Lest we forget: USA aggression

Subject: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

What has happened is truly terrible.

However, the USA continues to think that it rules the world, and finds it acceptable to bomb 'rogue' nations, as and when it wishes.

Click here to see a small part of what the US airforce has recently been up to.

How many tears have you wept for those innocent families with no father, those innocent mothers with no sons?

Silly me, US bombing is always justified. I forgot that America is always right....

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM

I doubt any of our military ever hijacked planes full of civilians and then used them as bombs against other civilians. The planeload shot down over the Gulf is the closest I can think of, and that happened in an existing war zone where the risks were given. So I wouldn't compare our military actions with acts of terrorism, but with other military actions, like against the Bosnians (we locked our internal imagined enemy up, we didn't slaughter them wholesale). And I don't know if you meant to say this, but I agree that we abdicated our role as leader of the world when we stepped out of the various conflicts we should have been mediating, or enforcing mediation upon. That might not be the duty of the strong where you come from, but I was raised to believe that if you can, you have a responsibility to step in and reduce conflict. If we'd supported the Palistinians and been willing to admit how racist Israel is (sorry, folks), perhaps this might not have happened.

But then again, it probably would have. I don't think whichever leader masterminded this really did it on behalf of Palistine, or against Israel. Fanatics don't always need a reason.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

Lets ignore this "Guest" flamer and hope they go away. All they want is attention. Let's NOT give to them.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:02 PM

Your point being, Guest???

Other than just trying to anger people, of course.

I suppose we should be grateful that your sociopathic behaviour involves cowardly anonymous posting on here, rather than anything more damaging.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:15 PM

Lets ignore this "Guest" flamer and hope they go away. All they want is attention. Let's NOT give it to them.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

I am NOT a flamer

I am simply pointing out the fact that over many recent years, the USA has bombed targets which have killed and maimed thousands of innocent people.

Just because they don't get on CNN, doesn't mean that the suffering is any less.

The responses to this thread simply confirm my view that many Americans are totally unquestioning in the fact that they are 'right' all the time

The facts suggest otherwise.

Oh yes, but I'm a 'cowardly guest'

Easier option to hate me than think about the truth, I guess

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

On this one point I do surely agree: you are a cowardly guest!

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

This has already been pointed out on some of the other threads. Most who have posted have struggled with the implications of our own culpability. Perhaps, GUEST, if you have not read all of yesterday's threads, you might give them a look. The points are valid in some respects and the discussions have been well-mannered and thought-provoking, from Mudcatters all over the world.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,sarge
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:21 PM

I think that past U.S. military actions have been featured pretty regularly on CNN. There has been no conspiracy to hide some of those actions, even those that were clearly mistakes. On the other hand you should consider that:

1.The U.S. has never targeted civilians directly. However, if we refused to bomb an enemy because of the possibility of collateral damage, then you would probably be writing your messages in German or Japanese right now.

2.I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers in terms of "thousands" killed and maimed, unless you swallow Iraqui propogand hook, line, and sinker.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:24 PM

Well I'm not hiding behind the guest label, but whatever guests motives are, he/she does have a valid point. The west turns a blind eye to its own atrocities. The deaths of foreigners do not hurt us so grievously. We may not commit single atrocities on this scale (at least not recently), but we murder just as cruelly. Over one million children have died as a direct result of US and britain led sanctions against Iraq. Our unchecked globalisation and hammering of poor countries (by refusing to cancel the debt) has cause untold suffering. We prop up murderous regimes that suit our political ends.

Maybe the combination of all these and more is enough to be seen as an act of war against some peoples, and some extremists are retaliating.

This is in no way a justification of what has happened, but a plea not to answer evil with more evil, and a plea to look at our own culpability in the deaths of millions.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:13 PM

I'm not a super patriot, but lest we forget:

Who started the Red Cross? Clara Barton - - American. Who started Habitat for Humanity? Also an American. Who started Heifer Project International - - an American farmer. Who started the Peace Corps? John F. Kennedy. Who started Vista - - same as above. Which country offers up use of its overseas military bases when disaster strikes that country? You got it! Who is the main supporter of Doctors Without Borders? The AMA. Which country maintains the Project Hope surgical ship? Three guesses. Who chiefly bailed out and rebuilt Japan and Germany after we defeated them? Take a shot at that one.

No we're not always right. We make some huge mistakes. The School of the Americas being one. But as - - Individuals - - ( not the government ) we're some of the biggest hearted people on the planet. American individuals don't always follow what our government tells us to. That's one of the differences between ourselves and others who live in less tolerant situations. And sometimes our government IS right.

We'll still welcome folks of all ilks and stripes to our counrty.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

I suggest that anyone who doubts that the US would target civilians should go to the DIA website and search the recently declassified documents. Here you will find that the US military knew that targeting the Iraqi civilian infrastructure (this is expressly forbidden by the Geneva and Hague conventions, the Nuremberg Charter and the laws of armed conflict) would lead to widespread epidemics of cholera and other waterborne diseases. They also knew that children were especially vunerable. And yet the military REPEATEDLY targeted water purification, sewage treatment plants and irrigation systems. The sanctions have been so stringent that even water purification tablets and ambulances have been denied. This has led to the death of over a million people (over half of them children) who had nothing to do with the invasion of Kuwait. Or how 'bout this example. By June 1945,the Truman administration knew that the Japanese were looking for a face-saving way to surrender. In May 1945, Hirohito dismissed the militarists in the cabinet that had gotten Japan into the war. Intercepted messages between Tokyo and the Japanese ambassador to Moscow (of which Truman had full knowledge) read as follow: July 12: "It is His Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war ..." July 13: "I send Ando ... to communicate to the [Soviet] Ambassador that His Majesty desired to dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy carrying with him the personal letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war." July 21: "Special Envoy Konoye's mission will be in obedience to the Imperial will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to the war through the good offices of the Soviet government." This note also reveals that a conference between the Emperor's emissary and the Soviet Union was sought in preparation for contacting the US and Great Britain. There were plenty of other intercepts. Truman (who already knew) was approached at the Potsdam conference by Stalin with the offer. Truman brushed him off. The list of Truman's top commanders who opposed the use of the atomic bombs is impressive: General Douglas MacArthur, Truman's chief of staff, Admiral William Leahy, chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Ernest J. King, Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz, Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, Rear Admiral Lewis L. Strauss, commanding general of the US Army Air Forces Henry H. "Hap" Arnold, General Claire Chennault of the Flying Tigers. Army Stategic Air Forces Commander Carl Spatz and Army Air Force General Curtis LeMay. These men all challenged the military necessity argument. Among Truman's advisers, Secretary of State Stimson, Asst. Secretary of War John McCloy, former Ambassador to Japan Joseph Grew, Navy Undersecretary Ralph Bard, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, all took issue with the decision. When General Dwight D. Eisenhower was approached by Leslie Groves (Manhattan Project JCS liason) with information on the atomic bomb test, he replied that it wasn't necessary, that Japan was preparing to surrender. In 1963, Eisenhower told 'Newsweek' that "it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing". Hiroshima and Nagasaki had no military value. They were purely civilian targets, chosen because they were the only two cities that hadn't been razed by firebombings. Half a million innocent civilians were incinerated or died slow painful deaths from radiation poisoning. The idea that the US hasn't targeted civilians is an uninformed one. I could site a dozen more (going back to the near annihilation of Native Americans) with detailed backup information. With all that said, NOTHING can justify what was done yesterday. Targeting innocent people is criminal and MUST be punished. It must not be done as retaliation or revenge (This would only drag us into a cycle of violence where no one wins), but it must be done.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:32 PM

Nimitz was not a 5 star admiral. Only Leahy was. Why didn't you mention the fire bombing of Dresden?

War is war as in all is fair in... this is not war, it's the worst kind of cowardice.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:41 PM

Enough?

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:45 PM

the arrant stupidity of trying to paint ANY 'nation' with a broad brush of generalization astounds me!.."Americans" are not aggressors, and by & large, neither are most American leaders!...in this complex world, mistakes are made, decisions regretted ...and sometimes, individuals with bad judgement get into positions of power. This happens everywhere!

But there are Iraqis who are NOT in agreement with Saddam, Palestinians who would NEVER shoot Israelis, Israelis who would try to be just and generous with Palestinians, Irish on both side who hate the killing and do NOT participate, and Chinese who are crying for a more democratic, free society.

WHY IN HELL do idiots use incidents like this to point fingers and stir up highly debatable points when ALL minds and efforts should be directed towards solving problems and easing pain & suffering?

It seems that all too many people...on BOTH sides of the issue...would rather hate and criticize.

"Aggression" is a petty, ill-chosen word for whatever the US might have done...and even the correct words are best held until a RATIONAL debate can be held.

'guest' does not indicate which countries he/she thinks are above reproof and never err in the conduct of their affairs....or what might be done to make this sorry world a bit better!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:56 PM

Nothing (in my opinion) justifies what has hapenend these last two days. By all means if you have an argument with a nation take it to the battlefield if you must...but don't take it to the innocents.

This was bloody murder on a celestial scale and may God forgive the people who did it (or organised it) ......coz I can't.

Spot

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Roughyed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:18 PM

My daughter is in New York on holiday with her boyfriend from Manchester, England and was on her way to the World Trade Centre when she saw the plane hit. If she had been half an hour earlier or the plane had been half an hour later I could have lost the dearest person in my life. She is not responsible for America's foreign policy any more than Iraqi civilians are responsible for their government's.

I'm as political as the next guy, but surely this is a time for mourning all the innocent people killed, not scoring atrocity for atrocity.

I have watched those buildings collapse on TV again and again and in my mind seen my daughter under the rubble or jumping or burning to death. I just want it to stop. PLEASE

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM

There has been much wrong done on all sides in the past few decsdes. If, however, you mention this during a war you will be accused of being a "traitor"...maybe even imprisoned or executed...for simply stating what is true.

That's why truth is the first casualty of war.

One learns to be careful in such circumstances. When one must fear to state an unpleasant truth, can one really claim to be living in "freedom"?

- LH

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:20 PM

Guest I suggest you find other fields to plow.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:41 PM

When one must fear to state an unpleasant truth, can one really claim to be living in "freedom"? Try human nature for size, Little Hawk; it is not just a peculiarity of nations. Empathy and common sense stills your tongue. If it does not, there is a penalty in it for you.

An example: if a dear friend confides in you that her husband beats her, do you stand there and berate her for things she did in the past? No. I have no doubt that the first thing you do is try to help her deal with this particular problem.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:13 PM

I assume I'm one of the idiots Bill D refers to in his post. The intention of my post was certainly not to point fingers and stir up highly debatable points, or hate and critize, but as to a response to earlier postings denying US culpability in civilian deaths. I admit I have a tendency to go into detail, but this is sometimes necessary when debunking common mythologies. (Read 'Killing Hope', by William Blume for detailed information on dozens of US military interventions since WW2).

I agree with Bill that minds and efforts should be directed towards solving problems and easing pain and suffering. Part of this process includes understanding why these people would commit such an atrocity. These terrorist felt they had serious grievances, real or imagined, that justified their actions. Unless we can either come to terms with these grievances or convince these people that they are baseless, then we will surely see more events like yesterdays.

I'll restate. NOTHING justifies the WTC attacks, but if we are to understand and ultimately prevent anything like this from ever happening again, we'd better be ready to look long and hard at how the rest of the world (and especially the Arab world) sees us. If we don't, things could get a lot, and I mean a LOT worse.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: toadfrog
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:19 PM

"GUEST" IS AN OBVIOUS TROLL. DON'T FEED HIM.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:35 PM

AKRick is not a troll, seems to me. He makes a cogent point. Truth doesn't work when you divide it into thirds.

But each of these incidents has a context. If they are taken in context, the moral indignation will be less strident. It is grievous to do wrong, no matter what side you are on, which goes without saying.

Let me remind you that there is only one nation on this planet which was actually conceived in liberty, built as best as could be imagined to protect liberty and to balance liberty so that it was widespread.

There is only one nation on this planet that prays regularly to the Infinite that its good be "crowned with brotherhood". That publically commits itself to be the land of the free. These are not trifles or hypocritical gestures, no matter how short we fall of these aims.

I am not trying to retreat into jingoistic palliatives, here; I am trying to point out what it is that gives the United States its flavor and informs its decisions, for the most part.

As for the specious references to the Kuwaiti no-fly-zone, I think we made decent offers for the cessation of hostility with Iraq in the first place. We didn't ask for a lot. Just to stay in their borders and stop invading others. Somehow this was a terrible imposition and insult. But it was an imposition that would have been completely unnecessary if the recipient had not violated international treaties, codes, and the peace of nations in the first place.

A

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:37 PM

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: sophocleese
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM

Its a tricky thing. Victims need support. At this moment America is a victim and needs support. They need the support to heal. I willingly and freely give that support to those suffering in the USA and around the world because of the actions taken yesterday.

My kids fight and one of them gets hurt. I hug them and tend to hurt. I do NOT encourage the child to go out and kick the other one as payback and I do not stand by and let that happen. I will not support efforts on the part of the USA to use their newly acquired victim status to create more victims. Justice and healing I will work for but not revenge dressed up to mimic it. Any show piece retaliation would be as bad as yesterday's atrocity.

Yes America has blood on its hands from many places, they are not alone in this. It only needs to be pointed out again because of efforts by some to paint Americans as entirely peace loving and lily white. They aren't. The USA is very powerful country and it didn't get that way by accident or act of God. It got that way because people killed, injured and attacked many others that they saw as interfering with the interests of American power. American Power, not the freedom of normal Americans trying to live their lives out ina comfortable fashion. People trying to live their lives out in comfortable situations have had them cave in because of actions of the American Govt and some of its citizens to deprive their governments of power.

Yesterday's action was an attack on that power. It also killed thousands of innocent people. It has been universally condemned as a horrific action. I agree. I do not want to see another horrific act that kills innocent people. So I speak out against the white-washing of the American people that could lead to another atrocity while simultaneously offering support for their efforts to heal.

Peace

Sophocleese

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:52 PM

Sorry. I've got to reset my cookie on my home computer. Since I cancelled most of my AOL services I appear as a guest. "Guest" who started this thread in no way fits the definition of a troll despite his/her failure to post a phony name--as many of you do, including the one who called me a traitor scum yesterday. As several others have noted before, "Guest"'s statement is not without validity, and was certainly not a flame.

Traitor scum that I am, I agree that we should examine our own country's record for what motivates hatred for us in other countries and avoid responding to atrocity with atrocity.

--seed(Charles Kratz)

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:24 PM

Incidentally, here's where "lest we forget" comes from, Kipling's Recessional. Worth reading again.

(And, to avoid a common misunderstanding "lesser breeds" here meant other Euuropean imperial powers, primarily Germany)

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

Not, of course, that the British had a higher opinion of the inconvenient people of their colonies, any more than we have of ours.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:55 PM

As bad as our country is, surely we have the right to seek redress for this atrocity.
After all, it is an established point of law that a hooker can be raped. And rape, as well as being inconsiderate, is illegal.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM

who does NOT have blood on their hands? Lichtenstein? Andorra?

" The USA is very powerful country and it didn't get that way by accident ".....sorry, but that IS how it got that way!

If this land had been settled by China or Spain or Denmark or Hottentots... instead of by 'mostly' people from the UK, the very fact of it being large, temperate in climate and rich in resources would have made it a world power...and we can debate forever how other cultures would have used this area had THEY by accident of history been thrust into the world stage as stewards of such a place!....(yes, I know all about the Native Americans and how they were cheated & mistreated...would others have done better by them? Perhaps....)

The fact is, the USA is SO big, with SO many issues and so many cultures and ideas mixed into its history, and so much diversity in its various states, it's a wonder it functions at all...but MOST of us really do TRY

No one is trying to 'whitewash' anything right now, real OR perceived...we are just trying to comprehend how ***ANYONE** can process reality so grotesquely as to think we deserved THAT....innocent civilians destroyed en masse to make some arcane socio/political/religious point!!! How could ANYONE think they would win a point with those tactics? and how DARE anyone suggest that with the smoke and rubble of that cowardly, hate-filled attack still filling our TV screens, that we sit back and reflect on our sins?....there will be plenty of time for analysis and recriminations...right now we are busy...we have dead to bury...as soon as we can find them.........

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:32 AM

Guest

I committed no agression against a foreign nation. Perhaps the person I elected allowed it to happen in my name. But I dropped no bombs. And now murderous persons of an unknown power have taken me to task for crimes I am not guilty of. They came as cowards and forced the unknowing and innocent to become pawns in their bizarre game.

In the course of time our government has much to atone for. I suppose so do we as we claim our democracy grows from its people and we the people elect what we hope is our best and and brightest. And if they fall short of our high mark then it is up to us to change out the representative who do a poor job for those that do a right job.

But nobody in New York dropped a bomb in Iraq. No one on the planes supported directly any repressive governments for the sake of oil or rubber or sugar. Let the world seek redress for crimes in a world court. This was an act of cowardly murder. Lets not some of us make it cleaner for ourselves by saying "We had it coming." "We have been so highhanded and committed atrocities ourselves."

Horseshit!

Somebody came to our house and killed some of our family. And some of us people here in this forum think we should look at what atrocities we have done to the world and accept it as proper punishment.

If esitimates go as expected, this one mad act will kill as many people as died in the whole of the US involment in Viet Nam. This is the work of cowardly evil.

If you believe in the UN and the world court then take the United States to court and seek redress for our crimes. Thats the honest thing to do. But its cowards who strike from hiding and kill children and their parents and people who are working. And then set out again to kill the people who are offering mercy to the injured. If this is the work of a few people who profess to follow the Koran and serve Allah then they do not understand their own faith and they dirty the names of all who know the teachings of the Koran for the wise and beautiful belief it gives much of the world.

I can't finish this. I am so mad I can't carry a thought any further. If you feel you have to blame The United States for this go ahead, but blame yourselves first. Don't blame me, my family or the people on the planes or the people murdered in New York. They probably weren't willing to die for your idea of global retribution.

Don Meixner,

Thats my name out front, I'm not ashamed of it. Flame me if you want to and do it from hiding if you have to, but think of the company you are in as you do so.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:44 AM

Don, the grievance that the muslim fanatics have against us is our governments support of Israel. Thats all.
I agree with you in the main and, so no one will think that I'm hiding behind an alias,

Newbern Winfield Johnson.

"troll"

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:52 AM

Hello Newbern,

Its my great pleasure to meet you.

Don

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Gypsy
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:53 AM

Guest, you paint with a broad brush. What makes you think that i don't grieve, and weep for bombings elsewhere? Or for pain elsewhere. I cried as much for Kabul,as i did the east coast. I deplore pain, and viciousness everywhere. Get off my back!

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Skeptic
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:02 PM

Don,

Your statement: I committed no aggression against a foreign nation. Perhaps the person I elected allowed it to happen in my name

Brought to mind an arguement from another site: that there is some kind of "justification" for attacks against US civilians because of the acts taken in their name by elected officials.

Which led me to this line of thought:

If, the American voter I bears some of the burden of guilt for what my elected representatives allowed to happen in other countries. (in the way of atrocities) and thus the attack had some moral justification, then those who elected Saddam bear the same responsibility for his genocide against the Kurds, invasion of Kuwait and so on.

Therefore, if the attack against American civilians is justified because of their tacit compliancy in various alleged atrocities, the US response against Iraqi civilians is likewise justified.

How nice it would be if logic and sophistry could make the pain, the fear and the sense of lose go away.

BTW, John Dale Johnson, related by blood (and I think stuck with him by an ancient family curse) to Troll, who is my big brother.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

A pleasure to meet both of you Johnson boys, presumably the same ones about whom the traditional song was written:

"Step up pretty girls, don't be afraid! Step up pretty girls, don't be afraid.."

There -- music has been served.

Don, I am behind your feelings completely. No individual can "be" the United States in the way that these terrorists have tried to claim them to be.

There was a day-care center in the WTC, also.

The thing is, I believe that the rhetoric of Islam rabblerousers is not truthful. Their brief against us is that we dominate the world and have plenty, while their people struggle. Not all of them -- not those in the oil-rich nations allied with the West. The simple fact is that the United states does not name Islamism as an offense, but as an exercise of natural freedom. This is not consistent with the characterization of the United states as the Great Satan of the Universe.

Another thought. While could serve the people of Palestine, the people of Afghanistan, the people of Pakistan better, I do not believe we have levied atrocities or major offenses against them.

And if their issues are the well-being of their lives and economies, they have as much liberty to improve those things as we do, legally and economically.

I have scratched my head for two days trying to understand where our humongous crimes lie. And I am currently persuaded that we have been characterized as "Evil" by a psychotic mind-set. Under those cuircumstances I do not believe striving to communicate, striving to understand one's offenses, is the right path. The righht path is to disarm and dissolve the psychotic group which is putting one's life at risk.

Until the network under Ben Laden is dust, however it is acheived, we will not be able to put paid to this account, not because of blood-hunger but because of survival.

A

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM

Don, by golly, at long last you post a message I agree with (scare you?) Good post.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM

Nice to meet you John, how come you got the normal name?

:-)))))

Don

There can be no justification for cowardly murder, no matter who commits it or for what purposes.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Skeptic
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:43 PM

Don,

Becasue, of course, I'm the (relatively) normal one. But I'm working on that.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM

I would never presume to deny that the US that I love has never done its share of damage to the world. I would never presume to deny that some of that damage was misguided and Just Plain Wrong.

War is hell, boys. ---- William T. Sherman

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:02 PM

Our great crime is that we support Israel and so have great influence in the Middle East. The problem is, and always has been, who controls Jerusalem?
The city is holy to three of the worlds great religions. Jewish tradition says that the Mesiah will come and the Temple of Soloman will be restored. The Temple stood on Temple Mount, which is now the site of the Dome of the Rock and the El Aqsa Mosque; the place where Mohammed ascended to heaven.
If the Temple is re-built, the Mosque goes.
Do you begin to see the problem?
BTW, the version of Johnson Boys that I learned from my Granny went
Johnson boys, raised in the ashes
Never knowed how to court a maid.
Run away and hide their faces
Sight of a pretty girl makes them afraid.
repeat last line four times.
Not very flattering I'm afraid.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: MAV
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:41 PM

We've had our share of president who had no clue regarding proper use of the military. McNamara finally went public, crying and apologising for his ego and pressuring Johnson to pursue the Viet Nam War.

We've also had those who believed we should "Walk softly and carry a big stick".

I hope our current president can garner the support and have the resolve to carry out the war on terrorism. This involves no single nationality but rather the individual elements of "Islamic Fundementalism" which can come from any area in the middle east, and the nations that provide them safe harbor.

The terrorists involved in NYC came from the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Egypt I believe and not Afganistan. Many of them lived in the US for over a year.

Here's another perspective on America's role in the world.

THANK YOU CANADA!

mav out

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:44 PM

So do the Palestinians want us to actively support their cause, or do they want us simply to not support Israel? I will fully admit ignorance and naivete in the ongoing situations in the Middle East. I have a difficult time understanding why people can't just leave one another alone.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: martoons
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM

I know this is silly, but what ever happened to single combat. We who value the past and cultural history should see what kind of response we could get suggesting perhaps a tag team match tween 'W', bin Laden, Blair and Hussein. Let's get ready to rumble!!!! Now THAT'S what I call ultimate fighting!

G

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Dixit
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:15 PM

Folks,

Let me first offer my condolences for your loss. Loss of life always is horrible, especially when it is civilian. I have recently lived and worked in the USA for some time, and while I find the obsession with money a bit insane, that is cultural. After all, I can sound awful Old-Worldy when I hit my stride and that can be waxing too. Most US citizens I have met have been absolutely splendid people, usually willing to give you the benefit of a doubt, and a time of the day, which many of my own people are not. So on my personal scale, US Citizens rank high.

But we are obviously at a cross-roads here. As you all know, things have to constantly ... improve to get noticed, to avoid becoming routine. In the 1990s, the IRA bombings in Britain, the ETA killings in Spain and the Terrorist actions in Japan and France (typically one of the Corsican splinter fractions) only made headlines in their native country. Fairly smallscale things. A couple of dead, a grieving widow (or husband) some damanged property. Fairly routine. And now this: A minimum of 4,000 people dead and the toll likely higher. In a city, that even for us had the stripings of being untouchable... it is not going to end here, you know. What do you want to loose next time?

If we assume that Bin Laden is behind this, he will probably die fairly soon. That is one down. Will that stop terror against you, do you think? How long before the first A-bomb takes out a major US city? Sure, you strengthen your counter-intelligence. Bomb Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq back to the stone age. Help the Israelis push the last Palestinian into the Mediterranean. It provides good target practice and should give you a fair assurance of all major centers of known terrorism being flattened. 10 years down the road, the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty falls due to miniature a-bombs being placed nicely by terrorist agents been dormant in the US for 10 years and wholly respectable. Hollywood gone as well just so that LA should not feel safe.

As long as the cause for terrorism is not gone, it will persist. Unless you put all your formiddable talents to solving the _roots_ of the evil (and borrow whatever you need from the rest of us), it will get worse. Has the death sentence meant that no criminal in the US wish to risk it? It probably scares off a lot, but ... Death Row still has occupants, right? Same thing with Terrorism, unless I miss my guess. What to do?

I don't know. I just hope you can pull if off and still be you - remain the land of the free and the home of the brave. If possible.

One last thing: About Clara Barton - she did not found the Red Cross, only the American Red Cross. The International Red Cross was created by a Swiss business man, Henry Dunant in 1863, after he had been a witness to one of the (then) bloodiest battles by Solferino in Italy. Clara Barton, a U.S. nurse, came to Europe around 1869, where she learned about the Red Cross. When Barton returned to the United States in 1873, she began her crusade for the American Red Cross, which was founded in 1881, and Barton served as its first president.

She was a truly remarkable woman, would be even today, but she is 'only' the founder of the American Red Cross. But it was she who got it to be active in peacetime as well as in wartime, and that is quite an achievement :)

Best Wishes,

Dix

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:36 PM

Well Dix, if we have enough time to develop it, we're going to have a missile shield to protect us against that atom bomb.

Mav: thanks for posting that editorial. Someone emailed that to me today.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:39 PM

Doug,

It truly wonders me how we have agreed so seldom when we think so much alike. Scare me. no. I think we mostly agree where it matters.

Don

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM

Hardly DougR, no one is going to be so convenient as to try and attack the USA in a way that it expects. To use the jargon, the whole point of asymmetric force is that a few individuals can achieve maximum impact with minimum effort compared to the defence capabilities (and hence spending) of the target.

Is US customs willing or able to disrupt commerce by opening and examining every container, parcel etc sent to the US? The US spends more per year on its intelligence and counter espionage services than the GDP of most countries, but they were unable to forsee let alone prevent the attacks two days ago. Of course there is now a great slamming of stable doors, and no doubt some of those involved will be caught, but don't think for a minute that yopu can kill a hydra by cutting of its head.

In this and other threads people noticably 'Spaw and bseed (welcome back Charles!) have pointed out that to defeat any opposition whether in war or paly, you need to understand them. The West, not just the US still fails to do this, and will continue to so at their peril. Name calling may be a natural reaction, and good for PR, but the lat thing these people are is cowards, deliberately flying a plane into its target at the cost of your life is the kind of action that gets VC's and CMH's when its our people.

Like everyone else I would like to see all terrorists removed from circulation, but there are two problems. Unless the 'cause' real or percieved is addressed someone will always take their place. Secondly how do we define a terrorist? I doubt if there is a country in the world that has not at some time supported people or organisations that have used 'terrorist' tactics. If the people who carried out this attack go first, who is next? UNITA?, PIRA?, Chechin rebels?, Indonesian troops? Please don't think I'm suggesting that we should not make a start, but at least let's be honest and consistent, and have a plan which goes beyond the immediate.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:11 PM

Why is everbody using their real name in this thread?
John Evans (john in hull)

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Peg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:33 AM

missile shield???? missile shield????? are you kidding???

Pigs might fly some day, too, but I am not going to bet on it.

In the meantime I would suggest avoiding all atomic bombs.