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BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel
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Subject: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM Suffet's Real Folksinger thread reminded me of a dilemma I've been thinking about. It is generally reckoned that the 'contemplating your navel' songs, and 'singing your diary' songs are generally not terribly interesting to listen to, and are pretty much frowned upon. However - I often find that I write contemplative songs about entirely fictitious situations. I wonder then whether if people don't know that, then they might think they are navel-contemplative-diary songs about my life (god forbid!). My gut feeling is that I would be predisposed to dislike a song that was diary-ish, but would give more credence to a song that was fiction-ish. The former would strike me as self-indulgent and pushy, whereas the latter would strike me as a story. I wonder if there's really any difference - can songs stand or fall entirely on their own merit, or does the audience's perception of whether they are personal & why they were written have an effect? I suppose the question is really about how far context affects the reception of a song. Which again maybe relates to the importance of setting the context of a song by introducing it (for all songs, not just for the self-penned). Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: LR Mole Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:29 AM Hm. Gets into a sticky area here. Is the song melodically interesting(would it exist without the lyrics?) Is it more meaningful when the singer is known, and is that the same thing as the singer's songs being known? What's the difference between "_______ is a Big Jerk" and "Stardust"?X.J. Kennedy once published an anthology of poetry withough biographical details about the writers, or even their names, to see if the things would stand on their own. Or do we love the illusion of these singers as friends? |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:36 AM That's the kind of thing Mole, yes. What happened with the poetry anthology do you know? That's a fascinating experiment. Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Little Neophyte Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:49 AM I figure if you are going to write about something fictitious, there is an aspect within the fiction that reflects an aspect of yourself. When people make assumptions about why you wrote that song there is an aspect within their assumption that reflects an aspect of themselves. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Whistle Stop Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:00 AM I disagree with the premise that "'contemplating your navel' songs... are generally not terribly interesting to listen to." This may be a general feeling on this forum, or at least among some members of this forum. For myself, I tend to be quite interested in songs that tend to the more introspective and personal end of the spectrum, which are often derided on this forum as "contemplating your navel" or "diary" songs. For me, songs about historical events, etc. are often decidedly less interesting than these, unless they go beyond a simple recitation of events to also speak to something deeper and more profound. I would suggest that you write what you like, and not worry about it. Censoring yourself because you're worried that your audience will consider you self-indulgent is, in my opinion, a very bad idea; some of the greatest works of art, literature, and music were quite self indulgent. There are many audiences out there, and not all of them dislike the contemplative songs you're talking about. The whole world is not the Mudcat Forum, and even on the Mudcat Forum I don't really think there is a consensus on this point. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 10 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM Whis Stop - probably not a consensus on any point! I wouldn't let anything stop me writing what I like - but I want to try to understand how to present songs best. I am interested in what makes some songs more instantly likeable than others & what things influence are perceptions of a song & how we feel about the song. I need to feel confident that what I am singing is worthwhile in some way & that the audience might enjoy it - otherwise I lose faith in the middle & start wanting to giggle. Which is embarassing. Little Neo - I'm still digesting your post. It has lots of implications and angles. Makes a unique chain between the performer and each member of the audience. Lovely!! Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Whistle Stop Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM Good points Kris -- I think I just had a knee-jerk reaction to the premise and didn't consider the rest of what you were saying. Like you, I have written some songs that are pretty autobiographical, and others that were pure fiction (although Bonnie is probably right that they always reflect something about the writer, even if the story is made up). The audience doesn't always know which is which, and I've sometimes been asked "is that true?" with an amused or faintly horrified tone, depending on the subject matter. I guess that if you're uncomfortable about the audience confusing the writer with the character, you could intro the song ahead of time to make it clear that it's not really about you in a literal sense. Or you could just leave them guessing, and let the chips fall where they may. Audiences can be pretty funny about this stuff. One of the most telling examples of this (for me) was the reaction that met Randy Newman when he wrote "Short People" -- which was an obvious spoof on bigotry, but some actually took it as a serious attack. Randy Newman had a lot of those types of songs (the racial epithets in "Sail Away," promotion of nuclear attack in "Political Science," unkind references to the mentally retarded, etc.), and he tended to just float them out there with no explanation. I think this showed a certain courage on his part, and probably heightened the impact of the songs, but there's definitely a choice to be made -- especially if there's no escape door behind the stage. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Bill D Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:34 AM In my still unpublished analysis of 'folk music'...(up to Vol. 4 of the introduction to the preface, so far), I list this issue as one of the ways to characterize a song. If you look carefully, the tendency in 'older', more traditional songs was to write about others. And even when a song was done in 1st person, it 'tended' to be descriptive and outwardly directed, rather than about personal feelings and introspective musings. Many of the newer songwriters have changed the 'tendency' to the viewpoint that has come to be known in some circles as 'navel gazing', and it evokes different responses, as we have seen. It is not whether 'diary like' songs are good or bad, but they ARE different, and tap into different aspects of ourselves. I have great difficulty in maintaining an interest in verses that ONLY expose the emotions of the writer, but if they also manage to say something meaningful about the human condition in general, I can appreciate them a bit more..(if, that is, they do it well musically !!) I, and others, still prefer songs that WE can sing, without feeling that we are living someone else's life, and that can comfortably be sung with a group. The dairy-like, contemplative songs, whether fiction or real, are designed to be sung AT others, or to one's self mostly...they are not 'sharing' songs. I am fully aware that they are popular these days, perhaps as a result of this hectic world we live in, but they will always reflect something different than songs about the world and how it works. There is a place for all types, but they DO need to be recognized as something beyond the folk/trad in the marketplace, etc.. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:09 PM So - its possible to write a diary-like about a fictitious person? And that would be one which was introspective and detached from any outside meaning or influence? And then again it is possible to write a non-diary-like song from a personal point of view - being a song that had some connections or implications beyond the purely personal? SO - for example - if my songs are telling a story or illustrating a point, then they are probably not going to be taken as navel-gazing? That sounds like good news! X-fingers anyway So, just to live dangerously...... here's one of said songs. Its supposed to be a bit menacing (stalker/unrequited love type thing) - but I wonder whether it just maunders on & doesn't get the point over - that's what started me really thinking about the difference between what I meant & what was actually registering. Its the one where I lost faith half way through singing it. title: Pick Up The Line chorus 1: The network's on fire I'm burning up wire To call you My heart is on hold There's a hole in my soul When I call you And you can call me a fool You can call me a big fool Because I've fallen for you And I've fallen big too Pick up the line verse 1: I have never seen your face Never heard your voice But I've read you mind Never touched your hand Never touched you life Like you touch mine And I can't let a day go Without letting you know I am still here What you want, if you want Whatever you want I am still here Pick up the line chorus 2: The network's on fire I'm burning up wire To call you My heart is on hold There's a hole in my soul When I call you And you can call me a fool You can call me a blind fool Because I'm blinded by you I'm right behind you Pick up the line verse 2 : It's a sad thing to begin To love And can't stop You have planted a seed Of a man in my heart And its a bitter crop And I can't let a day go Without letting you know I am still here What you want, if you want Whatever you want I am still here Pick up the line chorus 3: The network's on fire I'm burning up wire To call you My heart is on hold There's a hole in my soul When I call you And you can call me a fool You can call me a dangerous fool Because I've fallen for you And I'm right behind you Pick up the line I know I'll regret asking - but does it veer to diaryish or is it point outward??? - its not a favourite or anything, so you can be brutal if needs be.... Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Ebbie Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:38 PM Kris, that song to me sounds like you had entered someone else's mind. A bit ominous, as you said, (I wouldn't want to receive such a letter or phone call) but it sounds like an attempt to understand. Here is one of mine that I rarely sing for anyone else because it definitely is navel gazing. The First Time
Our lives together were clashes of will Cho:
The first time, the first time Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:57 PM Ebbie - your song is lovely and it made me smile. So if that's a navel-gazer then they ain't all bad! It does communicate I'd say - because it rings bells and paints pictures. So then it would be good to sing it for other people surely? Though some songs are nice to keep just for yourself aren't they. I think it would draw nods of recognition and agreement, and I know a lot of people that would like it (especially mothers....). Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Kim C Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:02 PM Most of what I write has something to do with me. Some of it is so very personal that it doesn't get played for anyone, it's just for me. I'm with Whistle Stop - write what you like and don't worry wbout it. If the song is good, the people will like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Whistle Stop Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:05 PM I may be missing something, Kris, but the theme and orientation of your song don't sound that unusual to me. Lots of love songs (of the unrequited variety, or otherwise) require the singer to "inhabit" the character. The character may be heartbroken (think of Linda Ronstadt's early hit "Long Long Time"), or obsessive and menacing (think of the Police song "Every Breath You Take"), or may have such a complex mix of emotions that they defy easy characterization. In fact, your song reminds me vaguely of a 1970's hit by MattR's favorite band, Electric Light Orchestra, called "Telephone Line," which had a similar theme. I never assumed that any of these songs were necessarily autobiographical. So I would suggest that you just go ahead and sing your song without worrying that it will reflect badly on you. In fact, there are some very successful songwriters who seem to deliberately create a sense of discomfort with songs like this. Richard Thompson is a good example; listen to "Uninhabited Man" off of his recent "Mock Tudor" album if you really want to get the creeps. As to whether your song succeeds in getting its point across, I think the lyrical structure you have created probably helps -- you lead with a chorus, and keep coming back to the theme in an obsessive way. I also suspect that a lot depends on the delivery, which is something we can't judge by just reading the words. I think the menacing tone you are seeking might be something that you can deliberately emphasize -- again, I think "Every Breath You Take" is a good example, in that Sting's understated delivery really enhances the sense of menace. But as far as I can tell you've got a good one there, and it probably does achieve the desired effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone else's navel From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:22 PM These days you can't walk through a shopping mall without seeing lots of navels of display...
Still that's not what this is about I suppose. As for people knocking "navel-gazing" as a genre, accept that as a rule, and there goes all Shakespeare's sonnets, most lyric poetry, any number of great songs, in all kind of traditions.
And of course a rather larger number of songs that aren't too great.
There are good songs about personal feelings and there are bad songs. There are good story songs and there are bad story songs as well. Dismissing songs by categories like "navel-gazing" is just lazy thinking.
Probably any good song involves an act of imagination by the writer - projecting themself into a situation of some kind, telling it from a point of view. It's like any kind of imaginative writing - there's an element of acting in it, even while there's also an autobiographical aspect as well. For some reason people often seem to want to extend that aspect. But really there's no more sense in than confusing the character some actor plays with the real person. There's a link, or it wouldn't work, but there's rarely a one-to-one correspondence. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Judy Predmore Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:10 AM One of my pet peeves, coming from a singer/songwriter enthusiast background & now hanging out mostly in trad circles, is this idea that all navel gazing is bad. To put in slightly different terms, what many of you have said, sometimes the extremely personal is universal, & sometimes the third person story is irrelevant. ie. introspection at it's best strikes a chord in many people, trad & story songs at their worst don't connect with many people. I've come to 3 conclusions: 1) Some people prefer concrete stories, some people prefer introspective abstractions & feelings. 2) Trad songs get more respect, because the worst have been weeded out, so most of what has survived is either well crafted or says something many people can relate to or at least find interesting. 3) As someone above said, many naval gazing songs are more performance oriented & geared toward a unique singing style, so by their very nature, they will not be sung by many people & not be handed down in the oral tradition I don't think whether a song is based on personal experience, history, or imagination is what makes the difference. All of the above can be done well or poorly, all of the above can resonate with people or turn them off. I liked both samples above. Not sure if they'll be around for a few hundred years, but there's a good chance they'll survive a few decades... |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: mousethief Date: 11 Jul 01 - 03:08 AM Here's my own 2 kopeks' worth, for what it's worth. I think a song can be very personal, and still well-received, if the emotions it expresses are emotions that many people have felt (or wanted to feel). What really makes a song connect-with-able is not whether it's based on your life or on a fictional life you dream up, but rather whether it's something your audience can relate to. Actually even that is a little too strong. What matters is that your audience enjoys hearing the song. Whether they guess that you had such an experience, or never had such an experience, is really nothing to the point. They may not relate to it as a feeling they've had or wanted to have; but then again they may just find it funny, or may enjoy "hating" the protagonist you present (which makes murderer-confession songs enjoyable to many people, I would guess). In short, write your song, then present it to some people who can give you an honest evaulation on the question "did you enjoy listening to this song?" -- the psychological questions of WHY they enjoy it don't matter nearly so much as the fact that they do. What is worst of all is if your audience's reaction to your song is "ho-hum. isn't that nice." I'd rather have people actively HATE a song than have them not care one way or the other. At least you'd know you communicated SOMETHING to them! Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:17 AM Its beginning to come clear I think. Sounds like the navel-gazing songs have got a bad name in some quarters due to a proportion of just plain naff songs happening to be in that genre - despite there being many fine examples. A bit like the bodhran thing maybe. Bill D mentions that navel-gazing songs tend to be a new phenomenon - so does that mean that its just a less robust thing (fewer real classics in existence?) As McGrath says, dismissing songs by category is lazy - but it does happen (human nature to categorise?). Judy has a very good point about personal songs not being as transferable as others. W-stop - you weren't missing anything, I wouldn't claim my song was unusual - I was more worried about it being boring and uninteresting (ie - people thinking I was just whingeing on & imposing myself on them). I think I'm just a worry-guts! Mousethief sums the thread up well, in that the main point is whether or not the audience enjoys the song. So I'll stop worrying about navel-gazing and start worrying about that instead! I'll definitely take the advice about presenting the song to a few people to find out whether they like it. Scarey though!!! I sang one of mine at the pub last week - I was singing it specially for Mark as he had not heard it before. When I asked him straight afterward whether he had enjoyed it he said 'No - it was depressing and you need to hit the guitar harder'. Downer or what? Probably served me right though, because it was a song about men that go down the pub all the time & moan about their wives, then throw up and fall over on the way home. Oops. :>) Anyways - I'm not scared of the navel-gazey-diary-thing anymore, so cheers everyone for being my therapists... Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: paddymac Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:56 AM Bummer. I saw this thread and immediately ran out to buy some candles and aromatic oils. Hrumpf. Next time I'll know to read the thread first. *BG* Truth is, this discussion is very interesting and very good. Thanks to all. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:59 AM That sounds like a great topic for a song. A lot of us could relate to that. (Not me personally, because I always have to drive and drop people off; and my wife is perfect in every way, and today is our wdding anniversary.)
So if youi feel like posting it here... |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:42 AM Here's the song that upset the King.... Not pissed - happy Sup up your whiskey & fly away home The pub is on fire & you're all going to burn Chuck up your guts on the bench by the wall Lie there laughing where you fall Landlord good evening I'll have six of your Best Keep them coming I'll be staying all night Rack me up Alongside the rest Next stop Sunday and the morning light I've left my worries at home with the wife I've got a bloody awful life I may not go home at all Sup up your whiskey & fly away home The pub is on fire & you're all going to burn Chuck up your guts on the bench by the wall Lie there laughing where you fall Landlord good evening Its been a bad day You never saw me if the old dragon phones Took me hours just to get away Does my head in how she moans I love my kids and I love my wife But I've got a bloody aweful life I may not go home at all So sup up your whiskey & fly away home The pub is on fire & you're all going to burn Chuck up your guts on the bench by the wall Lie there laughing where you fall Drink up your whiskey & fly away home The pub is on fire & you're all going to burn Chuck up your guts on the bench by the wall Lie there laughing where you fall Me, I'm not pissed I'm just happy Me, I'm not pissed I'm just happy Me, I'm not pissed I'm just happy Me, I'm not pissed I'm just happy Actually - perhaps I can see his point - and maybe I shouldn't have publically dedicated it to him....... Its not really about him - just about a certain type of bloke that I've observed. I thinks its quite an affectionate portrait - but maybe it doesn't come across quite like that. (no navels though) Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: LR Mole Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:29 PM And then, of course, performance/persona Marshall Chapman does a menacing version of "I Walk The Line" (as if Johnny Cash needed more menace) and a friend of mine used to do what she termed a stalker's version of "Suspicious Minds". I've also heard any number of remarkably cheety versions of "Folsom Prison Blues" wherein shooting a Reno resident just to watch him die goes past gloating and into an odd sort of squaredance meter.(Though, come to think of it, that could be pretty effortlesly slid into a rap format). Kris: the anthology was called "Messages" and I assume it's out of print. Students hated it because they enjoy the sensation of spying, I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: LR Mole Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM That should be "cheery". |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Ebbie Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:20 PM I do like this title! It is very visual...:) Thanks, KingBrilliant. One reason I don't sing that song is because once when I did, a friend commented that it was kind of 'a poignant, wistful' song. And that was not the impression I was trying to convey. For me it speaks rather of the exhilaration of peak moments of time. I may be using 'navel gazing' in a different manner than is usual or correct. I tend to think of it as a subject or song that doesn't really stand alone, that cries out for context, ussually given by the singer. The term does not apply to lost-love themes or getting-married songs or will-meet-him-in-heaven themes. We all relate to that, but lyrics that specify a time, place or person- aw, hey, I'll stop. I've already said more than I know. :) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:31 PM What a great thread. At times I have agreed and disagreed with every post and that makes it thought provoking at the very least. Mousethief does a good job summing things up in a way. I think there is more than one dynamic taking place though. You have the relationship of singer to song, song to audience, and singer to audience to consider and much that I have viewed as navel gazing only has the dynamic of singer to song.......nothing else happening. When I hear a song, the relationship the song has to me and within my sphere of experience or imagination seems to mean the most. If I can't relate somehow to what is being sung, it falls flat. There are times hoever that in a live performance, I am taken enough with the singer and their relationship to song and audience, that I enjoy the performance. Later, I buy the CD and listen again and wonder why the hell I ever thought they were worth a shit. I think now of Lisa Loeb who I saw a few years ago on tour with The Lilith Fair thing. She really got me onstage, kinda' funny and one helluva' picker, and very fine relationship to the audience. I was gassed!!! So I but her CD, same songs and all, and SPLAT......hit the bottom like wet towel. Completely impossible for me to relate to, pretty childish and indeed churlish/girlish lyrics..............What happened? I was locked into a performance, not the songs. It's important to understand too that we need not have the experience as a listener to appreciate the song, but let our power of imagination take us to places we haven't been. You can think of songs you love and even sing yourself, songs you deliver well, written by someone else and outside your natural experience, and yet they are quite real thanks to your imagination and sometimes other emotions as well, such as compassion. If you think of Folk Music as a broad and flowing river fed by many tributaries, the "navel gazing/introspective" type songs are one of those tributaries. Years pass and the songs fill the little creek and eventually reach the river.........Well, some of them do. Others are left in backwaters and swamps and evaporate along the way. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Little Neophyte Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:52 PM Dear Mr. King of Brilliance, You sure know how to facilitate a thread. Can I hire you for the threads I start? So you have realized you need not navel gaze navel gazing. Thats good. Something I still need to learn. Loved your second song. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:03 PM Then there's naval gazing - Cyril Tawney for example...
That drunk song looked OK to me. (Though the line "I'll have six of your best" might invite misinterpretation.) Not the kind of song normally meant when people are sneering at navel-gazing. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:21 AM Cheers Neo - btw Mr King is the other half - the one in the pub. I am the Mrs. 'Paw - its those complex relationships between singer song & audience that are fascinating! I am trying SO hard at the moment to understand what it is that makes some performers so watchable and likeable, and the key is in those relationships I'm sure. There are some people who just make you love them as soon as they start to perform, and I would love to bottle that! Ebbie - the tune may make a difference, but the words don't come across as wistful. Poignant yes, but because it speaks of those intense exhilarating emotional moments. But then I suppose that's part of what this thread is about; the fact that what we see in our own song (ie what we actually mean) is not necessarily what the listener sees (he/she is looking from a different angel & with different references). That is the way in all communication, but because a song is a single complete item of communication that difference of interpretation can be (or seem) more important? Mole - that anthology must be bizarre. Do you think it would unsettle people because they would have no guidance as to whether they were 'right' to like or dislike the individual poems? I think that might worry me (pathetic though it is to admit). There is a group element to accepting/rejecting art, which again is part of the audience reaction. McGrath - believe me I had to think hard about which spelling was which!!! - also, I agree about 6 of the best - could be a bit distracting, but its such a yummy phrase that it had to stay. So the new slant to the question is : should we try to map and manipulate the relationships around a song, or just accept that they are too complex to attempt to control & just go with the flow. Ie - should we be all that concerned about songs that don't go down well, or just enjoy the ones that shine when they happen. Work at it, or trust to magic? Kris PS - we've sort of drifted off of the navel thing, but I think that's OK. Its OK to let one question lead to another? |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: LR Mole Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:42 AM Probably a lot of what we're talking about is context, of various kinds. Truism to say that if _________ came out with that poem/album/performance now, it wouldn't succeed.And it's true, a work has to be outrageously impressive to get heard, or read, without any background info. But look at us newer 'Catters: I'm sometimes taken aback when a posting contradicts the picture in my head of the writer. Art can conceal as much as it reveals. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:32 AM Very true Mole. So that's why advertising hype works - creates an artificial context? Hence some of the more lame pop-stuff that seems to get undeserved recognition & popularity. So the relationships can be manipulated, by manipulating context. Scarey! Unless you think of it as nurturing a context to provide a setting for the song - then its sounds quite a good idea.... Those mental pictures of 'Catters are tricksy aren't they? - That's one of the fun things at a mudgathering.... Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: GUEST,Russ Date: 12 Jul 01 - 12:08 PM Excellent thread. I think something is being overlooked. When songs are dismissed as being "contemplating your navel" songs and "singing your diary" songs what you are often hearing is one generation dissing the musical styles and preferences of another generation. The people using such language are trying hard not to sound like their parents: "That's not music." "That stuff is corrupting you kids." "Those people can't sing." etc. If Bob Dylan changed your life and the way you look at music and its place in the world, you will probably not be entirely satisfied with John Gorka. You'll criticize him, but you'll be careful how you phrase it. Russ (a boomer) |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: GUEST,Judy Predmore Date: 14 Jul 01 - 12:30 AM Hmmm, how could I have overlooked the age difference? I'm very aware that I'm on the younger fringe of the trad circles I hang out with. That's such an interesting thought, that they can't tell people only 5 or 15 years younger "what's wrong with the music of you young people today"... Yet they think they have wisdom about what's "better". And the fact that much of the folk revival they grew up with was so socially conscious & politically aware. They grew up singing "We Shall Overcome" in freedom marches, trying to change the world. And somehow that seems nobler than trying to change yourself. I guess with Vietnam & Civil Rights & sexism going on, changing the system had a higher priority than changing individually. So they were the "we" generation, & they see younger folkies growing up in the "me" generation. Some of the naval gazing songs are self indulgent, but as with any artform, the best is universal, & you can't 'dis' an entire artform...
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Barry Finn Date: 14 Jul 01 - 01:18 AM Hi Judy & nice to hear from you, I missed you the other week. You're right Judy, you can't dis an entire art form, but a large percentage of todays singer/songwriters suck, not the form just them. Maybe when their song hangs anound for a while some folks will work them into better songs & then again some don't need any work they're great the way they are but alot of what's being pushed about now is tripe by singers whose real talent lies in their being very good PR people who can/can't sing/play not in their talent as songwriters. This is not to steal the well deserved thunder of those that really do have the talent, but it seems that the pushyer s/s drown out the cream of the crop & only a small percentage of what's good rises to the top. Don't stone me when you see me next, hope to hear/see you soon. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Whistle Stop Date: 16 Jul 01 - 08:09 AM You're right, Barry -- a lot of them do suck. However, a lot of singer/songwriters from days gone by also sucked. I don't really think the ratio of good to bad is really any different now than it ever was. However, there are two dynamics working in favor of the older folks: (1) their best work is primarily what we hear, and (2) nostalgia. I'm old enough to have grown up on the music of the sixties, so I have a soft spot for some of the older stuff myself, but I recognize that a lot of that is pure nostalgia -- not an objective evaluation of the quality of these songs. And in my experience old folkies are among the most nostalgic of people, endlessly reliving the struggles of their youth (no matter how peripheral their involvement may have been), and bemoaning the fact that "Things Have Changed". |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 16 Jul 01 - 08:43 AM If its true that the ratio of good to bad is pretty much the same, then is it also true that the amount of 'dissing' is the same as well? Or if not, then do we have different expectations of quality? Could it be that we are unreasonably expecting every offering to be a classic? A lot of things are marketed and geared to instant gratification (music, food, TV etc) - so does that carry through to folk music too? In terms of not being willing to devote time to listening unless a quality threshhold is exceeded? And if so then is that bad or good? My own attitude has shifted over the last year from 'if someone's prepared to perform, then I'm prepared to listen' toward 'Oh God - if they can't do better than that then I can't be bothered to listen'. I'm not sure what changed, nor which is the more reasonable attitude. I hadn't noticed the generation thing - but I'll pay more attention to who is dissing what in future & see what emerges. I'm not sure that the navel-gazing songs are exclusive to any agegroup though (leaving aside the adolescent soul-searching thing that is a natural developmental thing that I'm sure doesn't change from generation to generation!) Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Whistle Stop Date: 16 Jul 01 - 09:48 AM Good question, Kris. I kind of think that we are bombarded with so much more of everything than we used to be that we have had to get better at tuning out the noise. When I was growing up, there were three television channels -- now there are hundreds. We are constantly surrounded by unwanted music and chatter, which really gets on my nerves, and I don't think I'm alone. Advertising is everywhere, the "media" are everywhere, large corporations have a hand in everything, and all us poor individuals are inundated with the products of all this. With all the competition for our limited attention spans, it isn't surprising if we're short on patience, and unwilling to spend the time to listen to new performers with open ears. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:31 AM Somebody slow the world down - I'm dizzy... I think there must be a backlash soon against all this TV & push media. Its crazy that with all the free time that is available now we end up so wound-up that we don't seem to have any to spare! I'm going to write 'speculate to accumulate' on my hand & hope it reminds me to invest my time more wisely. 'Folk overload' is an interesting concept though! Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: GUEST,RobDale Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:35 PM I've very much enjoyed reading this whole thread. For me this is what Mudcat is all about! My songwriting method involves quite a bit of "reverse engineering". Analyze the great songs, see what makes them work and try to emulate it. In reading this thread I kept trying to think of examples of Navel comtemplation."At Seventeen" - Janis Ian, "Brooklyn Roads" - Neil Diamond, "Fire and Rain" - James Taylor, "Both Sides Now" - Joni Mitchell, and "Sunday Mornin Comin Down" - Kris Kristopherson, What do these songs have in common? They all have an element of self contemplation and self pity. But the narative and visual images which are used to protray the emotions is what makes them great. You can see the lonely girl in "At Seventeen", sad while the other girls are busily doing teen-aged things and leaving her out. You can see the lonely little boy wandering around in "Brooklyn Roads". "Flying machines, in pieces on the ground" representing James Taylor's depression. Joni, projecting her emotions onto the clouds. The character in "Sunday Mornin" doesn't say "Pity me, I'm a helpless alcholic." but the picture painted couldn't be clearer. I think what makes a navel gazing song interesting is novel image or idea which can paint a clear picture in your mind as you listen to the song. I think, to a degree these writers looked at themselves while they were self contemplating, then painted a picture of themselves in that state. P.S. Why do I keep finding good songwriting threads under BS? |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Whistle Stop Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:14 PM Good question, Rob. Like you, I consider this topic to be pretty central to what we're here for -- not BS at all. As for your "reverse engineering" approach, I like it. I would add that the other thing that makes these songs worthwhile is the fact that so many of us can relate to them. Not only were the writers looking into themselves, but by looking within they saw things that were larger than themselves. You don't need to have had the specific experience of walking out Sunday morning with a hangover and smelling fried chicken to relate to Kristofferson's song, or of being an unpopular teenage girl to relate to Janis Ian's. But the emotions they convey are similar to the emotions a lot of us have felt as a result of our own individual experiences, and they are communicated with a skill that allows us to recognize ourselves in them. That's what good songwriting is all about to me -- finding the connection between the personal and the universal, and communicating it effectively. Not everyone is talented enough to do it, and perhaps a lot of the "navel gazers" cannot. But some of them can, and their songs are worth listening to. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Mrs.Duck Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:29 PM Sing my diary?- I'd get arrested! Contemplate my nave? - I'd get lost!! :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: mousethief Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:30 PM Mrs. Duck, are you a church? :o) Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Mrs.Duck Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:40 PM No I'd get lost in one of those as well!!! It should of course read navel. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Jande Date: 16 Jul 01 - 08:39 PM I agree wholeheartedly with Whistle Stop! I couldn't believe my ears the other day when my partner drove up to the gas pumps and they were playing the theme from Star Wars (great music!)right out of the top of the gas pump! Before I could make a judgement as to whether this was "good" or "bad", a man began doing a commercial right over top of the music --for items that the gas station could provide while we were filling up! We vowed we would never again purchase gas there. All this push stuff is making hermits out of sensitive people. And it's everywhere. I can't open my browser sometimes without some website tossing so many java-blown extra windows onto my desktop that Norton System Works AND Zone Alarm both hit the panic button. I'm frankly disgusted with this constant invasion of privacy and psychic space. How can we, as individuals, seek out new music and new musicians when we are constanty trying to stop the incoming flood? As far as navel contemplation goes... I think it behooves us to look closely at ourselves and know to the best of our ability who we are --then give that to the people who appreciate us, whether that be friends, loved ones or audiences for our music. I agree that some do this with much more talent and creativity than others. I only hope that my music falls into that category. From what I heard, Bob Dylan wrote a song that I've always loved as a sweet and romantic one about a man loving a woman. I don'rt really care that it was originally written about his dog, "Lady". Was it Rod Stewart that wrote a gorgeous romantic song (whose title escapes me, atm) that always sends a shiver down my spine. I don't care that he originally wrote it for a football team! LOL! Some things are just universal by nature. [IMHO] ~ Jande (who thinks navels are more than just lint collectors} ;`) |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 17 Jul 01 - 05:13 AM Mrs Duck! You makes I laugh! Reverse engineering looks like a good technique, working back from some reliable & proven aspect. Must be a very good way of analysing (or assimilting) the magic factor. The key phrase is Not only were the writers looking into themselves, but by looking within they saw things that were larger than themselves.. I think the 'bad navel-gazing' that I'm afraid of is that where there is a lack of common reference, and a lack of anything of wider than personal relevance. Which is basically lack of communication - which is a trap which you can fall into in any genre. Is there a more applicable term that covers all songs that don't communicate? Or anyone care to invent a term? I kind of feel I shouldn't call them navel-gazy any more, since there are good navel-gazer songs. I LOVE that 17 song (but then I was an unpopular teenage girl, so I would wouldn't I?). It strikes me that there is a big similarity between comedy and songwriting - this crucial common terms of reference (recognition) thing. Neither works well unless you get it right. Comedy is probably even more unforgiving. Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Jack the Sailor Date: 17 Jul 01 - 09:39 AM A formerly unpopular teenage girl calling herself King... There's certainly a song in there somewhere! I agree KingB, perhaps the poor navel gazing songs occur when the writer is being a little too self centered, not seeing the bigger picture, looking in there and seeing nothing but themselves. I also agree that it can occur in any gendre. Maybe there are just good songs and bad songs and the type of song is not as important as the content. Songs that don't communicate.. Are just poorly written songs. |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: KingBrilliant Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:02 AM Ah - that King thing is a bit misleading I'll admit. Its the surname - I married a King. The Brilliant bit is my own :>) Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS-ish:contemplating someone elses navel From: Jack the Sailor Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:30 AM Cool name! I am sure your are both regal and brilliant! I guess I'll just have to make up my own song! Cheers Rob |
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