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cedar top guitars
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Subject: cedar top guitars? From: GUEST,guest Date: 08 May 01 - 02:52 PM I'm aware that cedar top guitars are meant to be 'ready-to-play' in comparison to their spruce top counterparts,but does the sound of the cedar tops change/mature over the years also? Or is the change so negligible it is not worth the wait? |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Bert Date: 08 May 01 - 02:57 PM Seagull make some fine guitars with cedar tops. The acoustical properties of cedar are very similar to those of spruce. The only thing I would be concerned about on a guitar is that the cross grain strength is much less than spruce. Ber. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Phil Cooper Date: 08 May 01 - 03:06 PM I have had two cedar top guitars over the years and really like the sound I get. First one I had was a Fylde Orsino, which I got in 1980. I had it for over ten years and from day one, to the day I traded it in for another guitar I thought it sounded great. My current main guitar is a Taylor K14C which has a cedar top and koa back & sides (the Fylde was cedar and mahagony). It also drew my ear the first time I played it. Yes, I think cedar is not as strong a wood as spruce (the Fylde had a really nice ding from when my cittern fell on it during a concert). But I also feel the instruments are tools of the trade and not art objects. Take reasonable precautions and figure if you're playing it a lot that you will get some dings. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: catspaw49 Date: 08 May 01 - 03:10 PM Well....The initial liveness of Cedar is appealing of course and its popular as soundboard material on othe instruments as well, such as Hammered Dulcimers. But understand that Cedar too improves with age and use. It's true too that Cedar is not of the same strength as any of the spruces, but (and it's a big one, especially on HD's) it is about two times more stable and that's great. Changes in moisture content is a problem for any instrument owner and the fact that Cedar is twice as stable as the moisture changes is pretty neat. Cedar does NOT lose it's sound properties any faster than spruce contrary to the ongoing myth. Pretty desirable attributes for a lot of people. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Benjamin Date: 08 May 01 - 03:17 PM All guitars take a bit of time and playing to break in. As I've heard it put, the tone of cedar is much more "forgiving" than spruce. I personally like it better. Spaw also has a good point about stability. I'd go cedar, but that's me! |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: kendall Date: 08 May 01 - 03:55 PM I wonder how cedar compares with redwood. Anyone know? My 12 string has a redwood top. This Apollonio 12 has not improved much in 27 years. It's probably because it was damn near perfect to start with! |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: catspaw49 Date: 08 May 01 - 04:43 PM Okay Kendall........It's very similar in almost every respect to Cedar, especially as to dimensional stability. It's also pretty well considered to be rot resistant. Instruments use a coastal redwood by the way, not the big mohunkers. Actually very little of the big mohunkers is used for anything because it tends to split when the tree falls owing to the size of the tree!!! Redwood also works well for backs although it is a bit of problem in sides as it is a bit difficult to bend....not impossible, just one of the woods that will split under the force of bending, even when done properly. Again, it makes good back material as well as being comparable to Cedar for soundboards. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Justa Picker Date: 08 May 01 - 04:52 PM 'Spaw, any validity to the rumor that Cedar tops tend to dry out faster and are more prone to developing cracks, over spruce? I don't own any guitars with cedar tops, but have a couple of different friends, one with an HD-28 and another with an HD-35, both with Cedar tops, and they mentioned this to me. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: UB Ed Date: 08 May 01 - 04:54 PM I recently acquired a Lowden cedar top and think the sound is great. I understood that cedar would not "age" as well as spruce, but always took it to mean the current sound would pretty much be the future sound, unlike some Martins that have developed a wonderful tone over the years. Spaw, did I miss something? |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Bert Date: 08 May 01 - 05:28 PM One would expect cedar to crack more than spruce as it splits very easily. That's one of the reasons that it is used for shingles. I would also expect that most luthiers would take that into account and compensate for it when bracing the top. All wood ages; even a laminated top will improve eventually, though some will tell you different. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Big Mick Date: 08 May 01 - 08:34 PM I have an Ovation with a cedar top that has had to have two cracks repaired in the 10 years or so that I have owned it. But it has a wonderful sound. Mick |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Troll Date: 09 May 01 - 12:24 AM I have a Lyon and Healy Lakeside parlor guitar built around 1900. It has oak sides and back and a cedar top. The top has no cracks and it plays well although it has a rather quiet voice. I like it and would not hesitate to own another cedar topped guitar. troll |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 01 - 12:43 AM Stupid question...do most guitars improve in sound with age? If so, why? |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 09 May 01 - 12:37 PM I saw some quarter sawn Hemlock a few weeks back, it was a really good price but I did not buy it. I have been thinking about it ever since, the grain looked pretty good for a guitar top. Anybody got any experience of it for use in a top ? My only experience with Hemlock is for board and batten siding. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 09 May 01 - 12:37 PM I saw some quarter sawn Hemlock a few weeks back, it was a really good price but I did not buy it. I have been thinking about it ever since, the grain looked pretty good for a guitar top. Anybody got any experience of it for use in a top ? My only experience with Hemlock is for board and batten siding. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 09 May 01 - 12:57 PM My Lowden O10 (cedar top, mahogany B/S) has sounded great since day-1, if it never gets any better I don't care because it's already better than 99.9% of other guitars I've heard. Go for cedar. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Clinton Hammond Date: 09 May 01 - 01:04 PM the Seagull website has this to say about cedar vs spruce tops and aging...
"Cedar Top or Spruce Top?
"Aging The url in case you wanna read the whole page is http://www.seagullguitars.com/seagullstory.htm ;-) |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 01 - 01:14 PM Thanks Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Justa Picker Date: 09 May 01 - 01:20 PM Here's an article that explains the effects of aging, and also offers a (yet-to-be-proven) solution to make a guitar "age" more rapidly. Personally I believe it's a combination of the laquers, their subsequent break down over time, the long term metamorphosis of the wood on a cellular level, good woods used in the construction of the instrument, and just playing the crap out it. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 01 - 01:36 PM Regarding cracking........In theory, the similarities in spruce and cedar would tell you that cedar should be no more prone to cracking than spruce. Most tonewoods, including ones used in backs and sides are woods that are high in resistance to splitting. White oak for instance has a good taptone but it cracks very easily and is never used. The one factor that makes cedar attractive though may also result in cracking and that is the dimensional stability I mentioned earlier. You run into the same problem in metals.......one of dissimilar materials which are not as compatible. That is to say that heating/cooling and moisture content (in the case of woods) means that as the various changing patterns of hot and cold and wet and dry occur, the more different characteristics of the wood might cause cracking in one that is more stable. BTW, has anyone seen the shaker gizmo they're selling to help age your guitar? You mount your ax in it and it sets up a vibration similar to what it gets when played. Actually it makes sense, but it's kinda' humorous too. I mean if it DOES work, packing your guitar around with you on your Harley oughta' help. And if you have an older Brit bike like a Beezer or Triumph, you oughta' be able to age the livin' hell out of it in no time at all!!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Clinton Hammond Date: 09 May 01 - 01:42 PM Spaw, that's the gizmo that Justa posted right above you... Eyes open eh... I wouldn't trust the thing myself... seem's... I donno... artificial somehow... Just lemme play the thing until it ages properly... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: GUEST,guest Date: 09 May 01 - 02:08 PM The replies have been great. Much appreciated. The similarity of properties between cedar and spruce has been a revelation,and not a little comforting. I shall go now and choose a name for myself. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: GUEST,Don Meixner Date: 09 May 01 - 02:52 PM So what you are saying is extended use of vibrators can cause or simulate aging. And the tradional way of cellular excitement may take longer but for some people the result may be more satisfying in the long run. And somehow this applys to wood??? |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Gary T Date: 09 May 01 - 03:04 PM Some previous thread here mentioned the poor man's way to accelerate aging--place the guitar in its stand in front of your home stereo speaker (with music playing, of course). Don't know how this would relate to Don's post, though. (BG) |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 01 - 03:06 PM Hey Clinton!!! Open your own bro!!!!lol....I was typing while JP was posting.......Personally, I like Don's thoughts on the matter................... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Clinton Hammond Date: 09 May 01 - 03:28 PM Why am I not surprised even one little bit Spaw?!?! LOL!!! Seriously... My 3 current Seagulls are fine examples of wood tone improving with age... the eldest one is 15+ years old... the next I've had for 4 years or so, and the newest one is not quite a year old yet... and the tones, while all very nice are very distinctive... There's a little more info on these guitars on my web site... Does this place allow the image tag in html?
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Clinton Hammond Date: 09 May 01 - 03:29 PM COOOOL!!! a new mudcat signature!
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 01 - 05:21 PM "Sword For Hire"???????...........And why am I not surprised? LOL......Only you Clinton! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Clinton Hammond Date: 09 May 01 - 09:50 PM That's been my moniker for many years spaw... |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Cap't Bob Date: 09 May 01 - 10:18 PM I am curious as to what kind of cedar is used in making instruments. We have a lot of eastern white cedar around these parts but is would be difficult to find large piece without knots. Cap't Bob |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 01 - 10:39 PM Western Red Cedar Cap'n........not the scrub cedar either around here and further south. A close friend of mine (college roommate) grew up dirt poor in Kentucky. His Dad was a tenant farmer and they had a tough time making ends meet anytime. At Christmas they used scrub cedar for a Christmas tree. So..............We used to hunt on the farm and one day I brought a friend of mine from Ohio along for one of our fall hunting weekends. Randy (from Ohio) was a bit shocked although he didn't say anything when he saw the farm and the house. Matt's mom fed us to the gills though breakfast and lunch and Randy was mightily impressed with the eats. We're heading back in across a ridge and Matt says, "I need to tell 'em that there are some good Christmas trees up here." Randy had never seen anything like cedar being used for trees being a middle class suburbanite. Randy keeps looking around as Matt and I talked about the size and shape of varios sscrub cedars and then finally said, "Are you telling me you use these for Christmas trees?" Matt replied that was indeed the case and Randy cranked out a line that could have been taken offensively, but both Matt and I knew how he meant it. Randy said, "No wonder Santa Claus never stops here." Matt and I were both doubled over laughing for 5 minutes! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: mooman Date: 10 May 01 - 06:20 AM I think Spaw"s hit it on the head. The main differences are in strength and dimensional stability. Spruce (of different species and depending where it's grown), pine (again with the same criteria) and cedar, not to mention Western Red Cedar, Douglas Fir, and several others already mentioned all differ in these respects. Even the aspect of the tree and how and where the log is cut all have a bearing. I have or have owned instruments with Swiss Pine, cedar, Englemann Spruce, Sitka spruce and Western Red Cedar tops and with mahogany, bubinga (Ovangkol), Indian rosewood and Brazilian rosewood bodies, all in varying combinations. Cedar tends, as Spaw mentioned, to be more resistant to humidity changes due to its structure and high resin content. At the end of the day it's all in the sound that works best for you, aesthetic qualities, the quality of lutherie and of materials, even the glue used. All of the woods mentioned are tried and tested by many top manufacturers and they all have their different characteristics, alone or in combination with other woods. mooman (still apparently male but not sure ...and who once VERY VERY long ago was a wood scientist and instrument repairman!) mooman (ex-mcmoo) |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: English Jon Date: 10 May 01 - 08:30 AM I've got a Takamine EF407. Anyone know what it's made of? It could well be a cedar of some variety, but I really don't know. English Jon |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: GUEST,jr Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:20 PM well i hope i have'nt messed up i just bought my son a breedlove pro series that came out in sept. solid cedar top rosewood sides and back they to are solid . i hope he gets the sound he's looking for being a beginer. this new pro series is supposed to be more bang for your buck. i could have bought a taylor 314 for just a bit more.,,,, somebody make me feel good about my move. thanks |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: EBarnacle Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM As mentioned above, there are cedars and there are cedars. They range from white cedar, which is used as a structural wood in boats for planking and stressed areas to Phillipine Mahogany, also known as cigar box cedar which does not deserve the name mahogany, as it has few of the qualities of true mahogany. Ya gets what ya pays for. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Phil Cooper Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:34 PM I just bought a Taylor GS Cedar and Mahogony model in summer of 2006. I was not in the market and doodled around on it, and wound up walking out of the store with it. Still have the K14C mentioned above as well. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Jim Lad Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:50 AM One of my tenors is a cedar top. It's about 10 years old now and has improved immensely in that time. The picking is softer, more mellow & the strumming is just fine. Couldn't strum it when I first bought it. The sound was brittle and chords, unrecognizable. I always leave my instruments on stands when not in use and have friends who park them close to their speakers to encourage the aging process. Travelling from the coast to the interior and severe cold weather has taken its toll on most of my instruments. Doesn't bother me any more. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Nov 07 - 04:44 AM Ken Nicol (Steeleye Span and brilliant guitarist) plays cedar tops - all by Fylde. he says the close grain gives the tone more punch. I've got yamaha cpx cedar top, but its anot a solid wood guitar. Breedloves are very good. you should be alright. if you paid less than a couple of thousand pounds though, I'd get a specialist set up from a good luthier. Its always money well spent. |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Brian Hoskin Date: 26 Nov 07 - 06:14 AM English Jon, I know it's a while since you asked the question, but if you're still interested in what your Takamine's made out of check it out here Takamine.com Brian |
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Subject: RE: cedar top guitars From: Mooh Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:16 AM I find that virtually every solid wood instrument changes over the years, some more than others, due to atmospheric conditions, kind of wood, bracing, use, abuse, how they're strung, etc.. I currently enjoy a solid cedar top LaPatrie Collection, a Josh House guitar shaped bouzouki, and a carved top Peter Cox mandolin. Love them all. Peace, Mooh. |
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