AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR

Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:07 PM

New pictures but the same tragic end........

PREVIOUS THREAD IS HERE

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:11 PM

The BBC has just broadcast uncomfirmed reports that Afghanistan is being bombed.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:16 PM

In the US, the The Learning Channel ("TLC," on cable) is broadcasting BBC news. It is very odd and somehow helpful to see our news being reported from a view outside the US...

~S~

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:16 PM

It is also broadcast on CNN as well. Kabul has explosions.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:21 PM

My first thought is "You trigger happy fuckwits!" My second thought is "TRIGGER HAPPY FUCKWITS!!!!!!!!!!!!" My sympathies suddenly veer towards the terorists and I hope next time they get it right and wipe out your fucking president and his stupid shits for advisors.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:22 PM

Do we KNOW who is doing the bombing?????? For sure?????

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:25 PM

the Pentagon has official stated that the bombing is NOT American retaliation...

It's most likely part of their Internal war

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:25 PM

However I know that that is mere venting and I don't really hope it. I still think mostly of all the people in NY suffering at this moment.

Do we know who is firing at Kabul? Not for sure but then again we don't know for sure yet who coordinated the attack on America. Surely it would make sense to be very very sure before taking strong action. It would also make a lot of sense to go carefully instead of firing off quickly without a lot of thought. What would attacking Afghanistan accomplish anyway?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:27 PM

Been watching the videophoning of a bombing or missile attack on an armaments-munitions site in Kabul. Sorcha, an airliner loaded with fuel is much worse than bombs. Burning fuel will pour down shafts and gut the heart of a structure. Heat buildup in lower floors will cause secondary explosions. The two planes were just a short distance out from Logan airport so the fuel load is tremendous. A horrible scenario.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:28 PM

The Taliban just recently killed (or seriously wounded, depending on who you believe) by suicide bomb a major Rebel figure. This could be retaliaton from his followers.

jeffp

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:29 PM

I just actually got through to InOBU's number....it was a real busy signal, not a circuits busy, so there is hope.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: SDShad
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM

BBC America on those digital cable and satellite systems that carry it, has been broadcasting a live BBC news feed, or at least was when I was home for lunch. Didn't know about TLC.

How strange, that this is about the only thing people are talking about today, but from this distance, at least, it still doesn't seem real (or more accurately, seems wholly surreal)--all that seemingly-permanent infrastructure, all those people, just gone. But our friends in New York and DC don't have the luxury of cognitive dissonance, and have all my fervent hopes and prayers.

This is the other shoe I've been dreadfully waiting to drop since the great outbreaks of terrorism in the 70s. What a horrible thing to see that finally happen.

Words fail me.

Chris

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:31 PM

Sorcha-we don't know who is bombing, or if it is bombing, they are unconfirmed reports, as Eric said CNN is live from Kabul.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:33 PM

We don't know who bombed the World Trade Center. We don't know who is bombing Kabul. Breathe deeply, everyone. So many here are still waiting to hear from family and it doesn't look good. Whatever - we will be fine. Anything less is unacceptable.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:35 PM

Heard about it eight hours ago - went to a friend's house to watch the news on TV - saw about five replays of the video of the actual attacks - planes disappearing in the buildings - fire and smoke pouring out - and it still seems totally unreal! How can this happen in a civilized country?
My thoughts are with the thousands of victims, with their relatives and with all of you who are still without news from loved ones. Also, with the American government - may sense and reason prevail in the face of these mindless acts of terrorism! Seed, katlaughing and others have put it better than I could.
One constructive thought, though: Dan Milner was in Germany last weekend, for a shanty festival. I'd planned to go and see him but didn't, after all. But for all I know he may still be stuck in Europe due to the suspension of all flights to the US.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:35 PM

Just heard that Bush denies that the Americans are responsible for the explosions in Kabul. Breathing deeply Sinsull, I'm breathing deeply.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:35 PM

Well....like Seed, my birthday will always be shadowed by this horrific event....How many more birthdays I will have to be shadowed remains to be seen...This morning the tears would not stop....I kept imagining the thoughts of the folks on the plane and what they might have been thinking when they realised they were going to die....the thoughts of the office workers as they saw a plane coming straight for them....the thoughts of those trying to escape as a building collapsed onto their heads....I cannot get this out of my head....

All day my anxiety level was rising...and then I left for work....I stopped by the bank to get some money....after I got my cash...I woke up when a store clerk was asking me if I needed help with anything....I found myself in the aisles of the Fred Meyer's store....

I called work and went home...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:39 PM

It's 23.40 in England, and the one-line heading on tomorrow's Daily Mail newspaper simply reads: Apocalypse.

- Ian B

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:40 PM

NBC news just said US gov. sais they did NOT bomb Afganistan. I hope this is true. All the best Larry

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:45 PM

I just wanted to add my thoughts and prayers to those already posted. Like everyone else I can only offer my heartfelt sympathy to all of you across the pond.

Cllr

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM

Would you believe this, from a news feed just in?

3:05 p.m. Sep. 11, 2001 PDT In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks in New York City, people on Internet auction sites are apparently bidding up the prices of World Trade Center memorabilia, attempting, they say, to find some items with which to remember the buildings now completely destroyed.

Some less savory practices appear to be going on as well, with people attempting to sell disaster-related domain names and debris scavenged from the attack -- but eBay, the largest auction site, seems to be vigilantly combating these practices, taking down the pages as fast as they go up.

On a more noble note, the owner of the domain name worldtradecenter.com has taken down the site, leaving a note to say that the URL will be "donated as memorial or for some other suitable purpose." The webmaster did not respond to inquiries regarding his actions. *

Blimey. - Ian B

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:51 PM

Nice to hear from you InOBU. How are you and your wife doing?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:53 PM

I was giving a lift this morning to a friend of ours who's a refugee from Afghanistan, with a couple of other members of her family she's taken responsibility for looking after. Not fundamentalists, just good practicing Muslims, who pray and fast and do what they can to help other people, and are grateful for the help they have been given.

None of them know if any of their family back in Afghanistan are alive or dead, still at home or in a camp somewhere.

The Taliban is the reason why they had to escape into exile, and it's been a hard exile for them. The English papers are full of racist crap about refugees which seems aimed at stirring up hate and suspicion against people like them. They've come up against some of it, especially the child who has to go to school.

And now Kabul is getting bombed it seems, and all kinds of fresh horrors can be expected.

I posted this just in case anyone out there starts thinking "serve those raghead in Kabul right." (And thank God/Allah/Yahweh that no one has so far that I've seen.)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:01 PM

There is no way that our government could or would react that swiftly.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:01 PM

Glad to hear you're safe, Larry.

Rich

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,skarpi Iceland from home.
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:01 PM

Hello all, I don´t know what I can say I am In shock over these news I got and are watching at the tele. I have to tell you that In most church In Iceland we a Preyer time tonight at nine a clock two hour ago for all those people who lost their lives to day and for those who are In pain, and the American people, our thoughts are with you all , there are many candle on table right at this moment,I and my family will prey for you all. All best skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Biskit
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:03 PM

Sophocleese, Your smpathies suddenly veer towards the terrorists??!! You STUPID unfeeling BASTARD! maybe you should go hangout with those COWARDLY BASTARDS, be sure to disagree with them though, at least once, which will probably be enough for the fanatical bastards to blow you up. Effectivly removing you from the gene pool you heartless fuck! -Biskit-!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:03 PM

The "Northern Alliance", apparently a rebel group, has just taken responsibility for the Kabul attacks. (CNN)

jeffp

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM

Again - what can we say, sympathy, horror, fear ?? Though I just can not express myself coherently on this aweful subject.

On the technical point. The structure of the towers stood the impact as I suspect they were intended to do. But a major fire, fueled with AvKat or JP4, will burn well above the melting point of steel, and the structural destruction of concrete (Confirmed to me by a civil engineer tonight) Once the rebar and frames start to melt the intergral strength goes..

Once the intergral strength of the building is destroyed the weight of the structure above the fire point will collapse the building, and it will collapse upon it self.

As each floor compacts the forces acting upon the frame and structural points will have a different vector from the design stresses and, as we saw on the films, the tower will settle like a concertina.

I pray, oh I pray, that those who were capable of walking got out in time.

It is a tribute to the engineers and architects that the buildings collapsed vertically rather than horizontally.

The thought of both towers tumbling horizontally onto streets and other buildings does not bare thinking about.

Again, grief, shock, anger - what can you say.

Gareth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM

That's absolutely fucking disgusting about people on the auction sites using this as a way to make a buck! And we're supposed to be a civilized country!

Rich

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM

Again - what can we say, sympathy, horror, fear ?? Though I just can not express myself coherently on this aweful subject.

On the technical point. The structure of the towers stood the impact as I suspect they were intended to do. But a major fire, fueled with AvKat or JP4, will burn well above the melting point of steel, and the structural destruction of concrete (Confirmed to me by a civil engineer tonight) Once the rebar and frames start to melt the intergral strength goes..

Once the intergral strength of the building is destroyed the weight of the structure above the fire point will collapse the building, and it will collapse upon it self.

As each floor compacts the forces acting upon the frame and structural points will have a different vector from the design stresses and, as we saw on the films, the tower will settle like a concertina.

I pray, oh I pray, that those who were capable of walking got out in time.

It is a tribute to the engineers and architects that the buildings collapsed vertically rather than horizontally.

The thought of both towers tumbling horizontally onto streets and other buildings does not bare thinking about.

Again, grief, shock, anger - what can you say.

Gareth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: CamiSu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:13 PM

This took so long to write that a new thread appeared before it posted. So.

'Seed, Amergin, I understand. Today is my husband's (and Wavestar's fater's) 50th birthday. I had no time to plan anything and now I am grateful for that. A party now would just be all wrong.

Also my son was down there just this weekend and thought to go to the towers, as he'd not been in a while...

I just pray for all those involved and hope we do not react wrongly. All these innocents hurt and killed, let us not hurt and kill more innocents. If only this would cause us to forswear all war, but it won't.

I am numb, and I'm afraid. God in whatever name you call him, help us all.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: MAV
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:19 PM

S T R A T F O R

THE GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE COMPANY

http://www.stratfor.com

11 September 2001

Who is the DFLP?

1515 GMT, 010911

The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) has reportedly claimed responsibility for the attacks on the World Trade Center. This report, fromm a television station in Abu Dhabi, in unconfirmed.

The DFLP was formed in 1969 with an estimated membership of 500. It was originally based in Syria, but the location of its current headquarters are unknown. The DFLP receives financial and military aid from Syria and Libya. It operates in Syria, Lebanon, Israel and the occupied territories. Its leader is Naif Hawatmeh, according to Israeli-based Interdisciplinary Center.

The group was largely dormant from 1988 until this summer, when it claimed responsibility for an Aug. 25 attack against an Israeli military post in the Gaza Strip that left three Israeli soldiers dead. This attack was the first instance of Palestinians successfully using conventional military-style tactics.

Before this year, DFLP operations have always taken place either inside Israel or the West Bank and Gaza. Typical acts include minor bombings and grenade attacks, as well as operations to seize hostages and attempts to negotiate the return of Israeli- held Palestinian prisoners.

The group split from the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) years ago, but reconciled with the PFLP - and with Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat - in August 1999.

The attacks differ significantly from the DFLP's previous methods of operation. Likewise, the resources and infrastructure necessary for such attacks are far beyond the group's traditional means. Either the DFLP's claims are spurious, or it has joined forces with other groups.

mav out

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Daystar
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:20 PM

What can one saye words mean nothing We send our thought and prays to you all

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,guinnesschik
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM

sophocleese: your sympathies suddenly veer toward the terrorists!!!??? unbelievable that you'd condemn me for my patriotism and ignore the dead, injured, and their families here.

i'm speechless.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:25 PM

A few minutes ago ABC reported that a flight attendant on one of the doomed aircraft was able to give the seat number assigned to a person who appeared to be one of the hijackers. Could be the first loose end of the thread that could unravel the identity of the enemy.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:27 PM

MAV,

Apparently that claim has been established to be false, & a lie, I think...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,maire
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM

All afternoon I've been thinking of the words of Julian of Norwich: And if I should do wisely according to this teaching, I should not only be glad for nothing in special, but I should not be greatly distressed for no manner of thing : for ALL shall be well. For the fulness of joy is to behold God in all... I have to believe it.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: vindelis
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

My only concern, is that when all this is over, that the Americans GENUINELY 'get their man', - because I would hate an innocent man to go through what this person will endure.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:30 PM

It's easy to criticise those responsible for security.

Who, in their wildest dreams, could predict such a catastrophe?

After all, these planes were on internal flights, and probably didn't deviate from their normal flight paths until it was too late to react.

It has happened. We can't change that. Blaming anyone other than those sick people who actually carried out the attacks will achieve nothing.

Here in the UK we have had to put up with the actions of mindless terrorists for over thirty years - a small minority of senseless 'religious' fanatics with no regard whatsoever for human life.

I'm watching the news on TV in total disbelief - a Hollywood 'blockbuster' with this as its plot would be dismissed as 'too fantastic' to be believable.

Truth is certainly stranger than fiction...

My thoughts and prayers are with all those affected by this atrocity.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: MAV
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM

Paul,<

Apparently that claim has been established to be false, & a lie, I think...

The story seems to paint them as "wannabes" but I thought it had to be posted.

mav out

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM

About 11AM, one of the radio stations interviewed a man whose daughter worked in the Twin Towers. She had called him when the first plane struck to tell she was OK. Suddenly she screamed and the line went dead. How does a parent live with that? The whole thing reads like a bad Rambo movie.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Gloredhel
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:45 PM

Now I know what my grandparents meant when they said they remember where they were when they heard about Pearl Harbor. I was on a religious retreat this weekend, and when a guy barged into the kitchen while we were getting breakfast and told us what had happened (no television or radio at the retreat house), we all thought he was some local nutcase. But then we got in the cars to come home and all the radio news confirmed it....

Prayers for those affected, but also, in my Christian compassion, prayers for the mercy of God on those who perpetrated the attack. (There's some Bible verse that says praying for your enemies is like heaping burning coals on their heads, if you prefer that.)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:45 PM

One sigh of relief here...one friend is safe, grounded in the Azores tonight. Still haven't heard from The Pentagon...Am I selfish for thinking of those I know personally?

My son just called from Lexington, KY. They are sending casualties to the hospitals there.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: MAV
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:48 PM

From Salon,

Why did the buildings collapse? According to Gregory Fenves, a professor of Civil Engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, the planes weakened the buildings' structures at key points. Fenves, working on information gleaned from preliminary TV reports, stressed that he was speculating. He said that if the planes had hit the structures higher, they could have merely damaged their tops; if they had hit lower, they would have been up against the enormous weight and resistance of the base of the buildings.

The buildings were architecturally interesting in many ways. Each structure is based on a central steel core, which is surrounded by the outside wall, a 209-foot by 209-foot cube of 18-inch tubular steel columns, set 22 inches apart. The cores and "tube walls" share the enormous physical weight of the structures and protect them against the extraordinary wind forces of buildings that tall. There are trusses that support each floor, but no other columns between the cores and outside walls. Some floors contain nearly 40,000 square feet of open office space.

News reports said the planes were jetliners, a 757 and a 767. The 757 has a 124-foot wingspan, is 155 feet long and can weigh 100 tons. A 767 is bigger, with a 156-foot wingspan and 159-foot length and can weigh a maximum of 200 tons. (A 747 is more than 200 feet long and can weigh 400 tons.) The planes hit the buildings near the 70th or 80th floors. Their impact severely damaged the tube walls, which carried a large proportion of the buildings' weight. CNN footage of the second plane hitting a tower appeared to show that a large part of the jetliner went all the way through the building, suggesting that the interior core was also damaged.

Once a building like a World Trade Center tower loses some of its support, the building in effect goes to work, Fenves said. "The loads are trying to redistribute," he said. "The loads are figuring out how to get back down to the ground." At the same time, he noted, the fires are deforming the physical properties of the support steel.

"It's a very rugged system," he said. "It takes a long time for the collapse mechanism to develop. It's not like kicking the leg out from underneath a chair. The building is 200-foot square and there's a lot of structural system there."

But once the upper floors began to give way, terrible force was set in motion. Each floor of a building that big might weigh 6 million pounds, he said. Once impact is factored in as well, he said, the force becomes irresistible.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM

Youre right, Mav... it did, in my opinion too.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:54 PM

Ooops...THAT was in response tio your previous post to me, of course...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: MAV
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:00 PM

Either that, or the jet fuel fire got the steel structure red hot and it buckled and went down like a house of cards.

You can see the downward progression of each floor falling on the next floor. Boom, boom boom.

All those people on each level!

I wonder if the terrorists realized they would be so successful?

mav out

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Philibuster
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM

"Grampa, what were you doing when they bombed Pearl Harbor?"

"Dad, where were you when they shot Kennedy?"

"So son, what class were you in when the planes hit?"

Why does every generation have to have something like this? I though mine would end up as the lucky ones...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM

The American school here in Recife is closed...the churches are full with people praying for those killed and injured and images of Palestinians dancing and laughing in the streets are on the TV. I have no sympathy for those who harbour and support terrorists, the "Great Satan" has been injured, will he now breathe hellfire. To those of you in the UK, watch your backs because not all muslims are good muslims.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: simon-pierre
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

Larry, it's so nice to see you here, I was very scared. Give me some news. SP

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

A Fenves also heard the dog bark in the OJ Simpson trial, they're getting infamous...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:17 PM

The collapses and the hits by the airliners are now on dozens of different angles and no matter what angle, it still is surreal. It's a movie .... right?

I was also interested to see the that the jet that crashed in PA had made it to Cleveland and circled back over eastern Ohio and looking at the flight track, it seems he flew pretty much right overhead here........and this cornfield might have been the PA cornfield. When you live in the middle of nowhere you don't figure to get too involved in a terrorist attack........

I see that also here in nowhere Ohio that the fear factor has set in and the cities are selling gas for 3-4&5 bucks a gallon. So down at our little "Stop and Rob," in the middle of nowhere, 45 miles from the city......they are selling gas at 1.66 and have at least 50 cars lined up in BOTH directions............

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:18 PM

Sorry Ali, but I think your last statement was something that probably SHOULDNT have been said. Far too 'inflammatory' (for TODAY, at least) in my opinion....

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM

Does anybody have any theories as to what the 4th (PA) aircraft was supposed to destroy? Was it just a backup that wasn't needed, was it a hijack attempt where the US pilots up and grabbed the controls back? I'd like to believe in the latter heroic scenario but I can't think of a target along that line...?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:24 PM

Shouldn't have said? I dunno. I think I lost a friend today. I'm just hoping and praying that it isn't true, but she hasn't got in contact with her husband since she went to work this morning. Pray you don't have to go through that.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:25 PM

The best thing known about the 4th jet is that the Cockpit Voice Recorder, which will have the last 30 minutes of cockpit info/voices, is going to be able to be recovered from the crash....that should tell us something about much of this....maybe.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM

Mrrzy,

That is the current theory (at least as reported by the BBC News). & its been said that the Hi-jackers were only armed with KNIVES... which makes 'resistance' from the crew all the more credible.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:27 PM

They got the recorder? GOOD. That will help.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM

Well, you have my sympathy for that, Ali, sincerely so...BUT, I cant see why you should want to potentially 'inflame' feeling against Moslems here.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:37 PM

Mrzzy-According to Sky News, the 4th plane was heading for Camp David.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM

"Naturally, there will always be those who suppose their own happiness to be of such importance that others' pain is of no consequence. But this is short sighted...Whatever immediate advantage is gained at the expense of someone else is necessarily only temporary..Because our actions have an impact both on ourselves and others, when we lack discipline, eventually anxiety arises in our mind, and deep in our heart we come to feel a sense of disquiet.

"Conversely, whatever hardship it entails, disciplining our response to negative thoughts and emotions will cause us fewer problems in the long run than indulging in acts of selfishness....When we neglect other's well being and ignore the universal dimension of our actions, it is inevitable that we will come to see our interests as separate from theirs. We will overlook the fundamental oneness of the human family. In order to overcome our tendency to ignore others' needs and rights, we must continually remind ourselves of what is obvious: that basically we are all the same...I want to be happy and to avoid suffering, and so do they."

~Dalai Lama

(thanks, J, for sending me this)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:51 PM

The CVR from the 4th jet has not yet been recovered. What I meant was that they WILL be able to get that one because it was a "standard" crash into a field, whereas trying to locate the black boxes from the two at the WTC towers will be a tremendous challenge. They, like so many human beings, are buried in the 110 story rubble of the towers. The one from the Pentagon may turn up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM

It means nothing I know.
But I was working at the Proms (Royal Albert Hall London) today. And as a mark of respect, a minutes silence was observed.
Let peace prevail
Much Love Ralphie

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: khandu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM

And the world has gone crazy. I am bereft and also a little crazy. I must say this, that if someone who lived down the street struck MY home and destroyed the house and some of my family, I would act without mercy. I would act without any consideration or any thought of the consequences. I would destroy the bastards. Fuck whoever doesn't like it. I would DESTROY the bastards and stand over their graves to make sure they were dead.

USA, love it or hate it, IS my home! Let's find the bastards and utterly destroy them til even the memory of them is gone!!!

To hell with them all!

khandu!!!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,Hotspur
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:55 PM

I'm shaking...i'm not that far from NYC, upstaters have always seen the City as invincible...i can't believe it, and i've been hearing and seeing it all day. i can't even think of all the people i know who might have been in lower Manhattan. they're saying at least 200 firefighters and policemen have been killed, those who were responding to the scene of the first fire/ attack. 266 dead on the 4 planes. two aircraft carriers have been deployed to New York Sound.

the fourth plane that crashed in PA didn't reach its target. it managed to crash in an open field, not a population center. if there is anything good to say about this, it is that, and the fact that the WTC buildings stood for an hour, allowing evacuation of at least some people.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,Jan Christensen
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM

This is a message I sent out a few hours ago

Dear Family and Friends, Marilyn and I live on the 17th floor of a co-op in Brighton Beach, in south Brooklyn near the ocean. Our bedroom windows face north, and until early this morning we had a magnificent view of the New York skyline stretching from Staten Island in the west to Kennedy Airport in the east.

We were awakened this morning by a call from our dear friend Marion Walsworth up in Maine, who said "Get up and look out your window." She'd heard the news on the radio and called because she knew we were late sleepers due to my work hours.

From less than 10 miles away we could see smoke pouring from the Twin Towers as we watched the close-ups and the commentary on TV. We heard about the suicide crash on the Pentagon in Washington and the other plane crash near Pittsburgh, and the horrible enormity of the attack clawed its way in deeper.

Then the Towers collapsed, first one, and later the other. We were too far away to see it directly, but when we looked out the window it looked like a volcano had exploded. A huge grayish-tan cloud spread eastward, blotting out Manhattan, then Brooklyn Heights, moving its way southeast.

At that point I figured it was time to run downstairs and pick up some emergency supplies. By the time I got to the street there was a thickening haze in the air, and soot and ash were falling like tiny snow flurries. And the smell in the air was the smell of tragedy.

We live in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, and there was a flyer downstairs stating that our co-op complex had put itself on emergency alert as a precaution. There were many more police cars than normal patrolling the area. It's not very likely at all that we'd be the target of a car bomb, but right now it's a case of "better safe than sorry." For hours now, we've been hearing sirens several times a minute, and it's hard to tell if they're police or ambulances.

We've lost a part of our skyline -- but so much more than that, we've lost possibly thousands of innocent human lives. And ignorant fools here and there around the World mistakenly cheer and think this is a "victory."

Some sick, twisted, deranged people tried to rip the heart and soul out of this city, this country, today.

But they failed, as terrorists always will. We've been horribly maimed; but our heart, our soul, our sense of community, though battered, are still whole. This is something these "heroes," in their single-minded anger, have yet to grasp: that terrorism is a fruitless quest that solves nothing, that adds nothing except more pain to an already hurting World.

I'm hoping to wake up tomorrow and discover that this was just an evil dream. But before I go to sleep tonight I'm walking the few blocks over to Coney Island Hospital so I can donate a pint of blood. It's the one small thing I can do at this point. Love, Jan Christensen

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:04 PM

No violence please everybody. Not all Arabs are Moslem fanatic terrorists. Not all Americans are Christian. Let's rise above the barbarism, if we are to call ourselves civilized. And I write as the descendant of a prior victim of this folly.

And BULLY for those pilots if indeed they managed to thwart the take-em-with-us part! I for one will believe that until it's proven otherwise.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:07 PM

Biskit and guinnesschik, you may have noticed a few other postings after that first one that indicated a slight change of heart and mind. My anger was directed at those who possibly were inflaming by unwise and hasty retaliation a situation that was already awful. I was angry also at some of the immoral and irresponsible blaming behaviour of many in the media and the Mudcat. If the rockets in Kabul had been the result of American action then I would stand by my assessment of the response as fuckwitted. At the time I wrote it was unclear who had been firing in Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden has been conveniently blamed for many things others have done.

However I spoke in anger and I shouldn't have said it, my apolgies. My thoughts today have been primarily with the wounded, shocked and bereaved of the USA. The mess is going to takes years to clean up, and the stains will linger.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,alison
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:11 PM

I watched the 2 towers fall last night, in disbelief.......

my prayers and thought to those who are lost, their families and all of you......

so many people..........

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: RangerSteve
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:12 PM

Sophocleese says we're trigger happy fuckwits. 200 firefighters and 78 police officers dead for the crime of trying to get people out of the WTC. And we're THFW's. Innocent people merely traveling somewhere on passenger planes are dead for no reason, and we're THFW's. Kids at daycare centers at 9PM because their parents haven't picked them up and no one knows if the parents are even alive, and we're THFW's. There was an unusually large crowd at the local train station tonight, more that usual, probably people waiting for family members who work in NY, and may no be coming home. And we're THFW's. And now we find out that it's not us bombing Afghanistan. But no apology from S'cleese. And the people who masterminded this mess? They're not THFW's. No, they're dainty delicate innocent little angel babies who deserve all our sympathy. We should hug and kiss and cuddle them, and apologize for siding with Israel and promise to cater to those poor little snot-nosed pieces of excrement just like S'cleese is doing. I'm going out to Liberty State Park tomorrow because they'll still be ferrying over dead and injured people to NJ, since the NY hospitals are overwhelmed. I'm not complaining. It's my job and I never expected it to be completely pleasant. But Soph will be sitting in her nice cozy house probably saying to herself "its not me or anyone I know, so who cares?, oh and I must write a letter to Saddam Hussein telling him how cute he is".

Yeah, I'm pissed.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Biskit
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:23 PM

Ditto Ranger Steve,...Sophocleese seems to have a trigger happy mouth. ALWAYS engage Brain, BEFORE putting mouth in gear Soph.!!! -B-

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:24 PM

Your welcome.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: reynardyne
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM

The newspapers will be full of people saying 'The real tragedy is...' but most of them will be wrong. In fact, the real tragedy was decided long before this happened. It's that something like this, vile and obscene as it is, had to happen before people in the west realised just how desperate the Middle East situation actualy is. The American government in particular has exploited the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for political and economic gain; exporting weapons and siding with the Israelis because they think that will gain Jewish votes. Any sane Jewish person will be horrified at what's being done in the name of their religion, and so too will any sane Muslim. Western governments are to blame for this atrocity; why else would Palestinians be seen dancing and celebrating in the streets at the fiery deaths of innocent people? The American government, by their callous and greedy actions, brought this tragedy on the American people, the very people they claim to represent, the very people who pay their salaries.

It struck me that the live footage from New York eerily resembled that emanating daily from Gaza and the West Bank. So, when it happens in America it's an act of evil, even of war; in the Middle East it's just another day at the office. It's the hypocrisy sickens me.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM

Damn that should be "you're welcome," (always engage spell check).

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:29 PM

Why are we fighting among ourselves......???

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:30 PM

RS and Biskit, look again, and you'll see that sophocleese did, in fact, apologise. Relax.

Anyways, horrible stuff. Been watching the news all day, and just finished reading all the bombing-related threads. Apart from a few jackasses, they've been pretty 'positive,' if that makes sense. (By that, I mean supportive, informative, etc.) Ugh...

...glad to see it's not 'us' bombing Kabul.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:41 PM

We didn't understand the Japanese mindset in WWII and the Kamikaze seemed so insane to us. We don't understand the mindset of the Islamic Jihad and they seem insane to us.

That's not an answer or said to inflame anyone, it is simply a fact. When you are dealing with someone who believes that giving their lives against the enemy will gain them honored admission to their "heaven" and make them honored martyrs...........Well, what do you do? If we nuke the whole area and leave one standing, then he will go on and have millions of martyrs to worship.

Yeah, we're gonna' retaliate I'm sure. I hope it is surgical and that we can get a world backing in eliminating terrorism which is a war on innocents. Innocents do not matter to jihad as they understand us no more than we them. We have got to make it so hard for any country to harbor and hence condone the actions of these people that no place will be safe for them...not an easy task, but the one that deserves our best effort.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: RangerSteve
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:51 PM

OK, S'cleese did apologize. I take back that much of what I said in my recent rant. And I'll probably be over it tomorrow, and I hope to be able to say something nice to Soph in the next thread that she starts. Or is it "he?" Whichever it is, I hope to be on good terms with Soph someday. OK, Sorcha? We're not fighting anymore.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:58 PM

Good. Now let's see some sense from our government, who are quite capable of being THFWs as we all well know. And I'd back anyone's assessment of them as those of "we" HAD bombed Kabul, which at least "we" didn't. Small victories.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:02 PM

Actually RangerSteve I think we cross posted in both senses of the word. Anger is not what is needed and I really shouldn't have let mine out like that.

But it does indicate that understanding the terorists is not really all that difficult. Many patriots in many countries have expressed their willingness to die for their country. Add that to labelling and dehumanising someone as "the other" and it becomes very easy to introduce atrocities into your actions. This has happened all over the world at different times. Muslim groups in North America are scared, with reason, of the actions of people who will label them as "other" and will justify a personal atrocity on the basis of this other immense one.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:02 PM

I just talked to my friend, a retired Sky Marshall, and, he confirms what I said on the folk chat. Sky Marshalls could probably have prevented the hi jacking of those planes. The Sky Marshalls were dis banded in 1972, and even though there have been other hi jackings, they are still out of business. He also tells me that he will not fly on any airline except El Al, because they have working security system in place aboard their planes, and terrorists know it.

He also believes that the flimsy doors to the cockpits should be replaced with something the terrorists cant break down. Sure the airlines will bitch about replacement because it will cost money. Ok, what is the price of what happened today?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:04 PM

I suggest we all write to our reps to congress and demand that they bring back the Sky Marshalls. I intend to do just that.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: flattop
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:05 PM

Spaw, did you understand how the Japanese felt about being bombed? This neat surgical bombing, has it worked anywhere? Did people enjoy being surgically bombed?

Why wouldn't today's stupidity qualify as new and improved surgical bombing? After all, they didn't touch the James H. Bean School in Sidney Maine.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,X-Ed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:25 PM

The Japanese Americans persevered during WWII because they are a great people. They forgave us because the actions were logical. They even went on to kick Nazi ass at Anzio. Germans took injustice during WWI. Italians took some during WWII. Those of Arabic descent should be prepared for injustice during war. They will if they Love THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. How many tears are being shed for American lives. The Jews saw the value of "turn the other cheek." Arabs know "an eye for an eye." GIVE BLOOD! I gave today and the wait was not bad at all. Treatment was top notch. I was informed on a "normal" day the blood banks need 800 donors a day. 11 Sept. 2001 is far from normal. Please do what you can for our fellow Americans. I was so intrusive I went up to strangers and suggested they follow suit. I wish the responses were more positive. Time for payback. Maybe we should get additional blood donations from the nations that support terrorism.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: DougR
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:27 PM

Because, Sorcha, some of us appear to have our head up our you-know-what.

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM

Hey RangerSteve, are you a U.S.Army Ranger? Oh yah, I forgot to add; Thanks Bill Clinton for sittin on your ass gettin blowjobs as terrorists attacked us and we did nothing....Nothing! (Like DeNiro)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:34 PM

Flattop,

It sounds as though you would like to change the human heart so that revenge is no longer wired-in as a reaction to loss and attack on home, family, and person. That would be nice, wouldn't it? I mean, if we could truly and universally just turn the other cheek, at least until we ran out of them.

But it has nothappened, for one thing. and under current conditions it would be a foolish philosophy to be willing toi absorb unlimited attacks without retribution. And for a third, we ARe wired up to get angry, even to the point of destructive rage, in the face of attack, loss and pain.

I expect the way the Japanese felt about being bombed was pretty similar to the way the sailors of Pearl harbor or those who died marching through jungles and building railroads for the Japanese as prisoners of war, or being raped in their own hospitals and convents felt -- outraged, harmed, terrified, hurt, humiliated.

War sucks, and this is one of the reasons.

But at the moment, war is and those who will not see it plainly will find it invading their lives anyway, no matter what they call it.

So get real.

I only wish we could see the name of the enemy. It is hard to plan surgical strikes -- which the bombing of the Japanese was NOT, BTW -- when you don't have a goddamned target.

Cowardly rotten conniving slimy sonsabitches, whoever they were, whatever their nation. I spit.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:41 PM

Why are we fighting among ourselves......???

Because at the beginning of the nineties we thought, now that the cold war was over, we could become a kinder, gentler, people. We spent ten years kidding ourselves, and some of us want to continue doing so, while others have realized we were kidding ourselves all along.

We in North America and western Europe - the middle and upper classes, anyway, and anyone who's conversant enought with computers to be on the net is probably a member of those classes - have been top dogs in the world for as long as any of us have been alive. We have taken for granted a life style that most of the population of the world would consider incredible luxury.

We will be able to continue to have that elevated life style only by being nastier and more cruel than those who envy it and want to attack us for it. If you can't deal with that necessity, you should be prepared to live the life of the typical member of the world's population, and forget about decent food, water, clothing, shelter, or medical care, much less your instrument collection or your SUV or your 35-inch color TV and DVD player or...but I ramble on.

The New Age ended today, people.

Peter.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mickey191
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:41 PM

CBS has just reported2 men with a truckload of dynamite have been arrested at the George Washington Bridge. 265 Firefigters dead. What else is planned?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: DancingMom
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM

Virginia Blood Services was completely swamped today with people wanting to help by donating blood. They gave me an appointment card to come back next week, saying, "We went through this with Oklahoma City. We need blood today, but we know we'll need it tomorrow, next week, and the week after that."

Thinking about all those people and their loved ones today...I just feel sick. And really pissed.

The anxiety and stress we all feel is going to hang around for a long time. Please, take refuge here. Please don't fight. Sharon

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Troll
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:56 PM

Larry is ok and my friend Helen, who works next door to the Towers is safe. She was late for work this morning or she would have been right in the middle of it.
In the midst of anger and sorrow, I can take comfort that at least two friends are safe.
I pray that we all may keep cool until the perpetrators of this outrage have been identified.
Remember, revenge is a dish that is best served cold.

troll

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: flattop
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:00 PM

Not quite Amos. I know that you are grappling with these issues and looking for reasonable answers. Surgical bombing sounds like we only have to suffer through our neat little vasectomies and then life will be fabulous. I'm trying to imagine how surgical bombing would work with real people in real time.

It reminds me of one of S.I.Hayakawa's stories that I may have told on mudcat before. Hayakawa was traveling in a taxi in Chicago after a race riot. The driver told him that black had thrown rocks and almost hit his mother but that they had fixed them, they'd gathered a bunch of his friends and beaten up a bunch of blacks. S.I.Hayakawa asked him if they gotten the guy who threw the rock at his mother.

Unless you can get the one who threw the rock at your mother, surgical bombing doesn't seem to be a reasonable answer to me. It more likely to be a show that victimizes other innocent people. You've mentioned that already in one of your posts.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,Tinker
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:01 PM

I'm amongst the lucky ones. My husband was on the first train they stopped from crossing the river. He stood on the Hoboken side of the river with folks who had been lucky enough to ferry off after the the first crash listening to a small raidio held by a woman also stranded on the shore. Her child's small brightly colored fish shape radio poured out the horrendous comentary as they watched the towers collapse across the river. Please pray for all the children whose lives have been affected. My children went to bed tonite with two parents but knowing that come morning they will learn that not all their classmates share that blessing...Prayers and Blessings.. I too spent the day remembering Julian of Norwhich..."and all will be well.." I'm just not believing it much right now.

Tinker

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM

Geeziz flattop, let's totally miss the point.........As Amos said, "Get real." I'd try to explain, but what's the use? Things are going to get bad, I'm just asking that we try to keep it confined to the perps and to put the pressure on those who harbor them.

Make no mistake, it will get bad........How bad do you want it? I'd like to see some form of understanding of what we're dealing with before it happens and even that isn't likely. When we find out who we think did it, my guess is we'll blast the livin' crap out of them whether it stops them or not........and whether you or I like it or not. Take a reality check.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:07 PM

I'm getting sick of getting the treatment as a guest, using my real name, so here I am with a fake name, since the mudcat form won't let me use my real name.

We are fighting here because emotions are in turmoil. Can't be helped and most have apologized already. You only forget for a short while that this thing is not about you or your feelings.

Second: The turn the other cheek analogy is misplaced; it has no application. No one has done anything to you. (They have done it to the dead people, and to the children who's parents didn't pick them up after day care tonight. (Thanks to whomever pointed that one out, as if I wasn't bummed enough).) Look at it this way: If your son threw and broke his glass of milk against your daughter's face across the dining room table, you wouldn't tell your guests to turn the other cheek and ask them to get in touch with his feelings. You would take the appropriate steps to teach him that that is not an appropriate way to communicate, and then get in touch with his feelings on another day.

In this situation, the objective, prudent, rationale response to correct the inappropriate behavior is, undoubtedly, a severe measure. That doesn't make it vengeance, and it doesn't make it a failure to turn the other cheek.

(You can all even flame me directly on my e-mail now that I am a real member with a fake name.)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

Somebody on the radio said very clearly what I have been thinking. Awful as this has been Canadians need to be the sober neighbour. The impulse to revenge may be wired in, but part of being civilized is in recognizing the wiring but not letting it control you.

War this may be, war is not pleasant but no war is ever made better by people saying "This is war therefore we don't need to think." It is precisely because it is war that we need to use all our resources, mental and emotional, to end it not extend it. Surgical bombing of the innocent isn't an end. There is no Peace without Justice. If you can work for Milosevic to be brought to justice, not just blasted out of his city, you can work for the perpetrators of this action to be brought to justice. South Africa is doing better because it chose the route of Peace and Reconciliation, with all of its faults rather than revenge. We can learn from that. Its a hell of a shock that its happened on this continent and in the scale that it has but that doesn't mean that we can abandon intelligence and kindness to pursue a greater Hell.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Clifton53
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

My sister-in-law got home alright, and my neighbor also. I didn't speak with them, but I think they work closer to mid-town than the financial district downtown. Sorry to have sounded so grave before, keep in mind I'm a good 30 miles from the city, and to see with the naked eye the smoke from that distance was terrifying to us.

Has anyone heard from 'catter Annamill? Last I knew she worked in the city, don't know if she still was working there or not.

Clifton

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: khandu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:12 PM

To hell with surgical bombings! Find out who did it, who supported them, who harbors them, and destroy the bastards!

No gloves, take em off! This is WAR!

khandu (not quite myself tonight!)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:14 PM

She posted in one of the first threads of this topic Clifton and is okay but understandably upset.

Just another thought again referring to the Oklahoma Bombing. Should this action, by some unimaginable twist, actually have been perpetrated by an American would you advocate as enthusiastically the bombing of his/her hometown as you do when you think that it was committed by an outsider?

What are "surgical bombs", how far does a "severe reaction" extend?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

O' death which came from skies
Born in rage of anger
Striking at the heart
Innocents became your instruments.

Minds reel in disbelief
Hearts cry out with sorrow
Images replay
Reminders of 9-11's terror.

Tears and loss prevail
Perhaps tomorrow's light
Will wipe it away?
No, Death came from the skies, all too real.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:17 PM

Hmm. Things really seem to be getting hostile. Here, and in real life. I don't know about where you all live, but here in my small Minnesota town there are long lines of angry people at the gas stations, fistfights at those same gas stations, and people roaming the streets screaming at nothing. About a half hour ago, my father was threatened by baseball-wielding (and ski-mask wearing) teenagers who were pounding on his truck outside.

And here at Mudcat, there's people ranting like low-rent Mussolinis (I won't name names), and/or picking fights with their fellow Mudcatters...

You/we people (Not all of us, of course. You know who you are.) need to RELAX. Yes, today was awful. But you're helpless to change what happened. Any revenge on the terrorists or their 'host countries' will be empty, and will only inspire more terrorism. Things like this can and will happen again, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it. Life is horrible, and you, me, and the USA aren't such badasses. If you cannot control your emotions, either go get medicated or stop typing. It's getting annoying, and you're going to regret it tomorrow. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Clifton53
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:17 PM

Thanks Soph, I missed her post in all the hub-bub.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:18 PM

No soph, but I'd advocate taking the "out" on the members of the group responsible, whatever the nationality. I was simply trying to state that if it is the Islamic Jihad, we need to have a better understanding, that they believe in giving lives for the greater cause.

NEW THREAD #5

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Troll
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:25 PM

Those who are guilty must pay. Those who are innocent should not.
That said, anyone who harbors the animals who did this or who hinders our search for the guilty must be considered our enemy also. We should not necessarily bomb them but neither should we ever again have any dealings with them at any level.
He who is the friend of my enemy is my enemy also.
Period!

troll

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: blt
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM

CNN's website describes the apparent bombing in Kabul as being unrelated to anything the US might be doing but caused by a faction internally, something about blowing up a garbage dump. BBC's website has a broader view than most US press, it's worth looking at.

All this talk about revenge being "wired in," I don't think that's accurate. That takes the responsiblity for acting out of the actor's hands, as if there is no such thing as being able to choose thoughtfully, as if being out of control with rage is fine and dandy. Feeling vengeful and actually taking revenge are two separate things. It makes sense to be extremely emotional in the face of such horror, whether one is furious, feels helpless, betrayed, grief-stricken, numb, scared, or combinations of all those and more. The Salon website, from an interview with Anthony Lake, appears to have already decided we're (the US) at war. The question is simply who are we at war with? And, will anyone think it is relevant to fully answer or understand that question before responding militarily?

blt

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:30 PM

PART FIVE

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:44 PM

The group that carried out the attack must be identified and destroyed. That must only be a first step. The frustration of so many people, particularly in the Middle East, is responsible for the rise of despots, terrorists and primitive fundamentalists. There are over two million refuges who have been in limbo for 50 years. Only a few of the lucky ones have been able to emigrate and begin to establish new lives elsewhere in the world, a number of them live in my city and they are good citizens. Fear of domination, subjugation and occupation is rife in the countries of the Middle East and the will follow leaders who can show strength. It has reached a point where strong action is needed. It will take, I believe, occupation by UN forces (or unilateral occupation if necessary) to guarantee boundaries and promote stability. It will be bloody and take a long time but the inaction of the last 50-80 years has created the situation. If nothing is done, there will be more and more of these attacks. Our armed might can win wars, but there is no defence against small fanatic groups unless we become a country with severely restricted liberties.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Escamillo
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:59 PM

From this side of the world where 30,000 civilians were killed and disappeared under the sign of hate, we raise our prayers and claim for a "NEVER AGAIN" , once again. We are so deeply sad that we cannot find the words which could comfort anybody.

May we be illuminated to find a solution other than sending our sons (latins included) to kill and die in a foreign country.

Un abrazo - Andrés (from Buenos Aires, Argentina) Sorry for not posting more often. I'm carrying another, personal pain, but I'm ok. I keep all of you in my heart.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:43 AM

I'm sorry you're experiencing difficult times, Andres. I hope things improve for you soon.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:46 AM

The United States is now at war against Terrorism. Or it soon will be. Terrorism is not solely the enemy of the United States. It is the enemy of any freedom loving country in the world.

Countries that harbor and protect terrorists should pay dearly for their actions. I am not referring to Terrorists that target the U. S. only. We should join with other nations of the world that are threatened by these bullies, and annihilate them as we do the vermin that invades our gardens. This is a new kind of enemy. They are not necessarily a nation, they are cells operating in some instances, independent of governments. They must be eliminated or else they will hold the world in hostage.

So those of you who sympathize with their actions of today should be careful. Your country could be next.

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Escamillo
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:25 AM

"So those of you who sympathize with their actions of today should be careful. Your country could be next. "

Sorry, DougR, this phrase just below my message (which is one of the few coming from another country) intrigues me. If somehow it could be understood that I symphatize with the criminals, it must be a mistake in my poor English. We are absolutely devastated by this disaster. My hope of not having to send young men to the war is not a criticism, it is just a hope. I wish I've clarified the point.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:52 AM

Sophocleese, consider this. Those bastards hit us because we support Isreal, yes? Doesn't Canada support the USA? Is Ottawa next?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM

kendall, damned if I know. What I do know is that if I get killed in a blast of some kind or other I have no desire for my death to be revenged with the death of other innocents.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:08 AM

Part 5

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These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

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• World Trade Center-Unreal Disaster
• AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
• AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
• AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
• AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
• AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
• AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
• AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
• AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later
• AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
• AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
• American Attacks**Part Fifty - Got him!
• American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
• American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?

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