
Date: 10 Feb 23 - 04:00 PM

Acorn4 wrote, "I reckon if I tried hard enough I could find something to be offended about in any song lyric."

Or, as Tom Lehrer put it some years ago, "When correctly viwed/Everything is lewd/I could tell you things about Peter Pan/And the Wizard of Oz -- there's a dirty old man."

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 10 Feb 23 - 12:51 PM

Thanks Rain Dog for posting that programme link - a fascinating discussion which covers many elements of this thread including folk murder ballads.   There was still no acknowledgment that the lyrics were actually at least part ghost written by a woman!

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Feb 23 - 07:42 AM

On BBC Radio 4 right now

Antisocial - Delilah and cancelling songs


Should be available to listen to on BBC sounds

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Acorn4
Date: 10 Feb 23 - 04:02 AM

I reckon if I tried hard enough I could find something to be offended about in any song lyric.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 10 Feb 23 - 03:39 AM

The problem with this banning stuff is that it spreads to actual cancel culture. It's a slippery slope.   The Stones bowed to pressure and self-censored themselves by stopping performing 'Brown Sugar' live.   Tom Jones at least isn't bowing to the PC mob, and will keep performing Delilah despite the publicity and pressure to stop him singing it. Mind you I do agree with banning sectarian or racist songs in sporting and street contexts, as that does spread violence and hatred down generations.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Feb 23 - 03:15 AM

It should have been banned the day it was written.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 07 Feb 23 - 11:02 AM

I `ad that Gwyllam Thomas from the Welsh Rugby Union my cab the other day. `e was carrying an enormous ring binder box. It was full of something `cos `3 was `aving difficulty in lugging it around.
I said, " Morning Taff, what `ave you got there? Entries for the next Eisteddford?"
`e said, "Oh no Jim Boyo. It`s a pile of songs we `ave to consider banning at the Cardiff stadium rugby matches. I`ve just spent a couple of days in Tin Pan Alley going through all the material that mentions cruelty to women, animals, murder, executions and all manner of nasties."
I said,"Oh. That`s what banning the choirs from signing "Delilah" was all about. Is that it?"
`e said, "Yeah, We don`t want to be seen as a group of unthinking people, not taking other`s feelings into account."
I said, "Pull the other one Taff. You`re already mired in accusations of mysogony and all sorts of "isms" found in corporate life. You`ve just pulled this rabbit out of the `at as a attempt to "virtue signal" and take the pressure off!!"



Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Feb 23 - 10:16 AM

These days abuse happens in all including same sex relationships, so how banning the chorus of that song will help, is a puzzle

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Feb 23 - 08:54 AM

No, don't be sorry. It has been interesting, and rather encouraging, given the diverse views here. So Thank you.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Feb 23 - 08:42 AM

I'm almost sorry that I started the thread. But it was being discussed on Mudcat Facebook, and a discussion here was requested.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 23 - 06:41 AM

Livin' doll

Good luck charm hanging on my arm
To have, to hold, tonight

Does your mother know that you're out? ( just checkin'!)

I caynt get no girl reaction

I'd rather see you dead little girl
Than to be with another man

Pretty woman
Walkin' down the street
Pretty woman
The kind I'd like to meet

She was just seventeen
You know what I mean (wink wink)

There's a lot of it about...

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Feb 23 - 03:54 AM

Abuse takes many forms, mental as well as physical.
Women also abuse Men.
Unfortunately it will probably continue regardless of Delilah, or any other songs where women or men are portrayed as objects.
There are many reasons other than music for it happening.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 07:34 PM

Anne, About your post. May I politely and genuinely ask that unless (God forbid) your experience is first-hand, what qualifies you to describe the cause and effect, portray feelings of the abused, and delineate the gender of the perpetrators? I have been personally, very close to this subject for over fifty years, and would not claim any right to be a spokesperson.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 06:07 PM

Rain Dog: I notice that none of the usual posters have answered my earlier post about singing a murder ballad at the funeral of someone who has been murdered.

Where I come from, funerals are held in church and nobody would ever dream of singing any ballad of any kind, nice or nasty.

Our wakes would, I suspect, leave you jaw-to-the-floor speechless.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 05:53 PM

From the MRU executive perspective, racist and nonracist agree, Delilah is bad optics for the product and bad for shareholder value. 'Banning' is zero overhead. It's a no-brainer, throw the dogs a bone.

The athletes, fans, executives and choir will be no less prone to their individual human & general cultural failings than before. Ban happy Qatar ain't no Garden of Eden.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 05:22 PM

It is not about censorship. It is is about when it is appropriate to sing certain songs at certain times.

The WRU have their own issues to deal with.

I notice that none of the usual posters have answered my earlier post about singing a murder ballad at the funeral of someone who has been murdered.

I suspect that none of you would even think of singing such a song in those circumstances.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 05:17 PM

Well we could go back to the sixties and beyond to single out songs with dodgy lyrics ("of their time"?) The Beatles had some, the Stones had some, Elvis had some, Ol' Blue Eyes had some, Abba had one that I can think of. We can ban 'em, restrict 'em, moan about 'em. Or we can decide that most of 'em probably won't deprave or corrupt, accepting that humans are fairly resilient on the whole, and bite our lips. It's complicated and I'm not going to tell you what I think!

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Anne Lister sans cookie
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 05:02 PM

There are, of course, some interesting points of view being expressed here. Just a couple of points: firstly, incidents of domestic violence increase after both football and rugby matches. This domestic violence is mostly directed by men against women. Secondly, someone suggested the fans wouldn't sing the relevant lines in "Delilah" - seriously? Have you been at the events where it's sung? It's acted out and emphasised but of course it's all in good fun, isn't it, so let's not worry about that. Quite a few people have expressed quite a few reservations over the years, and the WRU have been discouraging it for quite a while, but this time it's got into the media so everyone is talking about it.
I don't know whether it should be dropped from the choirs or banned. It is good fun to sing and most of those enjoying the dramatics and the melodic side of it won't be going home to hit their partners. But yes, the WRU is acutely aware right now of the accusations of misogyny, so it is more of a complex issue than singing a murder ballad in a folk club.
Finally - I was an extra for the filming of "Dream Horse". One of our scenes was a karaoke in a night club, where Karl Johnson's character, suitably inebriated, leads us all in "Delilah", complete with raucous choruses and the dramatic underlining of the lyrics. In the film it is without dire consequences and simply highlights the Welsh Valleys culture, where this is such a normal part of a good night out. The women join in with the men. It is inconceivable that people will stop singing this song. It is, sadly, also inconceivable that most people will recognise just how uncomfortable that leaves women who have been subject to domestic abuse.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 03:32 PM

If you start singing that Don I'll get back on the train with Ed Pickford. That's not censorship it's revenge! :-)

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Don Wick
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 03:08 PM

It is Censorship if a choir cannot sing a particular part of the song, mind you, the song is a lot of old squit.
But I defend the right of the anyone to sing any old squit they might want to including "Tiptoe through the Tadpoles"

---

Stop the nonsense, use your own name. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 02:43 PM

American footballers will kneel for 2 minutes to "wake" the folks to social issues... and then cash a very large paycheck to sacrifice their bodies for the next 2-3 hours putting the same folk back to sleep.

Long game, big picture &c &c... how progressive can a kinder, gentler cheer for the same old circus meatgrinder really be?

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 01:55 PM

No. Nobody wins. Bang on again Phil.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 01:51 PM

RE: Verbs -- are for the general public. WRU executives likely said nothing at all internally and simply deleted it from the choir's playlist sans discussion. They went as far as they ethically could to [bad verb] the song internally. Saying the choir has not been [bad verbed] is not intellectually honest. WRU gets neither credit nor blame where fans are concerned... except...

RE: Violence -- There are no pronoun exemptions for CTE &c. It's equal opportunity... by the numbers. WRU, their choir and their fans are not blameless for the damage done to racist/sexist/homophobic footballers and victim footballers alike. Nobody wins. Prohibiting boxing in large venues where Sweet Caroline is sung makes better sense than WRU and the censors.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 12:26 PM

It's not censorship and it's not prohibition, just don't sing it in this choir. Yes, that's explained everything.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 09:04 AM

best version I ever heard was by the Boldon Banjo Band featuring Tommy Forde at one of their nightss at the Boldon Lad, Boldon Colliery, Co Durham in the 60s.

On the subject of Tom Jones songs, I always liked Ed Pickford's short version of the 'Green grass of home'

'The old town looked the same
so I got back on the train'

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 08:39 AM

They could substitute it with Banks of the Ohio, I suppose.
Weelye weelye Wileya.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Don Wick
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 08:33 AM

Great publicity for Tom Jones

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 07:32 AM

Consider this scenario.

A member of the folk community is brutally murdered. The family hold a funeral service and invite friends along to a pub/club for a get together afterwards in which songs will be sung.

Do you imagine they would want to hear a murder ballad or two?

Would you as a singer consider if it would be appropriate to sing a murder ballad?

Would any of you consider it censorship if the family said they did not want to hear such songs?

The WRU appear to have a long term problem with misogyny and sexism within their organisation. They have attracted a lot of bad press about it. I think most people can see why they have 'banned' this song, though tbey have banned it for a good while.

For the record I like murder ballads but I do see the problems with them.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 06:25 AM

It's not censorship and it's not prohibition.

The Welsh Rugby Union has announced that Delilah will no longer be sung by choirs at the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.

It would be censorship if they were ordering fans not to sing it, and saying anyone singing it would be thrown out. There's nothing stopping the fans from belting out the chorus. I'm guessing the fans probably weren't singing the controversial lines in the second verse anyway.

It's the Welsh Rugby Union's prerogative to choose what material a choir will sing at matches and to ask them to sing something different. Just as it's my choice to pick what songs I want the DJ to play at my wedding. Just as it's a radio station's choice to decide what songs they want to play on their radio station. Just as it's my choice to decide whether or not I want to sing 'Child Owlet' or 'Pretty Polly' at a folk club: if I decide I don't want to sing those songs, it's not 'censorship' it's a choice.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Banning bad songs
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 05:10 AM

Prohibition never works.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 03:06 AM

Well-meaning but unintentionally silly. You've just summed it up excellently.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 09:04 PM

Talking of red lines Nick Dow, though going off on a tangent - even back in the early 1980's I remember there was a local cabaret singer in Inverness where I live, who was singing Jim Maclean's 'Massacre of Glencoe' to hotel parties of tourists, and he wouldn't sing the words "Raped Glencoe" in the chorus.   I can't remember what he changed it to.. but those two words in the chorus give the song it's power, and he cut its metaphorical balls off. An early example there of 'folk woke', the word raped being taken out of context and being too rough and uncomfortable for the singer to take. Back to Delilah!

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 07:35 PM

All forms of song-making genres have their own self-appointed red lines. Those red lines are protean. Folk Music and Blues are my specialities as most people know. What we are seeing now, is the introduction of a red line that like all red lines is debatable.
We see Chanty's minus their racist words, we hear Folk songs censured for verses that support marital violence. The singer makes his or her choice, and the Folklorist suggests that a zoologist would not ignore warthogs because they are not pretty, so the sterile world of the rugby song and the violence of the ballad Lambkin, should be treated with equal importance. The Blues singers disguised the sexuality of their songs or as in the case of Lucille Bogan remain unabashed.
We are now left with the unenviable task of making some sort of decision as to the validity of the censorship. Therefore we must decide if the roar of a rugby crowd, or the harmony of a choir in some way corrupts the listener, or encourages negative stereotypes. If you agree with this context, then some of the song titles already mentioned in this thread are probably a better target for censure than the tongue in check financially driven lyrics of Delilah. Then again it depends on which side of the line you stand. How big is the axe and how large the grindstone?

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 04:47 PM

I think one of the oddities and discussion points is what do you do if some song has a killer sing a long chorus, but the lyrics are in this case at odds with the happy go lucky Mariachi pastiche music? It is relevant to folk music, in that a folk song is one taken up by the people, often these days spreading virally at sporting matches with very strange choices taking off. Ok it started off as a hyped up story, and much ado about nothing for clickbait. However, some of the principles involved are an interesting side line.. and Mudcat is a discussion group.   I also re-iterate that the lyrics in question were at least part written by a woman.. although the male in her life took credit for the lyrics.. which was music business and marital misogyny.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 02:19 PM

My old mate Lurch, rest his soul, sang Country songs in a deep bass Lancashire accent. Delilah wax his classic

I saw the leet on the neet that I passed by 'er winnder...

:-D

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 02:07 PM

This thread has become fascinating. Thanks Phil.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 01:39 PM

Bread and circus. It ain't new.

Was introduced to Texas legend Earl Campbell some time ago. He's in a wheelchair and needs two canes to walk two paces. It wasn't Luv Ya Blue! lyrics what did that to flesh and bone while tens of thousands cheered on Monday Night Football®©.

A few weeks ago, the Yanks stopped the heart of one of their footballers. CPR live on national camera whilst the talking heads pondered how and when to finish the game and sort out their coming playoff standings.

If you can label this 'sport' purely for your entertainment pleasure... it takes .001% the very, exact same tortured moral 'logic' to excuse Delilah's so-called 'violent' lyrics.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 10:52 AM

Don't know who you are guest but I am bound to say you have nailed it for me. In that context, there is a lot of fuss about nothing. Equally accurately Filk points out that there are worse things to listen to. I never liked that song at all.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 09:49 AM

What I find truly incomprehensible is why any "man" would want to sing it.

Very few songs shout "I'm a whinging, snivelling, little creep of a man" the way that "Delilah" does.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 08:46 AM

> There's nothing stopping fans belting out the chorus of Delilah.

If they did during the match, the broadcasters managed to filter it out from the broadcast. But the fans not being heard singing the song in question might have had more to do with Ireland getting an early lead.

Oh, and if you want something offensive which people still sing out loud without thinking, check where "Hear him whip the women just around midnight" comes from, and ponder the meaning of that song's title.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 07:33 AM

As others have pointed out, it's not been banned, it's just that choirs will no longer be singing it.
There's nothing stopping fans belting out the chorus of Delilah.

I don't see the relevance of pointing out that lots of traditional folk songs have murders in them, that's a totally different thing. They're not being sung as feelgood anthems by choirs at Welsh rugby fixtures.

I'd wonder what was going on their heads if football crowds started joyously belting out 'Child Owlet' or 'Pretty Polly'

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 07:28 AM

Preferably Yankie Doodle Dixie!!!

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 05:50 AM

Reminds me of the paranoid dyslexic who couldn't escape the nagging fear they were following someone.

I'd tell the WRU and the censors to get the priorities critically sorted.

You already have a lottery. It's called chronic traumatic encephalopathy. It is, by the numbers –– morally, ethically and rationally, worse than all the WRU's overabundance of homophobia, misogyny, racism and sexism combined.

If you're good with that, your choirs can whistle Dixie for all I care.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 05:10 AM

Very clever. We should of course blame it all on the song. That will solve everything. After all, nobody can sing a song about the murder of a female without being misogynistic or sexist, can they?

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 03:56 AM

Some of you need to get your heads out of your song books and look at some recent news regarding the problems that the WRU appear to have with misogyny and sexism within their organisation. The eventual publication of a report into the matter might well make things clearer.

Plenty of people like and sing along with songs without looking closely at the lyrics. Perhaps the WRU should have considered having someone give a 10 minute introduction to the song, explaining why it was a good thing to sing a song about the murder of a woman in a stadium full of 70,000 people. They could organise a raffle too.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 07:20 PM

Well if it had not been a story in the news, it would probably not have a problem, but as it is, or was, there are going to be potential knock-on effects. Hence the interest here, and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: meself
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:03 PM

A choir dropped some pop song from their repertoire. I don't think the world of song will ever recover. Let us run and tell the internet.

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 05:22 PM

Re- the misogyny of the lyrics. At least some of the lyric was actually written by Barry Mason's then wife Sylvan Whittingham.   She didn't get a credit due to marriage and song writing misogyny - also of course Les Reed and Barry Mason were considered one of those song writing duo teams, so a third party credit would have got in the way of their 'brand'. She did later get a settlement, but Sylvan's name still isn't down as a co-writer.

I see the song as being in the folk tradition of murder ballads with redemption, or a price to pay. Here it is obvious the protagonist has flipped in a crime of passion. As it says they are going to come to break down the door - the listener can make their own ending up. So he would either 'top himself', or get the force of the law falling upon him.

I am also reminded of Olivia Newton John, singing 'Banks of the Ohio'.. that one will have to go next!

Subject: RE: Delilah 'Banned' by Welsh Rugby Union
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 11:03 AM

Well exactly Bonzo! How stupid can you get?