Did I do him wrong?

Subject: Did I do him wrong?
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:59 PM

Hi Folks, today I'm in need of advice concerning someone whom I dearly love.Six yrs. ago I rec"d a frantic call from Ed, my closest male cousin. He said he had no where else to turn and needed a loan of $3,00 to forstall eviction and pay other bills.He had 35cents and a can of soup in his ap't. (He also had knowledge that my husband had been killed in an auto accident & I had gotten unsur. money.) He had been laid off from work 3 mo's. before. He told me how he would kill himself. I got the $ to him immediately In the interim, I took him to dinners, plays,etc.He got a job 2 months later.He said he would pay $100. a month, when that didn't work I said,"pay $50." Bottom line is he has paid $900 in 6 yrs In the last 2 yrs.I've gotten $150. I've never verbally harrassed, just dropped a line saying Cuz I think you've forgotten me or sent addressed stamped envelopes. He's gone on vacations and has aquired 400 vcr library in the last 2 yrs. I wrote a letter stating my intention to sue him, and that the papers will be forthcoming. The one relative who knows says I shouldn't sue, I will break up the family It is obvious he cares not one iota for me.Now I hear he's done this to others. Sorry This is so long. Did I do him wrong? Please advise. Slainte Mickey191

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: flattop
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 01:07 PM

No. You did good. You helped him out when he needed help. Then you made good decisions. One thing to watch is that suing may cost more than you recover unless you can do it in small claims court.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Morticia
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 01:29 PM

Mickey, you must know you didn't do anything wrong here, don't you?And pursuing the debt will afford this cousin the opportunity to face up to his responsibilities....if you don't, the message he gets is this is okay when it very definitely is NOT okay.Good luck with it.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: LR Mole
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 02:02 PM

Did you do him wrong? No. Did he do you wrong, when he sold you all out for money? Yes. Pin on the star: you got it to do.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 03:02 PM

Morticia, in my heart, I agree he needs a lesson. Fifty five years old & no one has straightened him out, so maybe it won't destroy the family. L.R> Mole : this is a whole new insight for me. In a way, he sold out all these years of caring and sharing that we've had. He is gay and I can't tell you how many times I've defended him when rel- atives would bash him.So he's taken more then my money. Thank you all. Mickey191

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Grab
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 03:25 PM

Did you ask him for the balance of the money back? Maybe he was assuming that he could continue paying it off at $50 a month regardless - sounds pretty selfish to me, but anyway. But by stiffing you (and others too?) he's going well on the splitting-up front himself.

Make damn sure he's no intention of giving you your money back though, if you do sue. Suing's very much a last-ditch thing, only to be tried after all polite (and impolite shouting-and-screaming) methods have failed. The only person who really wins a court case is the lawyer. And then cuz offers $10 a month and the court says "fine", and you're worse off than b4, plus court fees...

Grab.

PS. Good luck - stuff like this is never pleasant.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 04:09 PM

Be particularly careful not to let the statute of limitations run out. Your state has a set of rules that provides that after a certain period of time you can't effectively sue. You've had payments within the last two years, so I am assuming--and I'm not a lawyer, mind you--that your time to sue would run from the last payment he made. But don't just sit there; keep the pressure up, and get whatever you can. Keep dates and amounts of payments, if any.

YOu might want to make an offer of settlement, agreeing to take something less than is still owed, if paid in one payment in full within some suitably short period of time. That may leave a bad taste in your mouth, but if it avoids the expense and argle-bargle (a technical legal term) and uncertainty of suing it might be well worth it. And you might end up ahead of what you'd net if you had to sue.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 05:13 PM

If he'd kept up his $50 a month he'd have paid you off years ago, so it can't be a misunderstanding. So he's either a thief, or more likely just totally disorganised and self-centred.

Of course the trouble with this kind of thing is if the person owing the money says you'd told him it was a gift or something like that, and you don't have anything in writing.

If you were in England I'd advise you to go along to the Citizen's Advice Bureau to get the legal position straight in your head before you do anything.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Iarf
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 05:25 PM

The money is probably not worth pursuing. What is important is that YOU don't get more hurt by YOUR decision. He sounds unrepentant and (probably) doesn't lose any sleep. What ever you decide in the light of the above advice make sure you can live with it. You are the important person in this. Wish I could help more.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: GUEST,Mickey191
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:10 PM

Sorry, I left out the fact that he mailed me a promissory note. I did write him of my plan to sue in small claims court-giving him the opportunity to respond. Haven't heard a thing. Does anyone know if his employer will be notified when the case comes up?

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: okthen
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:06 PM

He's relying on your guilt trip,don't let him get away with it.

my initial thought was (100 people surveyed said) he's not gay, he's bent. but that wouldn't be very PC would it and we all HAVE to be PC don't we.

cheers

bill(post pub)

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: pict
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:31 PM

Amazing it would never enter my head to sue someone in a situation like that.My attitude is that if I can't afford to lose the money I can't afford to lend it if I were you I'd keep the money you'd save on the lawyer and chalk it up to experience because if he doesn't want to pay you back I can't see a court forcing him to he may just dig his heels in.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Gypsy
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:45 PM

Sigh...never, ever lend money to family or friends without a contract. but it is a little late to say that now, huh? Bottom line: You prefaced your post with "someone I dearly love" If this is so, you may have to make the decision to (a) pursue getting your money back (with interest, I would hope) or (b) keeping this relative. How important is he to you? I can guarantee, right or wrong, if you pursue this, you will no longer have him. (before anyone posts about the wisdom of keeping someone around like this, remember, it IS a relative) It is a very difficult decision to make. Best of luck, however you decide.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: GUEST,mickey191
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:48 PM

To Pict, I'm amazed at your response. Even if I had not one penny, I would have gotten it for him.He said he was going to kill himself, & I believed him. How could one live with that on one's conscience? We are not all in a position to write off such a sum of money.There are some questions which should never be asked. Example: May I sleep with your husband Mrs. Jones? Or, may I borrow $3,000 Widow Brown?

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:50 PM

I try not to lend money if I plan on seeing it again. People who need to borrow it often won't have the means to pay you back, and even people close to you can forget. Even so, it doesn't make it right, and it's disappointing when it happens.

No, you did nothing wrong. Not only did he take your money, he's making you feel guilty about wanting it back! He sounds like a "user," and may need a lesson more than you need the money back.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: pict
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 09:02 PM

Mickey191 no offense but I'm amazed you believed he was going to kill himself.Even if he had it wouldn't have been your fault and any rational person would come to that conclusion imo.It takes a lot for someone to get around to taking their own life and not getting a loan from a relative isn't generally high on the list of reasons for suicide.If you felt that strongly about some questions never being asked you wouldn't have given him the money.The main difference between you and I is one of discernment.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 10:16 PM

Mickey191 - It seems to me that there are two choices; 1) try to get the money back, or 2) write it off as a bad investment.

Choosing the latter, there are no additional choices.

Choosing the former, there are at least two choices; 1) legal means (sue) and 2) imaginative means.

Choosing the former, you have little additional choices except to follow defined legal procedures.

Choosing the latter, you can let become as kind or as vindictive as you wish. Example; If it were me, I'd take out an ad in his local newspaper telling what a cheat he's been and how he took advantage of you when you were in a very vulnerable position. Don't include your name, but use your initials so he knows who placed the ad. And include his picture. This way, even if you never see another dime, you'll have tons of satisfaction!

Lyle

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 09:13 PM

You say you have a promissory note from him. That helps a lot, if you go the legal route. What's the date of the note, and what terms did the note specify for payment? Your statute of limitations would run, as I understand it, from the time a payment was due and was not made. It is important that you document everything that happens, with dates, amounts, dates and times of phone calls if possible, copies of letters you may have written to him or received from him.

I don't know the laws of your state or province, but it is typical for the statute of limitations to be perhaps two years, and if you let that time go by you give up your legal right to sue--or rather, to collect if you do sue. The time on the statute of limitations could be as short as one year. FIND THIS OUT RIGHT AWAY!

The advice about putting an ad in the paper given above is a bad idea, in my opinion. You have to be VERY careful not to give him grounds for a libel suit. Yes, truth is a defense to libel, but you'd better be really sure you can document every allegation you make.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and the above should be taken merely as an opinion of a layman. However, I have worked in court for forty years, and rubbed shoulders with lawyers for that time, and I think the above and my previous message (as GUEST on 11/24) are pretty well founded.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 06:46 AM

You didn't do anything wrong except try to help a manipulative relative out of a bad situation and I am sure we've all done that before, to some extent.

I quit loaning a close relative money ages ago. I didn't get it back, I didn't sue them, I just made sure they understood it was not okay to ever ask me again and I chalked it up to one of those life lessons well-learned, even if it was the hard way.

kat

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 09:52 PM

Document your efforts and any agreements he made; phone notes, copies, etc. Get the whole trail documented.

Recapitulate the history in a new letter stating exactly whart he did and or agreed to when. keep the facts clear and unencumbered with extreme emotional color.

If you want to try other recourses first, send a copy to all those family members who will be broken up of a final request for repayment which includes the entire time track. Let them all have the story. Keep documenting every new development.

If you want legal recourse rather than just embarassing the hell out of him, your claim might fit under Small Claims court dependingon the state. Other wise it is likely not to cover legal costs unless he pays up.

A lawyer needs to advise you about collection proceedings, as well; for example, legal garnering, or a collection agency might be just the thing and they can take all the heat.

A

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 10:44 PM

I agree with Lyle's creative idea...if your cousin really is as self-centered and disorganised as he sounds (I think McGrath had the right of it most likely) then a letter, or most likely even a small claims lawsuit wouldn't help one bit...but by personal phone calls, making yourself a pest now that he has money (as he did to YOU hmm?)in his pocket and reminding him of the debt, I think you could be the squeaky wheel that gets the grease and eventually get your money back.

One other VERY important thing...have you told him all that you've told us? About how betrayed you felt, and how you felt you had defended him and got nothing in return? If you are counting on him to be able to figure these things out himself, I wouldn't. You really can't assume he can read your mind, and perhaps if he really understood how you feel, he might have more incentive to get your money back to you. He used a guilt trip on you once, so turn about is fair play I'd say...clear and concise emotional communication sometimes works wonders!

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM

Went through a similar unpleasant experience with a brother who lied about why he needed the money and then refused to pay it back even twelve years later when I was out of work because he didn't "think I needed it". Great logic! I made a nuisance of myself. Called nightly and sometimes twice a day when he missed an agreed upon payment. I got it all back. Then learned that he owed money to three other relatives playing one against the other - "I can't pay you because so and so is demanding payment." We all fell for it. Once I got paid, everyone else followed suit. He did it because he could, not because he needed the money. There were trips to the Islands and a new 4 wheel drive affair. Sad - he refuses to speak to me anymore - I am the bad guy for making an interest free loan for twelve years.
Two comments - if someone is truly considering suicide, a loan is not going to change things - that was a ploy. And i never lend money anymore. If someone needs it and I choose to provide it, it is a gift. I don't want the responsibility of collecting it.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 02:11 PM

I'm not a lawyer, either, but I'll tell you what I've heard -

Suing might not accomplish much. Assuming you win the case, you will walk out of court with only a piece of paper saying you sued him and won. That by itself doesn't get you any money, but it gives you the right to take certain further actions against him. For example, if he is employed, you can garnishee his wages. (This means his employer has to hand over part of his wages to you.) If anyone owes him money for any reason, you can force them to pay you instead of him. (This can be very useful if he is self-employed or owns a business. Almost every business has customers who owe them money.) You might be able to seize some of his property (such as his car) and sell it. If he has a bank account, you can force the bank to pay the balance to you.

Just knowing that you CAN do these things MIGHT make him decide to pay up. That's the best possible outcome.

If he doesn't have any of these assets, you're out of luck. If he does have them, it's up to you to find out about them. You have to find out the names and addresses of his employer, his bank, the people who owe him money, and so on. Then you would have to draw up the paperwork to get these things accomplished. You can probably learn how to do these things yourself, but unless you enjoy it, it's probably not worth it.

You'd probably be better off hiring a collection agency to do these things for you, but then they get to keep a certain percentage of what they collect. It wouldn't hurt to call one right now, even before you decide whether to go to court, to find out what they can do and what their terms are. Look in your yellow pages under "Collection Agencies." (I just did, and I see ads that say "Call for a free phone consultation" and "We don't get paid until you get paid.")

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: GUEST,ken
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 02:28 PM

to all concerned: When you loan money to family consider it a gift !!!!! that is how it works out in most cases anyway.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: GUEST,Mickey191
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 05:50 PM

Thank you all for your help, which had some great ideas. Jim Dixon, I never thought of a collection agency. They don't break knees do they? As for outing him with relat- ives that seems too mean, and the newspaper ad is over the top.He doesn't have a phone or a car, and will not take my calls at work. I did write that The small claims papers were on the way, giving him time to pay up if he wanted to. No answer! I have every letter he wrote stating what an irresponsible cad he is and how ashamed he is of his conduct.Of all the people he knows I'm the one true person he has shared a special bond with. B.S! When I needed money one time, I looked around to see what I could sell. Dad's rifles! That tided me over. I found out he has an Andy Warhol pencil sketch.That has to be worth a few bob. You know folks, I just hate the idea That I was used, and by someone whom I thought returned my love. Thank you all.

Subject: RE: Did I do him wrong?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 08:28 PM

Well, chin up, Mickey; even the most loving people in fair weather can turn into rotten backstabbers when the chips are down, and it is often hard to see through the veneer to the structural stuff underneath. Comes with the (human) territory. Bounce back and redouble your zest for good survival -- it's th ebest revenge!

A