BS: Celtic melancholy

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 May 02 - 11:52 AM

This statement from the link above would also hint at early origins for Ogham..

In keeping with Druidic concepts, each of the Ogham's twenty letters bears the name of a tree. A-Ailim (Elm), B-Bithe (Birch), C-Coll (Hazel), for example. This is not surprising until it is realized that not all of the twenty plants of the Ogham were found in the post-Christian Celtic world of the British Isles. This fact would seem to lend some credence to the theory that Ogham predates the first century AD. According to Curtis Clark, "If one were to pick a region where the plants of the Ogham were best represented, it would be the valley of the Rhine River, home of the Iron Age La Tené culture that is regarded to be ancestral to the Celts."

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 08 May 02 - 10:08 AM

Edward Davies work, 'Celtic Researches on the Origin, Traditions and Language of the Ancient Britons' (1804)offers some very strong evidence and a decent argument, once you get over the difficulty of the archaic writing style, of ancient writing of the Celts in an alphabet that is distinct from yet related to the Greek and Latin, and predates the adoption of the Roman letters in the 3rd c. One must question a lot of the books premise, that the diffusion of the sons of Noah after the flood can account for a transmission of language from that used by Adam and Eve in the garden of eden, for example. But the ancient sources cited are pretty clear is discussing the use and existence of Gaulish, and other Celtic alphabets before the conquest of Gaul by Caesar. Davies example is pretty good, that because there was an imprecation against using leters to write things down in the Celtic/Druidical society both implies that the society knew of and used a system of letters, and to say otherwise would be like saying that because the Protestants and others refrain from using icons and religious pictures in their worship that the society had no knowledge of or practice of painting or visual arts. Interesting read if you can find it somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,macca
Date: 08 May 02 - 07:02 AM

Hey Hrothgar, re Johnson's high road to England. Back in seventy-three when I was working in Scotland and applied for promotion, I was told that company policy meant I would have to go to another branch then be transferred back in a new position. Almost thought this was fair enough, till they said I would probably have to go to Huddersfield. I immediately jumped on the trusty old high horse and said that I'd never go as far as England just for promotion over my fellow downtrodden man. So I emigrated and ended up here in Orstrilia........ How are the high and mighty fallen. No wonder I'm melancholic.

Oh and PS, I believe it was Johnson who said that oats were fed to the horses in England and the man in SCotland, and Boswell (is that right ?) responded with, "where would you find such horses... and such men"

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 May 02 - 04:45 PM

Well, Guest this site indicates that extant examples of Ogham date from after the onset of the Christian era, and says that "speculation exists" that the form may pre-date 100 AD. So, in my humble opinion, what you have, Guest, is your own theory regarding Celts originating a written alphabet pre-dating the monks, and therefore I will stand challenged, not "corrected", in my assertion. If you have concrete evidence you can present, it may change my opinion.

And I appreciate your view of Markale as a "Celtic Romantic". My contention is that there is nothing on the U of T page that flies in the face of my earlier summation of his theories, particularly in the "Celtic History" section on the U of T site. In fact, that section bears out my basic contention regarding the speculative nature of Celtic History....the primary sources for information on the U of T site are contemporary Roman historians who perceived the Celts on the whole as deranged madmen, and while they were often able to describe attributes of behavior in battle (which they may have observed), their speculations regarding custom, history, origins etc must be approached with at least as much scepticism as Markale's assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 02 - 04:09 PM

I already have corrected you, but you failed to acknowledge that, EJ. First on the "no substantial written literature" remark you made 06-May-02 - 09:13 PM. You responded to that post with "I believe that I am right in that the Celtic Tribes evolved no written alphabet of their own." Both Bill Kennedy and I corrected you on that one.

Malcolm is right, Jean Markale is not considered very legit by most Celtic Studies and Irish Studies scholars. Rather, he is grouped in with the Celtic Romantic types.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 May 02 - 03:57 PM

Guest, thanks for the U of Texas site. I am familiar with most of the material there, but a re-hash is always helpful. I'm not sure if there's anything there that refutes what I said, or that Markale said for that matter, but if you are aware of some specific instances where I reveal my ignorance, I would appreciate your pointing them out in what I'm sure will be a kind and constructive manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 02 - 03:50 PM

Good on youse there Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: DonD
Date: 07 May 02 - 02:49 PM

From the title of this thread I certainly didn't expect it to Briton my day when I Pict it to read, nor did I hope to be sent into Gaels of laughter with jokes about what Scotsmen wear underneath their Celts but I did think that someone would find an Angle to bring an aspect of Saxon the subject. Are there any more puns to be found or did I Ogham all?

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 02 - 02:25 PM

You aren't denigrating Celtic or Irish heritage and culture Lonesome EJ, just demonstrating your ignorance about it.

Try reading some legitimate history. Here is a reading list to start with from UTexas:

http://wwwvms.utexas.edu/~jdana/history/celtic.html

Not exactly what I would call a paucity of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 02 - 01:37 PM

Every culture on the planet has transmitted their traditions and history orally rather than in writing. Writing as a convention for telling histories other than the official histories, is a brand new idea, not an ancient one.

The only history early writing tells are sycophantic histories by official writers glorifying the ruling elites.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 May 02 - 12:54 PM

Right, Bill. I hope I'm not seeming to denigrate Celtic or Irish heritage or culture here. What I am talking about are the difficulties inherent in reconstructing the history of a culture which was largely tribal, and whose record has been principally transmitted through oral tradition. The same difficulties beset those who seek to trace the history and culture of many North American Indian groups prior to arrival of Europeans. The fact that we may not know the tribal history of the Cherokee Nation does not diminish the richness of its mythology and traditions.

And as far as Irish Literature goes, few countries can match the quality and quantity of material produced by the Irish in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 02 - 12:41 PM

Welsh and Breton employ the Roman alphabet for writing. The oldest extant Welsh texts are from the 8th cent. A.D.

The Irish language is also sometimes referred to as Irish Gaelic and/or Erse. The history of Irish as a literary language falls into three periods: Old Irish (7th–9th cent. A.D.), Middle Irish (10th–16th cent.), and Modern Irish (since the 16th cent.). The alphabet employed today for Irish can be called a variant or a derivative of the Roman alphabet that took shape about the 8th cent. A.D. It has 18 letters: 13 consonants and 5 vowels. The oldest extant Irish texts are inscriptions written in the ogham script. These texts date back to the 5th cent. A.D. or perhaps earlier.

The earliest Irish manuscript, the Würzberg Codex, dates back to A.D. 700. The Amra Choluim Chille is believed to be a genuine sixth century manuscript and the Senchas Mór has also been placed in the sixth century by most experts.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 07 May 02 - 12:28 PM

the Ogham alphabet was quite an invention, I would say, though certainly not used for literature, which we all know was in the bardic, and therefore oral, tradition. But the marginalia in monastic manuscripts was certainly written in what we now call Old Irish and Middle irish, and it is a distinct alphabet designed for the Irish language, and not necessarilly derivative of the Latin.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 May 02 - 12:03 PM

Good point, Guest. I meant historical documentation, like that of Pliny, that would make Celtic history easy to plot. Certainly "Cattle Raid of Cooley" and other like works, even though largely written down after the coming of Christianity to Ireland, are of ancient origin. But I believe that I am right in that the Celtic Tribes evolved no written alphabet of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 02 - 08:08 AM

No substantial written literature? Ireland has the oldest written vernacular literature in Europe.

Why is it that the question of ancestry and race (and attributing random human qualities to them) is such an obsession with the English?

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Hrothgar
Date: 07 May 02 - 06:27 AM

As Dr Johnson said, the finest prospect a Scotsman can behold is the high road to England.

:-))

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,macca
Date: 06 May 02 - 11:39 PM

Meanwhile, back with melancholy... I always thought that the biggest single reason for the average Scot (if there is such a thing) suffering (which infers a degree of self-imposed misery.. we're no' happy unless we're greetin') from melancholy is not that Scotland and the weather makes him dour, it's the fact that he has to go to England to get away from it.

In extreme cases he has to go even further, say to the Americas or Down Under or one of the other colonies established by the English out of the goodness of their altruistic hearts purely to alleviate suffering in Scotland....

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 May 02 - 09:13 PM

Efforts to recreate Celtic History and Culture must of necessity be somewhat speculative, falling closer to Cultural Anthropology than the kind of History, based on artifacts and written history, of the Greeks and Romans. Some of this owing to the fact that the Celts were a relatively unsophisticated people, scattered in tribes across a very diverse topography, and evolving no substantial written literature. Some of this is due to the steamroller effect of Roman Civilization and Conquest. Markale has used oral tradition, distribution of artifacts, and linguistic remnants to construct a theory. Whether one accepts the theory or not, it is based on comprehensive scholarship, and is well documented in his book.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 May 02 - 08:42 PM

I wouldn't consider Markale a reliable authority. Too many assumptions, not enough solid evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 02 - 08:33 PM

And the English have "wistful", which is a hard word to translate. Different languages and different cultures channel the moods differently, but we all of us share them. Trying to tie things like this to fantasies like "race" are a waste of time at best. And a lot more damaging than just a waste of time, at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 May 02 - 07:26 PM

Bill, thanks for showing us that piece on Celtic DNA.

Linguist and historian Jean Markale,in his book The Celts uses common words in the remaining Celtic languages (Cornish,Welsh,Breton,Irish,Manx,and Scots Gaelic) to identify place-names throughout Europe,to gauge the extent of Celtic settlement which reached it's peak just prior to the expansion of the Roman Empire.He uses coins found in archaeological digs throughout the continent,whose characteristic Celtic design includes concentric circles,chevrons,and triskels, to further determine the presence of a Celtic Culture.That it was a tribal culture,disunified and with war commonplace among the separate segments,does not negate the fact that there existed a commonality of culture,language,and likely of racial characteristics among the people we now call the Celts.Markale believes that these people migrated out of the area south of Jutland,over thousands of years supplanting the aboriginal inhabitants of Europe. Markale believes that these aboriginal people,the Tuatha Danaan of Irish legend as an example,were the monument builders who erected Stonehenge and the hundreds of standing stones and stone circles still found throughout Europe.These people were driven to the fringes of Europe,its wildernesses and Western Islands,and became the gods and heroes of the Celtic myths.

After the collapse of the Roman Empire,the Celts in turn were driven to their island,peninsula, and mountain sanctuaries by the westward migration of the Germanic tribes.In Britain,for example,the western and northern extremes of Ireland,Wales,Cornwall and Scotland were the last vestiges of the British Isles held by the Celts as the waves of Saxons and Angles swept in from the east. There is additional evidence that this westward mass migration also influenced a Celtic exodus to Armorica,or Brittany.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,mr happy
Date: 06 May 02 - 05:04 PM

bill,

not long ago i watced a programme on channel 4 uk about the genetic links between all the humans on earth

there was a lot of science but the conclusion was that we're all related to each other as homo sapiens regardless of later adaptations leading to physical racial characteristics

i also saw a survey on another tv item about how much viking genes existed in the present day in the wirral peninsula [cheshire 'n wirral counties] of north west england. apart from some links in neston, there were scarcely any, despite the fact that almost all settlements in this area have place names linked to scandinavia.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 06 May 02 - 04:51 PM

this from London Times Sunday December 2, 2001, p. 26

GENETIC TESTS REVEAL THE HIDDEN CELTS OF ENGLAND

John Elliott and Tom RObbins

The Celts of Scotland and Wales are not as unique as some of them like to think. New research has revealed that the majority of Britons living in the South of England share the same DNA as their Celtic counterparts. The findings, based on the DNA analysis of more than 2000 people, poses the strongest challenge yet to the conventional historical view that the ancient Britons were forced out of most of England by hordes of Anglo-Saxon invaders. It suggests that far from being purged and forced to retreat into Wales, Cornwall and Scotland when the Anglo-Saxons invaded in the 5th century, many ancient Britons remained in England. The study, conducted by geneticists at University College London, found that as many as three-quarters of the men tested in some parts of the south of England have the same Y-chromosome as the ancient Britons or Celts, rather that that of the Anglo-Saxons. Overall, the scientists found that between 50% and 75% of those tested in parts of southern England were directly descended from Celts, implying that they had survived the Anglo-Saxon invasioin. In Scotland the proportion of those with Celtic ancestry was found to be little different from the population of southern England. "The evidence is quite strong that there is a substantial indigenous component remaning in England," said Professor David Goldstein, who led the research. "Modern genetics has opened up a powerful window on the past. We can now trace the movements of peoples and address questions that have proved difficult to answer through history and archeology alone." The study, commissioned by BBC2 as part of its Blood of the Vikings series, which concludes on Tuesday, was designed to assess the impact of Norwegian and Danish Vikings, as well as Anglo-Saxons, on the British population. Researchers took swabs of saliva from 2000 people in 30 locations around Britain, and from 400 people in Norway, Denmark, and Schleswig-Holstein, the area in northern Germany identified by the team as a homeland of the Anglo-Saxons. Those taking part had to have lived in the area for at least two generations. Scientists then examined the Y-chromosome, which is passed unchanged down the male line of a family and is thus not altered by intermarriage. The analysis showed that 60% of the men tested on Orkney were descended from Norwegian Vikings, as well as 30% of those in the Hebrides and 15% on the Isle of Man. On the mainland, the survey found that 70% of those tested in York were from the continental European groups rather than the indiginous population, suggesting that the ANglo-Saxon invaders made far more of an impact on the Celts in the north of England. Only 10% of those tested in Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, confirming that it has retained an almost exclusively Celtic population. In Recent years the fate of the Celts in England has become hotly debated. Many historians have come to doubt the traditional story about the flight of the Celts from southern England, which was based largely on the account of the 6th-century historian Gildas. "There are various schools of thought ranging from near genocide (of the Celts) to almost total survival," said Patrick Sims-Williams, professor of Celtic studies at the University of Wales. "There could have been mass flight as well-it's partly a matter of scholarly fashion, coming and going from generation to generation."

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,mr happy
Date: 06 May 02 - 04:07 PM

mr douglas [are you from the isle of person?[pc correct!]]

i've celtic extraction, in fact most of my teeth seem to be extracting themselves voluntarily.[because i enjoy a lot of whisky]

however, i wanted to say that i enjoy a lot of whisky too, and despite being some percentage english, beer really doesn't hit the spot.

when i was depressed, i couldn't afford to drink much [economic reasons] but when i felt better , whisky especially is really good for singing in company and creating lots of laughs. its possible to be melancholy & happy simultaneously if you don't take yourself tooo seriously.

o no, i've drunk all the wixy 'n smoked all the fags- lack a day i'll have to force down some gin 'n roll ups

ce la vie!

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 06 May 02 - 01:06 PM

A few things struck me as I read this thread, the most important one being that there is a big difference between melancholy and depression. SO back to the question of melancholy (alcoholism is an entirely different issue, re: genetic, & social influences). Whether or not there is a 'natural Celtic disposition' toward melancholy I would argue 'no'. And certainly no one culture has a particular monopoly on this emotion. But some cultures exhibit more of an aesthetic and emotional appreciation of melancholy/nostalgia than others, like the Irish that deals with emigration, foreign domination, hardship and famine, etc. The Welsh have Hieraeth. The Scots Ceanalas. The Portuguese Saudade. The Qawalli poets like Rumi and others, & like the Hindu Bhakti sects, write of the feeling of seperation from the Divine. The Japanese have literature dealing with sorrow measured in 'so many wet sleeves'. And there are many others. It all goes back to the idea that the only true poetry is poetry that has to do with loss. I can't remember how that has been stated better, aphoristically, or by whom, but I agree with it. If you're human, and have a heart, you've experienced the loss of something, and the longing for a reconnection, & re-experience of unity with that something. Some say that longing is at the root of all religious/ mystical experience. And the Irish as I've said (if that is what the author of the thread meant by Celtic) certainly respect and cherish thier poetry of loss.

Musically, there is that minor scale thing. It does seem to be a large part of the Irish music tradition, and it does affect ones response. It feels melancholy to the ear.

As to Celts, there are such people, no matter what others have said in this thread contrariwise. They probably began in central/east asia and spread throughout Europe and the British Island, north as far as Denmark and South as far as France. There were certainly various tribes of Celtic language speakers, like the Belgae, and it is just as certain that the Romans probably grouped many diverse Celtic language speaking tribes under the umbrella of one tribe knwon as the Celtae. But there were certainly a couple of invasions of Celtic speaking people into the Islands at various times, the so-called P-Celts and Q-Celts (a language differentiation, certainly as has been stated by others) and it it just as true that there is probably no pure strain of such after all these years and invasions of Vikings, Angles, Saxons, etc. But there well may be some vestige of pure Celtic-ness in the older poetry and oldest music, that survive in various forms of airs and tunes that we recognize today as Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Aodh
Date: 06 May 02 - 10:39 AM

"Usquebah is Scots Gaelic?" which Island is that from? Lewis probably they've always said strange things up there! The Scots Gaelic for whisky is "Uisge Beatha". And on the topic of celtic melancholy, the Scots Gaels do have Ceanalas which isn't homesicknes, but is!?!

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 09:08 PM

Argumentative, yes, but worth fighting over, or getting mad about, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Deni
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:54 PM

Thanks greyeyes. That's exactly what I meant. how the atmosphere at that singaround would have been ruined if someone had rounded on the breathless listener and told them they were incorrect. They would have got the impression that folkies are argumentative, and they are not, are they? Now don't all rush at once chaps... Cheers Deni

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:00 PM

I was going to comment on this thread, but I am just feeling to low to bother. I think I will go back to the studio and cry into my microphone. Gee, I am even too depressed to make a plug for the band...
almost...
which is...
as you all know...
SORCHA DORCHA!
Soon to be availble on the NEW RECORD LABLE
Hearthside Music Cooperative!
Ah the plug go matic strikes again!
Why I am feeling right chipper, chuft even!
It must be the Rom side of me!
Cheer up brother and sister Celts!
Nilamuid Sasta, the first CD from Sorcha Dorcha is on the way sooner or later!
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 05:24 PM

Thanks again Sorcha.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 03:11 PM

I didn't read the entire biblio, but yes indeed on Geoff of Mon! I noticed John and Caitlin Matthews are on the biblio, and they are in the same class, as far as I am concerned...........

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 03:09 PM

Bruce, way down at the bottom of the page is Bibliography Still no actual footnotes, but I found it with Google Search by asking for "Pictish language" with the quotes. There were several other hits, if you want to try it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 02:40 PM

Sorcha, that first click on you gave is more along the lines of what I wanted, but references are't given. Some things are trivial, and much is questionable (I don't like taking info from Geoffrey of Monmouth's 'History' because one can't isolate facts in that great mass of fiction.) On the whole I rather like it, and wish I had the references he used to get his facts, or at least carefully thought out speculations.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Greyeyes
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:29 PM

But Deni's point is if people who aren't really into folk music are comfortable believing that songs like WMT are Celtic, why spoil their fun? And if Deni can describe the music they perform as generic Celtic, and everybody understands what they mean, why not do that?

No doubt Fergal Keane is aware of the dubious nature of the term Celtic, but in using the phrase "natural Celtic disposition to melancholy" most people will understand what he meant by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bruce O
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 03:15 AM

We've had several discussion here on "Wild Mountain Thyme" and "Braes o' Balquither". Origins seem to be a little earlier the 1750 in Scotland, when the original tune wa first published. I put Jack Campin's early text here, and I think we also have Robert Tannahill's version, which the McPeake's in Ireland revised. Celtic origin it ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Deni
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 02:05 AM

alice

Althouh lots of people don't like the term celtic I should think people are free to describe themselves as they want to. I've never felt as stirred by art and craft as I am by ancient Celtic artifacts, and it would be too pedantic to go in to long explanations of the kind of art I like, when I can just say Celtic and everyone knows what I mean.

Also, we were sat in a singaround at Teignmouth in Devon last year and someone sang Wild Mountain Thyme, so beautifully that a hush fell. When she'd finished singing (It was Anne Gill) a woman at the bar breathed...that was Celtic and everybody nodded sagely and was happy. How can we ruin their pleasure? When we describe our music as English & Celtic people want to hear us. If we say folk, they suspiciously ask 'What kind of folk? because not everyone likes what they call yokel music.' cheers

devon deni

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:02 PM

Sorry, there's nothing there that can be related to Picts. South Wales and Devonshire's no surprise, the were more the one Irish kingdomlet in that area c 450 to 550 CE. Scotland's more interesting but the Ogham stones Pict or (Irish Dalriada Scots ones. I wonder about the old stones too. I have a fuzzy recolection of having read that the Ogham markings were a system of simple to carve marks to represent much harder to carve Roman letters. If true then it seems unlikely any could be as early as about (very roughly) 470 CE. Romans never got to Ireland. Upper class Britons knew Latin, but how early could they have carried it to their enemies, the Irish. (I don't know anything about how well the Irish in South Wales got along with their British neighbors. Brychan Breicheinoig (the little king, Irish) was said to be Vortigen's ally, even, which put him close to the Cunnda progeny, the most powerful in the North, even after Ambrosius Aurelianis came to power (only in the south and central Britain?) Cunneda's mission the rid Wales (current name) of Irish seems to have been in the West and North of present Wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Peg
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:01 PM

my my; a fascinating thread.

And I thought my proclivity for singing sad dirge-like Celtic songs of death and lost love was just, ya know, ME...

Gotta say I do love the Celtic landscapes/climates I have spent time in...the overcast skies and damp weather are the stuff of Hammer films: misty, opaque light in churchyards...

and I have never seen so many RAINBOWS as I have in England..all the rain! Saw a full rainbow that o'erhung the village of Avebury on the Day of the Summer Solstice, 2000; never seen such a wondrous site, ever...it spanned the stone circle that surrounds the town...if that is the stuff of melancholy, bring it on, melads, bring it on...

Peg (confirmed anglophile and indigent Celt)

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 09:35 PM

Thanks a lot Sorcha.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:48 PM

One outta two ain't bad........try again: Ogham info

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:46 PM

Bruce O, a couple sites for you about language:

Pictish language (and other good stuff) here.

Stuff about Ogham runes here.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:35 PM

Well Spanish survivors of the Armada may have played their part, but there've been Spanish links with the West of Ireland long before then - in fact it's likely that the first people to come to Ireland came that way rather than via Britain, back in Stone Age times.

The black refers often more to the very dark hair colour, contrasting with very pale skin - a combination that you often find in people from the West, which I believe is thought to date back to those days.

It's also used to refer to people with an angry kind of mood. And it's also also used where people have dark complexions; including these days the welcome addition to the Irish gene pool of people who have a mixed ancestry, some of it hailing from Africa or wherever.

As for the use of "Celtic" to refer to Irish music, I don't like it myself, partly because it's not an accurate term for a lot of the music anyway - but more because it implies that people who aren't of Gaelic descent aren't really Irish. And anyone who suggests that Wolfe Tone and Parnell and Yeats and Bernard Shaw (or Ian Paisley for that matter) weren't or aren't Irish is talking offensive nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 05:28 PM

I sympathize Alice, but once the advertizers latch onto a word it's hard to re-esablish it's legitimate use. Just look at what's called folk music now. I think the Scots are still writing 'Jacobite' ballads. Celtic art, jewelry, religious artifacts are widely sprread in Europe and the British Isles, and it would appear that a lot of the gold came from the Wicklow Mountains (not too far from Dublin). Can someone tell me anything directly about Pictish language was, and the language on the 'rune' stones or whatever those old memorial stones in Scotland are called.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Alice
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM

Just a comment on the disdain of using the term "Celtic". I, too, for a time avoided using the word Celtic, especially because music marketers began using it to label tranced-out new age recordings. But, recently, I decided in my own small way to reclaim the label "Celtic", since there are styles of decorative art on artifacts and in manuscripts, as well as the music that has been developed in regions that were Celtic in language. I am not alone in struggling with using the label for music, but I've come to the conclusion that since I like to sing more than Irish songs, it was more appropriate for me to use "Celtic" to describe the type of songs I offer. I really don't think it is fair to lump all musicians who call their work "Celtic" like this - " musician/group had not mastered any particular musical tradition, and were copying licks off of records and jumbling them all together". There are very informed musicians who have also struggled with the way new-age has co-opted the word Celtic, and have yet decided to embrace the label. You can read about it in a discussion here, particularly between a Scottish musician and a Welsh/American singer. Are we all Celts? click here

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 09:12 AM

On the association with Spain, there is a place in Galway City called The Spanish Arch and there is a long history of the association with Spain. The sister of an Irish friend of mine looked every inch a Spanish senorita. As for the Celtic connections anyone interested is reccommended to read the books of Peter Beresford Ellis.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:15 AM

From a great depressed Dane: I have of late - but wherefore I know not - lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.
What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals!
And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not me: no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
Nope, melancholy's a universal thing. Particularly when it's raining.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 05:59 AM

In the Isle Of Man there is a place called Spanish Head where a ship of the Armada was allegedly wrecked. It is also alleged that there are a significant number of people in the southernmost part of the island who have a Spanish appearance. What is undeniable is that the name Juan is not uncommon as a male Christian name, pronounced Joo-an.

Good Luck,

Ian M.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 05:27 AM

Black Irish. One long explanation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 03:48 AM

I know something about the Spanish Armada myth behind it but I think McGrath of Harlow or Malcolm Douglas or others can probably handle it much better.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy
From: Deni
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 02:03 AM

Guest

My son asked me months ago what the term Black Irish means, after hearing it in an Australian prison drama. Since you used the term, would you define it for me.

Greyeyes VERY interesting thread, Greyeyes. does the liking for sad songs follow the melancholy or does the melancholy lead to the liking for sad songs. I've got the same trouble. Our first folk album, thanks to my influence had around 70% of songs which I consider beautiful and melancholy. I am really having to be strict with myself to add some cheerful ones to subsequent albums, but I must confess I don't really feel them...

Don't you think though that if you've descended into melancholy a bit of fiddle music can lift your spirits considerably. I can't be the only person who can be despondednt one minute and skipping round the house next, depending on what's on the CD player.

On the Celtic thing. It's amazing how heated these arguments get. (Warlike?) Has anyone come across the Celtic Nations and visited its website? These people are trying to increase interest in the culture and are showing a certain generosity of spirit? Maybe all the 'displaced Celts' or those who feel themselves spiritually linked should support each other instead of each trying to prove their greater claim to the Celtic mantle. (Hooray for co-operation instead of superiority.) As has already been mentioned here, tracing these links would be impossible.

It isn't surprising that singers and musicians and other artists are attracted to the Celtic history, when you consider the enormous richness of Myths and Legends, art etc... if you are looking for research and inspiration, you don't go the place which inspires you the least.

I found myself frustrated by the lack of ancient legend in Devon until I read somewhere that when most of the Celts were driven into Wales and Corwall...yes, leaving behind a few stragglers...they would have obviously caried their legends with them. So why shouldn't we all enjoy them? They don't have to be 'ours' to be appreciated. Quote from Celtic Mythology, published by Geddes and Grosset. '...it was believed that the fount of primeval poetry issuing from Scandanavian and Germanic mythology was truly that of the British Isles and that we are rightful heirs to it of it by reason of the Anglo-Saxon in our blood. So indeed we are, but it is not our sole heritage. There must also run much Celtic -that is, truly British blood in our veins...We have the right therefore to claim a new spiritual possession...' (There is a footnote which states in detail all the places in Britain which were settled by the Celts.)

That's the quote, and one thing is sure. The peoples with whom we are so keen to claim kinship would have had an unceasing argument on the subject, probably with a few heads taken! Deni from Devon