Sessions under threat in UK?

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: ET
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 02:26 AM

I have had an idea.   Why not using he Licensing Bill to create a new music police force. Wearing bright red uniforms and armed with electronic tuners and metronomes they could have the power to issue £100 fixed penalty notices to any musician who hit a bum note, or exceeded 120 beats per minute.

Special attention could be given to piano accordionists, bagpipers and harmonica players with a 50% penalty uplift. Saxophonists would have double penalties.

Controls could be introduced and enforced by this lot as to what is played. Jazz could become a serious criminal offence carrying six months, folk music, if the words are not approved, could result in long terms in psychiatric institutions, and as to anyone playing Bach, well, remember how many children he had as a result.

This could at a stroke, reduce unemployment for musicians, increase government revenue and impose total control.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 03:10 AM

I think this subject has a long way to go. This thread is serving a useful purpose but it is getting difficult to load as there are now 100, pretty long posts. Time for a new one, I think.

Sessions under threat in UK Part 2

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: GUEST,Bob Lloyd
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:12 AM

Hi all,

Oxford still moving at the speed on continental drift! Still not received anything from either Isobel Garner who wrongly assumes that 1793 is a significant date for musicians, or councillor Eric Lucas, chair of the Health and Environment Committee. Still had no copy of the report that was sent to the council. No reply to emails to some of the other councillors either. Get the impression that they really don't want to talk about this issue?

I can understand their embarrassment at having expressed such warm support only to chicken out of doing something really constructive but I would have thought it only reasonable to provide us with some feedback on the reasons for the decisions.

Locally, most musicians just seem to be moving on. The sessions at the Old Ale House has all but folded since the guy who was threatened with prosecution left. He'd had enough of the brewery and the council. The new manageress seems to want to turn the pub into lager/football so most of the local musos have taken the hint and gone elsewhere. We've established a couple of new sessions in almost the only remaining real pubs. Since these are good sessions, it is paradoxically drawing support away from doing something about the council decision - oh fickle folk!

Nevertheless, we still need to keep the pressure up. Thanks Hamish for the info about Anthony Lester - I wonder if our local legal whiz on the council will take some notice of him!

All the best

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:35 AM

I do not understand. Do you mean in order to have a service in the public house?

AH! The penny has dropped.....a PUBIC Entertainment Licence.

I did not even see that on first or second reading. I think that makes my point about me and the typos?

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 06:50 PM

I suppose a pubic house would require a Pubic Entertainment Licence - maybe that "two performers only permitted" rule might make some kind of sense in that context...

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 06:25 AM

I am sorry for the typos that creep in from time to time. I have written so much on this sad subject that I am often on auto pilot with certain words.

The worst that I have noticed, so far is when in a letter to the council, I referred to a "pubic house!"

Unless of course 'you know better?'

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 06:18 AM

The law does not require a church to hold a Public Entertainment Licence for music staged as part of a service.

The law does require a church to hold a PEL for staging a public concert (free or otherwise), but will not charge the fee.

So a non profit-making session in a public house, is taxed with a fee.

And a profit making concert in a church, will not.

(Except in London, where they charge the fee.)

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: JudeL
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:18 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:34 AM

CORRECTION:

EFDSS phone number is: 0207-485 2206

Sorry - Hamish

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:04 AM

Sorry not to have got back to you sooner following the meeting on Monday with Anthony Lester about freedom of expression vs local authority PEL enforcement. I have been away for a couple of days.

The meeting went well. Lester grasped the issue quickly and is very interested. His main suggestion echoes many of your comments above: a test case is required (not necessarily to go straight to court with). He would study it, and would then write a formal 'opinion'. This can't happen immediately, however, for the simple reason he is working abroad for the next few weeks.

So there is a real prospect of a legal assault on PEL enforcement where it clearly infringes the right to freedom of exression under Article 10 of the European Convention. To have support from the most eminment human rights lawyer in the UK is a great step forward.

Interestingly he knows the New York lawyer (Professor Paul Chevigny)who won the jazz musicians freedom of expression case against very similar laws there in 1988 (a three-musician limit in zoned areas of the city). Lester looked through a copy of the New York judgement which would now form part of any musicians' case here (if anybody would like a copy I could e-mail it).

Tim Walker, EFDSS' Chief Officer, also attended this meeting. May I suggest that, if you haven't already done so, those of you experiencing heavy-handed enforcement should contact Tim as soon as possible. EFDSS are now committed to following this through, and they will need all the information they can get so that a suitable case can be used as an example. EFDSS phone number is: 0207-485 2066.

Among other possible organisations, we are going to involve Jazz Services, which is dedicated solely to the promotion of UK jazz. Chris Hodgkins, Director of Jazz Services, has already been contacted by Tim Walker and will be meeting Tim and me in the next week or two to discuss strategy.

Incidentally, under the Human Rights Act anyone whose European Convention rights are directly affected by local authority enforcement can bring a case against the council. It doesn't have to be the individual who is being prosecuted or threatened with prosecution. In the case of live music in pubs, it therefore doesn't have to be the licensee (in any event his/her freedom of expression is not at issue). There is very clear guidance on all aspects of the Human Rights Act on the Home Office website: www.homeoffice.gov.uk

Once you have navigated to the Human Rights section, the document to look for is called 'Core guidance for public authorities: a new era of rights and responsibilities'. Paragraphs 30 and 59 are of particular relevance.

A day of protest is planned - the original June 13 date has been postponed due to the rearranged General Election. The event should now be in the last week of July. Again, please contact Tim Walker if you want to be involved. A public announcement and media briefing will take place as soon as the planning is finalised.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:47 AM

Kevin to address your point and indeed your earlier suggestion, I have recently written to Liberty, with the details of our treatment here. No reply as yet.

I understand there may be other similar types of action, that you describe, being proposed?

There is also supposed to be a protest day of action?

I think the point is not to rely on any one of these but for all interested parties, that is anyone, individuals or groups, that care about music and the abuse of basic human rights, to stand up now and take what action they can.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: harlow ivan
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 08:10 PM

I think your idea of a test case is on the right lines. We depend on the goodwill of landlords and it's them not us who get the stick if we fight the case on a specific session/pub. A complaint from Joe Bloggs on the grounds that he is being prevented from hearing his favourite! music could be the way to go. The presumtion is that Joe Bloggs is "passive"- that is he doesn't play sing or do anything that might classify him as a "performer".

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 07:29 PM

"That they could not make exceptions for one kind of music only." (From Bob Lloyd's last post)

And I should hope not - who wants a session that turns into a "What is Folk?" debate? Live music and I'd say, maybe unamplified music, are the only relevant criteria here.

I suppose what is needed is a test case - but no landlords are likely to risk their licenses, and the chances are any council coming up against one who was would probably quietly turn away. So either way, no test case, and the fact that the current law probably wouldn't stand up under human rights legislation would remain speculative.

Would it be possible in theory to have a test case which wasn't based on a council prosecuting anyone, but was founded on a member of the public seeking an injunction on a council which was pursuing a policy which was unreasonable and offended against human rights provisions?

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 07:06 PM

Putting this to top

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 01:12 PM

Councils should be made to realise that folk sessions are important to tourism. If Scarborough Council took that sort of attitude to sessions in Whitby or in Robin Hood's Bay it would seriously affect the many sessions that happen either during festivals at these places or indeed at other times. Perhaps in the North we are more aware of the value of 'summat for nowt'.

Les

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 01:02 PM

I think point 5 is just a nonsense 'nod' to Lord Bassam and the House of Lords.

What they mean is that if twenty musicians, who just happen to have their instruments with them, just happen to find themselves in a pub together, OK.

However if they wish to do the same next week, it will not be then considered as impromtu.

They must be a rough lot in Milton Keynes then?

I feel this is happening because of the attitude we have held for so long of, keeping one's head down and praying that they do not come for you next?

That attitude just encourages the bully-boy tactics that we are seeing here.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: GUEST,Bob Lloyd
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 08:15 AM

Thanks Hamish for confirming the case law cannot be taken as definitive. Andrew Smith MP, passed to me a letter from Isobel Garner, the directory of legal and community affairs for the council which cited the 1793 Clarke vs Serle case. I wrote to her before the meeting explaining why it could not be used in that way. I received no reply.

The meeting of the Health and Environment Committee received a report which stated baldly that there was case law to count members of the public as performers.

We know this is factually incorrect and Dr Manchester's confirmation is useful. The bottom line is that the councillors, knowing the relevant information, chose TO DO NOTHING.

Every member of the committee was circulated with information about the European legislation, with the information about case law, with information about how sessions work, with information about why it is so important to folk music. They were all fully informed about what they were entitled to decide upon.

The report from the officers made the points after quoting the legislation: (1) Milton Keynes had reversed their policy because it had become problematic controlling the numbers of people involved. (2) That they had phoned around other neighbouring authorities who all insisted on PELs. (3) That they could not make exceptions for one kind of music only. (4) That they had no proactive policy of checking up on folk music in pubs. (5) That they regarded "impromptu" folk sessions as not falling within the ambit of the PEL regime. (6) That the additional conditions imposed on pubs in order to get a licence is usually about having illuminated lights at the exits (and the power supply for them... )

In this way, they IGNORED the arguments put forward, and decided to DO NOTHING rather than consider changing their present policy. In addition, they have decided to maintain the same kind of prejudiced policy as neighbouring authorities only because the neighbours do it. They were given misleading advice by the officers about what they can decide upon and what they are entitled to do and given the impression that they cannot go against case law from 1793 - as far as I can tell, they were not informed that it dated from 1793 by the officers. Despite me telling him, the chairman of the committee seemed surprised when I reminded him about it on the phone.

Point 5 seems like a minor concession. I think they realise that they would have little chance of convicting anyone of this sort of offence but the threats can still put off any landlords/managers who would otherwise support the music.

People locally are undecided about the next step. The manager of the Old Ale House has now left and it may be that the session will simply move somewhere else until the problem arises again. Although we had lots of support for the petition, no-one seems at all keen to put pen to paper or make a phone call. Lots of verbal support, but no action. Given that situation I'm not sure what the next move is.

I'll be contacting the councillors again once I've received the copies of the reports from the chair of the committee - he promised to send them to me - haven't arrived yet.

There's some local concern that if we raise it in the press, sessions might be targetted in reaction. Personally I don't like hiding under threat! Maybe Mark Thomas C4 ought to have a poke at it!

One thing is certain. Until we force local authorities to take this issue seriously, there will continue to be threat to sessions. Incidentally, the fact that PELs wil disappear under the new legislation doesn't mean that councils will stop imposing silly conditions. The lazy ones will still try to apply standard conditions. When pubs apply for a premises licence, they will have to submit plans for what entertainments they want to have and the local panel will then determine conditions. There is no guarantee that the new legislation will not have similar restrictive conditions - it's just that it won't be legislative so we could challenge them locally.

All the best to everyone trying to get this stupid situation improved.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 01:34 PM

Click here. URGENT HELP REQUIRED. That is a thread to collect your thoughts, views or opinions, with intention of showing these to our council's.

A sort of Mudpetition.........

You do not have to be a UK resident, in fact in these days of 'tourist hungry authorities', how this policy is viewed from abroard would be more than useful.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 03:16 AM

I am sorry about the bad news from Oxford. I have looked into the precedent cited by them in support of counting members of the public as performers. According to the leading authority on PEL law, Dr Colin Manchester, neither Clarke v Searle (1793) or later cases such as McDowell v Maguire (1954) are 'determinative of the question of who counts as a performer under section 182 of the Licensing Act 1964'.

In other words, in respect of informal folk 'sessions' there is 'no decided authority' in support of Oxford, or indeed any other local authority to prevent informal folk sessions in pubs using case law precedent.

Following Dr Manchester's comments I have written this up in an article to be published in Jazzwise at the beginning of May (it's available from most W H Smiths).

I have also written to Oxford City Council asking for comment on Dr Manchester's analysis which would appear to undermine their position. So far no reply.

If it's any consolation to you I am today going to talk to Anthony Lester QC about the issue of local authority PEL enforcement and musicians' freedom of expression. Anthony Lester is a leading human rights lawyer, prime mover of the Human Rights Act here in the UK. He wrote some sections of the European Convention.

The meeting has been set up by Rupert Redesdale, Development Consultant for EFDSS. I am fully aware of the reservations some of you have about EFDSS. I hope their involvement in this meeting signals a new determination to find ways to bring an early end to this absurd and pointless restriction on all kinds of live music performance.

I will let you know how the meeting goes.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Nemesis
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 05:11 PM

I wonder if this is the same Andrew Cunningham I used to work with 25 years at Worthing Borough Council? If it is then tell him from me there is hardly any live music left in Worthing - except last night we packed in 100+ people into a pub desperate to hear live music (and it was a sublimely briliant evening: Bing Lyle, Richard Durrant, Tim Kent, Philippe Barnes, Andy Perry, and many, many other talented musicians). This was just about the only venue left in town with a music licence (45 in a town of 100,000) - we need more venues not less!!!

Cheers, Hilary Cook

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 05:31 AM

If councils do not wish to prevent participatory folk events taking place, they cannot maintain that members of the public are performers. For this means that they can hide behind and enforce a law that was never intended to prevent such events.

By their actions they are clearly demonstrating that they positivly intend to prevent participatory folk events.

They cannot have it both ways

They have a duty to encourage such events are are ignoring many other of their statatory duties

OCC's position that they have to continue to treat future events badly because it would be unfair on those that they have treated badly in the past, sounds like a bad Monty Python scetch.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 03:15 PM

Sorry if I have confused the issue. I was just trying to sum up what the issue was.

I don't want to be accused of acting irresponsily by putting the Email address here. I will supply it anyone who PMs me and wishes to speak to them.

Les the private party idea will work, your local authority will be able to supply what they will accept as such. You will have to exclude the public, so there is not much point in holding it a public place and may as well hold it at home. what's the matter with the Wild Rover anyway? Don't answer that.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM

On our regular weekly session the landlord has a sign on the door 'Private Party'. I doubt that it's any protection. Really it's only there so that the landlord can exclude anyone who comes in and demands the Wild Rover. But does anyone know that having the room as a private party precludes it from being a public entertainment?

Les

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 11:07 AM

Roger,

Regarding your post above of 06-Apr-01 - 06:53 AM. Is this what you want us to do? Can you post the e-mail address here? Do you want me to post it here as a clicky, like I do sometimers with my own?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:55 AM

 Subject to the licensee's responsibility to ensure safety and nuisance to others, you can express yourself verbally in a public house.

 Subject to the above and with the licensee's permission you can also express yourself musically in a public house, without further licensing, such as a Public Entertainment Licence, being required.

 This licensing legislation is for the safety and interests of all members of the public, at staged Public Entertainment with performers. It can really serve no useful purpose when, it is stretched to be used to against and to limit the freedom of expression of, those very same members of the public in establishments where, their safety and interests are already ensured by the council's other statutory duties.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:38 AM

Les, I think the time of keeping one's head down are over. It was not as if any of us had gone looking for trouble but trouble has found us anyway

I will be seeing my MP again today, pehaps we all should?

Bob that is sad news indeed and a little surprising, for they seemed to be showing common sense. Could you elaborate a bit? Does it mean that your session cannot now continue without a PEL?

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: GUEST,Bob Lloyd
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:16 AM

Unfortunate news from Oxford.

The local council Health and Environment Committee having received a representation from us, and after acknowledging that there should be no problem with music sessions, and also after having said that they were sympathetic to us, have received a recommendation from their officers that they should stick to the status quo.

Their arguments seems to have been that having phoned around and found that everyone else is requiring licences, so should they. They also checked up on the reports that Milton Keynes had a progressive policy - it seems they have reversed it.

They relied on case law from 1793 (that right!) Clarke vs Serle, which classified members of the public as performers, and then decided that having hassled some landlords to get licences which they did, it wouldn't be fair to allow others to have music without one. They stressed that they do no proactively seek out sessions but if there is a complaint - they will act. They ignored all the information about the European Convention on Human Rights, the principle of compatibility, and so on and adopted a pragmatic approach which was that since they'd been OK on this issue up till now, why change.

The councillors, rather than take an initiative and form policy which was why they were elected, chose to meekly follow what was poor advice from their officers.

Perhaps we will appeal - but it was pointed out to me that no-one else in the area had lifted a finger in support of the issue (apart from our petition of several hundred signatures!)and so perhaps people didn't feel too strongly.

One reason people are reluctant to put their heads over the parapet is that it might draw attention to sessions and cause problems. So samizdat folk sessions are OK because they stay invisible but try to encourage others to take part and that causes problems...

I hope the exaggerated reports of success in Oxford have not raised false hopes. It's clear from our experience in Oxford that we cannot assume that councillors, even if they support us, will have the courage to set policy according to their convictions when given advice from officers. Incidentally, the councillors didn't even bother to inform us of the outcome of the last meeting - we had to ferret around and find out ourselves.

It does seem amazing that after the councillors expressed such support for us, that they could be so swayed by reports (which we have still not seen!) from unelected officers, that they were willing to reverse the position they adopted at the previous meeting.

They won't stop the music and they don't seem intent on doing that anyway, and they are very unlikely to get away with prosecuting any of the unfortunate landlords who get threatened. I think what this shows is just how spineless some of our local politicians really are.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 07:46 AM

Bit difficult this, Shambles. Most of us try to keep our heads down just in case we start to draw the flak. It's quite useful that we have had two ex-Councillors come to our regular session, though. And our Council runs an annual Shanty Festival.

Usually the Police will only intervene if it's brought to their attention. They don't like dealing with these cases as they feel that the time they spend on them could be better spent. Especially with Home Office forms to fill in about crime rate and detection rate.

If you can't get a meeting with the Council, you could go to your local Councillors' surgery. Perhaps there is a member of your local Council who would be sufficiently interested to attend the session and find out the difference between a session and a gig? If the Council do get shirty then enlist the power of the local press. They hate it when they are publically ridiculed for taking a sledgehammer to a walnut. And have reserve pubs available if they start to serve papers. 'Cos then they've got to start all over again!

Cheers, Les

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:53 AM

Time for an update on things locally, I think.

In short 'zilch'.

The council are still strongly maintaining that 'members of the public are performers'.

To demonstrate the effect that this policy will have I have requested that a meeting with the council members, via the officers,councillors and my local MP, but have yet to get an answer.

I am seen locally as a bit of a 'crank' lone voice and thus easy to ignore.

Allowing for nuisance to others, which the licensee can sort out. I feel that if one does not need any additional licensing to enable to express yourself, in conversation in a pub, nothing further is required to express youself musically.

I would be grateful for any help. Opinions to the council from other parts of the world may help?

If you wish to write and express these opinions to the council, especially if you have knowledge of how more enlightened councils deal with it, send a personal message to me and I will provide the Email address of the man in charge.

There is a national protest being organised, I will post the details here, when I know more.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: menzze
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 07:11 AM

Sorry for a mistake in the one above. It's not the NPD it is the Republikaner who are in BW's parliament.

But we've thrown 'em out this time

No more Nazis in BW's parliament. I long for the day when we can say this for all of Germany.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: menzze
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 03:56 PM

These "certain songs" mentioned in the answer of the MoJ are Nazi and Fashist songs. As you know we had our special problems with them in the past and nowadays the number of Neonazis is frightendly rising, especially in the eastern German countries. They dug out these old Nazi stuff and it's disgusting to see and hear them sing these songs which deal with killing Jews and raising a new Nazi Reich.
We have an election on march 25 for the local parliament of Baden-Würtemberg(a country in the south of Germany).At the moment the NPD, a party of the extreme right is in with 5%. I really hope the events of the recent past have wakened the mind of the people not to vote for them again and prevent them from returning into parliament.

We had it once, we don't want nor need them again.

menzze

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 04:02 PM

Re: the "certain" German songs:

The law is ambiguous because there are an awful lot of German songs which are offensive/racist/right-wing, but not blatant about it - just as a lot of Irish songs are written to sound inoffensive to the English, but get right up the noses of the opposing factions.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 04:01 PM

No need to apolgise for caring about this issue. I have been beginning to think that not many people did. The total stupidity of this situation just seems to be generally accepted here in the UK?

That 'dusty' legal precedent may possibly demonstrate the need for some licence but not a PEL of course. The PEL was not a requirement in 1793. Maybe a sharp sword or a good horse was?

The point too is that their are many licences already involved in the year 2001 to establish the safety of the public places where the music is being made.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: menzze
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 11:20 AM

What about the rest of the EU countries? How is this handled in Holland, Belgiumm, Danmark, Sweden, France, Austria,Spain,Portugal,Greece, Italie, Ireland(sorry if I've missed some)? I would like to know what kind of experiences there are in the rest of the world.

For example two friends and I went to a pub nearby, run by a friend of ours. He did not know us comming with our instruments neither his guests.We had a session up to 5 o'clock in the morning(locked the door around 1.30 to keep the police outside)and nobody felt upset or deranged by our music by loved it and joined in spontaneously.

To me even the thought of trying to forbid such happenings is an attack on my personal freedom I will fight with all means I have. They have picked my driving license but they'll never steal the freedom and right to make music together with other people from me as long as I live. It may sound a bit pathetic,please get me right, but it's the way I feel.

menzze

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 09:44 AM

Many thanks Snuffy, I hadn't seen that.

But the legal point surely still is whether a session constitutes "entertainment" or "a public performance". What is so different about a group of people sharing their love of music together for their own benefit rather than that of an "audience" than a group of people engaged in an animated and loud conversation about, let's say, football in the local pub. Isn't the distinction legally one of intent. In the case of a paid gig, there is clearly an intent to entertain a audience. In the case of a session, the intent is one of enjoying one's hobby with others of a similar mind rather than providing "entertainment" or "a performance"?

Again, probably all this has been discussed before ad infinitum and, if that's the case, my apologies.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 09:32 AM

Mcmoo - See shambles posting of 13th Feb, quoting a council solicitor

It has long been established that a Licence is required not just where music is provided by performers to entertain the public but where members of the public themselves participate in music making (Clarke-v- Searle 1793).

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 09:18 AM

I haven't been following the full debate and don't live in the UK any more but just a thought....maybe it's been mentioned before and my apologies if that is the case.

Surely there's a distinction between a "gig" where musicians are paid to provide "entertainment" and a session where normal punters are gathering together in a pub unpaid merely to enjoy their hobby in each others' company. Does that fall under the legal definition of "entertainment"?

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 08:56 AM

So apparently no licensing problem in Germany - just the normal regulations about public disorder, noise etc. This bit is interesting though (rough translation)

"The singing of certain songs - irrespective of the number of persons taking part - may fall foul of the criminal law, for example because the lyrics have an insulting or derogatory content, or would incite to hatred or violence."

Is there a list of banned songs in Germany, or do they just act on an 'ad hoc' basis?

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: menzze
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 06:27 AM

To McGrath

I had sent a request on this subject to the German ministry of justice to see wether there are any rules or laws concerning this thing in Germany, because you've asked if anybody knows how this is handled in the rest of Europe. I recieved the answer today and I post it here now for you. I'm a bit in a hurry so I found no time to translate it into English. If necessary to translate it for you tell me and can do it within the next few days.

Here is the e-mail from the German ministry of justice:

Betreff: Ihre Anfrage vom 12. Februar 2001 Von: "Glowatzki, Lydia" An: "'[e-mail]'"

Datum: 06.03.01 16:48 erweiterten Header anzeigen

Sehr geehrter Herr Mendrzyk,

per e-mail vom 12. Februar 2001 baten Sie um Mitteilung, ob es in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland aus Gründen der öffentlichen Sicherheit und Ordnung verboten sei, sich in einer Gastwirtschaft spontan zum Singen und Musizieren in einer Gruppe von mehr als zwei Personen zusammenzufinden.

Hierzu kann ich Ihnen mitteilen, dass bundesrechtliche Vorschriften dieses Inhalts - soweit ersichtlich - nicht existieren. Allerdings fällt das Polizei- und Ordnungsrecht in die Gesetzgebungskompetenz der Länder. Die Abwehr von Gefahren für die öffentliche Sicherheit ist mithin in den einzelnen Bundesländern durch Landesgesetze und -verordnungen unterschiedlich geregelt. Ein generelles Verbot der von Ihnen angesprochenen Art ist mir jedoch aus diesem Bereich genauso wenig bekannt wie eine entsprechende europarechtliche Vorschrift.

Einschränkungen des spontanen Singens und Musizierens in Gaststätten könnten sich somit allenfalls unter dem Aspekt der ebenfalls landesrechtlich geschützten Sonn- und Feiertagsruhe, der Nachtruhe sowie generell des Lärmschutzes von Anwohnern ergeben. Die Verursachung unzulässigen Lärms kann zudem gemäß § 117 OWiG unter bestimmten Voraussetzungen eine bußgeldbewehrte Ordnungswidrigkeit darstellen.

Zu erwähnen ist schließlich auch, dass das Absingen bestimmter Liedtexte - unabhängig von der Anzahl der beteiligten Personen - gegen Strafrechtsnormen verstoßen kannn, etwa weil die Texte beleidigenden oder verunglimpfenden Inhalts sind oder zu Hass und Gewalt aufstacheln.

Darüber hinaus ist selbstverständlich der Hausrechtsinhaber der jeweiligen Gaststätte befugt, das Singen und Musizieren im Gastraum zu unterbinden und bei hartnäckiger Zuwiderhandlung ggf. sogar ein Hausverbot auszusprechen, zu dessen Durchsetzung - falls erforderlich - auch polizeiliche Hilfe in Anspruch genommen werden kann.

In der Hoffnung, Ihnen mit diesen Hinweisen weitergeholfen zu haben, verbleibe ich mit freundlichen Grüßen

Im Auftrag Glowatzki

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 01:59 PM

The following from Hamish.................

I just want to thank you for taking the time to forward those invaluable statements about your experience of public entertainment licensing and to assure you that they will continue to be put to good use.

As you know, I made an edited compilation for e-mailing purposes. This was sent to the Arts Council, Department of Culture, Media and Sport, and to EFDSS at Cecil Sharp House, musicians and others with an interest, in advance of the meeting held yesterday by the Arts Council.

While the Arts Council's involvement is more for the long-term benefit of local live music, and other performing arts, the powerful criticisms of local authority enforcement contained in your statements can be put to excellent use now. They can and will be used to back up continued lobbying with both the Local Government Association and individual councils.

I don't want to raise premature hopes, but there really does seem to be a new sense of understanding and commitment within the Arts Council - far more understanding in fact than has been demonstrated (so far) by the Department of Culture. The Home Office, represented by Andrew Cunningham, now Head of Liquor Licensing for England and Wales, was also very amenable. But while all the signs are that a new licensing Bill will bring an end to much petty and very damaging enforcement by local authorities, it seems that the new law is very unlikely to come into effect until 2003 at the earliest. It is just such an enormous Bill, superseding at least half-a-dozen other pieces of legislation.

Today I will be going to EFDSS at Cecil Sharp House to discuss with Tim Walker (new Chief Officer), and their new Development Officer, Rupert Redesdale, what form a lobbying campaign will take, and the possibility of a musical 'day of protest' to draw media attention to the extremes of PEL enforcement and the absurdity of the current laws - as demonstrated by your own accounts. I know that many folk musicians have expressed doubts about the past efforts of EFDSS, but my experience over the last couple of weeks suggests that they are now committed to an active campaign.

Once again, thank you. Once today's meeting is over I am sure you will be hearing more from EFDSS, and that this will be the beginning of a campaign with real teeth.

Yours sincerely Hamish Birchall

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 10:20 AM

Mc Grath of Harlow Tourist Information Ofices. Local Council's part in all this.

In order to get the local councils on our side we need to educate them that TIC's can play their part in making a town more attractive. At the end of the day, tourists can go back to the camp site/hotel and blob or they can try a free show put on by damn good mucisions (and bodhran players as well). If they don't like it, it costs them nothing to find out.

TIC's are run by local councils. Some TIC's are net aware - just. The barrier is getting TIC's to realise it is better to suggest a fine oak beamed pub with real ale and a session than any old oak beamed pub with real ale. That, I put it to you, is a much harder task than tweaking the councilors noses. Gloucester is lucky, arch folkie Terry Haines is Mayor, the TIC are helpful - I wonder why?.

TIC's are a mixed bunch and given that they shouldn't seek information but disseminated it, some do a pretty abysmal job. I know because I give them my URL - cresby.com and a paper precis of folk stuff in their area when in their town. A year later you can be told there is no info, never given any and when pushed will reluctantly find the wallet/card index labelled "music" (that they most certainly don't have) and grudgingly update the data you give them. I always ask first and inform 2nd because occasionally they know more "locally" than an information junkie like me, but they clam up if you are knowledgeable. Given that, what does Joe Public do when he asks the question? Tell them to look a bit harder? "No" is easier than "I'll look" and they may have part time staff. Some are wonderful, those have a folkie on the staff!

Ireland? they have the "folk" music PR battle sewn-up - all over the world.

Perhaps we should raise the profile of folk just a bit by informing the TIC's ourselves - regularly. If we mean business the councils may be more wary than bullish.

Yours - The Red Boran.

a quiet bodhran player! PS thanks Hamish for info on Ale House - any others you can confirm in Oxford?

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 04:35 AM

Public performance with even one performer requires a public entertainment licence in any premises that are not covered by the Licensing Act 1964 (unless it is part of a religious service).

For years local authorities have complained about the two-performer exemption in licensed premises (Section 182). They argued, consistently, that all public entertainment should be licensed. This is effectively what will happen in the new regime. On the other hand excessive fees and conditions, which have caused most of the problems for local gigs, should end. The Government proposed setting low licence fees centrally, and that public safety requirements should not exceed the requirements of existing safety legislation.

But it will take more than a change in the law to alter the mind-set of petty regulation that characterises some licensing departments.

But now that the Arts Council (and very recently EFDSS) has decided to take the entertainment licensing reform seriously, I believe that in time this will ensure that local gigs are treated with the respect they deserve.

Hamish

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 02:35 AM

Good point but as far as most official thinking goes, it is the introduction of that great evil music, that is the problem. I pity anyone trying to do anything constructive with dance, for that is even a greater evil.

Everyone is an expert on music and performance it seems?

These are some of the frustrations that I have found, in dealing with officialdom. The idea that music presents some great danger, and must be controlled at all costs, is mow too engrained.

1. No matter how well you may present the case, you are contesting an official action that has already been taken. The person listening will be looking all the time for the reason why this has happened. They will not be happy until they can find one and are wary of agreeing to even the most basic points for fear of being compromised.

2. Everyone it would appear, is an expert on musical matters and performance. When it comes to the nature of participatory folk events it is clear that everyone is not and that this is the root cause of the problem. Unfortunately they do not appear to accept that you may be in a position to inform them. People that have had some musical experience usually understand very easily.

3. You are perceived as making an entire case out of the meaning of one word, when you are in fact suffering from such an action being taken. Because this has been taken and endorsed legally, it follows that there must be a perfectly sound reason for it.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 03:56 PM

It's occurred to me that public entertainmnet isn't just music; a stand-up comic giving a performance would also be classed as entertainment.

So this would imply that anyone telling a joke in a pub - which by definition is open to the public and therefore "clearly public in that it takes place on premises which are open to the public" should also have a Public Entertainment Licence. And what about outside in the streets? You can't get more "open to the public" than that.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 05:07 AM

Not that I am laughing much

Received the following from WPBC's Licensing Manager. 14th February (my only Valentine that day).

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) act 1982
PLACES OF ENTERTAINMENT
THE …. ……. … PORTLAND

A copy of your letter to Peter Gilmore dated 7 February 2001 has been passed to me in order for me to respond to two specific points:

The licensee of … …. …. Applied for a Public Entertainment Licence on 5 February 2001. If no objections are received during the 28 day statutory advertisement/consultation period a full licence Will be issued on or shortly after 5 March 2001. This full licence will then enable the licensee to hold music evenings legitimately.

I can confirm that the Public Enforcement Officer is not scheduled to revisit the premises within the next month unless in response to complaint.

This may appear to solve the problem locally but may not do so for traditional folk music events in general?

For example:

1 If the application fails (for example if it is considered as unsuitable for loud amplified bands), the session would not be legal and the principal that participatory folk music events were Public Entertainment and that those involved we performers, would have been established.

2 If the application succeeds, it may turn out that as the licensee can now "hold music evenings legitimately", they may chose to do just that and arrange a more profitable musical event on that evening? One designed to attract customers rather than one that may risk driving them away.

These possible outcomes are good examples of what happens when free participatory musical expression is caught up in legislation designed for paid public entertainment?

Hopefully the new legislation will recognise this? Maybe it is time that those that love traditional folk music demanded that it does?

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 03:00 AM

I remain convinced that non-UK folk, think we are playing a huge joke on them?

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 02:15 AM

It may not be the best thing to publicly give out the lady's name and where she can be contacted.

But if you wish to make your views known to her, a personal message to me, will enable me to provide you with an E Mail address.

She did not do quite such a good job of answering many of the other points that I raised, concerning the human rights of those involved and the council's other responsibilties..... She chose to ignore these.

I have asked that she does address these and await her response.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 02:06 AM

It is a sad document yes, but do not be too hard on the young lady in question, she was only doing her job.

As the council's legal officer, she was asked to provide legal support for the action of the enforcement officer

She did a very good job of that.

The problem was caused by the lack of control or guidance given to the enforcement officer. They have made a mistake and been able to get that mistake officialy condoned.

It shows the extent of their power.

Just their expressed opinion of as me as a performer, has made my music making illegal. I have been convicted and punished, without any opportunity to speak in my defence.

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 01 - 08:43 PM

You left out the name and address of the creep who sent that classic epistle Shambles.

But it's a valuable text. Needs wider distribution.

Clearly, under this interpretation, church services with hymns are very much under threat since a church service "is clearly public in that it takes place on premises which are open to the public." And I have never heard of any exemption under the PEL requirements for church services.

You could ask his advice about that - after all you could well find yourself asked to play in a church service some time, and you want to keep in the right side of the law. (Or if you've got a friendly minister, you could get them to write asking the question.)

With local (and form that matter general) elections due in a couple of months I think whoever decided to send that letter could come to regret it...

Subject: RE: Sessions under threat in UK?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Feb 01 - 08:03 PM

The end (getting licensed premises to ontain PELs), would appear to justify the means.

Making music illegal, the trampling of basic human rights and the general bad feeling generated, is not important compared to the enforcement officers responsibilty to ensure that premises without a PEL do not gain commercial advantage over those with a PEL.

A consideration certainly, but surely not the most important one?

Is this really their responsibility anyway?