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BS: compassion or honesty
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Subject: compassion or honesty From: Iodine Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:40 AM i sometimes struggle with the morality of compassion and honesty. which is the most valuable. when is it morally right to lie and substitute compassion for honesty and visa versa. is puzzlement at times |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:02 AM Iodine, How wonderful to be here right now to reply and to provide the following for your review! You might be interested in knowing that since the thread's last post, I have determined that there needs be no conflict between honesty and compassion. I am deeply interested in discussing this further with you, and I am sure that others who posted to the thread referenced also have much to share. (As will others.) I'm headed for bed. Shall we pick it up tomorrow? ~Susan~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Iodine Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:48 AM ahhhhhh but there is conflict. if a man were lying there with a bullet hole in his chest, and he expressed a terror of dying and you knew he was going to die, what would you do? look into the face of terror, be honest and say "yes you are going to die" and be telling the truth,and make his last moments more terror filled, or, look at him with compassion and say " everything will be o.k., do not fear". if so then you just lied. conflict. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Iodine Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:07 AM Susan, Thank you for the link, was mose enjoyable to read, but conflict exists in every entry. i feel there is no real answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Little Neophyte Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:01 AM When you are in a situation where you do not know what to do, ask your heart, it will give you the best answers. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Allan C. Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:45 AM Or flip a coin;-] |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Neil Lowe Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:54 AM Telling a dying person that "everything's going to be ok" may not necessarily be perceived as a lie, but as a prediction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Little Neophyte Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:57 AM That is a very beautiful thought Neil Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Allan C. Date: 30 Mar 00 - 08:08 AM I said "flip a coin". But perhaps I should explain. I learned some years ago that it was one way to make a decision about something which seems to have only two answers, each of which appear to have equal weight. After the coin makes the decision for you, ask yourself how you feel about that decision. Then do what is in your heart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 08:15 AM One should be honest, but to tell someone they are going to die could hasten the event.. Tell the truth.. ie. You are injured, but I/WE shall do everything to help you. By giving comfort to the dying you will not hasten the event and may relieve the process without lying... Those of us who have had to do this will attest to the fact that you neither lie, nor predict, just try to comfort and control the inevitable. For other situations I have always found the truth hurts less than a lie in the end; remember the truth is not always appreciated at the time it is given. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 30 Mar 00 - 08:53 AM I agree wholeheartedly with Dave. the truth hurts less than a lie in the end; remember the truth is not always appreciated at the time it is given. I believe that people confronted with dying or serious illness prefer honesty with compassion, even if they don't understand it initially. And often times, we change our minds about how we accept adversity after we've had time to reflect. I saw a beautiful quote (by the senator who died of ALS, can't remember his name) in the intensive care hallway when my father was seriously injured. It said something to the effect that in that place they tried to provide love, honesty and compassion. If anyone knows the quote, I'd love to have it. Mary |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 09:17 AM There are lies, and there are lies, and the intent is largely the difference. Compassion leads us to try to speak truths that others can experience, within their limits, not to overwhelm them "because it is the truth". Speaking the truth about porno to a nine-year-old is untrue even though the teller details "facts". It is important to remember, IMHO, that we are dealing here iwth live human communications, not academic papers or arbitrary standards of so called "objectivity". It is terribly important to be true to yourself, to be able to know what you know and to see what you see. But this does not mean you must blindly spout all the facts you know to anyone at any time. It is not good communication to do so. Just because something can be said to be true, does not mean it is the right thing to say to a given person at a given time. Who you are speaking to, and what you intend to do, are key elements. A compassionate person prefers the truth, generally, because on the whole honesty is better than dishonesty. I would say that courage, integrity to what you know, and compassion are far more important than subscribing to a moral code that says you must say the whole truth at all times to anyone. But with people of good will it is generally the most helpful way to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Mooh Date: 30 Mar 00 - 09:32 AM Iodine, Perhaps this is why we should believe in, and practice forgiveness. If we lie with intent to comfort and protect, we should forgive and be forgiven for our sincerity of effort. Compassion and honesty do not exist in a vacuum, they exist with other virtues within morality, which together will lead you out of your puzzlement. (We sometimes use words which do not say what we mean in order to convince ourselves that "everything will be alright", moreso to delude ourselves perhaps than to comfort someone else.) At any rate, it works for me. The value of compassion and honesty depend on the situation and are not absolute in their relation to each other. My point of view. Peace. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: canoer Date: 30 Mar 00 - 09:39 AM I think it's wise to precede all moral-code statements with the word, "normally." Normally, I will always tell the truth. Because life can throw up exceptional situations, which need flexibility and imagination instead of a rigid pre-made code. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 09:41 AM Amos, Because the truth hurts, people tend avoid it. I always use the truth; and have never regreted doing so despite the consequences and retaliations.. Yours,Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Little Neophyte Date: 30 Mar 00 - 11:05 AM Well what about this one.......... Lets say you are married and love your wife very much but for some reason you have a one night fling with someone else. The next day you regret what you did, or you come to realize your marriage means so much to you that you will never do that kind of thing again. Is it worth telling your wife the truth? Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM Well, Davey, I don't know that the truth hurts, depending on which truth, and who ye're speaking to. I think laying out the truth raises the ability of those around you to face the truth, which does them a favor by making them stronger. And it is sure easier to understand than a fabric of PR tissues. "Tell the truth and shame the devil" is (normally) good advice. But I am not going to discuss. say, my sex life with Gargoyle no matter how moral I feel! :>) Why? Don't trust him. Being strong enough to speak the truth and handle the consequences is a great virtue, to my mind. But I have seen scalawags use that to justify saying really nasty things "because it's just the truth" (when it isn't). So the courage you show is wise, perhaps tempered with the wisdom that "truth" is relative to viewpoint. A slimeball sees the world in a more hurtful way, and his telling of the so-called truth can be more harm than virtue, because it is filtered through his own emotional distortions. "Consider the source" is great wisdom, too. Despite such sophistry, I am glad you follow the code you describe...proud to know you, therefore. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Mar 00 - 11:07 AM WHICH truth is THE truth? |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: kendall Date: 30 Mar 00 - 11:24 AM A famous eastern guru once said "The greatest of all attributes is straightforwardness." You can be honest without being cruel. If you cant, then you need to expand your command of the language. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: harpgirl Date: 30 Mar 00 - 11:31 AM ...this is a music site, Iodine. I for one would rather see music threads. Philosophical discussions belong on some other site. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 11:55 AM Little Neo.... In this day and age yes I would tell her, and expect the full consequences. Such am event would warrant a medical reason for her to cease relations with me. Far better than the possibility of spreading aids to your family, dont you think? Yours,Aye.Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:09 PM OK Harpgirl, let's turn this into a music thread. Little Neo & Dave (tam). What songs would you sing to her 'before' and 'after' telling her? |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:20 PM I would be dead after; or singing Soprano mate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: katlaughing Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:23 PM Seems to me this discussion is music related in that we have had great discussions on songs with hurtful venacular and whether it is appropriate to use those terms nowadays or to change the words so that they do not offend. Most recent I can think of was on "coon songs". While the old words may have been the "truth" of their age, the "truth" now, is that they are hurtful and denigrating, so singing them doesn't seem very compassionate no acceptable to a lot of audiences. Just an example, IMO. As to flipping a coin, I was always taught and still practise, that there is always a third alternative, that we are never confronted with an "either or", much as I hope we can find so for the Mudcat. katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: jeffp Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:47 PM The beauty of flipping a coin is that, when the coin is in the air, you realize what you want the answer to be. Ignore the result of the coin flip and go with your gut. Chances are that you will have hit on the right thing to do. jeffp |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: thosp Date: 30 Mar 00 - 01:00 PM "it ain't often easy it ain't often kind did you ever have to make up your mind" i try to stick with the truth,until a lie seems the more humane thing--- i would try not to tell a truth to someone--who would then go off and hurt someoneelse with it--- peace (Y) thosp |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 01:15 PM It is absolutely worth telling her the truth. Especially if the truth is you made an huge mistake, desperately which you had not, and are full ready to amend the damage. Your marriage will either survive or it won't. If it does it will have been strenghtened and annealed by the emotional fires brought out by your lapse and subsequent truth telling. If it does not, you have learned a valuable lesson in consequences; but if it is strong at the foundation, it will survive and be better for it. Hiding it, on the other hand, may keep things pleasant on the surface, but the internal bonds start dry-rotting the day that starts, and sooner or later the dryrot will collapse one way or another. As to the wrongness or rightness various threads, this one points to the inside story of the blues in a deep way, and is legitimate fare, but you know, the name is on the outside, and there is an unlimited freedom not to read it. Personally I find the pursuit of folkmusic without any reference to the tumult and passion and pain in which it is naturally embedded to be a dry pursuit, sort of like panning for gold at Disneyland...but that's just me. I think there's enough room here for variety. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 01:43 PM Amen Brother Amos.. Variety is the spice of life.. but in this context it could strike a painfull chord for some; perhaps a guilt chord for others.. Is this musically correct, or should I use a different key? |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,TTCM Date: 30 Mar 00 - 01:54 PM Well we've always been extremely honest and candid with our opinions here, and tend to say what the silent really majority think, but wouldn't publicly put in print. Judging by the responses to our postings, it's obvious why the silent majority remain so. TTCM --the other Mudcat clique-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:00 PM Well, you could discover you choice in singing out led you to B flat, but next time, you might think it better to C sharp...ugghh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:39 PM Harpgirl, That's funny, I thought this was a Cafe FOR music people who are... whole people.. and share many common interests for the perspective of music people?? Defined by its collective membership and voice, not limited to any one paradigm? If we met at a 3D Cafe and talked about music, you'd get up and walk out if I asked after your family? Here in my part of the world we START with the personal stuff (from the mundane to the sublime) before gettin' down to bizness... it's a rural thing, you know, a politeness... Have been corrected by my more-rural and more-gracious friends often enough to think we don't do ENOUGH of that here! Well, go figure. ~Susan~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Jim the Bart Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:42 PM Is a discussion of the nature of "truth" not a musical thread? I would hope that anyone playing, singing or writing music would have spent some time pondering the nature of what is true. There are many ways to improve as a "player" One is to work on your technique. Another is to work on your knowledge and understanding of your art. One way that is often overlooked is to work on your "self". As Mason Williams once said, "it's a cheap trick, but it works." By the way - I am relatively new to this forum but enjoy greatly the spirit of the discourse. It is truly a rare and precious thing. One last thought: The conflict between truth-telling and compassion lessens when we stop insisting on "the" truth and remember that all we ever have for certain is "our" truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Felisi 52' Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:52 PM I recently read a wonderful article on this very subject: It spoke of this friend the writer had who always told the truth. If he was served a meal which he didn't like, he would not say it was wonderful and try to eat as much as possible between grins, but would speak his mind. He would also comment freely on any subject telling anyone who asked exactly how he felt. For this reason, he was rarely invited to dinner parties, and when he was, people seldom asked for his opinion. He was not overly critical mind you, he enjoyed as much and was just as easy going as anyone else, nor did he complain much at all. He just told the truth.
In the article, the writer asked who would truly want someone like that around, especially at an event like a party.
I have a dear friend who always thinks about sparing everyone's feelings. He would rather endure a minor (or major) hardship than make anyone he knows feel bad about something. He shows compassion towards people even when his true feelings or the truth itself directly conflicts with those compassionate acts. For this reason, it makes it quite difficult for me to remain friends with him. I can never be too sure if what he is saying is the truth, or if it's what he thinks I need or want to hear. I would rather suffer a hundred painful truths, than one "compassionate" lie. The latter will forever be more painful to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:54 PM Garg/TTCM: You exemplify the point I was making; for example, there is nothing honest about your posts being couched in the first person plural, and it makes your message more obscure and more discomfiting because one has to adjust for the fact that for whatever reason, you are a stranger to the honesty of saying "I think....". Again, there is nothing honest about saying that you represent a silent majority, an un-named, invisible collectivity flung up to add some sort of spooky weight to a viewpoint you do not have the courage to claim plainly in the first place. Again, there is nothing honest about stating an extremely negative opinion in unspecified terms, merely as an antagonistic and mean opinionated conclusion -- such as "you suck" or "why don't you hop out", which provides no grounds for understanding and no path for improvement, and makes your personal rancor impossible to understand and, evidently, impossible to resolve. There is nothing honest about hiding facts ("I disagree with your statement that...") behind these broad-brush, non-specific, negative generalizations. Again, there is nothing honest about attributing motivations to the mysterious alleged "majority" which you style yourself as representing, such as "would not put publicly in print..." implying even more negativity and unspoken confusion than you yourself have, and implying it is held by many when in fact it is here being voiced by one -- you. So while you have engaged in uninhibited and uncensored slander, I would hardly dignify it with the name candor, and would put it in quite a different category than honesty, in my humble opinion. I hope I have named clearly above the reasons I think this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:06 PM That all seems true Amos, but I think I'm bothered by that phrase from TTCM----"silent majority." I know I've heard that around here before.... from somebody else though............Geez, I just can't seem to place it.........Now who else would have used that? I guess my memory just ain't what it used to be. Or maybe it is......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: katlaughing Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:13 PM Yeah, I know what you mean, Spaw, just can't place it, huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:13 PM I think the phrase was made infamous by Richard Milhaus Nixon, originally...I could be wrong here...but if so, it seems about right. If you can't stand on the facts and state your piece plainly, claim several billion invisible supporters to make a bad argument seem overwhelming. Cheap trick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: katlaughing Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:18 PM Haha, and the silent majorityjust like the moral majority, is neither! |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,TTCM Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:21 PM 'Spaw, your opinion is entirely irrelevant to us. On the other hand Harpgirl expresses a valid opinion and is crapped on in the process. What is so exquisitely ironic about this forum, is that those who disagree vehemently with our postings, are the ones causing us to post in the first place and, are the ones responsible for bringing this place to the abyss where it now resides. Want to be rid of TTCM? Talk about your knowledge of wood, glues, experiences related to hammered dulcimer buidling, advise and volunteer HELPFUL musical advice to others who are new here or those seeking information. Encourage others here who have an angstrom of musical thought to post THOSE thoughts, and leave the tripe and the buffoonery to private email messages. TTCM --the other clique on Mudcat-- ...oh and for the umpteenth goddamn time, WE ARE NOT GARGOYLE or have any connection to him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM I suppose "noisy minority" wouldn't be good either..... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:29 PM Geez, Garg, don't get your knickers in a twist -- so you apprenticed under him. So you learned to emulate his underhanded, scurrilous, mean, needling, soulless, neurotic, obsessive methods of hidden communications and making the environment seem much more vile than it really is by using phony generalizations with no substance to them...so, I was wrong! I guess the price you pay for lurking around in shadows hiding is not being seen very clearly, and my vision gets kind clouded up when I deal with flying horseshit anyway. Sorreee. Send me a photo so i'll know ya next time! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:31 PM If want to talk about music, GO AHEAD, and quit bitching about those who want to discuss this life we sing about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Lonesome EJ Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:36 PM Gee, Amos. Is it just me or did I detect a note of compassion amid all that honesty? (just getting back on topic) |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,TTCM Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:46 PM Definition of Amiss: Male version of Katlaughing, Sorcha, Praise, all rolled into one; (1) constructive/relevant-to-this-forum post for every 50 postings. Suggestion: Spend less time here and more time with Barky. Nuf said phoaks. (hmmmmm..spelled the word the same way as Katlaughing and Sorcha. Does this mean TTCM is them?) TTCM --the other clique on Mudcat-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:57 PM Spoken like a true conscience, TTCM. I will take your advice. Thanks for coming up with specifics for once... Oh, by the way, a clique is a collective noun...it implies plural membership... so it isn't really honest to speak for one unless you are an appointed representative individual. It's a tad less than candid. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Ebbie Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:57 PM twitchy tongue casting mud, I detect neither compassion nor honesty in your communications, but a private agenda that is meant to serve only you. So what are you doing in this thread? E. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Jack Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM One problem I have with this question is that none of us go about a complete and clear understanding of any situation, and so the balance we seek is not between honesty and compassion, but between our imperfect understanding of each at any given time. Also, how often is one faced with a dillema between pure honesty or pure compassion? Most moral decisions require a response that includes both, with the weighting of each a function of the degree of imperfection in our own understanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:15 PM Amos, If he's NOT Mr. Leading Underscore, then there must be TWO of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Anthony Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:18 PM Dear Batholomew et al, I think you've nailed it, especially with regard to the relationship between truth and creativity -- the wonderful dynamic that is so much apart of any earnest voyage of self-discovery. I love the little sermon Arlo Guthrie preaches in the middle of Amazing Grace on the Precious Friends CD. He's paraphrasing Lee Hays and says something like, "It was Lee who taught me that first you've got to do for yourself what you want to for the rest of the world." It's a telling comment because it implies that truth and goodness, which are close to the same thing, are not group activities. And that true honesty involves mastery of the rather painful art of relating to one another as individuals. That's why political and corporate promises ring hollow generally, and why collectivist thoeries of government seem especially apt to breed the very sorts of oppression their proponents wish to amend. The truth that matters is the truth one tells while looking one other person straight in the eye. Anyone who's ever played music in front of an audience knows this. It may sound pollyannaish, but it has been my experience that people who are really honest with themselves aren't very conflicted when it comes to saying and doing the right thing, even when faced with tough moral choices. Look at it this way (at least those of you who are people of faith): Does God ever lie? I don't believe so. On the other hand, does He (or She) torture us with revelations we cannot bear or comprehend? Again, I personally think not, though there will be those who disagree. In any event, when we're communicating difficult truths to someone under our authority, or who depends on us for their well-being, or who is our friend, or our lover, or who wants to hurt us or ask us for something we cannot give because it will harm them, are we not -- in a small way -- in the same boat with God? Isn't that what being created in the divine image really means? The ideal here is not mere (as you Brits would say) truth but truth tempered with wisdom. Surely that is hardly the same as telling a lie, even a kind one. Think of it like this: Why do many of us (though I'm sure not all) dislike most kinds of mainstream pop music? Because it's inherently wicked? Because it's badly played? Because the musicians have no skill or talent? Because making music for money is evil? None of these assumptions hold water in a literal sense. Rather we dislike such music because we perceive it to be dishonest. Even little kids can tell the difference between commercial ear candy and songs that genuinely minister to the human spirit – at least until they become teenagers and by definition temporarily insane! Sorry to have gone on so, but this is a huge question and one that speaks to the heart of what playing, singing and listening to folk music should be about. Yours Yingily and Yangily Tony |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:28 PM What harpgirl said, BTW, was that she, for one, would rather see more music threads. This is a fact -- her preference is plainly stated, owned and signed. It is almost undoubtedly a true fact, since I cannot imagine why she would falsifyher own opinions. She bravely states what she sees. The second thing she says is not a fact, but an opinion: philosophical discussions belong elsewhere. We can assume she was including this as part of her preference, rather than a policy dictate which would have to come from the policy setter for the group, namely Max Seigel. I don't see any crapping -- she was not trounced, invalidated, subjected to snide raillery for her opinion; somone else who did not agree fully discussed their view of things, comparing opinions. So where's the "crap"? Oh, p'raps it was a projection. A |