BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!

Subject: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 05:50 PM

I've got the TV on though I can't see it. So when the local news mentioned a mugging in Sheffield I was curious, and moved round to stand in front of the TV
It didn't register at first, too close I suppose, the face was familiar yet damaged with cuts and bruises. Then he described how he was attacked and I realised it was John. The nice old man from the pub who always said hello and made new people feel welcome, I think he said he is nearly eighty years old. For months after I started going to the same pub he walked me to the bus stop at closing time and I often thought it should be the other way round, that I should see him home the half mile or so he walked to his flat.
I think on the news he said he was attacked in the morning though, broad daylight

So right now I am really very angry with the world and had to share it with someone

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM

I hear ya Roger!

Let's you and me kick the crap out of 'em all eh!!!

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:31 PM

Sorry, Roger. Was it done as part of a robbery or just for the hell of it? We just had another gay man beaten to death in my neighborhood just because he walked out of a gay bar. No way to make sense of it.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:32 PM

I also can barely comprehend how humans can do such a thing to other humans..especially ones who can't defend themselves as well.

If there ever was an argument for serious control over who is allowed to breed so that the number of animals like that are limited....(no...I don't know how to administer the program fairly..I just wish)

I DO know that if they are caught, the punishment should fit the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:39 PM

Not much more to say than what CH, Sins, and Bill already said and I agree with them all.......First we beat the crap outta' the guy who did it and then we castrate him so he can't breed.........

Seriously Roger, I'm very sorry and I hope John recovers fully both mentally and physically.......I know you'll be there for him.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:44 PM

i can imagine how big the shitheels must have felt after they beat up an old man...such courage....

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:49 PM

Oh yea, on a par with the guy here who beat a dog, tied him up (legs, calf roping style) set him on fire, and then cut his legs off.......bastard was convicted of FELONY abuse, serve 5 yrs!!

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:50 PM

No idea how Roger but the sad fact of life is that they can. At the moment, I'm mostly thinking anger and I hope they get the bastards but that stops me thinking about your friend who has to be more important. I hope he gets good support and has no long lasting scars (of either type).

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:52 PM

Poor guy. An elderly couple here in MN just went through a similar beating the other day, also in the middle of the afternoon. They were beaten after letting two young men use their phone... Wife's in critical condition, husband's a little better off. Looks like they're going to catch the guys here. Hope they get yours, too, Roger. (After this growing Mudcat posse gets to them, of course)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Morticia
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:53 PM

I'm sorry this happened to your friend, Roger.This is becoming a bigger and bigger problem in Britain.....and elsewhere perhaps? I too wonder how they can do it and how they must feel afterwards....but right now, in my pink,fluffy, lefty, social-workery way, I'd like to peel the skin off 'em slowly and without anaesthetic.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: AliUK
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:55 PM

my father was recently attacked here. He was out for a walk in the afternoon when two guys came up to him and demanded money. He told them that he didn't have any so they beat him up as "punishment". Nice world, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:05 PM

There ain't no rhyme or reason
Nor judging by the season
Why one can be so cruel
To one who's been so kind.

I am sorry to hear of your friend, Roger and Ali, you father, and for the gay man, Sins mentioned, and the elderly couple. Makes my heart so sad/angry/resigned/restless.

May they all find peace.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:30 PM

I'm really sorry to hear that, Roger.

When I was yet a mere slip of a lad my father, trying to console me over the way another adult had treated me, said, “The world is full of sonofabitches. They've always been sonofabitches and they'll always be sonofabitches and, wherever they go, they leave sonofabitch tracks.”

I think there was a line from the film “A River Runs Through It” something on the order of, “The world is full of sonofabitches and there's more of 'em the farther you get from Missoula.”

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: MAV
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM

Dear Roger,

I too am sorry to hear of your friend's awful encounter, but I am glad he is alive.

We had an incident in Portland Maine where a man in his eighties was kicked to death by a punk. This happened at a supermarket in front of a group of a group of shoppers who simply watched him do it.

We should ask ourselves, what would each of us do should we personally witness such an evil and unhuman occurrence?

I know what I would do.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Mudlark
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:47 PM

So sorry to hear about this, Roger. There is a dark component in the human animal, I don't understand it but I know it exists. I hope your friend John recovers, and with enough loving and reassuring care to minimize the emotional aftereffects of such a traumatizing experience.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Troll
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM

The truly sad thing is, that if the person/s who did this are caught, very little will happen to them because "they too are societal victims. No education, no jobs no future; naturally they strike back at societies inequities." to paraphrase the apologists.
The blather goes on and creeps like to ones who attacked your friend are excused from the responsibility for their actions. I would suggest public flogging and then the pillory but it might damage their fragile self-esteem to be held to
public accountability for their deds.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 11:01 PM

God help the son of a bitch who tries it on this old goat.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 11:38 PM

I'm with you, kendall. My constant prayer is that my canny experience will out manuver their youth and enthusiasm, should such an event ever occur.

It sometimes helps to remember that even when they travel in small stupidf gangs, or pairs, the kind of psychosis that can do this sort of thing is a symptom of individual terror and overwhelm, and is never aimed at the right target.

A

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

tROLL, THE CONSTITUTION EXPRESSLY FORBIDS such punishment. Why are these sick bastards not in prison? because if you are insane, you are not guilty. It all hinges on intent, and if you are a nut, you are innocent.

Have they ever tried to build or expand a prison in your neighborhood? Know what N.I.M.B.Y. means?

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

There's a sub-strata of the Human Race which views the world and everyone in it as objects to be used or abused as they see fit, whose frail sense of self-identity requires constant stimulation through little injections of power. Makes the concept of Hell quite appealing.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Troll
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 01:46 AM

Yeah, Kendall. I know. The rule of law must be preserved.
But sometimes...

troll

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Fiolar
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 05:01 AM

The scum of the world have no respect for the old. Trust your friend John makes a full recovery. An old lady in my town recently had her arm broken by a handbag snatcher. Sadly it's not only the old. What about that scum bag in Scotland who murdered his two baby boys? the trash in Norfolk who beat their six year old to death? the "police officer" who bludgeoned his family to death with a hammer? At least he had the decency to hang himself and saved the State the expense of a trial.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: gnu
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 05:34 AM

A tear and a prayer for your friend. An eye and a tooth for the scum.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Banjer
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 07:35 AM

'THE CONSTITUTION EXPRESSLY FORBIDS such punishment'...he same constitution that protects the rights of the individual, huh? Our judicial system has really fallen on its face in the last few decades...Maybe going back to public floggings and pillory WOULD do more to deter bastards like that. They know that the legal system will protect their sorry asses.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 07:38 AM

The local paper just arrived, its front page news. John was asked for money by two youths, said he had none, and was beaten up. He is now hoping his eyesight will recover, and he isn't giving, in he says he will still go out

I think I am right in saying he is originally from Sligo, the paper says he has lived here for sixty years has five children and seven grandchildren
According to the paper he said of his attackers 'I think they are horrible people'
I am sure all his friends at the Dog and Partridge will do everything to help and I would imagine feelings there are running pretty high too, its only a short walk from where he was attacked

Sorry to burden you all with my anger but its the first time I have ever known anyone who was the victim of mindless violence and its really shaken me up.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Cappuccino
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 08:41 AM

I know just how you feel, Roger - it leaves you shaking, doesn't it?

I can't work out whether our natural reaction to give them a kick in the teeth is reasonable, and whether the alternative view 'that makes us just as bad as them' is a load of liberal ********. I have to confess, even as an apprentice Christian, that my initial reaction involves the use of a baseball bat.

When the old guy gets back to the pub, he'll be glad to find friends like you there. And if he has a problem with his sight, I guess guys like you will make a point of taking him there.

All the best,

- Ian B, Oxford

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM

"If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards." Samuel Johnson (1709-1784) The above quote was attributed to Johnson on the 3rd of April 1776. Again, proof that we progress in time and technology, but not wisdom. When it comes to wooly headed liberal ideas of justice, we are actually destroying society not improving it. Yours, Aye. Dave (who speaks softly and carries a big stick) Like my hero Theodore Roosevelt...

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: kendall
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM

There is nothing "wooley headed" about the freekin' constitution! If you dont like what it says, get your weak kneed politicians to change it! The rule of law is far more important in the long run than any victim. Otherwise, we would be living in a Banana republic where people are severly punished, the innocent as well as the guilty. I'm a little surprised at this reptilian brain, knee jerk reaction among such astute people as we have here. My sense of outrage is as strong as any of you conservatives, but, damn it all, look at the big picture! Flogging and pillories indeed! I say, throw the bastards into prison, and, in the worst cases throw the key away.

Cruel and unusual punishment is expressly forbidden by the constitution, so, how can you blame the present situation on Liberals? Judges cant impose the kind of punishment you mentioned, because their rulings would be overturned in any appeal. Get real and quit blaming liberals for all of our ills. It shows a limited knowledge of the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

You Americans and your Constitution... Hehehe...

Wooley headed....

HA!

And well, if only by your example, it's been shown that prisons DON'T work...

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 02:40 PM

Kendall, I consider my self a rather liberal democrat, but I think pilloring drug dealers and convicted thugs in the public square and subjecting them to ridicule would go much farther to discourage their activities than incarceration. It's the least that should be done for John's attackers.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 02:51 PM

Kendall,in England it is illegal to fight back. If you try to defend yourself (or the elderly) you are in more trouble than the bloody criminals... I say defend your Constitution, and change nothing in it mate. There is a quote but I cannot remember who said it. "All it takes for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing" Anyway rest assured no-one attacks me or my friends and family with impunity *BFG*. That includes punks who attack old people, and unescorted ladies in my presence. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Banjer
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

Whether Liberal, Conservative, or somewhere in the middle all that has been proved is that the Constitution as it is written DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE!! It gives protection to those who would do wrong to others but gives nothing to the victim. Maybe the Banana Republic approach is a whole lot better than all these damn highpriced and overpaid legal types that pride themselves on finding loopholes so that the SCUM they work for can walk free!! The whole problem is that money, not good sense or conscience rule our courts. I have little if any use for it!

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: kendall
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 07:12 PM

Lonesome, you could be right, but, the fact still remains, that the constitution forbids that sort of thing. Now, if you could get 2/3 of those self serving low lifes to agree, any part of it can be amended.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: AliUK
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 07:20 PM

MAV: the eighty year old guy in Maine, my father ( a bunch of people at a bus stop were watching as these animals beat him up) and sundry other cases. Seems that what happened to Kitty Genovese never taught anybody anything. I was recently in London and was walking near the british museum with two of my students. This old bloke was lying on the floor going blue in the face, he was obviously a street person, but he was also obviously having a fit, people were walking by on the other side of the road just to avoid him. "Can yer call an ambulance mate?"he croaked and so I did on my cell phone. As I was waiting for the paramedics with him, several people came up to me and said what a great thing I had done. Some of these people I had seen walk by this old chap. I didn't feel the hero, and I certainly didn't do anything more than should've been done. But I couldn't help but feel a little disgusted at the attitude of my fellow human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: richardw
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 08:02 PM

The temptation to resort to vigilantism is always there./ I am not pro or con. I have a friend who is now 60. His hair is white and he is not quite as firm as he used to be. He looks, to most young folks, old. He isn't.

he travels extensively and on a couple of occassions he has been the target of attempted muggings. Note I say attempted. On the last occassion a young guy came up and demanded his wallet. My friend said, "Are you sure you want to do this? I was a prison guard, served two tours in Viet Nam in Special Forces, I was a paratrooper, an officer, and I've killed men with my bare hands." "Just gimme your f*****ing wallet man," was the response. Seconds later, as he stood with his foot on the neck of said individual who wasn't sure which body part hurt the most, he looked down and said, "Let this be a lesson. Don't f*** with old men."

Wouldn't many of us like to be able to do that

Violence may not be the answer but I wish that 80 year old had been able to do the same.

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Banjer
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 08:07 PM

Violence is not the answer, but it is a hell of a good deterent until some high falutin' legal eagles figure out somethin' else! Don't think of it as violence, think of it as giving back what you got and excercising your right to defend yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: MMario
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

Kendall - why is/would be the pillory "cruel and unusual"? - humiliating, yes. particularly cruel? not necessarily.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 10:57 PM

MMario is right. "Cruel and unusual" is about as subjective description as you could come up with. Solitary confinement certainly seems more cruel than the pillory, yet it is carried out daily in our prison system.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Banjer
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 04:18 AM

Yea, like LEJ says, and if you did it often enough it wouldn't be unusual anymore, now would it?

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 05:49 AM

Bravely spoken Kendall, but prison isn't a solution either - it just turns out confirmed criminals. The hangers and floggers in this thread would say kill them instead, but they need to remember that within the living memory of some people, the greatest democracy in the world gave the hangers and floggers free reign to practice what they preached. It gave us songs like "Strange Fruit" about which there is this thread. Read it.

Not a fashionable answer, but look around the world and the fairest societies, be they in the developed or undeveloped worlds, have the fewest problems. It's so obvious and predictable that those who advocate, create and support unfair societies (in which one hard-working guy earns say 40 or 50 times as much as another hard-working guy) deserve some of the blame for the consequences. Go this route and you have to put the bad folk in prison - more and more of them. America is way out in front in this, but still needs more prisons. It would be easier to build a fence around the rich folks.

I'm not claiming the guy in Sheffield was mugged to put food in kids' mouths - just that if you run a society from which many feel excluded, you're going to gt trouble. For 20 years since 1980, the gap between rich and poor in Britain has widened faster than in any developed country except New Zealand. And just before the May elections, Tony Blair, who leads a so-called Labour government, went on BBCTV's Newsnight and repeatedly refused to apologise for that continuing trend.

AliUK's post was instructive, but it says more about herd behaviour than individual indifference. For some reason folk do behave stupidly in groups. I saw some experiments recently that testing this phenomenon. One showed smoke leaking into a doctor's waiting room. No-one was brave enough to be the first to notice, so they all sat dumb till it would have been too late to escape a genuine emergency.

About five years ago I went to the aid of an old guy collapsed outside Camden Town tube station on market day. Crowds were squeezing round him - almost over him. I knew that because I was struggling to hold on to my four-year-old daughter too, people would immediately assist if I got involved. Without my daughter, I might not have had the nerve to make that first move. What AliUK did does take nerve. It shouldn't, but it does.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: kendall
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 08:47 AM

tHE sUPREME cOURT decides what is and is not cruel and unusual punishment. They dont spend ALL their time selecting presidents!

Some years ago, two punks confronted an old man on the street in NYC. They demanded money, he proceeded to kick the shit out of them. This man was in his 80's, but, was quite capable of defending himself. His name? Battling Nelson, former lightweight champion of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Banjer
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 08:56 AM

It would be easier to build a fence around the rich folks.

If one was to examine how some of them got rich they would probably be in prison too!

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

Roger-This is very sad, my thoughts are with you and your friend, please send him all our good thoughts and wishes for a speedy recovery.john

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: MAV
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

God help the son of a bitch who tries it on this old goat.

LOL!!

Lock and load Sir!

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: MAV
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 10:35 AM

Violence is not the answer

Of course it is. As proof, just go mess with practically any wild animal. Even a chipmunk will BITE you.

but it is a hell of a good deterent

Actually it's a completely natural deterent which worked just fine until elitists interfered with it.

until some high falutin' legal eagles figure out somethin' else!

Don't hold your breath, that's what got us to this point in the first place.

Don't think of it as violence, think of it as giving back what you got and excercising your right to defend yourself.

Correct, correct and correct!

(See second amendment)

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 11:00 AM

My thoughts exactly MAV Regards. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Biskit
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 01:25 PM

ditto mav!! I'm really sorry to hear about your friend John, Roger I hope he is better soon. PEACE! (through superior fire power) ~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: kendall
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

While I hate to agree with MAV or Uncle Jaque on political issues, I must admit that I believe it is my God given right to defend myself, and, even though the second amendment is often misinterpreted, in this day and age, I'm glad it is there.

Personally, I hate violence...I'd like to cream the son of a bitch that starts a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Banjer
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

Kendall, it seems we are all on the same track here. We all believe in live-let-live ideal. None of us would go out of our way to hurt another, but most would fight back to the best of our ability if set upon, and hope to be able to best our opponents. That has nothing to do with modern laws but more with ancient rites, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Deni
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

Hi Roger Love and get well to John and here's hoping that the bullies get theirs at the hands of someone much bigger and scarier.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: MAV
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM

Hey Kendall,

I believe it is my God given right to defend myself, and, even though the second amendment is often misinterpreted

Looks like YOU got it right mister.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: MAV
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM

Hey Kendall,

I believe it is my God given right to defend myself, and, even though the second amendment is often misinterpreted

Looks like YOU got it right mister.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: GUEST,Edward
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 12:34 PM

To answer the original question - people can be such bastards because they dehumanize other people. For whatever reason, they don't see an individual, or a class of person, or sometimes anyone outside their own immediate gang, as a human being like themselves.

This may be because they're evil, or emotionally damaged, or lacking the connections in the brain required for empathy, or raised badly, or just immature; but people who see and rightly condemn their actions are not in a position to judge the reason for it. Dehumanizing them in turn by epithets like 'scum' and 'son of a bitch' only reinforces the them and us mentality and ultimatly leads to situations like those we see in Belfast today.

I'm not talking from any moral high ground here. I've been socked in the face twice by strangers in the street and half-strangled by a highly-strung friend. But I did something myself long ago when I was young and had less control over my temper: somebody deliberately and just for fun destroyed something he knew mattered to me and since he was only about 10, but for luck (I hit his head on grass not concrete)I might even be the ultimate pariah, a child-killer and people would be calling me 'scum' and 'son of a bitch'.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that yelling at people and reacting violently doesn't help.

Subject: RE: BS: how can people be such b*****s !!!
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM

I too am sorry about your friend - I am glad that he is alive and filled with the spirit of healing. It is incidents like this that reinforce my willingness to carry a concealed weapon (very legal) with the prayer that I never need to use it.

And Morticia is a Social Worker? How interesting - so am I. Did we not have a thread about social workers here a while back?