BS: lost forever

Subject: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:36 PM

This is a pretty bright group of people, and, I'm wondering what you all consider the greatest loss of all time. My vote goes to the library at Alexandria Egypt. If we can keep it on an intellectual level please, the breakup of the Beatles is not a loss to some of us....

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Bert
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:41 PM

The untimely death of Archimedes has got to be high up there. He was so prolific one has to wonder what he would have achieved had he not been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:41 PM

The Garden of Eden

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: GUEST,Deborah
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:41 PM

I consider the greatest loss of all time to be my grandparents and six million other Jews in the Holocaust.

Deborah

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Bert
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:52 PM

Jon,
Have you read 'Looking for Dilmun' by Geoffrey Bibby?

Deb, you're right there. So many grandparents were lost in WWII.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:55 PM

Kendall,
I just saw a History Channel program on the Library at Alexandria. Some scientist claimed that it set back mankind's development by hundreds of years. Imagine: the Civil War could have been atomic. Or maybe, a slower moving society might have been able able to use the power more efficiently/productively.

But if we are being philosophical, my vote would go to the loss of knowledge of our earliest ancestors. If we could each trace our roots back to a single pair of great-great-ever so great grandparents, maybe we could all live as one big happy family. Maybe Jon's Garden of Eden gets my vote after all.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Cobble
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM

the loss of a none nuclear world. Cobble's SO.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 03:32 PM

I'm going to go with Sinsull on the loss of ancient knowledge. So much that the Egyptians knew was considered witchcraft and heresy in the Dark Ages, especially with regard to medicine and dentistry.

I'm also going to vote for Mozart.

Two years ago several tornadoes swept through the Nashville area. One of them downed several 100+ year-old trees at the Hermitage, the home of Andrew Jackson. If you have ever been there, you know how majestic the tree-lined driveway was. No more. Some of those trees had been planted by Jackson himself. While they are being replanted, it's not quite the same. The first time I visited there after the storm, I just stood there and cried. (The Gibson Guitar company took some of the wood and made some very collectible "Old Hickory" guitars.)

On a personal level, I lost my father last week to diabetes complications. He was 68 and had a full life but that doesn't make it any easier. Also, last year, the wife of a dear friend was killed in an auto accident. She was 4 months pregnant with their second child. Kathy was one of the sweetest, most special people on the Earth. I miss her still today, because it seemed like there was so much left for her to accomplish.

But like the Good Book says, to everything there is a season.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 03:36 PM

That moment in the lives of many when they cease to be amazed may be the greatest tragedy. Its at the precise moment when imagination stops and the acceptance of the common place becomes,... ah, common place. Imagine the great minds, who for want of stimulation , that have stop searching and questing. Maybe its is the great minds that have been so overcome by personal tragedy, that have been beaten into submission by "just one more thing" and haven't had the power to excell.

This happens daily in our schools, work places, and homes. It also must have happened down through history. Sometime in the past, a great mind must have passed away unnoticed and unachieved. And allowing such to continue will be a greater tragedy and loss.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 04:26 PM

When Leeds United lost 2-3 to struggling Colchester United in the FA Cup in 1973.

That was reckoned to be the greatest loss of all time, at the time.

I was there!

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: JR
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 04:34 PM

innocense & civlity... whenever that was

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Bert
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 04:39 PM

the game of five stones or gobs

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 04:45 PM

Kim C, I'm sorry about your father.

I think that next to the loss of the environment, the loss of our clean air and water, the loss of the bio-diversity that helps keep the web of life operating smoothly, all other losses pale in comparison. It's a slippery slope we're going down.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM

No Bert but I think I will see if I can get a copy from the Library and have a read.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 06:44 PM

...........One gray night it happened, Jackie Paper came no more....

Yeah, it ties with some other's thoughts above, but the loss of childhood with its innocent wonderment of small things made great. The thrill and adventure of the first time for all those things a child cannot wait to do, and once done, can never be held in awe again. So many joys, so many woes..........but all amazing, exciting, and new. Its so hard when you are older to recapture that feeling on any level.

Certainly the moments come. You look at a person and instantly realize that somehow this is the person you will spend the rest of your life with. You hold the tiny, bundled package that will share your home and your name. You awaken from a life threatening experience and realize you're alive. But nothing can replace all those wonderful and awe-inspiring events of childhood.

Sadly, our children are forced to grow more quickly today. For some, Puff doesn't even put in an appearance.

KIM....I too am sorry to hear your news and my best thoughts are with you.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lena
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 09:45 PM

As an italian band pointed out,the Library in sarajevo is a recent huge loss that still makes me cry.Another loss you may not have heard of,is the georgolfili library in Florence .it was a domestic accident.Some bastards made a bomb explode in the middle of the ancient area in Florence,behind the Uffizi gallery,killing five people and destroying the most beautiful gathering of medieval rural knowledge(agricultural tratises,etc...).Beside the fact that paintings in the Gallery went damaged,that architectural problems followed(you can't open a widow anymore there because it might explode and they're too ancient and beautiful to loose them...)all around...

And a greater damage was the feelings following.One night the most scary,loud,tearing sound blasts waking you up.(and bombs have that sound that seems to explode in your head and never get away...)and afterwards there is a lot of pain,fear,and anger-someone ,who knows why,had been able to do that,to destroy a common most precious heritage and to kill two little girls and their family......it takes away your trust in human beings.That is a lost.and it was May,when nature makes you believe everything is happy and beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 09:51 PM

Murdoch's head.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 09:53 PM

When I was about 7 or 8 years old I inadvertantly left my baseball glove in Chicago's Lincoln park. Mom wouldn't let me hear the end of it. I was chastised and yelled at for a day and a half before my anger spilled over and I yelled, "Well, at least I never lost anything alive !" Everyone went nuts and wanted to know what I was talking about. When my mother was yonger, before I'd been born, she had, as I was always told, "LOST A CHILD." My outburst was a direct result of a young and clueless youth's evaluation of an event that was actually incomprehensible to him/me.

conclusion:

It's all relative.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 09:54 PM

Habitat destruction. Environmental degradation. Pollution of air, soil, water, ground water, Arctic and Antarctic, rain forest,

Slippery slope indeed, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 11:26 PM

Good thread Kendall...makes ya think.

on a personal note, the loss of my dad when I was 18 still hurts. I would have liked him to know that I turned out not to be a total fuck-up...'cause that's the direction I was heading when he died.

I'd certainly put Alexandria high on the list. For me though it's trains. I watched them endlessly as a kid, but never had the guts to hop a freight. Wish I had.

Sailing ships as well. In Mystic Ct. I spent a couple of nights on an old whaler...and I'm convinced that had I lived a hundred and fifty years ago, I would have spent my life at sea.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Ely
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 01:21 AM

In general? The environment. All those species of plants that might have cured diseases . . .

Personally? My grandparents/relatives. My mother's parents died before I was born (my grandmother when my mom was 22, my grandfather just a week before I came along--I was born in New Jersey because my parents were there for his funeral and I arrived early). My father's father had Parkinson's disease and died when I was 10--he'd been sick for a long time and by the time I was old enough not to be afraid of it, he was so far gone he couldn't talk or get around well. My father's mother never got along with my mother and she now is in the last stages of Alzheimer's. We haven't lived close to either set of in-laws since I was 5. My mother has all kinds of neat aunts and uncles and cousins that I barely know. I remember my brother once cried because he was so angry that he hadn't been able to grow up with these people since we lived halfway across the country.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 01:57 AM

Art, that's priceless!

What I fear most is the needless losses caused by stupidity. The cry of Jobs First! is insane- first you find a place to live and Earth is our place to live. The same with the stupidity of reciting- as we did in the fifties- Better Dead than Red. What arrant nonsense. No one has the right to let others die because of one's own political belief- Strategic capitulation buys time- and in time the wheel will turn. If you have turned the earth into toxic cinders, there will never be time.

But I remain optimistic that we'll learn just enough as we go that we make progress in reclaiming and remedying these harmful things. There is real hope- if only we are able to reach and teach the young... Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mickey191
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 01:58 AM

Civility,erudition,manners,respect for language - I fear they are lost and gone forever. God help us, because I think America is the leading proponent of this dumbing down attitude which so many seem to have adopted.

Mickey N.Y. Peace

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Giac
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 01:59 AM

The loss of homelands and lifestyles of indigenous peoples, and the encroachment upon the lands of those still trying to hang in there.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 02:47 AM

Lost forever for me is the ability to let my child play in the front yard, go to the corner shop alone for sweeties or walk to school (a 3 min walk) unattended.

I walked for miles when I was little, my brother had a paper round and he'd leave me in the playpark whilst he did the long bit of the village, sometimes it took him nearly an hour. I was about 5, and spent hours alone, away from my house.

Rapists and Paedophiles hadn't been heard of, abduction was something that happened to important people, and death was what happened to old people.

My one biggest fear for my child is no longer her future, her school, her first boyfriend, or any serious injury or illness, it's whether I will see her at the end of the block when she runs off around the corner.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: sledge
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 03:00 AM

All the great forests that are getting smaller or are on the verge of disappearing.

I also wonder about those lost books purged by the Catholic church, Cathar, Aztec Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: campfire
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 05:35 PM

Amen, Liz the Squeak.

I would also add as a loss, here in these (Middle Class) United States, anyway, the loss of the ability of a single income to support a family. Most children have two working parents these days (if they have two parents, but that's another subject). The importance (IMHO) to have a parent at home when a child comes home from school, and on days when there is no school, etc. seems to now be a luxury few families can afford. Those that do have to give up other things (like music lessons and computers) that the other children take for granted.

Not to rag on Day Care, but how can day care teach each child the values his/her own family follows? I'm sure (I hope!) day care providers care about the children in their charge and do their best, but can every scraped knee get "healed" with a kiss when there are 10 (or more) other children clamoring for attention? Do the children that grow up in Day Care have childhood memories of days in the park with Mom, or a train ride to Chicago to see Grandma?

Give me back the days when one parent (either gender) could support the family, and one parent could be...A PARENT!

campfire

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 06:38 PM

Whales. Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of great, beautiful, powerful, sapient masters of the deep, harassed to destruction for the sake of body parts.

Another loss, at least in many parts of the West, I think, is a sense of relating to the actual world -- with far places unexplored, and peoples creating cultures of many rhythms and ways of being human. The changes of the last fifty years have left me (perhaps this is just a profoundly reisted maturity speaking) bereft of that sense and left with the obligation to relate instead to corporations, products, and culturally depraved mass markets who stumble and stampede across existance like psychotic bisons being herded over a cliff by beer-drinking market jocks in SUVs.


A

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Escamillo
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 02:13 AM

The destruction of American (North, Middle and South) native cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:16 AM

The Moon ... or rather, the spirit and mystery of the moon. Don't misunderstand: I'm all in favor of exploration. I was thrilled by the entire Mercury, Gemini, Apollo sequence of flights, the Apollo 11 moon landing, and all of the terrific 'spin offs' in science, medicine, technology and so on. But there was a trade off as well.

How long has the moon sailed our night skies as the symbol of unattainable beauty? With the arrival of Neil Armstrong in July, 1969, the moon changed. Vanished is the mystery of the moon, and nothing has replaced it.

== Johnny in Oklahoma City

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 08:08 AM

If Spartacus had led his rebels out of Italy, instead of deciding to attack Rome, then the Romans might have decided to use slaves less and machinery more. They weren't far from steam engines. And that might have saved Alexandria, and could have changed the church's attitude to slavery and women.....idiot. Had this discussion yesterday after the film.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 09:22 AM

How about the loss of all those "heathen" writings of the Myans? and the tablets of the natives of Easter Island? all burned by Catholic missionaries.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 01:02 PM

What about all the Catholic priests & nuns who were butchered in Panama, along with their Panamania followers, and the destruction of all their writings and records, by English pirate Henry Morgan, who did it because "it was fun."

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Bert
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 01:17 PM

The original lyrics from all those songs that were Bowdlerized by prudish collectors.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Ferrara
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:10 PM

Not the greatest loss, because all the worst losses I know of have been mentioned above. But one I sometimes feel really sad about: The destruction of J.M.W. Turner's pornographic, er, I mean erotic, drawings and watercolors by his widow. He had done hundreds of 'em and only a few survive. Several other fine collections of erotica have also been burned by offended widows.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 08:14 PM

Mbo..your point is well taken. I dont approve of murder in ANY form. However, the writings of the natives of Easter Island for instance, can never be replaced because all traces of their civilization have been destroyed, and, their language has also been wiped out totally. This is not true of the priests and nuns in Panama.They were wiped out, but, their language is still around. The records of Columbus are also still around, but, he does not go into great detail about how he and his men enslaved infected and worked to death all those 100 thousand indian slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: GUEST,Indigo
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 06:20 AM

Atlantis, ------- and 'Spaw said the rest beautifully.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Grab
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 10:17 AM

Of all time? Does this include all the numerous mass extinctions prior to mammalian ascendance? Or are we talking a purely human history?

Given that Rome was a brutal militaristic society, who thought murder and death of those socially inferior to oneself was insignificant, I don't consider their failure to achieve mechanisation to be a great loss.

Even with the loss of the Library, though, most of the knowledge of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Carthaginians, etc was lost, destroyed, or concealed by the Catholic Church (mostly deliberately) for over a millenium. The reign of religious literalism over that time (and it's coming back, folks!) which slapped down anyone with intellect or with ideas contrary to the Church's doctine was surely terrible.

Anyone care to count the TV as a loss? Whilst we've gained the ability to see the rest of the world, and we've gained greatly in documentaries, satire, news, etc, we've lost politics to the soundbite, we've lost active thought to empty viewing, and we've lost individual choice to advertising.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 05:44 PM

The point about the Romans, if Spartacus had succeeded, was that they would have had to rethink their society very deeply, and not base it on slavery, which would have changed the violent basis somewhat. Possibly. And could have prevented Roman priests from destroying the Druidic Ogham libraries in Ireland, and the Thomasine church's scriptures in India. Alternatively, Rome would have become even worse, and failed sooner.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: bflat
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 05:59 PM

Sobriety......lost lives and relationships followed.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 06:38 PM

Plenty to think about here!

Liz, I can't comment on rape, but you're wrong about paedaphiles. The incidence of child attacks/murder etc has not significantly changed over the years. We have just become more aware of the problem. You're still more likely to get killed by a piece of office furniture than lose a kid that way. So if you're going to worry about that risk you need to think twice about ever putting a child in a car.
BR>Sorry to lower the tone (again) but I'm afraid Skipjack's right out of order with that frivolous contribution above. What about Leeds losing to Chelsea - Chelsea - in the '68 semi-final at Aston Villa? Lorimer equalised from a freekick in the closing minutes, but the kick had to be retaken because Chelsea players had been too close to the ball. Robbed or what?

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 08:36 PM

My virginity...........then again..........

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 08:44 PM

The Sam Maguire for Armagh this year!

Boo hoo.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 08:48 PM

I would appreciate it if we could keep this on a higher level than who won or lost some silly ass ball kicking thing..

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 08:50 PM

What you want and what you get are two different things kendall.

You asked the question, remember.

Do you want to answer it for us as well?

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 08:53 PM

OK Kendall, completely different line of thought. I was just talking to Jeri and she was describing the Fox Hollow Festival which sounded to me like a sort of magical event in a fantastic venue - I would have liked to have been there but apparently there will never be another one. I'm not sure what level you are aiming at but do festivals that are dead and gone meet your criteria?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 08:55 PM

Although I was born in Dublin, my Dad was brought up in Tralee, which makes my second team Kerry.

With this in mind, it seems my reluctant duty to inform Brendy that Armagh did not lose the Sam Maguire, Kerry took it. Whats more, they're not giving it back!

Nya-ha

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:17 PM

Sssssh, Lox. kendall wants us to keep this high brow, but:

Next Year!!!

Ok, then. How about the Lisdoonvarna Folk Festival? Non-commercial Fleadhanna Cheóil? George Jr.'s credibility, now that those remarks were broadcast all over the world?

Lots of things, really!

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:18 PM

Mother Teresa, though I believe the love she spread throughout the world continues to live, and will never die.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:22 PM

Jon - thanks for the cue on Fox Hollow.

More than a loss of a festival, it was a loss of innocent wonder and belonging inspired by the festival.

Have you ever felt something like magic? The concerts were outstanding, but what I remember most was the night. Impromptu dancing on the lawn, with the grass under the trees lit by moonlight and people flickering in and out of it like faeries. Singing in a darkened campsite, where you couldn't see the people standing near you, but it didn't matter anyway because within the song, there was no boundary between them and you. Soft rain falling through tall fir trees, and a smell of pine and hemlock. I, and probably everyone else, felt like we belonged there, in the forest at night, with the music everywhere and everyone in love with it.

There have been many greater losses to the world. This one isn't the world's - it's mine. Perhaps the world's greatest loss really is the loss of innocence. If everyone were in a situation where they were able to hang onto that feeling for their whole lives, where would we be now...

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:30 PM

Brendy, I thought I made it clear at the start what I was wondering about. I dont see how you can put some silly game on the same level as the loss of the library at Alexander. So, we seem to have run out of important things, so, go ahead with the silly stuff if thats the best you can do.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Midchuck
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:33 PM

Fionn said:

"Plenty to think about here!

Liz, I can't comment on rape, but you're wrong about paedaphiles. The incidence of child attacks/murder etc has not significantly changed over the years. We have just become more aware of the problem..."

Very good point! A lot of the darker aspects of our society are no more or less around than they have been for a long time; people are just more aware of them because it's hard to sweep anything under the rug in the "information age."

John Kennedy's sexual exploits while in the White House make Clinton's look insignificant...but they were kept under cover at the time, and Kennedy's still the White Knight of Camelot and Clinton is just a dirty old man...

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:49 PM

Kendall. Don't for God's sake ever get the impression that it is a silly ass ball kicking thing game!

If you wanted to have a go at 'thread drifters', you should have started a bit further up the list.

When you start a BS thread, kendall, I'm afraid you have to take what's posted. We all have to live with that.

You're no different.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 10:37 PM

Hi folks!

The greatest loss to me
ain't the greatest loss to you
and when you ask around
you'll find that's nearly always true

but the greatest loss to you
ain't the greatest loss to me
so if you don't like mine
let it be, let it be

A bit crap I know, but I made it up just now.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 04:26 AM

It's not kreplachs, it's good.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:59 AM

I have never understood spectator sports. When I was a boy I loved baseball. That is, I loved to PLAY baseball..Then, I grew up.. I now have brothers who sit all afternoon on sundays watching a bunch of high morons go round and round for 4 or 5 hours. Explain it will ya? Grown men with stickers on their cars of a little brat pissing on Ford logos, or Chevvy logos. On top of that, they think I'm pedantic because I read something other than GUNS & AMMO or Sports Afield. It's hard to discuss the W.T.O. with someone whos interest does not go beyond which bunch of glandular cases won or lost some silly ass ball kicking/throwing/hitting thing.I have an open mind about almost everything, so, if you can explain it, I'd appreciate it. If you cant, well, that should tell you something...

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:29 AM

your one true love...and the loss of dreams and hope.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:20 AM

now, thats more like it..a serious loss.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:18 AM

Kendall.

I would like to take this opportunity to direct you towards a song called "Joxer goes to Stuttgart" by Christy Moore.

Team games like football, rugby, Gaelic football and Hurling are deeply entrenched in British and Irish culture. I don't know to what extent this is true of sports in American culture, having never been there, but I have an impression that there is a slightly different approach in the States.

In England in particular, traditional culture (as we so romantically like to call it) was stamped out by the industrial revolution.

People were forced from the countryside into cities to work for the greater glory of industry.

The result was that communities had to find another way of reaffirming their identity.

Football matches were just such a vehicle for this purpose.

Football has a history in Britain an Ireland, and in fact everywhere else in the world apart from America, of uniting communities and countries in celebration of themselves. (The world cup is the single most popular sporting event on the planet)

There is nowhere in the world outside America where people do not know who Manchester United are. If you don't believe this then get on a plane and find out for yourself.

Passion for football is intense in every country from India (check out their olympic team in the 50's) to Korea, to Russia, to Brazil, to Argentina to South Africa to Libya to Italy, Spain, Portugal .... blah .... blah ... etc.

6,000,000,000 people (for it is not just men who get excited at football matches) understand what I am talking about. Please don't pretend that you are somehow more cultured because you are interested in the loss of a library that may or may not have had some interesting knowledge contained within it.

To deny you are human is the first mistake of humanity.

lox

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Kim C
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:19 AM

Over the holiday weekend I took a drive down the Natchez Trace, from Nashville to Hohenwald, where Meriwether Lewis's grave is. It was very refreshing. Along the Trace there are no condos, no commercial developments, no gas stations, no ATMs, and at one point my cell phone (which Mister insisted I take with me since I was alone) read No Service. And the speed limit is only 40 or 50, depending on where you are. So you can't drive like a maniac along the Trace (and wouldn't want to - it's curvy and not conducive to such).

Many of these unspoiled natural areas have been lost to what some call "progress," but my faith in humanity was somewhat renewed by this solo excursion.

But I started thinking about Lewis & Clark, and their fantastic journey, and wondered how many kids today know anything about the Corps of Discovery and what they did. Meriwether Lewis was under 30 years of age at the time, and a mere 35 when he died. What other amazing things could he have accomplished?

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:37 PM

I'm not claiming to be "more cultured" I'm asking for an explanation. What you just said helps. How many case of madness have we seen where one bunch of wackos attacks another because some sport playes won or lost? Right here recently, one man beat to death another man because they had an argument over a hockey game. If this is not testosterone poisoning, I'd like to know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:42 PM

Salman Rushdie had a price put on his head just for writing a book that some people didn't like. As far as I know, no sports figures have been selected as targets of assasination.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 01:11 PM

What about that Columbian (?) football player, Meebs. It happens, alright.

But the point Lox makes, and that I do, in different words, is that what's important to one, may not necessarily be important to someone else. Or at least not as important.

All I said was that I was disappointed Armagh failed to win their first ever All Ireland; I may not be around for the next time they get the opportunity, and kendall accuses me of being a brainless football hooligan on the top of that. Sorry, man. Too anal-retentive for my liking, I'm afraid.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 01:17 PM

Thanks, Brend, didn't know that. BTW is Manchester United "The Blues"?

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 01:21 PM

Manchester City, I think, Meeb. Although there could well be another club with that name.

I don't follow foreign games too much, though.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 02:49 PM

I didn't accuse anyone of anything. Old Maine saying.."If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp."

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: annamill
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:06 PM

I don't know if it's age or just a sudden realization I've had. I don't think others have had it. I look around me at humans and each and everyone of them looks innocent. Because of that innocence, they wander around bewildered about how it should be! Going about trying to deal. They don't even know they're innocent.

I work in NY and ride the busses, trains, subways. I've taken to watching peoples eyes. The windows of the soul. I see a lot pain. People get lied to all their lives about how it should be. Life I mean. How can you go through life and not be disappointed?

I see old people totally bewildered. Wandering around trying to deal with daily life. Scared!

I see young beautiful people with eyes filled with anger, fear, bewilderment. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO BE?? What do I have to do to be happy??? How can I succeed when everything they've told me is a lie?? NO ONE CARES ABOUT ME!!

I see business people who think they're savvy hanging on to the straps with hurt in their eyes. Im doing what they say to do. WHY AREN"T I HAPPY??? I'm following the rules, damn it. Why am I struggling?

What do I miss most in our civilization?? Love and understanding!

It makes me want to hide away sometimes. I can see the innocence. Can't anyone else??

Love, annamil

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:52 PM

Well you seem to be yelping a lot, kendall.

However, I fail to see why you should equate one's love of one's National game, with wackos running around your neck of the woods with testosterone poisoning.

After all, you wouldn't have mentioned sport related violence, had I not mentioned sport, would you?; wanting, as you were, to keep this discussion about losses that you approve of.

Ridicule my favourite game, if you want. Hate all sport, if you must, but don't assume the high moral ground, and claim to hold the monopoly on what is or is not valuable to a person, and judge it's loss to them by your own standards.

A thread entitled 'Hypocrisy and the Folk Musician', might prove interesting, don't you think?

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:01 PM

On a dead mans door, you can knock forever.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:06 PM

Beethoven's lost penny.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:06 PM

Youi took the words right off of my keyboard, kendall

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:08 PM

OK look, I am not knocking your national game, but, lets face it it is a GAME!!! hardly on a par with all the knowledge of the known world. If you want to start a sport thread, go ahead and I wont bother you with real knowledge, ok?

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:10 PM

annamill- Like deer in headlights.

Kendall, most of the testosterone I see in threads here in the mudcat (and most of the fighting) comes from you and a small handful of others. Mickey191 mentioned on this very thread the loss of civility and manners. I was one hundred percent behind you until you started being rude to people. I vote for civility.

Respectfully,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:10 PM

Where have you gone, Joe Dimaggio? The nation turns it's lonely eyes to you...woo woo woo...what's that you say, Mrs.Robinson? Joltin' Joe has left and gone away...

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:13 PM

Loss....what about this?

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:13 PM

I don't want to start a sport thread, man.

I only wish to have the right to judge my losses the way I want. Had you 'let' me have that right, we could be talking about things that require real knowledge at this moment in time; i.e. things that you deem important.

I'm sure I could keep up with you. You're not really all that difficult to follow.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:29 PM

CarolC - Kendall's not rude - he's from Maine. They have a tendency to say things up there, sometimes with a twinkle in their eye, which come off as rude without the accent and the ability to see the twinkle.

I'm not sure if he's irritated or just taking the piss at this point. (I'll know if I end up receiving a comment like "Throwing a life preserver at a duck makes you look stupid and the confuses the duck.")

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:40 PM

Well Carol, we all have an excuse. Brendy's Irish, Kendall's a crusty old sea captain, and I'm red headed. God help us if we get an old redheaded Irish crusty sea captain! You'll hear us bickering from 10 blocks away! **BG**

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: guinnesschik
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:00 PM

I know that like everything else around here, I join this thread a bit late, but I have to say that the greatest loss we've experienced in recent times is the loss of a strong family unit.

Both of my daughters go to school with children who cannot read, have no social graces, lack civility and respect for others, and have no concept of right and wrong.

Double income families don't necessarily make for "bad" kids, it's the parents' self-centeredness. Both my husband and I worked for years (now we're self-employed), and our kids are happy, healthy, literate AND polite. We took the extra effort to provide consistency, strength, and support to our children. Too many adults are too lazy to give their children what they really need.

I'm a first-wave "Gen-X" adult, and my generation is so selfish and immature that I fear for all our children.

Sorry for the loss of strong family units and very, very fearful of our future.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:20 PM

I have never started a fight, but, I have finished a few. If I have been rude, it was not intentional. Brendy, if I have insulted you, I apologize. The thread I started didnt go the way I wanted it to thats all. Thanks for your support Jeri, you know me, they dont. I'm a natural born agitator. Finally, Carol, a good shot of testosterone at my age is not to be sniffed at!! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:24 PM

Apologies from me too, kendall. I meant no harm by posting to this thread.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:05 PM

...I wish I could bring up the psyche of primitive humans...all of stone age history is lost to us or we can only guess at how early humans thought...that might explain the interest in football! Kendall is never rude, just sure of himself!!

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:07 PM

Alright, then.

Now kiss and make up *BG*

Warmest regards,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:12 PM

I'm not about to kiss Brendy (its that testosterone thing again) and, I'm sure he will agree. lol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:15 PM

harpgirl, it's frequently hard to tell the difference. Not just in kendall, but in anyone who is "sure of him or herself". That's what we need civility for. That's how we keep from turning this beautiful website into a toxic waste dump.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:19 PM

So, be reasonable...do it MY way!!

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:27 PM

Yes, Carol. Perhaps it might be better if you asked if someone intended to be rude rather than assume it!! Regards! harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:45 PM

Another great philosophical advancement that we have lost to the sound bite is the old standby---the bumper sticker.

Abby, I just tried to call you and was electronically told that you are indisposed.(Soooooo, say hi to K.)

All the great examples of loss here truly does seem to show pretty graphically just how relative the concept can be to us all. I suspect it's a matter of whose ox is being gored---and what your paricular ox actually is when your rose colored blinders have been removed.

My ox is trad folk music, but I bet, from my many pronouncements here, you already knew that ! (And so many mediocre singer/songwriters have, in recent years, grown huge horns and run amok. Where are the matadors when we really need them? Arise, o ghost of Manolete and Juan Belmonte and Joselito and stand with me now ! Fat chance. ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:50 PM

have you loaded ICQ art???? oh boy!!! I hope so, good guess about K

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:57 PM

Aw, Art! Please don't say that traditional folk music is lost forever! As long as there are folks like you, it will never die.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:12 PM

harpgirl, I appreciate your thoughts.

If it was I who had been spoken to in the way that came off as sounding rude, I think you are right that I should investigate instead of jumping to conclusions. I was not.

However, in light of some of the things that were said in some of the previous posts, I feel that my comments were not unreasonable.

Best wishes,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:42 PM

Good folks, Matt (Mbo) started a thread asking "what harmonica should a beginner use!?" I started to answer and it C-R-E-E-P-E-D into what should've been more properly posted here in this LOSS LEADER thread of Kendall's. If anyone wants to read it, please go there ! But then come back here. My treatise is more about Bush's inappropriate remarks today than it is about harmonicas -- and I am sorry for that. But it's about why turnabout is fair play and "what's good for the goose is good for getting your dander--er gander--up". Pardon my euphoria, please, but I just spent two days back on the Mississippi River with Carol and Chris and his wife Shannon anf Ace Trone and Chris Vallillo (fine picker and singer) and so many old river rat friends that I can't name 'em all. I'm so high from it that I can't sleep. All we lacked was Mr. Hartford being healthy enough that he felt up to being with us too. He might could use a word or a thought or a vibe or a prayer from us all right now.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:35 AM

(Just returning from the harmonica thread...)

So, Art, how do you really feel about George Dubya and the republicans?

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From:
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 02:16 AM

Kendal
I am sorry this thread didn't "go the way you wanted"
Are you surprised with this lot:-)
Signed, another stirrer
currently masquerading as nitwit

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 02:35 AM

On a human scale,I think no loss can ever compare to the Holocaust in Europe. How much promise was extinguished there? What Shakespeares,Platos,Einsteins were among those murdered in their childhoods?And what loss of innocence did Mankind suffer from that clinical expression of the worst side of its nature?

For my country,I think the greatest loss was in Abraham Lincoln's assassination.Having suffered through five years of slaughter,holding the union together with his strength of will and the brilliance of his words,this man of peace at last saw his country delivered to safety.How might we have healed had he been there as healer?What other work might he have been capable of?The shot that rang out in Ford's Theater that night changed the direction of this country,and denied Lincoln his legacy of Peace.

Perhaps the most intriguing loss is that of the Arc of the Covenant.Most scholars agree that it probably did exist,and its history is documented in the ancient history of other peoples of the near east as well as in the biblical accounts.For thousands of years it was produced by the Israelites in times of war and catastrophe to work its miracles on their behalf.If such a thing did exist,would it indeed manifest the Power of Heaven? Or was its power the result of a lost science known only to the ancients?

LEJ

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:23 AM

Regarding rudeness, we have a tendency, when we can't see or hear non-verbal clues, to fill in the blanks with motives and meanings, usually neither good nor accurate. A sarcastic comment by someone who's words we read a lot here will be put into context (oh, he/she's just being a smartass) whereas from someone we don't know, the words will automatically identify them as a nasty, sour old meany. Arguments usually only bug me when one or more people quit talking about the subject (probably because they're losing, or afraid of losing) and go straight for a character assault on their opponent.

Regarding the actual subject, all things pass. All the losses the world has suffered have made the world what it is today. This is not to say the world would not be a better place if some of the things (include people, animals, inanimate objects) were still around, or that some of the losses were not tragic and untimely. I still think the greatest loss is that of an idea, or an ideal. I agree with annamill.

Humans are social. Humans tend to care for weaker members of their group. Different groups once fought because one had something necessary for the other's survival. At some point in our history, it became unnecessary for any group of humans to kill another group for survival, but we've kept doing it for other reasons. I don't know if it's a loss something that was, or something that could have been. If humans had developed that feeling of social belonging to include rather than exclude, most of the losses listed above would have never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:33 AM

annamill...

Jimmy Carter had a word for it. He called it a "malaise."

Here in the U.S. we're supposed to be living in the best of times. The economy is booming, unemployment is down, etc etc etc. Yet, like you observed on the subway, a significant portion of people appear to be unhappy, discontented. And if you asked them and they were honest and open with themselves, they would probably tell you so. Jung and other noted psychologists observed it in about a third of their patients, enough to warrant its own label (which escapes me, but I'll look it up if you're interested) - a general apathy and lack of affectation, similar to but different from clinical depression. Why? What's missing?

Maybe these people no longer believe in anything. Like you said, they've been lied to so much and experienced so much disappointment there's a vacuum in their lives that they try to fill. Capitalism tries to plug that hole with advertisements whose not-so-subtle message is: happiness is just a major purchase away. But sooner or later, regardless of economic status, the realization hits that acquiring lots of things is not the path to contentment.

harpgirl mentioned the desire to know the psyche of primitive peoples. My uneducated guess is that a big chunk of those peoples' mental processes was devoted to meeting the basic needs and discovering the cultural advances that make affluence for a lamentably small portion of us possible today. In modern times those same needs of us lucky folk are met with relative ease, allowing us more leisure time to search for meaningful life interaction beyond mere survival.

An article I was reading suggested that generally the key to happiness was for each individual to discover his/her unique, creative talent and devote a significant portion of one's time to that talent. But what if each individual doesn't have a unique, creative talent? Is it considered common knowledge that everyone is good at something? Maybe that's an unrealistic expectation. Are there citizens whose talents don't extend beyond the realm of the ordinary, for whom it takes all the creativity they can muster to rise to the level of the daily grind? Perhaps they are the windowless souls you see on the trains and busses.

The late William Burroughs said the definition of a psychotic was someone who'd just figured out what was really going on.

Thanks, annamill, for your thoughts provoking my thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:59 AM

Jeri, you are a very wise lady.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 10:05 AM

Guest, could it be the simple lack of challenge? modern people such as us, dont have to struggle anymore. I dont remember the last time I had to bring down a mammoth with a rock, so, I'm bored. Football fans can take out their frustrations on each other, but, I have no such outlet, so, I post things that piss people off.ROTFLMAO!!

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:11 PM

That was a good thought as always Jeri.

Kendall, there are just so many things lost and tastes so widely varied that to try to equate them on any basis is futile. I saw something different in your thought as it applied to me. As I read the responses of others, I often thought, "Yeah, gee, there's that too." And even on subjects which I might not consider so great a loss, they can be an important and significant part of someone elses dreams.

You mention the equating of sports as not too relevant and I see your point. But I think there is another that works well for me in the sports area. Much great art has been lost, art in all forms. We think of music or paintings perhaps, but art takes many forms.....and one of those forms exist in sport. The ability of a human being to take some task as kicking a ball and to learn the mechanics and all to the point that the task, the simple act, becomes an art.

Almost 20 years ago, I stood at the exit of the last turn leading to the main straight at Watkins Glen watching an artist at work. He had no paints, no brushes, no guitars. He sat in the cockpit of an 800 horsepower Can-Am car and his name was Jackie Stewart. Lap after lap I watched that race and 30 other drivers negotiating this all important corner. They were all pros, they all did it far better than the average person could even dream about.........and then there was Stewart. He led that race from the beginning and never encountered traffic in the section of the track I was at, so he was able to set-up for the turn and the straight without encumbrance. Oh, he could pass all right....no problem there. He was better in traffic (and in the rain) than his fellow drivers. But here I had the chance to see something else.

If I had put a dime on the track and a two inch stripe on his left front tire, the stripe would have crossed the dime every time. It was perfection. His hand movements were frugal and very quick and he seemed to be relaxed and confident......and he was on the exact line all the time. Driving is learned. Sometimes its a sport, a task, a job. A very few have become absolute artists. Happily, Jackie retired before anything happened to prematurely end his life as it had for another artist, Jimmy Clark. To me, the loss to age or accident of these greats equals what many may feel about Casals, Renoir, or (select favorite).

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:29 PM

Perhaps, kendall. Maybe we're genetically predisposed to push against the envelope, as anyone who's tried to beat their personal best or build a better mousetrap would attest.

Maybe it has something to do with The Fall, of being evicted from the Garden Of Eden back at the beginning. There's a loss for ya, as Jon observed way up there. Exiled to the godless ghetto of the Universe, forced to live out from under the protective umbrella of God. And trying to scratch our way back into the Inner Sanctum.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:02 PM

Might I suggest that a HUGE loss in these modern flush times, in the U.S.A at least, is the loss of the EIGHT HOUR DAY !!! Labor fought for it so very hard and long and so many were beaten and bitten and died for it. The bomb went off at Chicago's HAY MARKET just to secure it "for us all?" ! How the hell, in the last decade or so, did we allow it to get away from us? Where is "time and a half" for overtime? Where is the right to decline overtime if we'd rather have the valuable free time with our families or whatever??

To me the decline began when Raegan busted the air traffic controllers union when they were on strike. It was a bunch of folks who were actually white-collar trying their hand at a blue-collar task---a serious strike. They didn't have the cajones for it. Raegan knew they were wimps and hit 'em hard. That victory gave him momentum to go after a real blue-collar giant union---the U.S. postal employees and their strike. Now bosses routinely ask people to work 16 hour days. What has happened to the value of time to relax --- time to enjoy the money they say everyone is now earning? I'm on disability now and am out of the loop. Yeah, money is out there, but when cars cost $30,000.00 how can anyone afford to drive --let alone buy a house. Mick or someone---please enlighten me what the hell's gone down here?

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: annamill
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:28 PM

Art, I may be off base here, but I think a lot of it has to do with foreign businesses coming in. I know in my industry (securities) many of the companies are foreign owned and they demand longer hours. When I went to work for First Boston, they told me I would be expected to put in a minimum of 10 hours a day and at least one weekend day. Being a consultant, it wasn't to bad, but I worked next to employees who were required to put in the same time. This is due to competition from foreign companies here in NY. The salaries are fantastic, but it's understood that this salary includes overtime. Plus we have a lot of foreigners that come and are willing to work long hours for less pay.

I think this might have something to do with the longer hours problem.

Now, on the other hand, many companies, like where I work now, have a 35 hour work week. That's only 7 hrs. per day of salaried people. I'm still a consultant, but older now with a better hourly rate and I put in only 7, 7.5 hours a day. I'm one of the lucky ones.

Hope that helps some.

Love, annamill (I still want to write annap)

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:37 PM

You're not way off base, but you have to go a bit deeper.

If you are interested in some well researched analysis of this subject, check out Noam Chomsky.

Another good author is Seymour Melman.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 03:07 PM

Things will go back to normal when the republicans get in!! lol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 05:07 PM

Wow, Leej, that's good.

I do believe that Reconstruction would have been a whole different ball game if Lincoln had not been killed. It's kinda funny, here in the South, there's still people who have it in for Abe because he called for troops to put down the rebellion. Not a good call, really, but what else was he supposed to do? It was Sherman who said war is hell, and he wasn't kidding. Abe Lincoln was always one of my heroes.

As far as the Holocaust and other such massacres are concerned, I can't even begin to touch on that because I would not be able to get the words out right. But you're right ---- how many valuable contributions were lost as a result?

(PG-13 ALERT) How about the loss of modesty? People now will show just about any part of their person, then they get mad if you stare. Well, excuse me, but if you wear a skirt that barely covers your ass, or you stuff a cucumber in your trousers, aren't you trying to get people to look? Am I wrong? Fashion designers seem to equate "bare" with "sexy" and sometimes it works. But if you ever watch an awards show, you know it doesn't work more often than it does. Jennifer Lopez may have got a lot of attention in her navel-baring dress, but I didn't think it was attractive. (and no, I'm not jealous, even if my stomach was that flat which it will be one of these days you would NEVER catch me in something like that) And one more thing - maybe I don't want to see your boxer shorts! Pull up your damn pants!!!

I mean, can't we leave a little something to the imagination? Sometimes half the fun is in the undressing. Aw, you know what I mean.................

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:27 PM

No,Kim. Please keep going...

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lanfranc
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:41 PM

The greatest loss? How about a sense of proportion?

Paedophiles and rapists have always been there, they are just better publicised nowadays. The risks aren't greater, or different, just better known.

The archive quality of books is suspect - stick to tablets of stone for real permanence. If books weren't meant to be burned, why are they made of paper? Ditto papyri.

The dinosaurs were probably pretty fed up about extinction, but they made way for the mammals. Who will we make way for? Nature will get its own back on our profligacy, and probably sooner than we think.

In a thousand years will some ant sit at an anternet terminal and bemoan the loss of humans?

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: GUEST,Theodore Cleaver
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:54 PM

I had a Kendall Morse tape that Eddie Haskell threw under a steamroller.

Then I got a Rick Fielding CD and threw that under the steamroller too.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:56 PM

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM

Yeah I know what you mean.My Art Thieme CD put a big dent in the roller and damn near knocked the operator out of his seat.Powerful stuff that Mudcat Music.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM

I agree with Deborah's post about the Holocaust.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 07:07 PM

Jeri,

I also think you are a very wise lady.

When I first joined the Mudcat, another person who I consider very wise, Jon Freeman, gave me an opportunity to understand how different (and even special), communicating over the internet is as opposed to other forms of communication.

I had made a remark, in all innocence, about wanting to communicate with people from non-English speaking countries because I had Celtic burnout. I was speaking musically, but Jon very kindly pointed out that some Celtic people who's first language in not English might misunderstand, and think I was speaking linguistically. I apologized immediately to anyone who might possibly have been offended. Not because I felt I had done anything wrong, but because I want to make every effort I can to unnecessarily avoid giving offense.

I think there is a greater chance of being misunderstood when communicating in this medium than perhaps with any other. I have found, however, that if we spend some time thinking carefully about what to post before we actually do it, we can drastically reduce the amount of animosity that, quite frankly, I think does serious damage to the Mudcat. I think the disturbing events of a couple of months ago when one of our members was forced to go underground, are a good illustration of this point.

So, I'm coming out in the open and asking people to keep in mind, when we post, that we are not speaking to other people in our own living room. We are speaking to large numbers of people, all over the world, many of whom have different cultures, beliefs, and assumptions and ways of comunicating than we have. It's a big responsibility, but, in my opinion, the rewards are great.

Warmest regards to all of you,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:00 PM

The internet actually has the potential to create greater cultural awareness, doesn't it.

Here I am, a bit stoned, sitting in a half lit room, in a small flat, in a small town in England, "chatting" to people thousands of miles away, all of whom are living inconceivably diverse lives.

It's like having an imaginary friend, except that your imaginary friend is actually a whole plethora of personalities, representing an immeasurably wide range of cultural bias and opinion.

Think about this as you look over your shoulder at the familiar confines of your room.

The first scholars, who found that a message can be carved in stone, are looking down on us proudly tonight.

Anyway, I've probably understated how stoned I really am, so I think I'll leave this thought for y'all to dissect at will.

Any smart comments and I'm going to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:07 PM

One out of 10,000...not bad odds really.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:13 PM

Thanks, Lox

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:27 PM

Lonesome wonders how many Shakespeares we lost in the holocaust. Well I'd say we were unlucky if we lost just one. Billions and billions of us so far, and just the one Shakespeare to show for it. To think we might find one among a mere six million or so is stretching it a bit. I don't make light of the holocaust, but I am bothered that one-million-plus hatcheted to death in Ruanda, out of a total population of 4 or 5 million, doesn't come close in popular recollection. About 55 million died in WW2. Something like 100 million were killed by wars in the 20th century. Right now we're trading diamonds with militias for which slashing the arms off kids is a defined strategy.

Just for once I'm sorry to see Brendy apologising - I was with him until he did. Kendall wants to get his head around that fact he gave us, that a guy was murdered for missing a penalty. (But there's an "o" in Colombia, as someone pointed out in another thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:52 PM

Ken Saro-Wiwa (Nigeria) murdered for being a writer by a scared government.

Who's next? Mumia Abu Jamal? He's on death row now in the states. Do some research, find out about the guy, start a campaign and save his life.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:13 PM

Indeed Fionn. Just as there is no "a" in paedophiles.
Thanks for 'seeing my point', though.

I felt no need to pursue the matter further, as I took it by kendall's apology that he had no wish to.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:59 PM

I still feel that same way about comparing sports to real losses, but, it was becoming a one on one with Brendy, and, that is out of place here. Actually, the Nazis butchered 12 million people, not 6 million. That included Slavs, Gypsies and homosexuals.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 10:02 PM

What say we just let this thread die? If you must have the last word, go, but I'm finished with it.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 10:22 PM

What would that 'last word' be:

BS: lost forever
The definition of loss?

B.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 10:55 PM

kendall, this is a good thread.

Re: your boredom, and needing to alleviate it by saying things that piss people off. Have you considered taking up chess? ;-)

All the best,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 01:03 AM

Fionn,I agree that there have been many other great atrocities committed,but few with the cold will and brutal skill of the Nazis. In many of the tests that might determine that a people had reached the pinnacle of civilization,particularly the application and evolution of technology and science,Germany in the 30s and 40s would have passed with flying colors. But that this science,which had taken a place of worship and hope that only God had held before,should be applied by man for the purpose of exterminating his neighbors...it presents a loss not just in terms of human life and potential,but a likewise great loss in man's belief that he is evolving toward the Angel side of his nature,and not the Beast.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 07:59 AM

Hmmmmm.

The Incas, Aztecs, Sioux, Navajoe, Blackfoot etc might have something to say, as would most of west Africa between the 17th and 19th centuries. Australian Aborigines , The soviet unions "disappeared", not to mention the "disappeared" in Chile might have something to say too.

Check out the Dutch East India Company's record in what was the Dutch East Indies (Jakarta, Timor, Banda etc). Check out Pol pots record in Cambodia, or Suharto's record in East Timor.

I take nothing away from the tragedy that was the nazi holocaust, I am adding to it, by pointing out that that type of thing has been going on for hundreds of years. In truth, of course, it's been going on for thousands of years, and will probably happen again. As I pointed out before, an innocent man is about to take the electric chair for being a good writer in the US.

I will finish though with a quote which puts the second world war into perspective.

"...not all the victims were jews, but all the jews were victims..."

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 08:49 AM

To get some music into this, there is a song about the Canadian govt. wiping out the natives in Saskatchewan in the 1800's. The line that gets me goes: Come Gabriel we'll make a stand, here at Batoche beside the river, and never mind their Gatlin guns, if we lose this time, we've lost forever.. another hooker in it goes..Their dreams were lost, and their spirit died.. You would have to be made of wood to not be moved by this song.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:23 AM

Jim Henson. Not on the scale of the Holocaust or the Library but a terrible loss.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:46 AM

Amen to that Lox. There's never been much chance of the Angel side of us prevailing, this last few thousand years - though you put that point well Loneseome, and I took it.

And amen to saving Mumia Abu Jamal, before he too is lost forever. (I almost expect cases like this from Saudi Arabia, East Timor etc. But the USA???)

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 11:58 AM

What about Leonard Pelltier?

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 12:42 PM

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 02:49 PM

That's it..I'm outta here!

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lanfranc
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 06:48 PM

A thought from the grim IMF-subject England of the 1970s.

Is this the way the world ends, not with a whim, but with a banker?

If there is ever a last word, I bet it will be (in any language) "Ohhhhhhshit!" (always assuming there's time)

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 07:25 PM

I'll remember that one.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 08:02 PM

Fortunately Lox, you don't have to remember it. Under amny circumstances that is the "autoword." Its a fact that the most frequent last word uttered by pilots on cockpit voice recorders is "Oh Shit."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 08:14 PM

I meant Lan Francs perversion of (was it by Dylan Thomas) the poem "this is the way the world ends"

(not with a bang but a whimper)

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:34 PM

Yeah I know......but being me, I'm more inclined to go for the "Shit" part........sorry.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Lox
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:42 PM

Hey, ... I like shit too ... erm ...what I mean is ... um ... what I actually meant ... er ... oh shit!

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:53 PM

As of today, September 7, 2000, what about MP3 ?
To me, it seems they got what they had coming.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM

REFRESH:

Very interesting. No discussion of the multi-million dollar judgment against MP3 ??

Art

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 03:48 PM

Don't know much about it. What do you think about it?

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM

This is not a loss but a wind of change precipitated by technology and new ways of communicating, which will always reform our sense of contract and reality in consequence. The Napster case and the MP3 case are symptoms of the engagement between open communication systems, and commercial structures built on legacies of partition and separation. When the divisions fall before the growth of technical possibility, the dynamics of the market changes. The bloodshed being precipitated in cases like these is a rearguard action. For a beautiful essay or two on this subject see John Perry Barlow writing in the current edition of "Wired". (www.wired.com, but not yet updated!). In an earlier similar essay, he offers the following quote from Jefferson. I offer it to emphasize that balanced against our great losses, we should always also recall the strides mankind has made in the direction of better communication, higher freedom, and most important, new and sometimes better ideas:

"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, itis the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession ofeveryone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.

Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every otherpossesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapableof confinement or exclusive appropriation.

Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subjectof property."

 

             - Thomas Jefferson

Regards,

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 08:05 PM

What about creations?

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:13 AM

All of these things are whatever the Supreme Court might say they are at any given moment---at least in the U.S. To the extent that legal edicts can be enforced, that is what will be.

Other stuff is just lost.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 11:53 PM

I was gonna be flip, and say something silly, like Star Trek (TOS) or a 10 cent box of Good and Plenty.

None of us can go back and change anything. These things happened and we have to go on. Like someone said, If the library of Alexandria had been saved, the US Civil War would have been fought with Atom Bombs.

Each thread we try to re-ravel only un-ravels umpteen more threads.

Threfore, I think the greatest loss is the ability to learn from one's mistakes, not to repeat them and just go on.

Wincing Devil  >;-( If there's one thing we've learned from history, it's that we learn NOTHING from history

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:20 AM

The point is, we will never know, Devil. We can only guess.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 09:37 AM

A 13 year old boy, murdered by a pair of pedophiles who received their inspiration from NAMBLA. The ACLU is now defending NAMBLA's right to dispense information on circumventing the law in order to engage in pedophilia.

And of course the entire gay community will be blamed.

Subject: RE: BS: lost forever
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:58 PM

what kind of jury would let that scum walk?