AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still

Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

I think it's become evident that some of the best and clearest thinking is now being done with the benefit of time that has passed and more thoughts keep comong along, more talking with better reasoning....I hope that DC mirrors what I see happening here!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:58 PM

OOOPS!!!

Forgot the BLUE CLICKY MOHUNKER BACK TO THREAD SEVEN

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM

Thinking about you all in the USA.

Dunc in Scotland

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM

One of the things I like doing sometimes is watching Star Trek - and comparing what I think about it with the reviews on an excellent site run by a man called Jamahl Epsicokhan. Anyway looking in on it today I was interested to read his thoughts On A Tragic Tuesday Morning and maybe other people might as well.

I was picking up my father-in-law to bring him over to us for Sunday lunch. He talked all the way about this, speculating about what might happen, and trying to make sense of it. Had a far better ability to think about the implications of it all than nine tenths of the people you see on TV pontificating. He's 90 in a couple of weeks.

There are a lot of people out in the world using their heads and talking sense. I just hope that the people making the decisions are as well. From TV coverage it doesn't look too hopeful with some of them, but maybe they aren't the ones that will determine how it works out.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM

Just a comment to thank Amos for his thoughtful comment in the previous thread - with that xample of sanity from the US of A there is hope.

And now a modest proposal from history.

Students of History will recall that the relations between the Saxons and the Cymri (Welsh) were not based on any love. The best translation of the Welsh for England is the "Lost Lands".

King John (John Lackland) had a very effective means of controlling stroppy Welsh Princes and Kinglets.

He would put a price, in gold, on thier head - litterally.

And within a few months, a bloody and stinking sack containing the head would arrive at London, or Winchester or werever the Court would be. Accompanied by whichever kinsmen had plotted the deed.

If a sufficient reward (in USA script)was placed on the head(s) of those who were reasonably suspected of planning or facilitating this abomination I suspect that it would be paid eventually.

Perhaps not as satisfying as the need for demonstratable vengence - but effective - and politically less inflamatory.

Terrorist X needs to be lucky all the time - we only need to get lucky once.

Gareth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:41 PM

I am read-out. Can't read another commentary on it, nor listen to another pundit. I am grateful you, Spaw, and you others for keeping up on it. I listen to the top of the news, or check AP breaking news, but otherwise, I am on overload. It is good to hear that cooler heads may prevail. I give thanks that it will be so.

kat

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM

Amos, I think your idea has merit, but I'm not sure the Muslims wouldn't think it presumptious of a christian to declare that he is going to save Islam.

McGrath: As I have pointed out in numerous threads, the latest ABC polls give President Bush a 90% approval rating. So that puts you, and others who share your view in the 10 percentile group, I suppose. Far from a majority I'd say.

I really don't know what such speculation is designed to accomplish anyway. Colin Powell is Secretary of State. Even were some calamity befall President Bush, he wouldn't succeed the President. Next comes the Vice President (who you don't like either), then Dennis Hastert (who you may not even know), and on down the line.

As I recall, you're not much of a fan of your Tony Blair either. I think he made a very powerful speech at Parliment a few days ago, and I am delighted that the leaders of Great Britain support the President.

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM

Well they tried Gareth's suggestion with Salman Rushdie didn't they, and so far noone has collected.

And of course two could play at that game, with prices set on the head of our political leaders. Mind you, I wouldn't see that as too important, but they might I suppose.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

I'm glad I didn't blast everyone away with my atheistic sermon. Maybe more Cointreau is the solution. I just spent a peaceful afternoon saying farewell to an old friend and mentor, Bill Bonyun, in very good company. I do think we are after a deadly cult that deserves no mercy, and would not understand it if mercy was offered. I hope our pathetic president gets that message.

What I also find even more haunting and disturbing is I think more of us can really understand how ordinary people in Japan must have felt when hundreds of thouands of their people were killed in two massive atomic blasts. Were there citizens here who actually cheered and danced in the streets? That's a very dark valley to walk through and I think I'll sign off.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:38 PM

I am compiling a list of all relevant threads, as suggested in one of these. I'll post them in a new thread.

kat

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

Kat - please get some sleep if you can.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

DougR, just for the record, NPR (National Public Radio) this morning quoted the poll as giving the President an 80% approval rating.

But keep in mind: The people responding to the polls are American, not people in other countries. Non-American people, including those in the UK, may easily respond differently.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

Charley, thanks so much. I actually took a long and very deep sleep nap this afternoon with warm, comforting cats draped across me, snuggling at my feet, etc. I was exhausted, but feel much better now. I appreciate your concern.

kat

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:23 PM

DougR, et al

My notion is not to say we are going to "save Islam" but merely that weare going to eradicate a cruel and violent cult which among other things has perverted the repute of Islam by twisting its teaching to the side of evil; thus, we will restore freedom of religion to those who wish to follow their hearts and the teaching of islam just as much as we protect it for those who wish to follow the teachings of Gandhi, Buddha, Deepodio Lancaster Gotwallop, or L. Ron Hubbard as long as in so doing they do not break the laws of common humanity.

There are quotes to be found in the Koran which amount to refusing to commit violence even in resposnse to violence. I think a talented script writer could handle this in such a way as to make a major PR coup out of it.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:36 PM

The people of America did not dance in the streets when the Bomb was dropped on Japan.
They DID, however, dance in the streets when Japan surrendered.
We were in a declared war with Japan and their government was warned that we had a devastating new weapon and that they had best call for a cessation of hostilities and a truce. They ignored the warning and President Truman gave the go-ahead.
I see little correlation between the two events and the emotions that followed.

troll

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Bill Galbraith
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:50 PM

Emily B here actually,

Thanks to each and every one of you who has participated in this thread. I've found it all so comforting, as though a large group of friends and family was together and trying to sort out this madness. I appreciate the early postings keeping those of us who were away from a tv informed. This thread has been a chance for folks to grieve, rage, comfort, and debate. I've found it quite healing. As though I were participating myself. I haven't because I didn't have the words.

I discovered Wednesday morning that I knew someone on Flight 11 that hit the WTC. What was just so unbelievable suddenly became a very dark reality.

It is good to know in these times that so much of the rest of the world is feeling our pain and is sending such healing thoughts as many of our international posters have done. Thanks to all who included links to other pertinent threads or articles. I found the letter (via link in thread 7 I think) from the Afghan native to be most revealing and informative. A good perspective that hadn't been seen yet.

The mudcat family is strong and loving, just as all families should be. That we can share a thread on a topic of this magnitude says so much about this community. Thanks again to all. My thoughts and sympathies go out to all who are grieving.

Emily Blunck

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 10:07 PM

Trull - "The people of America did not dance in the streets when the Bomb was dropped on Japan."

I would like to believe you are right, but I doubt it...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 10:21 PM

Check it out. I'm not 100% positive myself but I've never seen any reference to it.

troll

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: khandu
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

The "vision" of America is vastly greater than the realities of America. (How arrogant we must seem to others when we refer to the USA as "America".) We have done some dreadful deeds, we have made a kajillion mistakes, we fight among ourselves, many (if not most) of our representatives are corrupt. We are like spoiled rich kids.

But...the "vision" of America stirs us. Stirs us to stand up. Stirs us to defend her when she is attacked.

We, as a nation, have a long way to go before the realities rise to the standard of the ideals. But, by God, we have that vision instilled in us that America is the best place on earth, and we love her, maybe more for what we believe she can be than for what she is.

With all her flaws, she is the land that I love. She is my home. As much as I try to live in peace, as much as lies within me, with my fellow humans, I will defend my home!

Ken

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:12 AM

Maybe it's time for us to include all of humanity in our hopes for the good that can be. Maybe it's time for those of us in the US to broaden our "vision".

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:48 AM

Amos: well then, good luck.

Charlie Noble: I was was alive and kicking, and I can assure you that there was no dancing in the streets at the dropping of the bomb. As Troll says, however, there was dancing in the streets when Japan surrendered.

Geeze, Ken, where in the heck are you coming from? You been around this week? The vision of America shoudl be to destroy terriorism! You disagree?

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM

Whatever form our government's response to the terrorist attacks takes, and if Bin Laden's culpability is confirmed, I hope our policy recognizes that the Afghani populace in general are victims of the Taliban's despotic rule.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM

chanteyranger: so were the people in Germany under Hitler. Should we have bombed them or no?

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:27 AM

Probably not. The scars from the bombing of German cities and the bombs on Japan have not healed and we still suffer today from those decisions.

They may have been thought necessary too, at the time.

They may both have shortened the conflict, but we must lern ALL the lessons of our past actions, if we are not to keep making the same mistakes.

It is a complicated world and uncomplicated solutions, will only further complicate the worrld.

There is only one world and we all have to learn how to live in it.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:01 AM

The US respect for due process and the rule of law for its citizens is a wonderful thing. How much more wonderful when that same respect is shown to citizens of other countries?

I read on a CNN web poll that 80% favoured bombing Kabul if Ben Laden is not turned over by the Taliban. I hope that bombing never takes place. I do not think that the pursuit of justice should include the destruction of innocent civilians. I do not want to face another generation of suicide bombers.

What the USA has done in the past is not the important issue in this fight. It is what she does from now forward.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:54 AM

"The people of America did not dance in the streets when the Bomb was dropped on Japan" - and "the people of Palestine" did not dance in the streets after Tuesdday's events either. Some people did.

I'd be very surprised, given human nature, if there were not some people who celebrated at the news of Hiroshima, even in advance of the Japanese surrender. Remember they didn't have camera crews roving the streets looking for this kind of thing.

People who have been hurt are likely to feel vengeful. When people have lost their loved ones, and had their lives destroyed, noone can blame them if sometimes their anger expressed itself in jubilation when a mortal blow was inflicted on the people they saw as their enemies, while their imaginations failed to appreciate the appalling nature of what had been done.

And that last paragraph could have been about people in August 1945 in Europe or America, or about people in Palestine this week.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM

We wonder more than a bit over here what the scope of the USA actions will be? One politician said something about 'ending states'. How many of them? For a first guess we can look back at the yearly terrorism report of the USA state department back in April 2001 about which states it considers to harbour terrorists. The report lists seven 'villain countries':

Iran, Irak, Libya, Cuba, Syria, North Korea and Sudan

Are you missing Afghanistan? Yes, but only because it was and is not a recognised state. It gets a dishonourable mention. Listed too are two states that do not actively harbour terrorists but do not take adequate action against them:
Yemen and Palestine

Among this list are extremely unlikely candidates like e.g. North Korea, for several reasons, but it is always good to know what the upper limit is. This list is scaring.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:39 AM

And I would bet everything I've got that the people who planned and organised this are probably not in any of those countries.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:28 AM

Why we would bomb Kabul? To prevent the manufacture of terrorists? Don't we have to declare ware ON someplace before we start bombing them?

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:38 AM

I watched the Irish news on Sunday evening and one of their reporters was in one of the refugee camps. The conditions were heartbreaking. No blankets, little food and one poor devil had recently seen his twin daughters of two months die. The plight of the children was piteous. Perhaps this is the wrong thread to post this, but when revenge is taken, it is as well to remember that not all the Afghan people support the lunatics who call themselves supporters of Bin Laden and the Taliban.
The following words are by Christina Rosetti and may give comfort to those who have lost loved ones. Apologies if they have alread been posted but I haven't checked every thread.

REMEMBER

Remember me when I am gone away,
Gone far away into the silent land;
When you can no more hold me by the hand,
Nor I half turn to go yet turning stay.
Remember me when no more day by day
You tell me of our future that you planned:
Only remember me; you understand
It will be late to counsel then or pray.
Yet if you should forget me for a while
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
Better by far you should forget and smile
Than that you should remember and be sad.

God Bless.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Clifton53
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:49 AM

The U.S.A. has citizens within it's borders from every nation on earth including people from nations we see as enemies. Would anyone dispute that? They are free here to make a better life and to watch their children grow strong. They are allowed to open a store or a factory, allowed to worship at their faith in buildings of their own making. In short, they are tolerated.

Where is tolerance in the middle east? These radical fundamentalists cannot even abide one small country in their midst that sees a different god than they do. One small country!! If we acted like that, and I don't wish to get into all the Zionist arguments, pro or con, we would be pilloried world-wide and taken to task for our intolerance.

These people are willing to destroy the Western world because they cannot tolerate one small country!!

I pray for peace

Clifton

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: bill\sables
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:55 AM

There is an old Scottish proverb which states;
"A young trooper needs an old horse"

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: kendall
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM

I cant help but wonder what there is to approve of, Doug. all I've seen so far is this geek spouting platitudes in his usual style. (Incomplete sentences)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:50 AM

Emily, I am very sorry for your loss, though it is good to hear we might have been helpful, in some way. Please feel free to PM me, if you need to talk etc.

In Sorrow and Sympathy,

kat

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,poffice
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM

I am an American, 62 years old. I grew up in a small midwestern town. I was young at the time of VJ Day but I remember for the first time in my young life a news boy came down our street shouting the news of victory (just like the movies). Everyone that was home came out to get a paper. The adults stood in the street reading, when they finished much huging and crying went on, no dancing or jubulation. Yes they were happy now we wouldn't have as many Gold Star mothers. (For those who don't know what a Gold Star mother was, she was a mother who had lost a son in THE WAR) She had a small banner in her window with a star for each son at war, Blue if son is alive Gold if gone.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Troll
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM

Clifton, the problem is not the worship of God under a different name. The Koran specifically names Jews as "The People of the Book" and recognizes Abraham as the Father of the Arab people. They also recognize Jesus of Nazreth as a great prophet and teacher.
The problem is the control of Jerusalem, which is holy to both faiths. For Jews, it is the site of Solomons Temple wherein was kept the Ark of the Covenant.
For Muslims it is the third holiest spot in Isalm being the place where Mohammad ascended to heaven.
The fly in the ointment, so to speak, is that both spots are the same!
The site of the Temple was on so-called Temple Mount, the spot where the Dome of the Rock and the El Aqsa Mosque now stand as they have stood for over a thousand years.
Jewish tradition says that when the temple is restored, the Messiah will come, but to restore the Temple would mean the destruction of the Dome and the Mosque. All Islam would rise up if that were to happen.
So it isn't just about the taking of a small bit of real estate in 1948.
The conflict strikes at the roots of both Islam and Judiaism.
BTW, Happy New Year to all.

troll

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM

First I want to say it is interesting to see the development of ideas on this subject. Like most everyone I too hope cooler heads will prevail.

I am an American, 62 years old. I grew up in a small midwestern town. I was young at the time of VJ Day but I remember for the first time in my young life a news boy came down our street shouting the news of victory (just like the movies). Everyone that was home came out to get a paper. The adults stood in the street reading, when they finished much huging and crying went on, no dancing or jubulation. Yes they were happy now we wouldn't have as many Gold Star mothers. (For those who don't know what a Gold Star mother was, she was a mother who had lost a son in THE WAR) She had a small banner in her window with a star for each son at war, Blue if son is alive Gold if gone.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM

On Hiroshima and Nagasaki

read this

(http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM

Eliminating terrorism is not a goal which requires large scale nation-to-nation military deployment. It requires intelligence, individual and network locales identified, a deep understanding of the thinking processes of the enemy and how he gets support, a masterful ability to turn PR and public perception, and the deployment of small squads, more likely, than batallions of ground troops and armored vehicles.

In my humble opinion.

The problem with this is that intell and PR are NOT our strong suite.

I think we ought to contract Bill Gates to run the campaign.

A.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 11:53 AM

If you go to the mainpage for the Institute for Historical Review, which is the source for the page listed above, you will notice that they also refute the "Zionist Lie" of the Holocaust--

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

And yet they are "non-ideological" -- it says so on their web site so it must be true, eh?

Alex (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM

Jeeeze!!! What is WITH these guys?

A.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM

I remember August 6, 1945 vividly. I was fourteen years old at the time. My Dad and I were in the car, parked and waiting for my mother and two sisters, and we were listening to the car radio when the news report came that the Japanese city of Hiroshima had been struck with a new kind of bomb. It was an "atomic" bomb, the newscaster said, and preliminary reports said that the entire city had been destroyed in a gigantic fireball.

The newscaster went on to say that one of the ingredients of an atomic bomb is a substance called uranium, which is radioactive, much like radium. One of the results (he said) was that the entire region might be radioactive, and that the site of the city could be uninhabitable for decades to come. He emphasized that the entire city had been destroyed with a single bomb, dropped from a single airplane.

My dad and I sat silently for several minutes as the report continued. We knew that from here on, things were going to be different.

It may have happened here and there, but there was no rejoicing or dancing in the streets that I ever saw. People were pretty somber.

There was rejoicing and dancing in the streets a week or so later when we learned that the war was finally over.

For some insight into what was going on in Japan at this time, click here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM

It is interesting to note and to ponder the questions why, these weapons have not (to date), been used again. For it must be to our credit that we have not........

A sign of hope?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:27 PM

Being from Montana, which of late has become the home of assorted kooks (the Unabomber and the Freemen), and being next door to Idaho which has a good number of Aryian (SP?) Nation members, I'm wondering if the "War" against terrorism is going to start at home ?

It could get very interesting sorting out "freedom fighters" from terrorists.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:33 PM

Well, there you have it. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM

Don:

Many thanks for the enlightening link. Given the overall situation, it appears the choices were actually to invade or to bomb. While we could have limited ourselves to non-nuclear bombs, I think from this data it appears there was a good probability Japan would have resisted surrender in favor of a guerilla-based homeland defense at the time.

Understanding the politics of the moment from this perspective is actually helpful to me.

Thanks,

A.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:47 PM

I got cut off in the midst of posting my last thread. What I intended to say (before I had to go deal with a customer) was that the American Revolutionaries were probably seen as terrorists by the British King, and of course were seen as patriots by we Americans.

I can well imagine that some of the fringe groups in this country, who are terrorists to various minority groups, are going to hide behind the banner of "freedom fighter."

It's going to be a complicated sorting process, fraught with perils to various kinds of freedom.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Gareth
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

Again Kipling (an astute comentator) had something to say on this -
an extract from the Ballad of Bo Da Throne

Boh Da Thone was a warrior bold:
His sword and his Snider were bossed with gold,
And the Peacock Banner his henchmen bore
Was stiff with bullion, but stiffer with gore.
He shot at the strong and he slashed at the weak
From the Salween scrub to the Chindwin teak:
He crucified noble, he sacrificed mean,
He filled old ladies with kerosene:

Gareth

The collected works of Rudyard Kipling can be found - Here

While over the water the papers cried,
"The patriot fights for his countryside!"

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

Haven't responded before, but have been reading along when time permitted.

My sense is that the shape of the bombing and its aftermath was reflected in the response of the human community, mirrored here on Mudcat through these threads ---- A short burst of time when there was physical shock, a momentary pause when it seemed that everything could be made sane or insane, and then a vast wave of the total and complete destruction of all meaning, speechless horror, and then a vast explosion of words trying to capture explanations that kept exploding beyond the capacity of language to hold them in, people rushing in with explanations, ways of dousing the collapse of the way things were, and then everywhere fragments, shards, rubbles of meaning, and then at last, finally, in the heart of the babble, exhausted silence, the pages and pages, littering the streets of the city, blizzards of yesterday's memos and memories. Rumours, whispers, and then the rise of mourning like smoke in the rain. And out of the wreckage of the old, some of the old worlds and old words revive, out of need: some of them reminted -- "hero", for instance, with new beauty -- and some of them brought back, but so useless as to be misleading -- "war", for instance, when what is needed is a new word, beyond what has been meant by war. So it is with all great experiences: they blast the old words away, and we grope back over the dust and debris once more into halting speech. I believe that we should not betray the events by the redeployment of the old words which inevitably redeploy the old forces: but we are a long way from the new words that would tell us what we are to do, now. But that is what artists are for, ultimately: people here and others.

yours, Peter T.