German folk music

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:34 PM

I doubt the CD was released in the USA, but if you're really interested I can make you a tape of it, as well as of some other stuff I've got. Maybe there is a way to share a few examples with this thread, if someone put them on their website. Don't know about infringement of copyright, though.
I haven't had time but I will (some day) look for relevant German sites which may even have sound files. A place to start might be Old Songs New Songs, a German folk music mail order firm, but the site is in English. If you click on 'Search Catalogue' you can scroll down to various sections on Germany. There are no infos on the artists, though, just the list of albums.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 12:03 PM

That link didn't work for me, Susanne!

G.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:06 PM

I don't blame you, George! Somehow the Mudcat got into it ... This ought to do the trick.

---

Link updated August 2007 - Joe Offer

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:15 PM

The link didn't work for me, either, alas.

Susanne, your last post touches on the kind of thing that got me wondering about German folk music in the first place - songs about emigrants, criminals, workers, travellers, etc, in other words the very things that attract me to traditional songs from other countries. I would dearly love to get my hands on some of the CDs you refer to, but I would rather stay on the right side of the copyright law. Perhaps you could post a few titles with the publishers' name and catalogue number. I could probably order them through HMV.

You might be interested to know that at one time, the British had the greatest possible respect for German folk music. During the Napoleonic wars, German units in British service fought alongside the British. Lewis Winstock, in "Songs and Music of the Redcoats 1642-1902", writes "...the war music of the Germans, who fought with the redcoats on several fronts, was treated with an admiration that bordered on awe." It was the Germans' choral singing in particular that impressed the British soldiers. Winstock quotes one soldier who compared "those tuneless airs in which the lower orders of our countrymen delight" with the Germans who "sang beautifully a wild chorus, a hymn to the Virgin, different persons taking different parts and producing altogether the most exquisite harmony." Apparently, during the American Civil War, the best bands were German, and the best regimental singing was done by Germans.

I have a particular interest in soldiers' songs. I wonder what songs Sharpe's rifles might have heard when they were camped alongside the King's German Legion?

CET

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:25 PM

Of course "those tuneless airs in which the lower orders of our countrymen delight" were probably what we now quite rightly recognise as splemdid folk songs. (Remember, there was a time when the Alps were seen as hideous by the cognoscenti of the day.)

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:05 AM

Edmund,

I first try a link to an awfully expensive new book about German soldier's songs (in German, with a double CD added). It seems to be a scholarly work and receives praise in all newspapers from right to left. If my wife has understood a gently hint I'll find it under the Christmas tree:

Ich hatt' einen Kameraden. von Uli Otto, Eginhard König

You're right about some of the good songs being misused. For instance, the title of the Hitler youth songbook was 'Uns geht die Sonne nicht unter', a line from a song which rather represents the opposite to Nazi ideas in its lyrics. However, if I scan thew titles in this book and the titles in German WWII songs CDs on the web, I find that all the songs with positive descriptions of foreign countries, with positive descriptions of minorities and those with disobedience against wrong rulers (if more recent than the peasant uprising in the Middle ages) and particularly all songs expressing ideas of freedom (notable exception above: uns geht die Sonne nie unter) and criticising the military are left out.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 05:42 AM

Thanks, Susanne . . new version of the link works. Sadly the site's "themed indexes" are badly broken, but the keyword search is fine. (However it doesn't list the Dick Gaughan CD on Wundertuete -sp?- so I guess that's no longer available).

(Don't try accessing "Spanish: Galician and Asturian" from the Celtic section of their menu . . it gives a list of about 400 results, and I couldn't spot any APPROPRIATE results there . . Similarly the German: Kletzmer and Jewish category doesn't give any results, while the separate themed link for Kletzmer does include some German records . . )

Yes, Wolfgang, "awfully expensive" seems pretty fair . . If it does appear under the Christmas tree do let us know what the quality of the CDs is like!!

Thanks to you both, and to the other contributers.

George

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Letty
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 05:52 AM

Re: (If you can lay your hands on any Zupfgeigenhansel recordings, hold on to them!)

Zupfgeigenhansel and Liederjan recordings can be ordered at www.amazon.de.

Letty

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 06:49 AM

Susanne, Wolfgang, others

Are ther any books on german folk song, folk lore etc. which I can usefully include in a new COUNTRIES/Germany subsection of the Basic Folk Library? My German is very poor, so I can't do the detailed bibliographical research I would normally do for the other books/sections but anything you can give me would add to the resource. Someone could also correct any mistakes!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 07:22 AM

Yes, there are, Ian, but as you want to have them a bit more detailed than just "Zupfgeigenhansel" you'll have to wait for the details. A tentative list from memory to be filled with details (from the library at home):

Steinitz
Der Zupfgeigenhansel
Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Das sind unsere Lieder (Kröher)
Der Turm (?, or rather not?)
Zupfgeigenhansel (this time not a title as above, but the authors)
(here comes the one with the best notes, but I can't remember the title)

Susanne, do you think we should go down to songbooks like 'Das kleine dicke Liederbuch', 'Mundorgel', the 'Student fuer Europa' series, or stick to a small list?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 07:37 AM

Jumping back a little way; I note that the FolkWorld "editors" Top 10 for 2000 includes two German folk recordings; see:

http://www.folkworld.de/17/e/top10.html

(I usually find their musical tastes pretty good, so these might well be worth a try . . )

Just see what you find when you start tidying your electronic desk . .

G.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 08:01 AM

I was just wondering if the phrase "curly pow" appeared anywhere in German folk music?

Spaw

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Hollowfox
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:50 PM

Has anybody heard a group called Wolgemut? They're based in Berlin, but they came to Pennsylvania a couple of weeks ago. They do mostly medieval/Renaissance era pieces, and occasionally write a tune in that style. They're great; I haven't seen an "early music" group with so much energy since I saw the Baltimore Consort at Old Songs Folk Festival a few years ago. I'm a cheapskate and I bought their CD! Their website is at http://www.wolgemut.com

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:13 PM

Wolfgang

Thanks for the titles above. I await details with bated breath!!!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Burke
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:47 PM

I'm trying without much luck to get some fuller citations from a US book catalog database. Here's what I've found so far.

Das sind unsere lieder : ein liederbuch / Herausgegeben von Hein & Oss Kröher; mit 32 farbigen bildern und 73 schwarzweitsen zeichnungen von Gertrude Degenhardt. Gutenberg : Büchergilde, 1977. [9], 432 p. : ill., plates ; 27 cm.

Des Knaben Wunderhorn -- Mahler wrote a piece with this title making yours difficult to locate. There appears to be a 19th cent. collection (words only?) by Ludwig Achim von Arnim. Reprinted a lot. Is this it?

Der Turm -- found a play

Zupfgeigenhansel-- like you said, recordings only found.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:54 PM

spaw

I haven't found any German versions, but there's at least one from the USA

"Prink half an hour, and put on her wad," answered the irreverent Tom, whose preparations for school consisted in flinging his cap on to his head, and strapping up several big books, that looked as if they were sometimes used as weapons of defence.

"What is a wad?" asked Polly, while Fanny marched up without deigning any reply.

"Somebody's hair on the top of her head in the place where it ought not to be;" and Tom went whistling away with an air of sublime indifference as to the state of his own "curly pow."

From "An Old Fashoined Girl" by Louisa May Alcott ... so now you know what a "Wad" is, too.

;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Jim Krause
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM

Toadfrog,

Another thing that surprises me a bit about Mudcat is that almost no one seems to know any foreign languages (except Irish, which is decidedly the in thing.

Jie schriewe daut niemaun kaun irjent spoake auls Enjlisch vestone. Daut's faulsch. Ekj kaun kleen beet Nädasasisch, Dietsch, un Spaunisch vestone. Ekj schriewe auf Enjlisch so jedemaun kaun mie vestone, nich woa?

Translation:
You write than no one can speak any language but English. That's incorrect. I can understand a little Nether Saxon, German, and Spanish. I write in English so everyone can understand me, right?.

As far a German folksong goes, the only one I ever heard of was Du, Du Liegst Mir im Herzen, unless you count German language hymns as a type of folksong.
Jim

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 03:29 PM

Well THANK YOU Ian!!! Really! I love it!!

Even though, as you may be aware, that was a joke aimed at Wolfgang, once again, even a syupid joke can result in something neat.

Spaw

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 06:19 PM

Burke, your first book is a real treasure, not least for Gertrude Degenhardt's drawings. (She has also done several album sleeves.) Unfortunately, the book has not been listed in the publishers' catalogue for a year or two, so I presume it's out of print. For the last book, you could try the spelling Zupfgeigenhansl, as that was the way the original songbook was spelled, I believe.
Others, like 'The Small Fat Songbook' by Heide Buhmann and Hanspeter Haeseler (mentioned by Wolfgang above), should be difficult to find on the Net. This book was a labour of love and, as far as I know, is sold mostly by the authors, not by a commercial distributor.
There is also a 'Folk-Lexikon' by Kaarel Siniveer which lists a lot of people - not exclusively German - omits even more and ends in 1980; 'Deutsch-Folk - Searching for the lost tradition', a slim volume by Florian Steinbiss which tries to explain the roots of the German folk revival in the British and American revivals before it and touches on topics mentioned here (interesting, but by no means exhaustive); 'A History of Folk Music' by Juergen Frey and Kaarel Siniveer; and collections like 'Raeuber- und Landsknechtslieder' (Songs of robbers and mercenaries) by Wilhelm Scherf, not always reliable as to facts; collections of women's songs, ecological songs or protest songs from the German anti-nuclear movement.
You might have a look at the DVA's website - the German Folksong Archive, housed in a charming 19th century villa at Freiburg in the Black Forest. Some day I'll have to move there! As you can see frióm their website they don't confine themselves to German material - they've just purchased Dave Harker's library!

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Rank
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:49 PM

Sorry, but I thought that the only country in the world where national traditions were treated with derision was England. Scotland and Ireland both have strong traditions for instance. England is becoming very dumbed down across the spectrum. Come back Margaret, all is forgiven.

To the point. Micheal Wright presented a very interesting series of workshops on the melodic Jew's harp at the Whitby festival. It appears to be very much a worldwide instrument, but one which is neglected and derided in England, while still used in Scotland and Ireland. Germany appear to have a stronger tradition here and it is one of the places you can buy good quality instruments from. Maybe Germany has other stronger traditions than England. Shouldn't be difficult.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:09 AM

Dear Edmund,

sorry that I missed your question at the beginning, I just returned from a longer holiday. The cause you don't hear much about German folksong in America might be the fact that they are sung in Germany (still vividly). Forget your guess about political implications, most of German folksongs are much older than the political systems who had to take them into their songbooks. You won't find many CDs of this genre on the market because you can't make so much money with them like The Beatles or E. Presley & al. Often you can get a disc or cassette produced by groups and bands of a common site (town or county), the media are sold locally. Far away from the oomtah-music (volkstuemlich) was a TV series of visits to Bavarian folk musicians under the title "Wastl Fenderl's white-blue music sheet" emitted for years by the Bavarian Network - pure folk music of the highest quality. There still goes on the traditional singing at home: I remember how I learnt some folksongs from my grandmother in her kitchen while she rummaged with the pots. Some songs I learned from a journeying blacksmith I occasionally met. And so it happens all over the country. And at our gatherings of old scoutmasters (mid50s to 70s) we still learn new songs - just for fun. There are some fine collections of German folksongs to be found in the Library of Congress: Title: Deutscher Liederhort, and personal name: Erk (THE classical collection, 19. century) Title: Deutsche Lieder, and Keyword any place: Insel (With new songs of the 20. century, too) Title: Zupfgeigenhansl (wonderful small collection with fine silhouettes). Alas, a lot of contributors of this thread are a bit careless with their orthography. Note the different writing of Zupfgeigenhansl (title) and Zupfgeigenhansel (corporate name). Of the latter, Thomas' family name is NOT Fritz, but Friz! (Met him two years ago at a private song festival). About a folk revival and the role of Burg Waldeck I can't say much; at this time we had sung for so many years the folksongs we loved with the scouts and at school.

Sing and enjoy, Wilfried

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:41 AM

Wilfried,

Thanks for your post. I would like to get hold of a recording by Zupfgeigenhansel, since they come so highly recommended.

Perhaps you can answer another idle question of mine. Does German folk music have a tradition of the "night visiting song". This is the genre of song which goes like this:

Boy, knocking on girl's window: Let me in. I'm freezing.

Girl: No, I can't. My parents will hear.

Boy: Oh, come on. They won't hear anything.

Girl: OK

Following which, they either roll in each other's arms the whole night long, or else the mother does hear and gives the daughter a thrashing, while the boy beats a retreat. A singer I heard at a festival recently referred to these, as a joke, as "fenster lieder". It occurs to me that there might be real fenster lieder in German.

Edmund

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:21 AM

Edmund,
Night visiting song (engl. transl. of German original)

Dat Du min leevsten büst (hidden in the thread), the best known German (dialect) night visiting song

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:05 AM

Wolfgang, thanks once again. Your computer skills and knowledge of music leave me in awe. Do you have any details on the Folkfriends LP. Is it too much to hope for that it has been reissued on CD?

Edmund

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:32 AM

Edmund,
there have been two Folk Friends double-LPs and they seem to be reissued as CDs, look here for one of them. The track list seems to me very close to the original double LP, but I would have to check at home with my LPs to make sure. Susanne (above) has linked to 'Old songs new songs' which might be a better place to order these CDs.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:46 AM

OK Wolfgang (lyric challenge alert) - several years ago I had an employee from Kronberg (im Taunus) who had recently finished his National Service in the Alpenjäger Artillery (take that 120mm mortar to the top of the mountain on a donkey? Right away, sir!). One one of many pleasant beery nights in the pub, he taught me a cheery little song which, due to the passage of time, I have forgotten. Maybe you could remind me...

Something about 'As I was walking to Paris' and meeting a little lady who provided me with gebäck... I can sort of remember the tune, and that it was quite funny in a double-entendre way.

Maybe it's not a brilliant song, but I was overjoyed to learn a mucky and humorous song in German at the time. It overcame a few preconceptions, I can tell you.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:19 AM

England is becoming very dumbed down across the spectrum. Come back Margaret, all is forgiven.

No it bloody isn't, and never will be. That was when the rot set in.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM

So our Guest is ready to forgive Margaret . .

Who in her turn is all too ready to forgive Pinochet . .

Who appears to be something of a fan of Franco . .

Who we all know to have been a good friend of Hitler . .

Who is not unconnected with the cloud which overshadows German folk music.

So it IS all on topic after all!

G.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

Sing Out! magazine had an article entitled, "Folk Music in Germany, The Replenished Wellspring" in the Winter 1997 issue (Vol. 42, No. 3), and an article entitled, "Alde Deitsche Lieder; The Pensylvania German Folk Music Tradition," in the May/June/July 1997 issue (Vol. 42, No. 1). Back issues can be ordered here.

In the first article the author, Ken Hunt, states (perhaps optimistically, given the thoughts of those above?), "Today, Germany is no longer burdened with the perception that its 'lost tradition' is the goose of propaganda force-feeding or, at the other extreme, the lamb of politicla malnourishment. German folk music has broken free of its association with state politics." He recommends Tanz&FolkFeset Rudolstadt in early July, and its cds produced each year. There's a long list of recommended recordings at the end of the article,and contact info for numerous groups.

Tthe second article focuses on the dying Pennsylvania German dialect (and associated music) and folks who are working to preserve it. A few small festivals are mentioned, and a few cassettes listed.

(I've got no particular expertise in either area, but the thread caught my eye because of my mother's Pennsylvania German family connections, and I remembered seeing these articles. Hope they're of use.)

~ Becky in Tucson, Arizona

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Rank
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:46 PM

We seem prone to remember the bad things, but not the good. Margaret I seem to think was elected and has therefore to shoulder the blame for the wrongs of the English people. It is the English people who don't buy British lamb, beef, cars, and oodles of other products. If we don't have a manufacturing base anymore who is to blame? The same people who laugh and jeer at morris dancers are embarassed by our oral tradition and who watch soap operas on television all the time.

I seem to think Hitler was elected too. I presume it follows that he did everything himself then.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 10:53 PM

Thanks again, Wolfgang. By the way, I've ordered the "Ich hatte ein Kameraden" book and CD set. I'll let you know how it turns out (unless you're expecting to get it for Christmas and you want it to be a surprise.)

Edmund

Subject: A Basic German Folksong Library
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 05:56 AM

Dai,
I cannot help with the song, the equivalent to Mudcat Forum for German songs is here. You may post in English there.

German political and folk songs during the revival is a short and interesting online article.

Ian (but not only Ian),
below you find a short list of German folksong books

Wolfgang

A Basic German Folksong Library

There are innumerable German folksong books of which I know only a small part and the best of those I know are below. It is a very personal choice and I add some remark to make clear what to expect in the unlikely case you should consider buying them. One of them, Steinitz, I once have donated to the Cecil Sharp Library (London) for their patience and kindness when I was there for days in succession. If it is still open to the public you should be able to see it there.
The 'must have' are in boldface (from a collector's point of view, the 'must have ' from a singer's point of view is the last entry).

L. A. von Arnim & C. Brentano, Des Knaben Wunderhorn (the lad's miraculous horn), orig. 1806/1808, many reprints, e.g. from DTV, 3 volumes, 1984.
notes: about 1500 songs without tunes, no explanation to the songs, at least in my edition
comment: an old and at that time very valuable collection, many of the songs not sung today

W. Steinitz, "Der grosse Steinitz", Deutsche Volkslieder demokratischen Charakters aus sechs Jahrhunderten (The big Steinitz, German folksongs of a democratic character from six centuries), 2 vol., East-Berlin, 1955, later reprints e.g. by Zweitausendeins, probably out of print today and very hard to find.
notes: about 300 songs not counting variants and parodies, no tunes, scholarly annotated
comment: the nearest I know to Child, edited in the GDR, therefore a predictable political bias with notable omissions, but a great book nevertheless

E. Klusen, Deutsche Lieder (German songs), Insel Verlag, 1980
notes: about 800 songs with tunes and annotations
comment: no bias whatsoever discernible for me, a great collection from the earliest known songs until today

H. Breuer, Der Zupfgeigenhansl (Johnny with a guitar), orig. 1908, many reprints until today by Schott Verlag.
notes: about 250 songs with tunes and chords; attention some reprints are in the original 'fraktur' writing (a page in Fraktur as an example) that makes reading difficult if you are not used to it.
comment: songs sung by the 'Bündische Jugend', the nonmilitary faction of the boy scouts, in the political spectrum you might called them the conservative antiauthoritarians)

The next three are examples from the left-wing folksong revival in the 1960s. They are more or less interchangeable with a big overlap in songs. One of them would be enough for a collector:

H. & O. Kröher, Das sind unsere Lieder (These are our songs), Edition Büchergilde, no date
notes: 218 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more international in the choice of songs than the other two; a rare find in it is a German version of Whiskey in the jar

T. Friz & E. Schmeckenbecher, Es wollt' ein Bauer früh aufstehn (a farmer wanted to stand up early), Pläne Verlag, 1978
notes: 222 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more old German songs than the other two

A. Stern, Lieder gegen den Tritt (songs against the marching step), Politische Lieder aus fünf Jahrhunderten (Political songs from five centuries), Asso Verlag, undated.
notes: more than 300 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more political songs than the other two)

H.W.Schmidt, Uns geht die Sonne nicht unter, Lieder der Hitler Jugend (The sun doesn't go down for us, songs of the Hitler youth), 1934, out of print in Germany, no reprints allowed, only available outside of Germany second hand at those places where you get Nazi symbols and all that crap
notes: about 150 songs with tunes and without any comment, attentiononly available in Fraktur print (see Zupfgeigenhansl)
comment: I have long considered not mentioning it here but I have decided to include it for its historical value and to add an antidote (next entry); many of the songs are common German folksongs, only about 20% of them are explicit Nazi songs

no editor, Das Lagerliederbuch, Lieder gesungen, gesammelt und geschrieben im Konzentrationslager Sachsenhausen, 1942 (songs sung, collected, and written in Sachsenhausen concentration camp), Pläne Verlag, 1980.
notes: about 130 songs without tunes and annotations, attention in reprinted handwriting, not always easy to read
comment: this is a reprint of a handwritten illegal booklet existing in Sachsenhausen concentration camp in which the inmates collected their songs, old and new. The famous anti-Nazi songs (e.g., peatbog soldiers/Moorsoldaten) are in there as well as common German folksongs. Some of the songs are even the same songs as found in the Hitler youth songbook of their wardens.

K. Schilling & H. König, Der Turm (the tower), Voggenreiter Verlag, 1952ff (new editions continuously altered)
notes: more than 500 songs with tunes and chords, but not annotated; attention my fairly recent edition is still in Fraktur print (see Zupfgeigenhansl), I don't know if the very conservative boy scouts leadership considers compromising with modern times regarding the print
comment: the songbook of the boy scouts, songs old, new and international

H. Buhmann & H.P. Haeseler, Das kleine dicke Liederbuch (little thick songbook), 3rd edition 1983, own printing, out of print now according to Amazon, will be reprinted soon
notes: more than 300 songs with tunes and chords, short annotations
comment: songs that are sung in Germany today, most still in German, from old folksongs to very new songs from the hit parades, the German equivalent to 'Rise up singing'. If you want to buy only one book to be able to sing with Germans when meeting them, you should buy this book.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:01 AM

Wolfgang

Thanks a lot. Working on it. I'll put a message on the Basic Folk Library PermaThread when it's all in. Shouldn't be too long.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM

and now with the boldface closed:

A Basic German Folksong Library

There are innumerable German folksong books of which I know only a small part and the best of those I know are below. It is a very personal choice and I add some remark to make clear what to expect in the unlikely case you should consider buying them. One of them, Steinitz, I once have donated to the Cecil Sharp Library (London) for their patience and kindness when I was there for days in succession. If it is still open to the public you should be able to see it there.
The 'must have' are in boldface (from a collector's point of view, the 'must have ' from a singer's point of view is the last entry).

L. A. von Arnim & C. Brentano, Des Knaben Wunderhorn (the lad's miraculous horn), orig. 1806/1808, many reprints, e.g. from DTV, 3 volumes, 1984.
notes: about 1500 songs without tunes, no explanation to the songs, at least in my edition
comment: an old and at that time very valuable collection, many of the songs not sung today

W. Steinitz, "Der grosse Steinitz", Deutsche Volkslieder demokratischen Charakters aus sechs Jahrhunderten (The big Steinitz, German folksongs of a democratic character from six centuries), 2 vol., East-Berlin, 1955, later reprints e.g. by Zweitausendeins, probably out of print today and very hard to find.
notes: about 300 songs not counting variants and parodies, no tunes, scholarly annotated
comment: the nearest I know to Child, edited in the GDR, therefore a predictable political bias with notable omissions, but a great book nevertheless

E. Klusen, Deutsche Lieder (German songs), Insel Verlag, 1980
notes: about 800 songs with tunes and annotations
comment: no bias whatsoever discernible for me, a great collection from the earliest known songs until today

H. Breuer, Der Zupfgeigenhansl (Johnny with a guitar), orig. 1908, many reprints until today by Schott Verlag.
notes: about 250 songs with tunes and chords; attention some reprints are in the original 'fraktur' writing (a page in Fraktur as an example) that makes reading difficult if you are not used to it.
comment: songs sung by the 'Bündische Jugend', the nonmilitary faction of the boy scouts, in the political spectrum you might called them the conservative antiauthoritarians)

The next three are examples from the left-wing folksong revival in the 1960s. They are more or less interchangeable with a big overlap in songs. One of them would be enough for a collector:

H. & O. Kröher, Das sind unsere Lieder (These are our songs), Edition Büchergilde, no date
notes: 218 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more international in the choice of songs than the other two; a rare find in it is a German version of Whiskey in the jar

T. Friz & E. Schmeckenbecher, Es wollt' ein Bauer früh aufstehn (a farmer wanted to stand up early), Pläne Verlag, 1978
notes: 222 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more old German songs than the other two

A. Stern, Lieder gegen den Tritt (songs against the marching step), Politische Lieder aus fünf Jahrhunderten (Political songs from five centuries), Asso Verlag, undated.
notes: more than 300 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more political songs than the other two)

H.W.Schmidt, Uns geht die Sonne nicht unter, Lieder der Hitler Jugend (The sun doesn't go down for us, songs of the Hitler youth), 1934, out of print in Germany, no reprints allowed, only available outside of Germany second hand at those places where you get Nazi symbols and all that crap
notes: about 150 songs with tunes and without any comment, attentiononly available in Fraktur print (see Zupfgeigenhansl)
comment: I have long considered not mentioning it here but I have decided to include it for its historical value and to add an antidote (next entry); many of the songs are common German folksongs, only about 20% of them are explicit Nazi songs

no editor, Das Lagerliederbuch, Lieder gesungen, gesammelt und geschrieben im Konzentrationslager Sachsenhausen, 1942 (songs sung, collected, and written in Sachsenhausen concentration camp), Pläne Verlag, 1980.
notes: about 130 songs without tunes and annotations, attention in reprinted handwriting, not always easy to read
comment: this is a reprint of a handwritten illegal booklet existing in Sachsenhausen concentration camp in which the inmates collected their songs, old and new. The famous anti-Nazi songs (e.g., peatbog soldiers/Moorsoldaten) are in there as well as common German folksongs. Some of the songs are even the same songs as found in the Hitler youth songbook of their wardens.

K. Schilling & H. König, Der Turm (the tower), Voggenreiter Verlag, 1952ff (new editions continuously altered)
notes: more than 500 songs with tunes and chords, but not annotated; attentionmy fairly recent edition is still in Fraktur print (see Zupfgeigenhansl), I don't know if the very conservative boy scouts leadership considers compromising with modern times regarding the print
comment: the songbook of the boy scouts, songs old, new and international

H. Buhmann & H.P. Haeseler, Das kleine dicke Liederbuch (little thick songbook), 3rd edition 1983, own printing, out of print now according to Amazon, will be reprinted soon
notes: more than 300 songs with tunes and chords, short annotations
comment: songs that are sung in Germany today, most still in German, from old folksongs to very new songs from the hit parades, the German equivalent to 'Rise up singing'. If you want to buy only one book to be able to sing with Germans when meeting them, you should buy this book.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:26 AM

Rank Guest: I think what you wrote is utter nonsense, but this is not the thread in which discuss it. So if you want that discussion do post your view in a thread of its own - and remember to attach a BS label to it.

Wolfgang, thanks as ever for the effort you are putting into making us better informed.

G.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:56 AM

Edmund,

in former times a lot of young men tried to meet their loved ones in their rooms, mostly via the window. In Bavaria tgey used ladders, and this way has an own term of technology: Fensterln = windowing. Naturally, there are a lot of songs about rejection at the window or at the door.

Unfortunately I only know one song which I learned in the famous Hessian Jaeger-Bataillon (first in Yorktown, last out). It is an old folksong, originally in 3/4, but by the soldiers it was transformed to 4/4 an 6/4, in a long striding pace preferred by them for marching purposes. It runs like this:

1. The moon is shing bright, so I can't sleep this night. I have an appointment with my girl. To my girl I must go, before her window I stop standing. 2.Who is knocking outside, so I can't sleep all the night? I won't rise, since my parents aren't sleeping yet. 3. I'll give you a shining dollar (Taler), if you let me sleep with you this night. - Take your dollar and march off home; look for another one for sleeping! 4. Youll cry and lament because you let me sleep alone this night. You'll be sorry and will wish you had the dollar in your purse.

Sometimes I still sing it in the bathtub, but it is best performed by a marching platoon.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:29 AM

Wolfgang's list of songbooks can't go unopposed.

At first there is missing the most important collection: Deutscher Liederhort, coll. by Ludwig Erk, ed. by Franz M. Boehme. Originally printed in 1893 it was repr. 1963 by Olms in Hildesheim.

Steinitz's work is excellent, and of a high scientific approach. He discusses a lot of variants of the songs. Unfortunately Buhmann and Haeseler in their little thick songbook are of the opposite persuasion. Their book can be used only with the utmost caution, because the lyrics are corrupted, changed or whole parts left out. The comments to the song may be correct from the leftist point of view but they are mostly wrong; wishful thinking is the opposite of scientific work.

W.'s comment about the songbook Der Turm (the Tower) semms to follow the same path. The font face has nothing to do with the alleged conservatism of scout masters. As anybody used to read can see, it isn't Fraktur, but written by hand in an easy going face without much roundings.

This book is NOT the songbook of the Boy Scouts; it was only adapted by the numerous scout organizations in Germany together with their own official songbooks. It's roots are in the romantic non-boy-scout youth movement of the early fifties. It doesn't contain many traditional German folksongs, but songs from this movement. A second volume was published in the beginnig of the sixties, containig mostly internatinal folksongs, some old compositions of the 16. century for 4-5 voices, and a special section: the crazy tower with a lot of funny songs. Especially the great international section was of good use for us in understanding foreign people (according to Herder's famous title the voices of the peoples in theit songs).

An addition to the Zupfgeigenhansl (Johnny Guitar): There is an edition by Scherrer, Royal Bavarian Chamber Guitarrist, with easy accompaniments for guitar (my edition of 1917). If you ever have the chance to come across, grab it and hold it.

Sing and enyoy

Wilfried

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:58 AM

A page with links to German songs and a short bibliography

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

Wilfried,
I'm grateful for all additions for my list isn't thought as a closed list which I am willing to 'defend'.
You're right in correcting my statement about the font in Der Turm. Sorry about my mistake.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:13 AM

Wolfgang

Should I put stuff under COUNTRIES / Germany or COUNTRIES / Deutschland ?

Thanks!
Ian

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:25 AM

Ian,
very slight bias for 'Germany', but it doesn't really matter.
Could you please correct my error in Der Turm which Wilfried has pointed out? Easiest way is to replace my old note to that book by:

note: more than 500 songs with tunes and chords, but not annotated; attention: my fairly recent edition is still in a difficult to read handwriting print, I don't know if the very conservative boy scouts leadership considers compromising with modern times regarding the print

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 12:39 PM

Wolfgang / Wilfried

I've now added the Germany section to the web version of < a href=http://www.kirbymanor.cwc.net/BookList/FolkLibrary.html>The Folk Libraru. Could you check it out for any inaccuracies.

Thanks
Ian

PS. There are some more items of information on this thread yet to be added.

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

I could be pursuaded to transcribe the lists from the Sing Out! article ("A Beginner's Guide to German Folk Recordings" and the list of groups) if there's interest.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

May I try to persuade you, Becky? I'd love to see those lists.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Rank
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM

To George H

Sorry if you missed the point, but I agree it's getting too much a side issue.

Subject: Beginner's Guide to German Folk Recordings
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 01:45 AM

From Sing Out! Magazine, Vol. 42 #3, article by Ken Hunt (I've not included the full notes on each, and please forgive the lack of diacriticals):

A Beginner's Guide to German Folk Recordings

Steffen Basho-Junghans (guitarist): "Guitar Soli" (Takoma #8902), "Fleur De Lis 1" (Blue Moment rts #004) and Fleur De Lis 2 (#005)

Dissidenten (world beat): "Sahara Electrik" (Exil #5505), "The Jungle Book" (Exil #5516), "Instinctive Traveler" (Exil #5535), http://www.exil.de

Thomas Felder (Austrian dialect - Swabian): "Schwaebische Vesper" (Musik & Wort #900)

Hoelderlin Express (includes electric hurdy gurdy (!)): "Holderlin Express" (Akku Disk #3025), "Electric Flies" (#3028)

Hundsbuam Miserablige ("a key element in the scene"): "Hundsbuam Miserablige" (BMG/Lawine #74321 34211), "Hui" (BMG/Lawine #74321 47599)

JAMS (dance music): "Bastard" (Wundertute #146), "Bastardmusik" (#156), "Fisch" (John Silver #004) http://members.aol.com/jamsberlin

Klaus der Geiger (Klaus von Wrochem, fiddler & fire and brimstone street preacher): "Klaus der Geiger und die Kolner Strassenmusiker" (MiC #8853 2)

The Merlons (early music style): "Naked Nature" (musical Tragedies #12242)

Cathrin Pfeifer (accordionist formerly with JAMS): "Panico na Panificadora" (TonArt #005)

Christof Stahlin (songwriter): "Promenade" (Nomen + Omen #15)

Trio Grande (a quartet, instrumental): "Nabucodonosor" (Verlag der Spielleute #9005), "Bagage" (#9501), http://www.reichmann.de/triogrande

U.L.M.A.N. (dance music): "Acoustic Power" (RUM/Lowezahn #2122)

Wacholder (post WWII folk music): "In Der Heimat Ist Es Schon (Stockfisch #357.6009; 1994), "Landgang" (Stockfisch #357.6015; 1996)

Zapf'nstreich (instrumental): "MCMXCVI" (Pantaleon Records #10028; 1996)

Collections:

Bavarian: "Munchen" (Tridont #0899) and "Bayern" (#0196) - derived from recordings made ca. 1900-1940.

From the Rudolstadt world music festival: "Tanz&FolkFest Rudolstadt 1991" and annually (Hai Deck)

----------

It's apparent that Ken Hunt was using "folk" in the broad sense, rather than meaning strictly traditional music. Perhaps you can comment on these, Wolfgang? Contact information for all the record companies is also listed in the article.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 08:22 AM

Dear Ian,

have checked your list, thank you for taking some of my hints. This weekend I have a lot to do, but will send my comments and corrections soon. Are you interested in more German songbooks?

Tried to send you this message via your web page mentioned above, but got the report: "unable to find the server".

Best regards Wilfried

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

Desert Dancer, thanks for copying out the list. Must have been quite a task!

Quite a few of the names in the list are from 'the new states', the late GDR. Steffen Junghans took his middle name in reverence to Robbie Basho - a hint at the direction of his musical tastes.
Dissidenten were one of the best-known GDR bands, but I wouldn't have listed them under folk. (Maybe that's because my taste doesn't run to folk rock.)
JAMS have been mentioned. They call their music 'bastard music' because it's a mixture of everything they like, from trad tunes to Balkan styles and folk rock. I believe they also see it as a political statement, namely that there is no 'pure' culture, that all culture is a mixture of influences.
Cathrin Pfeifer does not play 'German' folk music, either, as is apparent from the title given.
U.L.M.A.N. are two brothers and a cousin, all very young when they first shot to fame on the folk scene some ten years ago. Their father (uncle) Peter Ullmann was in the thick of the GDR folk scene for as long as it existed, and now organises Rudolstadt Folk Festival, so they grew up steeped in folk music. They are no traditionalists, though, but have developed their own distinctive style.
Wacholder was a trio of folk stalwarts and goes back a long way, I believe. After being reunited with the rest of Germany they did joint tours with Dick Gaughan, the Sands Family and Iain MacKintosh, among others, but finally decided to pack it in last year.
Zapf'nstreich I don't know, not even where they're from.
Thomas Felder and Christof Staehlin are two of the best German songwriters, with a very definite political slant. Felder writes in his native 'badisch' dialect, from the Black Forest area. Staehlin has a very idiosyncratic style, which can get monotonous, but his lyrics are definitely worth studying.
Hoelderlin Express is another outfit integrating many different influences into their take on folk music. (I'm not sure they still exist, though.)
Hundsbuam - I know their name but not their music, so I'd better pass on this one. Same goes for Trio Grande.
Klaus der Geiger is (iirr) a classically trained violinist who decided about thirty or forty years ago to spend his life as a busking fiddler and singer of political songs in and around Cologne. He is a legend on the folk scene, and I believe he has recently published a book of memoirs.

Ken Hunt seems to have made a rather eclectic choice of German folk music, but this may have to do with the content of his article. Maybe he thought bands like Bierfiedler and Liederjan (who both celebrated their 25 years together recently) too popular to mention, but they have certainly had a seminal influence on the German folk scene and are still going strong, as are songwriters like Hannes Wader, Helmut Debus from East Friesland and the Biermoesl Blosn from Bavaria. I'd have expected him to mention Grenzgaenger, the duo that did the CD of German emigration songs and won the German Folk Award and other prestigious awards in 1995. The dance scene hasn't been mentioned, but that's a topic I leave to more knowledgeable people.
Apologies again for the length of my posting. I must have too much time on my hands! (Not that I've noticed so far ...)

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 02:44 AM

Ian, Wolfgang and others,

over the weekend I have looked up some German songbooks in print. Look at my page

http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gb1053/mudcat.htm#songbook

and rejoice with me in nr 100 of the thread.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 06:22 AM

Thanks Becky,

Susanne knows more than I do about German folk, so I can't add anything to her comments.

Wolfgang