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Origins: The World is Old (Laurence Housman)
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Subject: The World is Old- request info From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:43 PM Just realized this might be the best place to find information I have been searching for, for at least forty years...seems no one has ever heard of it. It has two verses; the first: The world is old tonight, the world is old ANY help would be greatly appreciated! Jean Line Breaks <br> repaired (two ended with a parenthesis). |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Amos Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:00 PM Jean Ritchie sang it on her "Kentucky Christmas Old And New" disk on the Greenhays label. But I do not find the words anywhere out there. Hope this helps. 235.World Is Old Tonight, Kentucky Christmas, Old and New, Greenhays GR 717 (1987), cut # 2 A |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:17 PM Hi Jean.........Are you looking for background/history type info or what? I doubt you are looking for the words!!!(:<)) BTW, line breaks are done here by placing one of these < and then a br then one of these > .....See the FAQ Teal thread for an example of all the html stuff that gets used or needed here. Here's your first verse re-done...I think.........
The world is old tonight, the world is old Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Sorcha Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:29 PM (pssst, hey Amos....kytrad is Jean Ritchie) |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:39 PM LOL....I already sent him a PM Sorch. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Amos Date: 29 Mar 01 - 10:04 PM I shoulda posted to the foot-in-mouth thread! Boy, and here I was fgeeling like one of Spaw's smart fellers! Sorry for pointing out the obvious, Jean. On the other hand, you don't know who I really am either! :>) Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 30 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM No, Amos, I don't...do you have a friend named Andy? And thanks, Spaw, for the reprints and the advice- but I'd SWEAR that I did the <> brackets right. I think the FORUM is out to embarrass me! Re the song: Here's the story. Way back in the 1930s, one of my sisters wrote and directed a Christmas play at the Hindman Settlement School, and included this "Shepherds' Song." She has passed on now and no other soul in the world, it seems, can find where she got the song. Maybe she wrote it herself! But somehow I don't think so- it MUST have a source. I think it's very beautiful and it certainly SOUNDS ancient... Jean |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:03 PM Well now this is really a quest then isn't it? Here we have a song that the only known recording seems to be by the person asking the question about any possible history! Now that's unique!!! Okay, so the best way I can help is to get this thread to the attention of afew of our "real scholars" and see if they have anything that's somewhat similar and might be either the song itself or the basis for it. I'll look around, but if we can get Bruce O. and Stewie and some others in on this there's a LOT better chance of success. Sounds like fun........Thanks Jean, and BTW, I'm the Andy half of Amos.....or at least we have some exchanges between us that sound like one of their routines. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:04 PM Jean, luv, No friends named Andy that I own up to! :>) It's more of a New England thing, I reckon. And for the current context, let me just add, I count myself an admirer of yours! Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Noreen Date: 30 Mar 01 - 05:36 PM This is a puzzler- never heard the song, I'm sorry, but I wish you luck in your search, Jean. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:30 PM Here's the second verse, now that I've got my brackets working- Ahem!
The world is still tonight, the world is still I wish I knew how to get the tune online for you, but I don't as yet. Maybe my son can do it (always call on the kids if you need help!)... or Amos, if you have the Ky Christmas CD and you know all about these things...??? Jean |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: mousethief Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:47 PM Ms. Ritchie, is it possible your sister wrote it? (just a stab in the dark here...) Alex |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Stewie Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:48 PM Hi Jean, it is great to have you here. The lyrics are lovely, particularly the first verse, but I have never come across it. I agree with Amos that, at least on the surface, it looks to be of New England or British origin. Where is Sandy? I reckon he'd be the person most likely to be of help. The first verse is reminiscent of A.E. Houseman's style. Perhaps it is a poem set to music but, on the printed page at least, the final line of the second stanza reads a little awkwardly to me. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:49 PM Well.......I wrote to some and I also started a thread in the hopes of snaring some others. Jean......Check in at SONG SCHOLARS-Unique Challenge-Need Help also as some are posting some responses there. McGrath for instance, just commented on it having a Stephen Foster feel to him. Anyway, check in there too and we'll keep trying. I can't think of any similar request in the past and that makes this one unique....and a bit of fun too. Obviously, she could have written it "out of the air" but knowing your family history and the number of songs you all heard and sang, I can understand how you could think she drew all or part of it from somewhere else. BTW....nosy jerk that I am......which sister?
Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:51 PM Oooppssss........Forgot to close the link......Sorry. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Rick Fielding Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:52 PM Hi Jean. You know our Mousethief-guy might just have it. I've checked out some resources (good day for it..'cause I've got a cold, and pouring over old books and the internet is definitely a better option than lying in bed begging Heather for orange juice!) A friend of mine was trying to find a complete text of a song her Grandfather used to sing in Newfoundland, and we searched for months with absolutely no luck. Tried everything, from local songbooks, old Broadway-style sheetmusic, and everything that the internet could provide. Finally she was speaking to one of her Aunts (who'd been unaware of the search) "Oh, that ol' thing, he just used to make 'em up out of his head"! My friend was "Gobsmacked". 'Seems some songwriters hardly even KNEW they WERE songwriters. Good luck Rick |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:02 PM I am confident it is nowhere on the normal search engine trail. Tried 'em all. So its back into the annals of personal memory and many a volume of long-forgotten lore... |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:14 PM Yeah Amos...been there too. Tried all my favorite engines and a boatload of phrases and word groups......no joy. Sorry about the cold Rick......Keep it up there wouldja'? I got enough problems. But I think you have a good point. Karen and I were talking tonight about a comment I made that cracked her up. She asked where that was from and I think it was original.....but I'm not sure. Maybe its a variant based on something else I can't recall (a category that's growing by volumes daily). I guess that's sorta' why Jean's question here hit me. We've had some threads on that idea too. Anyway....... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:17 PM I've sent the words to Ian Russell, the driving force behind the Village Carols project, in the long-shot hope that he might recognise it, or suggest someone who might. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Noreen Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:43 PM I'm listening to Jean singing the song now on Real Player, on an archived radio programme Shrunken Planet Playlist for Dec 23, 2000. It does sound very old, and lovely... I think it's going to stay in my head... Noreen |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 30 Mar 01 - 09:29 PM Thanks Noreen, it's at 1:25:43 on the clip, the RealPlayer slider is ~half-way across. I'm "runnin' my traps" on this one, Jean...will know more after this weekend at the gathering in Lexington! |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Mar 01 - 10:05 PM I hope Burke takes a look. She knows a lot about the older stuff... have not heard the tune but could it be from the Sacred Harp tradition? If so Burke is likely to spot it. I just asked Hardiman-- he is steeped in old Anglican lore, and does not recognize it. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:27 PM I checked every resource I could think of, with no luck. I thought of the York Christmas Play or the Shepherds' Play, but that didn't pan out - couldn't find all the plays, so that's a vague possibility. -All mention of the song points to none other than Jean Ritchie. It's a haunting tune - I really like it. So, either it was written by Jean Ritchie, or it's "traditional" (I understand that means Sandy Paton wrote it). -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Giac Date: 31 Mar 01 - 08:23 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Amos Date: 31 Mar 01 - 01:02 PM That tune is unusually built -- it sounds like it was written in Chaucerian England or Medieval times -- almost like a Gregorian chant. It sounds as old as Greensleeves to me, and closely related, as such things go. No later than early Renaissance, is my guess. Jean, it is a beautiful performance. That doesn't mean the song itself is that old, unless you take the "thousand years" literally, which I wouldn't. But it is indicative that if the song was composed in America it was by someone exposed to pretty pure legacy material from, oh, 1200-1600, say. Which could be many branches of Appalachian song, for example. I wonder if it could have been a Cornish tune? A |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: catspaw49 Date: 31 Mar 01 - 01:10 PM I'm anxious to hear Jean get back on this one Amos since the possibility is similar to what I alluded to earlier. The roots of so many Appalchian songs are from that tradition and the Ritchie family's exposure to them make writing something in that style or creating a variant on a piece heard years before is a possibility. I also heard back from Sandy Paton who is up to his proverbial ass in Alligators at the moment, but ran a copy of the words to share with Caroline too. Nothing ringing bells now, but.......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM Great radio archive there, and Jean Ritchie's song makes the hairs stand up on my neck. A trace of a sprig of thyme in the tune maybe. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 31 Mar 01 - 02:30 PM My heartfelt thanks to all of you for your research, suggestions and compliments... my own search has covered many, many years, so I knew it wouldn't be easy. Spaw- the sister was Pauline, twelfth in line from the top (I'm the end, # 14). No, I'm fairly certain she did not write it herself, nor did I. Stewie- Yes, I had thought it might be a poem set to music, but the lyric & melody seem almost "of a piece" to me; I can just see the shepherds sitting round a fire, and one of them saying these words, the tune kind of falling on them(the words) as he goes. And I love that second verse, especially, "and so will do, my love, when we like will" (like wool lie white). I think the word structure contributes to the fact (or the feeling) that it's a very old piece. McGrath of Harlowe- That's what made me remember the song; I was a very small child when I first heard Pauline sing it, then the whole family sang it, and "the hairs stood up on my neck," and the song moved in and never left me. When we were recording "Kentucky Christmas-Old & New," I wanted to give a source for "The World is Old," and realized that I was the only one who knew it now! So, everybody, thanks for trying- maybe some day.....Jean |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Big Mick Date: 31 Mar 01 - 02:55 PM That is an amazing cut!! I, like others here, was taken completely by the arrangement and performance. I then did the same, ............ all the search engines, and several emails to folks that might have a clue.....nothing. You are right, Spaw, this is a quest. Mick |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 31 Mar 01 - 03:13 PM McGrath, if you sent it to Russell you might not recognize it when it comes back. He okayed for publication two MSS that I sent to FMJ, except he wanted it all rewritten (with a dopey reference to an inaccurate reprint). I gave up on FMJ (except for my review in the last issue- new editor of FMJ) and the manuscripts (Callino and Derry's Fair) are on my website. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 01 Apr 01 - 04:55 PM I don't know whether it'll be of any help in the search, but my sister Pauline Ritchie went to Wellesley College (on a scholarship for smart students from the KY hills), and the play in which she used the song was written & produced by her shortly after her graduation (I'll have to research the year, but it was around 1934 or '35), at the tiny school where she worked, The Hindman Settlement School in Kentucky. Jean |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Sorcha Date: 01 Apr 01 - 05:07 PM Well, Jean, at least you are not the only one who knows it NOW and we can all say we learned it from Jean R, the SOURCE!! LOL! One more song saved from Oblivion.... |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 01 Apr 01 - 05:33 PM I'm beginning to think my guess on the 'Song Scholar' thread may be right. Date fit's nicely. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Greyeyes Date: 01 Apr 01 - 05:53 PM I don't think this will help but further to Stewie's comment about Houseman, there is a definite ring of Keats about the words as well, particularly his "The Eve of St.Agnes": St.Agnes' Eve - Ah bitter chill it was! The owl, for all his feathers, was a-cold; The hare limp'd trembling through the frozen grass, And silent was the flock in woolly fold. And they are gone: aye, ages long ago These lovers fled away into the storm. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Sandy Paton Date: 01 Apr 01 - 11:33 PM Sandy and Caroline also struck out, Jean. Sorry. I'm pretty much with the "old carol" group of theorists, though. I'll try to look some more when I escape all these alligators, but I doubt that I have any book on the shelves that you haven't already examined. Sandy |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Hollowfox Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:23 PM Jean, it's a long shot, but you might want to write to Wellesley College, perhaps to the head reference librarian. Pauline might have gotten it out of a collection of recitations, holiday verse, or something like that while she was at college. My library has quite a collection of such material that would fit the time requirement, so I've started looking through it as time allows. I've also tried various editions of Granger's Index to Poetry, assuming that "The world is old" is the first line. You might want to try the many websites devoted to poetry; some of them are devoted to just such searches as this. WYSIWYG (and others) - anything in your church library(s)? |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:43 PM Hey 'Fox.....Funny you should mention that as I took the poetry with Jean's time frame in mind & Bruce's ideas with me today to a unique library not far from me. They have, literally, VOLUMES of possibilities and I'm there every few weeks. Lots of period and older material that might fit the bill. JEAN.....I bet you know the place since you have played there in the past. Its the Wagnall's Memorial in Lithopolis, funded by the Wagnall's fortune (Funk&Wagnalls) and they have an excellent collection of older material. I talked with a friend there and she will keep an eye out and I'll be back and and search a little more in a few weeks. If nothing else, as Sorcha said, you have some interested folks with a song they now know and it will be one of those things that kinda' lurks in the back of the mind.....so don't give up. Might happen!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 02 Apr 01 - 06:02 PM Hey, I'm flabbergasted and thrilled at such dilligence and concern- my sincere thanks to all of you researchers... you know, it won't be a tragedy if we never find it, but it's been bothering my mind for so long! I think though that if it CAN be found, it will be through the efforts of this team. A good idea about writing to Wellesley; maybe I'll do that, or any of you can, if you like. And- I was at Wagnalls' Memorial less than two years ago, and never did I dream that they had that kind of a library. Live & learn! |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:31 PM Here's a long shot. Once upon a time Jean was trying to remember where the line "We'll never pay rent for our mansion (in Heaven)" came from and a friend of mine in Michigan, Gunther Schmidt, tracked it down in RODEHEAVER'S GOSPEL SONGS by F.M. Lehman, 1914. Who knows, maybe this song's in there too! Good luck in the hunt, Charlie from ME
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Stewie Date: 02 Apr 01 - 10:15 PM Charlie, a bit of thread creep - you'll find a wonderful essay about Homer Rodeheaver here (if you are interested): --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C Date: 03 Apr 01 - 09:08 AM Well, Stewie, now those who want something more to rake through have got it! Amazing what you can turn up. I'd personally like to see the lyrics to his anti-alcohol song "De Brewer's Big Hosses"; I'm intrigued and may well creep onwards. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 03 Apr 01 - 03:54 PM Yes, Charlie, I know Mr Rodeheaver's work very well- being around Southern Baptists all my life, but you must admit that, "The World is Old..." is not quite his style nor sound! Never pay rent for our mansions- that line came into my head when a stranger asked me, via phone, if I knew any songs about how poor people (or mountain people?) felt about the Hereafter- did they think of it in material terms, etc. And I remembered we used to sing, while our missionary lady played the pump-organ, "There's No Disappointment in Heaven.," and the phoning person, who was writing an article or something, got very excited, loved the song. So, Charlie, YOU must be that person- or know who he/she is? Come on, confess. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: GUEST Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:44 PM Searched through my poetry collection and several websites, but couldn't find it . don't know why I thought I recognised it, but I did. I'm in my sixties, so perhaps I've heard your version and it's lingered. I love your phrase 'the song moved in and never left me', it's exactly how I feel, certain songs just decide I should sing them, rather than the other way about, it seems. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C Date: 04 Apr 01 - 09:35 AM Jean, I was just reviewing the lyrics of "There's No Disappointment in Heaven" the other day in my consideration of a feline parody entitled "No Hairballs in Heaven." Yes, I'm still Charlie and I wish you well on your search. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: IanC Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:26 AM Jean I've been looking carefully at this since you first posted. I've found nothing on the web but, looking at the style, if it were English I'd say it looks like Laurie Lee or, at a pinch, Thomas Hardy. Doesn't look mediaeval to me though it could be from a more modern style "mystery play" (of which there are one or two. I'll keep searching. Cheers!br> Ian |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 01 - 02:03 PM IanC; I agree with you - Hardy was the first source I looked at : do hope someone solves this |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Amos Date: 04 Apr 01 - 04:26 PM The lyrics could be Victorian (Hardy's era) but the tune is certainly older by far, IHO. A |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 01 - 04:48 PM William Barnes might be another idea - since he wrote in Dorset dialect, if he did write it, the spelling he'd likely have used might fox the average search engine. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 04 Apr 01 - 10:52 PM ...still working... Could it be an art song she learned while at Wellesley? Perhaps another language? Die Welt ist alt I'm looking mostly in the Kentucky resources. This is fun. |
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Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 05 Apr 01 - 02:03 PM Just heard from a professor at UK (Go Big Blue!) who teaches Appalachian music, and he is unfamiliar with a mountain source for this one. He also doesn't know of any WPA records in KY but will keep an ear out. The Wellesley connection is looking more plausible. I still need to hear from some Kentucky historians. Jean, when I mention the song to people, they say, "Oh yes, that's familiar, didn't Jean Ritchie sing that?" !!!!! |
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