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BS: compassion or honesty
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,TTCM Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:30 PM Ebbie: Last time we checked, this was an equal opportunity tripe-menusia-opinionated-flamethrowing-condescending-revivalist-healing-bullshitting-off topic posting-FORUM not limited to anyone in particular. TTCM --the other clique on Mudcat-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:47 PM Ya know, sometimes I think its one person and sometimes I think its Garg........I may be wrong on both counts. Now in the last post, I was leaning some to Garg, 'cause it took me a minute or so to figure out what the hell "menusia" was..........I thought it was some kind of anti-feminine remark at first, but alas, it was just bad spelling. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Rick Fielding Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:48 PM Well I don't know, but if you ARE Gargoyle, you sure learned how to spell in a hurry! Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:00 PM To menusia!!! That would be a GREAT Mudcat name. I may take it myself. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: TTCM (retired) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:11 PM ..How appropro, Praise.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Ebbie Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:21 PM Well, twitchy, perhaps it's good that you're trying to broaden your outlook. You know, one of my brothers is like you (or are you a woman?) but the rest of us eventually decided our mother just hadn't wanted him. What's your excuse? (Ok, OK, I will now stop the name calling.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: katlaughing Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:23 PM Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, eh, phoaks?**BG** |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Iodine Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:24 PM Thank you GUEST ANTHONY, it was indeed those lines by Arlo Guthrie that caused me to ponder this question, especially since i have been in the position that i had to decide truth or compassion or trying to effectively combine the two. So see Harp there is a musical thread here, and many songs deal with emotions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Ebbie Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:26 PM subsiding... |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Sophocleese, cookieless in Ontario... Date: 30 Mar 00 - 06:31 PM If you wish you can relate everything that people talk about to folk music, or sex, or politics, or baseball or aphids. So please, please stop using the silly argument that "Folk is about everything therefore we can talk about everything and we will still be talking about folk." I'm not saying this is a lousy topic, clearly I'm reading it so I was interested enough to look, but it is not about folk or blues music its about people and ethical considerations. Please don't argue that folk and blues is about people and ethical considerations, ALL artistic expression is about people and their concerns, only the language is different. Forums or discussions where all the guidelines about content go out the window end up being led by personalities, good or bad but always somehow forceful, not topics. TTCM's imputation of cliquishness probably stems form this. So to get back to topic. I do not consider myself to be part of a clique, I don't think of myself as one of the forceful posters in this forum, more often I feel I am ignored and powerless, but I was taught that you must always speak truth to power even when that can be difficult, so I'm speaking my truth to the powers here on this forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:01 PM Soph-- Re: "I was taught that you must always speak truth to power ..." I have found that truth is never wasted, and often not ignored even when there is no response or a negative response. Someone I cared about a great deal helped me with that. I had spoken much truth to deaf ears with him, or so I thought! About 6 years later, we were at the same storytelling event and he sought me out. He was Telling and I was just there to listen, and I certainly would not have presumed to go open old biz with his performance coming up. So I was really taken off guard when he approached me and said, "I'm so glad you're here, there's something I have wanted to tell you for a long time. I just wanted to tell you-- all those things you tried to help me see-- you were right. The day I could see that, my life began to change. Thank you so much." Well of course I didn't deserve that amount of thanks, because he had done his own changing, and that had been much harder than any courage I'd had to screw up to tell him my "humble" opinion! *BG* But his thanks were so loud and clear that I was able to see something I had never considered before. What I took away from this was that if you speak the truth in love-- including sometimes the truth that there are things you need to say or would like to say but won't until you can say them effectively-- it has a funny way of sinking in when it is needed most. It is absorbed and goes into some kind of holding place until it is just what you always wanted to hear. (Usually we forget that we had heard it before and think that it's our own brilliant courage!!!) After my friend told me this, I thought about how I receive truth. Suddenly I had a list, as long as both arms, of people who had been perfectly right and whose truth I had not been ready to hear. And it kicked in later just like my friend described. And I hadn't even realized it, much less thanked them. I also learned as a result of thinking about this and trying it with important truths, that our responsibility is WHAT and HOW and WHEN and WHY we tell. We must be responsible about this to any extent we can, good days and bad, doing the best we can at any given moment. But we cannot be responsible for how it will be received. We can care how people will feel and react, and be as helpful as we can, but it is really up to us each how we receive truth and WHEN we let things sink in. And on that side we also do the best we can at all times-- at least one of you in particular has found out on one day or another that my openness to hear truth can vanish like smoke in a gale-- when I am not up to wrestling things out, the best truth I can be offered at that moment is, "I love you, I am not going away, I see that you're miserable, and we'll get to the other stuff later, and I know we'll work it through cuz we'll stick with it till it's as peaceful as we can make it, for us both." And that is how I think of our accountability for the truth we tell. Are we willing to take care of natural the consequences of however well or poorly we told truth? Loving positivity or harsh correction, and all in between-- are we there to keep someone company while they look at the stuff that the truth has brought out into the open? Because, see, truth is never in a vacuum. It makes more truth start to flow. It's as much a process as an event, as much an expression of your valus as a value itself. (Oh dear!! It makes me think of friends in the 70's-- you knew someone was a friend if they not only brought their stash over, but they hung around enjoying the effects with you till it mostly wore off!! I hate it when people don't do that!) When you receive truth in love, like I described above, it becomes easier to give it. When you give truth like that it becomes easier to receive it. Me, I been practicin'. Anyone else? ~Susan~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:06 PM Soph, regarding the folk argument, I'm inclined to agree with you. Music may be a part of a discussion thread, may even have started it, but its presence isn't necessary to the discussion in many cases and justifying BS with a musical reference or saying that its all about music is ludicrous. So what though? While we're picking the thing apart, ther are a few other arguments that might be equally addressed. "Too much BS"---Yeah, so what? There are always a lot of music threads going and plenty of ways to track them if that's a problem. "This is a folk and blues site."---Yeah, so what? It doesn't say its ONLY a folk and blues site. We can't even define the terms anyway. We were all brought here by the music, but many have found other things to talk about. If you can get Max to change the title to ONLY, I'll be happy to shut up. "Some people are just in love with their own words."---Yeah, so what? Some people post a lot, some don't. I can't help but notice that generally everyone gets a say if they want it. I get ignored a lot too. So what? Is someone's thoughts more worthwhile because they post less or more? "The BS is running people off."---I can never understand this one. As long as the BS is confined to the BS thread, so what? If you don't want to BS, don't open the thread. A lot of new folks have liked the BS and has made them feel comfortable here. I wonder how many have been run-off by the constant bickering and the attacks by some of the "We HATE BS" contingent? If you hate BS, don't get involved. But I'll tell you this...I've been ignored a lot more in the music threads than in the BS. But again, so what? There are others, but those just kind of hit me at the moment. This isn't an attack on you Soph by any means. I have no idea how you feel on those other subjects and, as I said, I agree about the folk is everthing argument. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Paddy(1) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:28 PM TTCM What's the difference between a duck? Paddy(1) |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: kendall Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:29 PM Amos, when I read some of your posts, I wish I had majored in English instead of history. (compliment) |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: TTCM (retired) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:30 PM Well Mr. 'Spaw, if we grant you your rant, then really everything you have said, can be summarized with the analogy I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out. We recognize that this Forum can never be what we (TTCM) want it to be or a return to what it once was---that it has a life of its own. We do enjoy giving that life a good kick in the ass every once in a while, to remind phoaks of what this place once represented. We respectfully submit to Max, that the catch logo --A Magazine Dedicated To Folk and Blues Music be dropped. The fact that this Forum was once A Magazine Dedicated to Folk and Blues Music now falls firmly into the category of rumor. TTCM --the other clique on Mudcat-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Lonesome EJ Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:41 PM Actually, TTCM, that was well stated. And now I must say I take you honestly when you say you aren't Garg- your response was too clear and logical to have come from him. I disagree with your point of view, but admire the succinct way in which you defended it in the above post. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 08:11 PM I know what you mean Leej.......... But I gotta' tell you that your analogy, old, tired, chiched, ang hackneyed as it is, just don't work. It would imply that the music stopped when the BS began which is patently untrue. I'm not going to do a count, but you know as well as anyone that the thread count will favor music over BS and both can coexist here happily. You said the 'Cat isn't going back to the old days and you're right. And its not going to go exactly where you or I or anyone else wants it to go either. We'll adjust or we'll leave. Its sad that your adjustment involves constant carping about it though. It must be a real drag to walk around with that much baggage, but if it winds your watch......... I would suggest though that since you are aware that its not going back to the good ol' days and that you really can't affect it either way (I know you understand that...you don't like it, but you know its true)then you might restrain yourself from constantly taking on those who are just enjoying themselves and doing some learning in the process. Just take me on all the time instead. I represent much of what you detest, but you go after those good hearted souls who DO care about other's opinions...even yours. So just save the vitriol and the harangues and rants for me, I'll be happy to answer you anytime you post the crap. In the meantime, since you're such a music lover with such a vast following, take your clique and click on the "Create a New Thread" button and have at it. Or are you too addicted to the BS? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Ebbie Date: 30 Mar 00 - 08:47 PM And now it's my turn to apologize- not only for my mean-spirited aggression but for poisoning my own well. I've been miserable ever since. TTCM (The True Conscience of Mud Cat?? Oh, come on!), as long as you speak truth as you see it, I guess I can't complain- I do the same. It would be interesting to see who the person is behind your facade, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: katlaughing Date: 30 Mar 00 - 08:57 PM It would be equalling interesting if s/he showed a little tolerance and nurturing towards the younger and newer members, some of whom may be beginners, as well. It is also to the credit of Mudcatters that we even engage with someone who claims a majority while remaining anonymous, unaccountable, and inaccesiblae through the very same private messges s/he tries to force the rest of us to use in lieu of the forum. If you want a strict and rigid system, perhaps you should take your so-called clique and start your own. Max has said time and again what we do here is alright with him and that should be the end of it. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST, Another conscience.... Date: 30 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM One of it's legs is both the same, Paddy(1). But I digress. I feel the same as TTCM. He has hit the nail on the head! What a heap of crap! As for some of the rest of you. I refer you to TTCM's BS to constructive posts ratio. I am not _gargoyle, TTCM, I have never communicated with them, I can only do line breaks in HTLM, but I feel like they do on certain subjects. And it is true that were there no bullshitters, there would be no true consciences. For there would be no need for us. The people who complain about our existence are the ones who give birth to us. The way to make us go away is to stop filling this otherwise excellent forum with the mutual appreciation society, the highly overinflated egos that bear no relation to any actual talent possesed. In fact the ones who possess any real talent are quietly helping others in the background, not feeling the need to post inane 'songs' that they have written, while everybody gets lost in the deluge of thinking up even greater superlatives to describe their 'oneness' with the 'message'. Now, apropos compassion/honesty: Typical Mudcat subject matter at the minute, unfortunately. Anal-yze that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Crowhugger Date: 30 Mar 00 - 09:30 PM If I'm stuck, I ask myself what decision will I look back upon with contentment five years from now? The answer is what I do/don't do... |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: TTCM (retired) Date: 30 Mar 00 - 10:14 PM Re: ''Another Conscience's Posting'' E X A C T L Y. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 10:16 PM That'd be XLIX.......The rest of it ain't worth analyzing as its all been said before. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Gunnery Sergeant Raul B Jones Date: 30 Mar 00 - 11:39 PM Relax, have a homebrew. It's not that important. The truth is, I'm hungry. And being compassionate toward my less spiritually inclined physical self, I'm gonna go get something to eat. I will probably hum a folk song while I chew. See? It's two sides of the same coin. When you journal writing pseudo intellectuals are done beating each other up, Come on over for ribs and horseshoes. Guitar players welcome |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 00 - 11:50 PM Right on, Sarge...I'm fer that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Jeri Date: 31 Mar 00 - 09:28 AM Beanster, do you mean Grover's Mill? "Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We are ecstatic to announce that Mudcat is now being operated by NMPA, otherwise known as the "Nasty Martian Political Agency." We are finished screwing around with your little database, and have decided to go straight for your creative impulses. We will endeavor to subtly control your minds until you do nothing but discuss information without emotion. We will decimate any feeling of community fostered by the sharing of feelings and opinions not related to actual facts. We have appointed individuals to ensure this plan is implemented. Currently, they may be identified by the appearance of their posts. The Martian to English translator invariably converts the writing to odd fonts and font sizes, but we're working to overcome this. It should be noted that if they fail to supress non-factual discussion, they have been directed to disrupt communication by focusing attention on themselves. Er...whoops - wrong aliens...
We are Jeri |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: MMario Date: 31 Mar 00 - 09:36 AM Jeri, that's hysterical.
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Jeri Date: 31 Mar 00 - 09:49 AM Re the actual subject of this thread - it's not black an white/right or wrong. Each instance must be considered on its own. I don't believe in lying, but sometimes I don't say anything if the truth serves no purpose, or if it will make things worse. You have to decide if you're simply getting something off your chest, or whether the other person needs/wants to know. You also have to consider whether you don't want to tell the truth because it's uncomfortable for you. Sometimes trust involves a willingness to be uncomfortable at times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Mar 00 - 09:52 AM TTCM-- Re: "The way to make us go away is..." Wherever did you get the idea anyone wants you to go away???? There may be one or two, but look how many of us are right here talking with you! Do you really think mere ego wold be enough to keep us engaged in communication with you? Have you considered other possible motives that may even be (I say with doubt you will hear me)-- POSITIVE?!?!? Maybe the problem is that so many DID go away, and you miss them so bad it hurts. I'm sorry they went away! I wish they would come back! They can start all the threads they like and say whatever is on their minds! It isn't fair to blame people HERE for what others who left WON"T do. Are you their conscience too??? Have you asked them to come back and resume their rightful place here? Have you gotten close enough to them so they might listen and take heart, or courage, or humility, or whatever they lacked sufficiently to stay? Maybe they threw out the baby with the bathwater, while disagreeing on which was which. Why don't you go sign them all back up. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Amos Date: 31 Mar 00 - 10:08 AM SUFFERING
I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion, and elimination of ignorance, selfishness, and greed. Dalai Lama, 1989 Nobel Prize Speech
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Jeri Date: 31 Mar 00 - 10:25 AM Whoops. We apologize. We meant to post our message in the April 1 thread. We need more coffee...now who's turn is it to make some? Jeri, you get the gounds and Jeri can pour the water and... |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Jeri Date: 31 Mar 00 - 10:28 AM Whoops. We apologize. We meant to post our message in the April 1 thread. We need more coffee...now who's turn is it to make some? Jeri, you get the gounds and Jeri can pour the water and... Jeri Le clicque, c'est chique |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: catspaw49 Date: 31 Mar 00 - 10:38 AM Jeri, you are a true gem. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Rick Fielding Date: 31 Mar 00 - 11:12 AM I tried to be a clique but I couldn't afford my own membership dues. You can find me "Up on Clipple Clique". Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: GUEST,Neil Lowe Date: 31 Mar 00 - 11:13 AM All existence is Suffering. The cause of Suffering is Desire. To eliminate Suffering, eliminate Desire. --basic tenets of Buddhism |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: TTCM (retired) Date: 31 Mar 00 - 11:22 AM (a) As another so aptly mentioned previously in this thread, ''imitation is the sincerest form of flattery''. (b) We have no quarrel with you Jeri. But we have heard your fiddle playing. If you would like our critique of your talents, then continue to engage us in the manner you've chosen. TTCM --the other clique on Mudcat-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Bert Date: 31 Mar 00 - 11:32 AM Oh what a wonderful honest posting. Don't you just love it when someone takes an anonymous dig at a friend. You want honesty TTCM - You're a gutless shithead. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Ebbie Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:02 PM Your mission is laudable, Jeri, et al. But how will we know you when we see you? How many are you? Do you dress differently? |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Bert Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:10 PM So you're "Up the clique without a paddle" eh Rick;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Little Neophyte Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:15 PM Bert, from what I hear Rick uses his banjo as a paddle. LN |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Bert Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:23 PM How does that saying go? "Pas d'elle yieux Rhone que nous" |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: katlaughing Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:24 PM For the clique to end all cliques,CLIQUE HERE!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Jeri Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:44 PM Ebbie, you will know members of my clique because they all look and dress just like me. They also agree with everything I say - it's a requirement. Bert, regardless of TTCM's true identity, it's a very sad, small person who can't deal with the world when it doesn't operate according to their standards. Trust me, I find it damned near impossible to feel insulted or even angry at the words of an anonymous, desperate ("me, me, me - listen to ME. I can't think of anything to say about what you actually wrote, so I'm going to try to piss you off by talking nasty about your fiddle playing!") individual. Li'l Neo - banjos don't float, do they? Hmmm... TTCM, I have consulted with the select members of my clique, and they have informed me that: a) We don't give the nether regions of a bald-tailed rodent what you think of our playing, because we don't have delusions of adequacy. We also have no respect for cowards who hide behind a cloak of anonymity to harrass people in order to attempt to assert their will.. b) We find it amusing that you have chosed to reply with the offer of a personal critique, however, we are gratified to have provoked a response. We feel special. We suspect that your own concience has given up and gone out for a beer. c) I suggest you reply by starting a separate thread. Otherwise, another concience may intervene and point out that our combined cliques are raising the BS level to a new high. Please forgive us for assuming some of the glory, as your clique is responsible for most of it. Jeri, (Our clique has more fonts than yours - nyah, nyah) Now, go exert negative pressure on an avian ovum. I think it's a good time to shut up, because I'm only giving attention to someone who craves it. If anyone feels the need to defend me, you needn't - not unless you feel TTCM needs more attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Bert Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:52 PM ...they all look and dress just like me... Aw Jeri, and I thought "I" was one of your clique? |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Little Neophyte Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:59 PM Ernie, I tried to use the translate blue clicky, but it did not work. My grade 10 French teacher politely suggested I drop the course and take another credit in something else. So how does that saying go in English? Jeri, I figure if Rick roped his banjo to the boat it would be safe and he would have something to play at night around the campfire. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: MMario Date: 31 Mar 00 - 01:01 PM bert..."i" is part of her cl"i"que. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: MK Date: 31 Mar 00 - 01:36 PM I've been following this thread and really trying to steer clear of ALL of it. But, Jeri, by going to the lengths that you have, you have clearly played right into TTCM's hands. Do you not see that? Nothing, is accomplished by your posts pertaining to he/she/it, and only adds more fuel to their ''collective fire'' at least the way I see it anyway. If you all feel so strongly towards this TTCM, and since he/she/it has decided to invoke membership, why not send private flames or messages of condolensces, etc...directly to the entity? |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Rick Fielding Date: 31 Mar 00 - 01:48 PM Perhaps this isn't the thread to talk about things other than "compassion, honesty, cliques, or my envy at folks like Jeri who can colour up postings with the push of a button" but since she's here....Jeri, I'll be making my professional fiddle debut (thanks to your encouragement..AND YOUR FIDDLE(!!) three days after I get back from Connecticut. Not being anyone's fool, I've hired super Maritime fiddler Jamie Snyder to be my back-up guy, and since I'm paying him well (and we're old friends) he promises not to laugh when I join him in duets of: "Soldier's Joy, Bonaparte's Retreat, Old Plank Road, House of David Blues, and two original pieces...one entitled "Jeri's Waltz. I shall report on the ramifications. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: Bert Date: 31 Mar 00 - 01:49 PM Little Neo, you have to say it out loud, or better yet get someone else to say it. Michael K, naw we're just having fun with she/he/it (say that quickly and it becomes sheeeit). Bert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: compassion or honesty From: katlaughing Date: 31 Mar 00 - 02:06 PM There comes a time, Michael K. when the majority does need to be vocal about things. Goodonya, Jeri! Congrats, Rick! |