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BS: I think I'm conservative
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Jim Dixon Date: 23 Dec 00 - 07:19 PM DougR: With me? Did you think I was describing my own philosophy? Notice I always said "they," not "we." |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Dec 00 - 02:27 PM I'd have thought you'd have stuck with him through the second sentence too. (Then maybe started a thread called "I think I'm not conservative!...)
Have a happy traditional Christmas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: DougR Date: 23 Dec 00 - 01:34 PM Well, Jim, I was with you all the way through your first sentence. I hope that you and yours have a great holiday season! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Jim Dixon Date: 22 Dec 00 - 07:18 PM The old definition that says conservatives want to keep things as they are doesn't fit the people who call themselves conservatives in America today, i.e. the Republican Party. Republicans/conservatives want to change lots of things. They want to bring back compulsory prayer in public schools. They want to decorate courthouses and other public buildings with Christian religious symbols. They want to overturn Roe v. Wade so they can make abortion illegal. They want the right to ban anything "obscene" from public school libraries, public libraries, and the Internet. Some of them want creationism to be taught in public schools, and to teach that evolution is "only a theory." They want to abolish affirmative action or anything resembling "quotas." (This means you will no longer be able to use statistics to prove a pattern of discrimination, and therefore anti-discrimination laws will be practically impossible to enforce, since most bigots now have the good sense not to SAY they are discriminating). They want to abolish the Miranda warning (so police will no longer have to say, when they arrest someone, "You have the right to remain silent . . .") and they want to abolish the rule that says evidence that is obtained illegally cannot be used against you. They want to abolish taxes on capital gains, estate and gift taxes, taxes on corporations, and progressive rates on personal income taxes. Instead of supporting public schools, they want to give vouchers to parents to be spent at any school of their choosing. They want to deregulate practically all businesses. Under the banner of "tort reform," they want to make it harder for consumers to sue businesses, for employees to sue employers, for tenants to sue landlords. They want to make it easier for people to buy, sell, keep, and carry guns of all kinds. They want to abolish public support for such things as public transport (except they want to build more highways), public television, public radio, and the arts. They want to increase spending on the military. According to the old definitions, all these changes would be called "reactionary." (Except perhaps school vouchers - I don't think that has been done here before.) But for some reason, nobody wants to call a spade a spade. According to the old definitions, instead of having a liberal and a conservative party, it seems to me that we have a conservative and a reactionary party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 00 - 05:57 AM "The Ayatolah and the Taliban, who let whole orphanages of children die rather than allow the women who had been caring for them to work outside the home."
I'd doubt if you'd find an example of that happening in Iran - which isn't to say it's all fine there, and women haven't had their rights attacked and reduced. But the differences between the regimes in Iran and Afghanistan are comparable to those between Vietnam and Cambodia under Pol Pot.
And it's a lot more complicated than the Taliban being the expression of a culture's resistance to enforced liberalisation. As with Cambodia, it's more to do with an unexpected side-effect of the Cold War, and the attitude that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: ddw Date: 21 Dec 00 - 11:39 PM Ebbie — somehow I can't make the leap from zip codes to racial prejudice. I don't disagree that laws can change behavior to a degree, but I don't think they really touch our basic belief structures or ethical values. From what I've seen, outlawing prejudice just drives it underground and makes it more incidious until there is a sufficient backlash against the law to let it resurface — usually much more violently than before. In the 1950s or '60s a group of cultural anthopologists — sorry, it's been too long for my failing memory to quote chapter and verse — studied a wide variety of societies to see if they could find a universal taboo. They looked at sexual mores, property concepts, commerce, etc. — basically all forms of societal interaction.
The only UNIVERSAL taboo they could find was: YOU MAY NOT KILL A MEMBER OF THE IN-GROUP. I think a good example of what I'm talking about is what happened in the Middle East and Asia Minor in this century. Many of the Muslim countries passed laws liberalizing their society, giving women more rights, etc. It worked for a while, but the backlash has been horrendous — the Ayatolah and the Taliban, who let whole orphanages of children die rather than allow the women who had been caring for them to work outside the home. This isn't racial, per se, but it's an example of an attempt to use laws to change fundamental belief patterns. IMO, it just doesn't work. david |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: GUEST,cypher951 Date: 21 Dec 00 - 10:15 PM "Liberals don't feel worthy of their posessions....conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen" Mort Sahl |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Bill D Date: 21 Dec 00 - 02:18 PM "you're not suggesting that people's perception has anything to do with genes or heredity, are you? " well, yes, as a matter of fact, I am seeing more & more studies and evidence that genes and hormonal balance and 'chance' may determine more about us that we'd like to admit...(when you look at animals, and observe that some breeds of dogs, for example, are more agressive, it is not hard to understand that some people may become heads of corporations or soldiers of fortune partly because of testosterone...) We have the unusual place in nature of being able to analyze the very traits we are subject to...and being able to lie to ourselves about the results!........Why do you think that so many police 'seek' the violence that they are supposed to curb..and justify to themselves ANYTHING they do in the course of their job? I love the quote I read somewhere that "Theology is the finding of bad reasons for what we already believe by instinct or faith".......I suspect that a lot of the political, social and 'folk music' discussions could be included in that definition. (Which doesn't change my ideas of what is 'right'. It just makes my head swirl a bit more). |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Skeptic Date: 21 Dec 00 - 01:50 PM Ebbie, "Society as a whole" is, after all, just a bunch of inviduals. With a few exceptions, I've always found that laws formalize some widely help attitude, give it form and structure rather than serve as the catalyst/cause of some shift in attitude. Zip codes are more procedural and practical. The "is there anyone here who's...." is wrong. Demeaning to the person asking the question, disrespectful to the audience. It's coercive, asking others to share in what is (at the basis) bigotry. Protesting doesn't equate with taking a stand against bigotry but more with getting labeled as not having a sense of humor. There is a fine line between that kind of demeaning humor and satire. Finding it is sometimes hard. Maybe it's a matter of intent. Note: While the above proscription against use of demeaning humor applies to Trolls it does not apply to troll as any attention he gets, positive or negative is pathetically apprecaited. McGrath, Read Crane Brinton "Anatomy of a Revolution". Great book that traces common elements in four revolutions (American, English, French and Russian) including the very important use of labeling to polarize and define the sides. It seems to me that most of politics is ONLY about winning, with little attention to dealing with and solving problems. Most true when peolpe start capitalizing the "C", "L" and "R". But how about my favorite: a moderate radical reactionary? Regards John
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Dec 00 - 05:21 AM conservative - that's about not liking change for its own sake. radical - that's about when your are cahnging somethingt, doing it thoroughly, getting diown tio the root of the troubls. liberal - that's about trying to see the other person's point of view and not pushing them around. All these words are about very different characteristics, which are in no way incompatible with each other. There is nio reason someone can't be a liberal, radical and conservative at the same time. With lower case initial letters of course.
Setting them up as if they were opposites is to oversimplify and distort, and its done by politicians and others as a way of manipulating people, and stoppingf them thinkiong clearly.
The idea being to get a response "I don't like this, so it must mean I like that; and I do like this, and that man says he likes it too, so I must like him." Put like that it's transparently silly - but most of us fall for it time and time again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Ebbie Date: 21 Dec 00 - 01:42 AM David, passing laws 'against' an attitude may not change that attitude in individuals but it will definitely change the attitudes of society as a whole. Racist or sexist or violent jokes or whatever may still be told- but the one who exposes his/her biases is much more circumspect than in the past. He and she are at least aware now that certain attitudes are looked down upon as deriving from ignorance or are from the mindset of someone that most people don't want to know. (One remark that exasperates or sometimes infuriates me is when someone says, before they relate a joke or make a remark: "Is there anyone Catholic/Polish/Jewish/whatever here?" What has that to do with it! I hate to think of what they say in the bosom of their own family.) If you disagree with the premise that attitudes change as the result of ordinances or laws or changing mores, stop a minute and think of postal zip codes. When I was young such a thing was unheard of and I would not have believed that we would all someday obediently jot it down on each envelope. We do change. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: ddw Date: 21 Dec 00 - 12:56 AM Jeez, Bill — you're not suggesting that people's perception has anything to do with genes or heredity, are you? That seem to be on the "nature" side of the nature/nurture argument and I thought that was strictly the territory of conservatives. ZoWie — conservative and radical aren't mutually exclusive concepts. "Radical" just means going to the root to make changes — which can be either side, as much as leftists hate to admit that. BTW, Bill — don't think I take much of this stuff seriously; I just like to argue about it. *BG* david |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: GUEST,ZoWie Date: 21 Dec 00 - 12:26 AM What's a conservative? Newt Gingrich runs around talking about a Second American Revolution, and the left wants things back to before Ronzo gave it away to the corporations. These labels are so totally deconstructed by the media that they are now meaningless. Be yourself. And as for age making you more conservative... more hooey. I'm getting more radical. -Z
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Troll Date: 20 Dec 00 - 06:21 PM You can say THAT again. *BG* troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Dec 00 - 05:47 PM Basically, yes. It helps us get clearer in our head what we actually believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Dec 00 - 05:47 PM Basically, yes. It helps us get clearer in outr head what we actually believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Bill D Date: 20 Dec 00 - 04:54 PM (even though I messed up some of the grammar) *smile*...thanks..I have wondered for years. And, given that thought, I wonder WHY we argue so hard..*grin*...just for the mental exercise?
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: DougR Date: 20 Dec 00 - 02:14 PM Bill D., that last paragraph of yours is a Gem! I wish I had said it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Bill D Date: 20 Dec 00 - 12:04 PM "People will either grow out of their prejudices, or they won't. Laws aren't going to make any difference. But liberals will sure as hell pass them. " I sure hope I never gave the impression that I thought laws would stop prejudice...but I SURE am in favor of laws to deal with those who try to ACT on prejudice! "Legislate morality"?...not what goes on inside you...but what you DO about it!. Sure, Jerry Falwell...or Rush Limbaugh... are extreme examples which deserve a special catagory such as 'reactionary'....but their positions are merely points on a continuum, much like definitions of folk music, and you & I will simply have to differ as to where on that line 'fairness' become 'interference'..... One of the most amazing, interesting things about sane, intelligent human being is how they are able to look at the same data, situations and information can be interpreted totally differently, and lead us to very divergent attitudes. Just different wiring, I suspect..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Kim C Date: 20 Dec 00 - 11:06 AM I am largely conservative - but I don't expect everyone to do things My Way (unless I'm in charge of the project but that's a different story). I like to consider all sides of the story, and on some things I am pretty liberal. But I vote Libertarian whenever I can. My friends seem to love me anyway. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: rabbitrunning Date: 20 Dec 00 - 10:20 AM What laws do, David, is to prevent to some degree the institutionalization of prejudices. (Of course that works the other way around, too! See Jim Crow in your local encyclopedia.) School rivalries threaten no ones life or livelihood. Ethnocentrism and racial prejudice do. I prefer eclecticism as a philosophy. Where I find merit in the arguments of a self-proclaimed conservative, I will agree. The subject of phonics as the preferred method for teaching reading for example. Children in the first three years of school must learn to decode. Third and fourth grade is plenty early enough to start working on comprehension and analytical skills. Your statement " a conservative (read as individualist, free-marketer or whatever) knows you can't legislate morality and doesn't try. I reiterate: "He governs best who governs least." " struck me as ludicrous. Conservatives, in the U.S. at least, cheerfully legislate morality in much more intensely personal areas than the public occasions where liberals want to restrict prayer. (I do see some merit in society meddling with sexual conduct, but strictly along medical and consequential grounds.) The people who really don't try to legislate morality are the libertarians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: flattop Date: 20 Dec 00 - 09:53 AM And flattop isn't derived from the latin for something like Flatula Topola? |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: flattop Date: 20 Dec 00 - 09:40 AM Leslie Feidler asked in his book Freaks, 'Are you one of the Normals?' Makes being cluster around the mean seem strange. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Dec 00 - 09:01 AM Preservative is latin-based. So is convert, unfortunately, and quibble... "flattop isn't though.
Here's a link to an article I've just been reading about the eforts that little squit William Hague is making to turn "liberal" into a smear word in England along American lines. (The author thinks it's unlikely to work, and I agree - it's got too many non-threatening connotations.)
Tony Blair tried to do something like that that with his "forces of conversatism" speech last year - but at least he used that one accurately, to mean people who are suspicious of change, and he identified them with his selected enemies on the left as well as the right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: flattop Date: 20 Dec 00 - 07:32 AM Looks like a classic example of latin based words running out of steam. Perhaps we could replace conservative with preservative with its sweeter overtones. None of this Jerry Falwell stuff. Yeah, let's talk about Kevin becoming a preservative. Later we can turn all our perverts into converts. Unfortunately I have no time to talk for a few days so you'll have to quibble without me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: ddw Date: 19 Dec 00 - 11:17 PM Bill D — I wholeheartedly agree with you, to a point. I part your company when you trundle out the likes of Jerry Falwell as "conservative." The dork's a "reactionary," i.e., someone who wants to return to an idealized past that never really existed. As for laws being distinguishable by whether they prevent us from doing something (praying in public) as opposed to restricting those who would dictate we MUST pray — I feel there's no difference worth mentioning. My point is that liberals (read as leftist, socialist, communist, whatever) want to make a law to govern it; a conservative (read as individualist, free-marketer or whatever) knows you can't legislate morality and doesn't try. I reiterate: "He governs best who governs least." As for laws that restrict the rights of those who would restrict my rights — what a crock. It's just another name for trying to legislate morality. Societies are formed of fluid sets of in-groups and out-groups and we join/dislike them at various stages of our lives. Most people are uncomfortable with "different" people — i.e., members of an out-group. That's why there are fights at Catholic-public high school football games. Five years later they may marry on of the other team's cheerleaders. Do we really need laws saying we can't "dislike" those people? Now, substitute school allegiances — with a dash of religious rivalry thrown in — with national, racial or whatever differences. Is it going to help to make laws? I doubt it. People will either grow out of their prejudices, or they won't. Laws aren't going to make any difference. But liberals will sure as hell pass them. Just one more observation and I'll wrap up this rant — Have you ever noticed that nobody ever makes a law that doesn't forbid the population from doing what it would do naturally? Not sure if that's good or bad, I just find it interesting.... cheers, david |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Troll Date: 19 Dec 00 - 10:29 PM Turkey sounds about right for Nader. troll *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Dec 00 - 06:42 PM "the idea that conservatives are resistant to change"That's what conservative means in the first place(and I'm resistant to surrendering words just because they are also used to mean something else).
I think great harm is done by all these political factions that use words like conservative and liberal and democrat and republican as party labels and as political epithets - as if they had anything at all to do with where you are on the political spectrum.
I think the Irish idea of having completely arbitrary but fine sounding labels like Fianna Fail and Fine Gael has a lot going for it. I think the Americans would do well to abandon all this talk about Democrats and Republicans, and talk in terms of The Donkey Party and The Elephant Party instead.
I don't think Nader has a totem animal - that makes me a bit suspicious. I think the Greens should adopt the Buffalo as their heraldic beast. Or maybe take up Benjamin Franklin's suggestion for a national symbol for the USA, and adopt the Turkey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: MarkS Date: 19 Dec 00 - 06:40 PM Would guess that if those of us who define themselves as conservative and those of us who prefer liberal were to sit down and compare attitudes on issues, there would be more points of similarity than of difference. The problem these days is that many who define themselves as liberal are more classically radical, while many so called conservatives are really reactionary. MarkS |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: DougR Date: 19 Dec 00 - 06:17 PM Troll: was not extolling the Starwars concept, but trying to point out to McGrath, who seems ROOTED to the idea that conservatives are resistant to change, that the Starwars idea was sort of a new idea. Well, maybe Buck Rogers thought of it several years ago, I don't know. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Bill D Date: 19 Dec 00 - 05:37 PM In response to DDW...... (re-paste of relevant sentences) ""As for "one group imposing rules, morés, religious restrictions, etc., on others, is to be feared." It seems to be that's the position of what passes for a liberal these days. They have rules for everything, dictate mores (you CANNOT dislike this group or that group), restrict religion (You CANNOT say a prayer at the start of anything). "" ..surely you are not really suggesting that laws against discriminaton 'infringe' on those who DO 'dislike this group or that'?.... or that restricting of public prayers which make minorities uncomfortable is the same as 'restriction of religion'??? In this society, under the Constitution, freedom OF religion is guaranteed, as it should be...but there can be no sane exercise of that right unless it also allows freedom FROM religion for those who so choose!..Jerry Falwell would have the entire societal structure based on HIS notion of religion if he could, and THAT is really conservative!....I would allow Mr. Falwell to worship as he pleases, but would NOT appreciate him trying to dictate how I live my life ...and that, I guess makes me a 'liberal' on the matter. (I belong to a society whose concern is wood (like tress & their products)...and by chance, a lot of the older members are conservative Christian...and there is a small, but unhappy group within it who do NOT see why we must be regaled with prayers to Jesus before every function or meal!..If I understand theology correctly, Jesus will hear even silent, personal prayers!)....there are similar distinctions to be made in other areas where YOUR right follow your proclivities may be superceeded by MY right not to be subjected to them..(smoking, playing bagpipes in a restaurant, carrying weapons...etc..) Churches make distinctions between sins of omission, and sins of comission...in a similar way, I make a distinction between laws which restrict other's rights, and laws which restrict those who WISH to restrict other's rights... (gee-..sorry not to have a cute little remark here..*grin*..I do sound so serious & grim...but it ain't always funny) |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Dec 00 - 04:51 PM And here is a poem by Padraic Pearse that sums it up for me. Written, I read somewhere, the day before he was shot, for trying to bring about a necessary change..
The Wayfarer by Padraig Pearse
The beauty of the world has made me sad.
Sometimes my heart has shaken with great joy
Or little rabbits, in a field at evening,
Or some green hill, where shadows drifted by,
Or little children with bare feet
Things young and happy.
And then my heart has told me -
Things bright, and green.
And I have gone upon my way, sorrowful.
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Troll Date: 19 Dec 00 - 04:47 PM The word for Reagan on SDI, sadly, was "sucker". Teller sold him a bill of goods and he bought it. I think his intentions were good but "Star Wars" was not the way to do it. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Dec 00 - 04:34 PM "McGrath, had you called Barry a "free market liberal" to his face, you might have disturbed him somewhat. "
Good. And that goes for Reagan. And the English Cobnsevative Party. None of them have the conservative temperament. Neophiles all of them.
Star wars, I ask you...A clear giveaway. A techno-freak. A right wing radical.
The other word for what I'm talking about, I suppose, is Luddite:
"I saw great Cobbett riding, the horseman of the Shires, G.K.Chesterton (An Old Song)
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: DougR Date: 19 Dec 00 - 04:02 PM I think the problem lies in our various ideas of what a Liberal is, and what a Conservative is. In Great Britain the two terms may have no correlation at all to what they mean in America. McGrath, had you called Barry a "free market liberal" to his face, you might have disturbed him somewhat. He certainly defined himself as a Conservative. As far as a I know, in American politics, "free market liberal" is not even a part of our language. To many of you, a person that opposes change appears to be a cornerstone in describing what is a Conservative. Where that idea comes from, I have no idea. Anybody ever heard of the "Starwars Defense Initiative" proposed by President Reagan? That's not change? But maybe Reagan was not a Conservative either. Maybe he, too, was a "free market liberal." :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Dec 00 - 02:38 PM The point is, it's not a left/right thing at all. You can be as far left as it comes, and still be temperamentally opposed to changes except when it's essential. And you can be as far right as it gets, and still be a neophile, who likes change for its own sake.
And I would say that none of this has anything to do with whether you are liberal in outlook or not, that's determined on a completely different set of criteria, nothing to do with whether you liek change or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Dec 00 - 02:22 PM Well I'm liberal to a degree I think everybody should be free But if you think I'd let Barry Goldwater Move in next door Marry my daughter You must think I'm crazy. ..............Bob Dylan Had to throw that in guys........Sorry. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Troll Date: 19 Dec 00 - 02:16 PM Certainly I want change, Kevin. But slowly, carefully, with much forethought, not "Oh boy, this looks like fun. Lets do that and see what happens!" The fad of the moment is not the way to have effective progress. Neither is the attitude of "That's the way we've always done it." The one uses vitamins and coffee enemas to cure cancer, the other uses leeches. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Dec 00 - 11:39 AM troll's admitted he's not a conservative anyway - he's too keen on change. As was Attila the Hun, so far as I've heard.
And also, so far as I've heard Barry Goldwater was too keen on the wrong changes to count as conservative - I'd put him down as a free-market liberal.
For an example, some years ago they nationalised the railway system in Great Britain - a necessary and therefore desirable change. Then they privatised it, for doctrinaire reasons, and to give their friends a handout - an unnecessary and therefore undesirable change which has come close to wrecking the whole system. Renationalising the railways now is necessary, and therefore desirable.
Again, reducing tax levels so as to allow the rich to keep more money was an unecessary and highly undesirable change.
Modernising brewing methods is unnecesaary and undesirable. And so on and so forth.
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: DougR Date: 19 Dec 00 - 11:03 AM McGrath: Please read "The Conscience of a Conservative," by Barry Goldwater. If after reading it you still view your self as a Conservative, get back to us. Never in my wildest imagination would I think of you as one. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: InOBU Date: 19 Dec 00 - 10:07 AM Next time! I seldom get up to the Bronx, my passport is not in order... - Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Troll Date: 19 Dec 00 - 08:56 AM David, not to worry. I understand. Flattop, we'd have indoor toilets of course. Conservatives don't wear hair shirts. We enjoy our creature comforts as much as the next guy. We just don't jump on the latest fad, that's all. Of course I'm an idealist.What's your point? Most of those radicals who came into their class awareness during Viet Nam, when right back to their midle and upper middle class existence as soon as the danger was over. I know a few of them here in Gainesville and they get more and more conservative the older they get. Re: trotsky, My wifes fathers family lived in Connecticut, her grandfather was a dentist. Her grandmother used to say that, while they were friends,her husband was NOT a Trotskyite. I don't know the year but you could probably that out at someplace like Workmans Circle. BTW, The Memsahib is in New York right now. She attended a Bat Mitzvah last weekend. Had I thought about it, I would have had her give you a call. She's staying up in the north Bronx, right on the Westchester co. line. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: InOBU Date: 19 Dec 00 - 08:22 AM Funny how most Americans believe there are only liberals and conceratives... well that is what we get for haveing a one party system with two factions... My old departed and RED dad, God love him, said of Churchill - "If you aren't a socialist by the age of twenty one, you have no heart, and if you stop being a socialist, at any age, you never understood it in the first place." To many reds are just being fashionable, like all the American radicals who came to their class awareness to keep from have bits of their bodies blown away by the Viet Cong. Some of us were dyed in the wool. Kev. it is that conservative leftist we both share, and I know that is what you meant, just pulling everyone's chain, late at night, and now, another bleak morning with no hangover, well, it is less funny, eh? Troll, my family owns, and I live in the building Trotsky lived in when he was in New York. Who knows the great sceen from Morgan when he describes the death of Trotsky to a peeler, using an egg? Magic! Still waiting for reality to live up to my best fantacy... and the great leap forward (beam me up Scotty) Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: mkebenn Date: 19 Dec 00 - 07:58 AM Caligula taught the Romans to enjoy getting sacked.. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: flattop Date: 19 Dec 00 - 07:04 AM Just a quick note before I rush madly off to the big city. Bertrand Russell wrote that people would rather die by the latest means than live by an old fashioned method. He was writing about the atomic bomb but you know people. Back into the closet with that biker chick Jon, if you're still confused. I believe you can still say a prayer at the start of a prayer meeting so lighten up and have fun guys while we look into the constitutionality. I quite sure Bertrand Russell tried to bring up his daughter properly but she decided to become a Christian missionary. I still think you're special casing your true conservatives, Troll. You seem to be confusing the conservative ideal with practical, sniveling, complaining, self-pitying, undertaxed, Americans. Reminds me of Withold Gombrovicz referring to socialists with in-door toilets. Would a true conservative have in-door toilets or would he rely on long squatting traditions? I have seen more distorted British war propaganda films portraying conservative leaders than I've seen real right wing conservatives jumping over cliffs, I must admit with some regret. If they were to jump off cliffs, even wearing harnesses, they'd probably shit their pants just like the rest of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 00 - 06:03 AM That's called "job security". |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Dec 00 - 05:02 AM I think it was Paul Goodman, or it may have been Noam Chomsky, who said he was a neolithic conservative.
Having an attitude of "if it works don't mend it" is quite consistent with recognising that it doesn't work, and badly need mending.
What sends me up the wall is the assumpotion - and it's just as prevalent among rightwingwers as leftwingers, if anytjing miore so in my experience - and in the middle, that novelty is a thing to be fostered, for it's own sake. If something's been around for a bit, it's time to thrown it out and start anew. |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Jock Morris Date: 19 Dec 00 - 04:18 AM Relax folks, he only said he was conservative not a Conservative. Sending Kev a virtual single malt (Kev, you're welcome to call by and collect a real one any time (PM me for address))just to be on the safe side though:-) Scott |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: Jon Freeman Date: 19 Dec 00 - 03:55 AM Maybe I'm a socialist conservative then or maybe I am just confused. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: I think I'm conservative From: The Shambles Date: 19 Dec 00 - 02:37 AM I think that it less to do with change as such, but the type of change. Both sides of the fence have pretty much the same problems with any change.
To me it is more like this.......
A conservative hears somrthing (possibly a change) and has a reaction, usually a negative one, to it. Then will then look around for someone who shares that reaction. This confirms that their first reaction was correct and this will not now change much from the first reaction and will not be given too much further thought, largely because they are not alone in their thinking.
A liberal will have a reaction, maybe the same one as the conservative, but will not trust this reaction. They will then look around for the opposite reaction, which will enable them to start on a long process of thinking and subtle adjustments. The more people that are in agreement, the more suspicious and unsure, they will become. If this this correct, I would just like to say that, I am in total agreement with the statement that Kevin is a now Tory. |