BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?

Subject: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:46 PM

It has been a long time since we had any controversial threads on here, and God knows I am not one to stir things up, but I do feel there is an issue here which should be addressed..

Ever since September 11th I have pondered the question of why anyone would want to sacrifice their life for a political ideal and until now I have not come up with any satisfactory answers. However I believe that I now have a hypothesis which may explain the "martyr " phenomenon.

The best estimate we have of the incidence of homosexuality is that 10 percent of males are homosexual. Presumably this ratio is as applicable to the Arab world as it is to the Western world. Yet where do we see evidence of a Gay Liberation Front in any of the Islamic nations? Although, as anyone who has read T.E Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" will be aware, homosexuality is as common in the Arab world as it is in the West, maybe even more so.

But, in modern , ever increasingly fundamentalist, I slam , we see an intolerance of homosexuality that rivals that of Victoriam Britain, when the act of sodomy was criminalized by Statute for the first time. In Britain, until the advent of the Wolfenden Report of 1957 and the subsequent decriminalization of homosexuality, one of the most common reasons for suicide among adult males was the fear of impending prosecution as a result of having been discovered in flagrante delictu

Now, when we examine the resumés of the hijackers responsible for the atrocities of 9/11 it transpires that none of them conform to the conventional husband/ father model. There is also evidence here in South Florida that they had resisted the importunings of the hookers in Fort Lauderdale.shortly before their suicide mission. (Although they were not averse to drinking alcohol) All of which leads me to guess hypothesize, call it what you will, that these men were perhaps not of the 90 percent.

My postulate is that they were first of all arrested in their own countries for committing homosexual acts, and that through the Al Qaida network, were offered redemption and a place in Paradise by carrying out thei heinous crimes of 9/11.

Now I am aware that I do not know whether any of this is true. I am equally aware that nobody can know whether it is untrue. But , IMHO, it bears thinking about . And please note that nothing in this post is intended as homophobic.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:58 PM

Suicidal fanatics from these groups are often told their families will be taken care of as a benefit of their glorious sacrifice. I have no data one way or the other on those pilots specifically though. I guess your hypothesis is as good as any without supporting data, mate -- but maybe it was bank robbery or shaving??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:10 AM

Maybe they were victims of excessive thinking.

Geez Murray, how in the hell did you come up with that one? I mean like your records spinning but the sound is wacky, like man, have you got a warped groove or what?

Gawd, I LOVE IT!!!! Gay guys huh? Okay MurrMan........It's a theory anyway. So listen...Send me some of that shit you're smokin' huh? Just a little.....Seems to be pretty potent stuff!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:10 AM

Well I was suprised, I was not going to read this thread because I thought it would be started by a guest trying to make trouble.But I heard somewhere that gay people are much more likely to commit suicide than straight people so maybe you are right.Or maybe they had been caught flying kites wich the taliban said was illegal.I think the taliban people are crazy and I hope they make a sensible peaceful goverment in Afghanistan.I really can't see the logic in banning kite flying or listening to music, what are they supposed to do all day, just sit and pray? they are all crazy if you ask me.john

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:12 AM

Hey, send some to Amos too......He's been down a bit and had pneumonia and all that......I think he and I would both like to cop a quality buzz.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:14 AM

Send me some as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:15 AM

Hey Spaw you got it right first time, excessive thinking.

You got to admit it, it could be true. Although as Amos says there is no data and the evidence is scant and circumstantial at best.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:24 AM

Murray, did you come up with this while your wife was out of town and you were eating the half cooked pork? I gotta' go check all the possible symptoms of Trichinosis...........

Truth be told, you might have the exact reason and you could be completely out in deep roving right field. The thought is worthy because the thing we have always done least well is to understand the thinking of those that we are fighting.......witness the Bushido code of the Samurai and how we thought the Kamikaze were nuts. Trying to understand may be fraught with perils of it's own, but writing off that which we don't understand has a guaranteed peril built in.

HOWEVER, all that aside, I will continue to kid you about this one!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Peg
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:24 AM

Gays are more likely to commit suicide? If this is true (I would want to see some sort of statistics which bear thisout) then no doubt it is because of the prejudice they face; this would be especially true of gay teenagers...who have committed suicide in appalling proportions in recent years.

BTW I think that theory, while, well, interesting for its novelty, is a bit ridiculous...

In addition to being evil they're also gay? Gee that's useful information.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:29 AM

Many years ago I worked as a property claims adjuster. I went to fire scenes with a seasoned pro. He would ask the building managers whether gay males lived in the building. Shocked me. Then he said there is a strong correlation between arson and homosexuality. Make of it what you will.

Second, I read in the New York Times that a great number of the Al Qaeda recruits are young males who have been economically frustrated from achieving their marital goals.

Third, the theory of yours has no support, Mr. MacLeod, but I sure admire your balls in posing it. (Well, not your balls, per se. . . . )

Dan No Last Name

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:30 AM

This is ridiculous. People who are gay and commit suicide because their cultures reject homosexuality are one thing. These guys did not commit suicide to end their lives. Suicide was incidental to what they did--a necessary part, but not the goal of their actions. If fundamentalist Islam claimed they were damned because of homosexuality, then a martyrdom of this sort wouldn't save them anyway.

The reason these guys were not family men is that terrorist networks usually recruit non-family men. In fact, in an article in this month's Atlantic, the former head of Arafat's crack terrorist squads explained what they did to eliminate their own network before it hurt the cause: they got a bunch of attractive, unmarried Palestinian women and held mixers until their former suicide bombers were all married. It is well-recognized in the terrorist world that people with wives and kids won't blow themselves up.

I'm not saying none of these men were gay. But I am saying that there's no evidence at all that can't be more easily explained by other means.

And just SAYING something isn't homophobic doesn't make it so. To claim that something about Islamic homosexuals makes them willing to kill tens of thousands of people just to end their own suffering certainly isn't flattering. Remember, bigots don't INTEND to be bigots.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:31 AM

As well, do you think there are no gay prostitutes, Murray? Just because they didn't succumb to prossies in FL doesn't mean they were not hetero. Do you seek out prossies because you are, I assume, hetero? No offense intended, just trying to screw with your logic.:-)

Here's another one for you, just as sportpeople are told to lay off the sex before a big event, so do "warriors," in some societies, believe it is best not expend energy that way before a battle.

There are so many other explanations which would be much closer to the truth, IMO, I think Spaw's gotcha on this one...share that joint, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:34 AM

Oops. Just realized that I described Arafat's troops as "former suicide bombers." Of course, I meant the pool of people formerly willing to be used as suicide bombers. No former suicide bomber's around to tell the tale.

Dan--maybe the terrorists admired Murray's balls, too ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:45 AM

Well Dan, he is a Scot and now I understand that the Kilt Pin isn't used for holding the kilt together, so perhaps his balls were readily accesible for admiration.........or maybe not...........Or maybe they got a really good gander at them and that's why they committed suicide.

Pass the bong please.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:45 AM

It is well-recognized in the terrorist world that people with wives and kids won't blow themselves up.

First of all, I have to ask if you are Ranger Steve, who is a Mudcat member. If you are then I respect your opinions, I have read your previous postings. If you are not, how would you know about the terrorist world?

Nowhere in my post is there any trace of homophobia, I was trying genuinely to come up with a believable reason for an incomprehensible act.

And until someone comes up with evidence to the contrary, I will believe that my hypothesis is valid.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:54 AM

Kat, I am sorry to disillusion you ,but traditionally, it has always been the martial custom to get laid before you get slayed. I have no evidence from the rent boys of Florida, I have to admit, but perhaps I can persuade one of the reporters from the "New Times" to investigate.

Meanwhile, let me reiterate that this is not a honopobic thread, I am postulating a hypothesis which I consider worthy of consideration.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:21 AM

Murray, maybe in the some of the Western world, but not so among some Asian and Native American cultures. Spilling a man's seed before battle can cause a depletion of his power and energy according to some belief systems.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:26 AM

I always figured I'd spill a lot less seed if I had a bigger container.

anon.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:46 AM

Kat, far be it from me to instigate any thread creep, but it has never been my experience that spilling of my seed has caused any diminution of my powers (which are fragile at best, granted)

Au contraire, the early morning seed dispersion has invariably caused a resurgence of vitality which could not have been accomplished ny any other means.

Pace the practitioners of Tantric sex ......

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve (not ranger)
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:04 AM

I'm not ranger steve, but I am a member. Some weeks ago I updated my web software, and my cookie vanished with the old stuff.

How would I know about the terrorist world? How would YOU know about homosexuality and suicide rate? I presume in the same way: by reading about it and studying it. I mentioned the article in the Atlantic, which is one place you can go to. Abu Iyad, former head of Black September (Arafat's fanatical fighters), explains that the men in Black September had no real reason to live rather than die: they were young, unmarried, without good jobs or prospects. As soon as they married these men off, they ceased to want to take part in terrorist activity. Iyad even tested them by offering them missions. Wihout exception, they refused.

One more thing: without exception, the Black September members fell in love and married. It is reasonable to assume, then, that most of them were not gay.

If you imagine that Al Quaeda is unaware of the Black September case, fine. But given the way the world of Islamic terror organizations is laid out--with the same people being members of organizations in different countries throughout the Middle East--it's very unlikely. Therefore, this experiment alone is enough to tell Bin Laden that the people he needs to seek out for suicide missions are young, unmarried men.

Once again, the only evidence you've presented is that they're young, unmarried men (which is explained by the above) that they stayed away from American hookers (hardly surprising for Islamic fundamentalist fanatics), and that gay men have a high suicide rate. But this was not primarily suicide, it was primarily genocide. If I wanted to kill myself, I would NOT do it this way, and neither would you, I trust.

Therefore, I just don't see any evidence of homosexuality. As to the remarks being homophobic, it's an open question whether suggesting that something about gay men makes them more likely than straight men to kill 10,000 people is homophobic. I think many people would say it is, regardless of your intentions. I understand that you don't mean to give offense, and I, not being gay, don't personally take offense. But I have plenty of gay friends who would!

And BTW, Kat is right. In many cultures it is taboo to have sex before battle. I do not know what Afghani or Arab customs are in this regard.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:26 AM

As you say, it might be true. Or they might have been reptilian aliens from the planet Zog who were beamed off the planes just before they crashed. Covers the known facts just as well.

But I can't see why there's any need to think up fancy explanations. Some people who believe strongly enough in a cause have always been willing to die for it, and normally they've been quite willing to kill for it as well. "Give me liberty or give me death". And having a partner and a family back home is a factor that always makes people less available to volunteer for any kind of suicide mission. (And that would apply regardless of the sex of the partner.)

Actually there was a report that, based on the presence or absence of goodbye notes and such, it could be that only the actual people who piloted the planes knew it was a suicide hijacking. Though of course that might have been some kind of cunning leak by the authorities designed to have some kind of propaganda effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:10 AM

Steve, my observations about the suicide rate among gay men (or, more accurately, the incidence of homosexuality among suicides) referred to the climate of opinion in Britain prior to the decriminalization of homosexuality, a climate which finds its parallel in the Islamic world today. Once again, I made no suggestion that in the normal course of events gay men are more likely than straight men to commit suicide. Being gay is not the issue here, being marginalized is.

Kevin writes " it could be that only the actual people who piloted the planes knew it was a suicide hijacking." Since there is no evidence that their carry-on luggage included parachutes, I have some difficulty in believing this.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:57 AM

The current status of the research with homosexuals and suicide confirms that they represent a high risk group, but the motives, causality and predictability of future self injuries remains as enigmatic as with other identified higher risk populations.

Copied and pasted from here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:41 AM

Murray,

I understand what you're saying about marginalization causing higher suicide rates, but I reiterate that these people obviously did not do what they did in order to end their own suffering. To do that, one might jump off the WTC, but not run a plane into it! MY point is that there isn't much evidence that gay men have a higher rate of being violent sociopaths, which would be a better measure of whether they are likely to do something like this. And to suggest that gay men are more likely to be sociopaths, in the absence of evidence, would strike many as homophobic.

I don't understand your point about parachutes. Your own original point seemed to be that the hijackers committed suicide and therefore might come from a high-stress group such as gay men. Kevin's was that among the hijackers, perhaps only the pilots knew what the destination of the planes was. The others may have thought they were going to land somewhere. I agree this isn't THAT likely, but they would not have needed parachutes in this scenario.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Ohmygawd
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:02 AM

You do seem to have some deep seated sexual identity problems Murray.

First the "idea" that everyone should identify themselves by gender. Then the "idea" that the hijackers were gay because they wouldn't conform to your blinkered idea of red blooded American manhood.

Getting laid before slayed? Are you living in an imaginary Ronald Reagan world of male sexual values circa 1938? I'm sorry, I take that back--it is too insulting to my father and grandfather.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:14 AM

I guess the hijackers (young, single men willing to die for a cause) have a lot in common with the young, single men willing to die for a cause currently serving in the US armed forces.

There is a reason why conscription laws require the military only take young, impressionable men (preferably under 20 and right out of high school). They are easier to convince that the cause is actually worth dying for, when it usually isn't.

Buy a clue, folks. Military minds all think alike, be they American, Arab, or any other nationality or religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:23 AM

I repectfully disagree with Guest on this. "The military minds" of many of the current and former UK & US soldiers on mudcat would never have conceived of bombing something like the WTC. I don't think you can call OBL's mind a military one in any case.

Granted, we don't have to jump on the bandwagon to support current actions, but don't demonize everyone who's ever fought in a war, either...

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:43 AM

Murray's speculation may be a bit far-fetched, but I am unwilling to brand him a homophobe on that basis. Many a wild speculation has led to fruitful (so to speak) research. To wit:

Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition : English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth-Century Caribbean (The link goes to amazon.com) According to one reviewer, "If you've ever wondered exactly what to do with a drunken sailor, this is the book for you." And here is the NYU Press advertisement for this book, and here is a review of same.

By the way, following up links from those pages led to some fascinating stuff, for example:

Islamic Homosexualities : Culture, History, and Literature

Sex Longing & Not Belonging : A Gay Muslim's Quest for Love & Meaning

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:22 AM

Steve (not Ranger) says: "One more thing: without exception, the Black September members fell in love and married. It is reasonable to assume, then, that most of them were not gay."

Hold on thar! Gay men have been known to marry and have children, and even to repress their desire to have sex with other men, so I think it's a faulty assumption to say that "most" of these men weren't gay. I don't know if it's possible for a totally homosexual man to fall in love with a woman, but I also take issue with your assumption that these men fell in love at all. All we know is that they chose female partners and married them. My question is: did they do this of their own free will (which might indicate that at least some of them may have "fallen in love"), or were they ordered to do so, regardless of their sexual orientation?


Murray: I agree with those who say that your theory is no more or less posible than any other. Indeed, suicide was not the primary goal of the 9/11 mission, and I suspect the terrorists were driven more by their hatred for America than by the desire for a place in their Paradise for gays.

We do know that at least one of the hijackers was heterosexual, from the farewell letter he wrote to his girlfriend in Germany that was intercepted by the government due to a mistake in the address. This also contradicts the assumption that all of the hijackers were romantically unattached.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:23 AM

Hi Murray,

I don't know if T.E Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" is any indication of the prevalence of homosexuality in the muslim world. For one thing the experiences described in the book were confined to the Arabian Peninsula during WWI, Also the author's descriptions of the homosexuals in the book was so flowery as to indicate, to me at least, that he was biased in their favour.

Interestingly, I have often thought of "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" since September 11, I read it earlier this year. I've been trying to reconcile the values of the Arab "Freedom fighters" of the book with those of Al Qaida. I also wondered if the Saud family were the heroes that Lawrence made them out to be. Certianly their political savy has carried on to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:32 AM

"And until someone comes up with evidence to the contrary, I will believe that my hypothesis is valid. "

"Pluritas non est ponenda sine necessitate"
William of Occam

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:36 AM

I don't think this is a good theory at all, just because you don't want to have sex with a prostitute does not mean that you are gay.Murray your paragraph about the other terrorists not taking parachutes does not make sense at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Peg
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:38 AM

I can't agree that the fact that some guy wrote a letter to his sweetheart automatically makes him heterosexual; see comments above that there are plenty of homosexuals who marry women and father children.

I do agree the original thesis is homophobic...and faulty for the reasons many others reiterate here. The desire to kill oneself being more prevalent among gays (ifindeed this is true) does NOT explain the willingness of these men to kill thousands of others in their quest to end their own lives.

I also agree that just saying you are not being homophobic, does not mean you are not being homophobic...anymore than writing a letter to your sweetheart unequivocally makes you a straight man...

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:07 AM

Using your 10% theory, I guess that means that 10% of Mudcatters are gay, too. Or are we talking about the other people?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve (still not ranger)
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:19 AM

In response to SharonA,

according to Abu Iyad, the men were neither ordered nor forced to marry. If they had been, the experiment would not have worked; being forced to live a lie with a family one did not love would still not constitute being given something to live for. And it is precisely because these men would not follow every order Arafat or Iyad gave that Iyad needed to marry them off; otherwise, a simple command of "don't commit any more violence" would have sufficed. Thus, ordering them to marry would not have worked.

It is true, of course, that gay men have been known to marry and have kids. But my point was that, since there was a 100% marriage rate among these guys, it's unlikely that they were predominantly gay. After all, most gay men do not get married and have kids. However, here I will admit ignorance of Palestinian culture; it may be that there, most gay men do marry and have kids.

My point was simply this: the terrorists being unmarried men was probably more a function of the ways in which terrorists are recruited than of their sexual orientation. There is simply no evidence that they were gay, and some evidence (as SharonA points out) that at least one of them was not.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Guessed
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:24 AM

I question the 10% figure Murray
It is reckoned that figure is nearly true of London (anecdotal but which suburbs?). But then so it is with average IQ. It is higher in London. The figures get skewed by the halo effect. Head offices and theatres (& media) abound in capital cities which explains some of the skewed figures. I have seen figures for homosexuality %'s for UK as a whole and it is a lot less than 10% even allowing for parochialism and an obvious wish for anonymity. Culture will only play a small part in it.
some terrorist being gay? statistically is inevitable.
California would fit the bill on most counts, it is the film capital and silicon valley IS because of the brains coagulating there.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:25 AM

The real lure of theories like this is that it is easy to make them internally consistent,,,,you adopt one false premise, and anything follows.

David Hume had this amazing philosophical treatise that had a form of solipism at it's core, but in a small aside in some footnote, he once admitted that he found it difficult to treat his own thesis seriously in daily life......Gay terrorists is even easier to posit and accept, but suffers from the same logical flaw as Hume was contending with..**unless** we get some corroborating evidence that it played some part in the lives of 'some' of the hijackers.

Theories are starting places for investigating, not for 'believing'.

Now, let me outline for you my thesis that Microsoft is just a front for the Tri-Lateral Commission, and is supported by Aliens which have collected genetic material from Elvis and Marilyn Monroe and is planning to clone them and use the wilds of Afganistan as their base for world domination,,,

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:32 AM

Well Bill, I see Murray has already sent you some of that shit he's smokin'........and I even asked first! can you spare maybe a bowl full?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:38 AM

I heard somewhere that Elvis works in a petrol station in Bradford, he was fed up of being famous and wanted a quiet life.This must be true because it was in The Sun, a very well respected brittish newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:40 AM

I personally can see NO link to what happened on september 11th and gays? I am hearing you say that gays commit suicide 'more' than other groups in society. But stop and think what your saying. When you commit suicide your purpose is to kill YOURSELF as you are DESPERATE. Would you really want to plan it for 10 or more years?

If you wanted to commit suicide because you may be 'gay' you would not link yourself to one of the biggest terrorist organisations and drive a plane full of people into the twin towers, in a HIGHLY PLANNED coreographed plan to hit the twin towers. You would probably jump of a bridge or crash your car, wouldn't you?

Obiouly know one knows if they were or weren't but at the end of the day does it REALLY matter. You say it was not a hoemophobic post but the post is in essence having a dig at gay people seeing and questioning that to be gay may be a reason why they did it. gay people are a vulnerable minority in society that alreay suffer from our society. The muslims are already suffereing from racial abuse linked to the war, LETS NOT ADD ANOTHER GROUP TO THAT LIST.

un-named

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:53 AM

Murray , you are being most provocative, but I do respect your desire to start a controversial thread. If we do not as a group devolve into flaming we will have demonstrated some more intellectual evolution as a species, at least here at Mudcat!!!! I might point out that if they wanted to be homosexual and not die they could just live in this country and be offered a little more freedom than in Islamic countries.

The most powerful motivator is most likely their willingness to die for Islam. This is cultivated by the segregation and brainwashing of male children in Islam, not by homosexuality, and the implicit and explicit notions that women are inferior, unclean, temptresses, unwothy of education, etc. The whole cultural belief system about males and females is sick!!!!! If anything, much of the homosexuality to be discovered in these Islamic countries is probably the result of cultural and religious practices.

We don't really know why about ten percent of our species is homosexual despite the fact that since their reproductive rate is lower, logically as a behavior it might disappear. Perhaps it allows heterosexual behavior to persist as dominant behavior from a natural selection point of view, that is, it is in support of heterosexual reproduction. With that hypothesis, if you are straight you should thank a gay person!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:59 AM

harpgirl, your post reminds me of the thing that Bob Bennett puts in his signature:

As children we were taught that sex is dirty and filthy and sinful and wrong, and should be saved for the one we love the most. No wonder we're so messed up!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:14 PM

Most hijackings have involved diverting a plane to another airfield somewhere, either as a way of getting there for the hijackers (eg "take me to Havana", or Miami), or as some kind of bargaining process, with the plane and the passengers as hostages.

The idea of using a hijacked plane as a guided missile doesn't seem to have come up before September 11th. There could well have been advantages if the people who had the job of keeping the passengers under control thought that this was just a normal hijacking. If you are telling people to keep quiet, and reassuring them that if they keep quiet they'll be all right, you are much more likely to be convincing if you actually believe that to be true.

If they were working on a need-to-know basis, the only people who needed to know about the actual destination of the planes would have been the pilots.

Perhaps Murray Macleod thinks the IRA hunger strikers were probably gay?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:20 PM

Well Mac, I can see how they probably weren't too happy about not eating.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:28 PM

Murray - This has the makings of a best seller. Turn this thread into 12 Chapters and I will be reading a review in the NY Times Review of Books. Good Luck, Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:32 PM

I'm really confused - I thought the lead line asked if the hijackers were gay. Gay being Happy and Content? Perhaps my definition is anachronistic but to pluralise the term would, to me, imply homosexuality.

So if they were happy and content it would further set the field in motion for the theory that flying a plane into a building was a thing that would permit contentment with the situation. Meaning that they were happy campers and heading for the afterlife with blessings from their God.

It is some really good stuff Spaw - too bad you don't get any -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:33 PM

But what would you call it? "Chicken Crap for the Soles"???

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: marty D
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:37 PM

Keep in mind that statistics have shown that 99% of prison inmates under 5'8" will engage in homosexual behaviour if their cell-mate is over 6' tall and in a romantic mood. The other 1% weren't available to fill in the forms.

marty

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:38 PM

"I'm OK; You're Not"

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:42 PM

Peg: You're right; I contradicted myself! My impression, though, is that if the Taliban terrorist was willing to risk sending a farewell letter from the US to his girlfriend in Germany, passion for her must have clouded his better judgment (since he exposed her identity and location!).

McGrath: There was a cockpit recording from one of the jets (I forget which) wherein a Taliban terrorist was making a false announcement to passengers that they would be landing somewhere... I wish I could remember the exact quote. Can anyone provide it?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:47 PM

How about "You're Gay and I'm Not Pleased?"

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:50 PM

Murray: A pretty far-out theory, I think.

An article in today's USA Today reports that a new study performed by a Cornell University psychologist refutes the finds of earlier studies that reported that Gay teens suicide tries were far greater than hetrosexual teens. The followin points were made: 1. More than half of reported suicide attempts turned out to be "thinking about it" rather than trying anything.

2. Nearly all research on the topic has drawn teens from support grooups or shelters, where the most troubled gather, and taken at face value their claims of suicide attempts.

There's more.

I think those guys hit the WTC because they were Islamic religious fanatics. McGrath has this one right, I think.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:53 PM

Ah hell Doug, you're not thinking about it! You're only giving in to McGrath because you're French.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:21 PM

Guest Steve, I wasn't suggesting that all military minds think like the 9/11 hijackers. I was stating a well known fact: the age of conscription is always very young for a number of well known reasons, including the fact that young minds are more easily brainwashed/"trained" than older ones. As we mature, we begin to question the infallibility authoritary figures try to cloak themselves in, and to function more according to our own personal moral compasses, and less according to those of our parents and other social, cultural, and religious authority figures.

I maintain that we do have instances in Western culture of martyrdom for the cause which resonate with those "ideals" in warrior societies around the world. Including the present day US and UK armed forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:27 PM

I'm with the consensus on this one; no offense intended, Murray, but this is one of the more ludicrous theories I've heard about the 9/11 attacks. I don't know whether all, some or none of the hijackers were gay, but I don't think it really makes a damn bit of difference. It certainly doesn't seem to me that there is any reason to believe that homosexuality was a motivating factor.

Murray, I believe you when you say that your intentions aren't homophobic. But the theory, taken to its logical conclusion, would tend to suggest that homosexuals are more likely to engage in acts of mass murder/suicide than heterosexuals. Given that, I would not advance a theory like this without a MUCH stronger basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:40 PM

I think our unnamed guest is correct in much of what he or she says. The age of conscription does indeed tend to be fairly young, but I don't think it's primarily because of the susceptibility of young minds to brainwashing. Young men (I'm not being sexist here, but most soldiers are men) are more physically fit that old men. There's a lot an 18-year-old can do on a battlefield that a 43-year-old like me would have trouble with, even if I were convinced (through logic or brainwashing) of the correctness of the endeavor.

As for the married vs. single question, it doesn't only apply to suicide missions, but to any mission where the individual will be put in harm's way. Those of us with wives and children tend to be more risk-averse than young single men. This is pretty well established and recognized in military circles, and I believe there are rules in place in a lot of militaries that prohibit membership in high-risk commando units by married men.

Don't bogart that joint, Spaw; pass it over to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:48 PM

Why do you think you'll ever get a "satisfactory answer" as to why these guys did this? Beyond eating, sleeping, and you know what, it is pretty hard to figure why anyone does anything--

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:51 PM

Not me and McGrath, GUEST!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:35 PM

Well, Murray, to balance out your very interesting theory - I've also read that one of the three men who had the balls to take action against the hijackers, causing that plane to crash in Pennsylvania, was gay!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:08 PM

Oh dear - now we have happy campers on both sides of this issue -

As a Platoon Sgt. I'd say to the young men "On line assault left!" And they would turn left and charge - shooting at anything in their path.

As I grow older I imagine me and my buddies saying - "Now just a minute there Sarg - couldn't we get the Air Force to come and soften them up a bit? I also happen to know there is an artillery unit doing nothing somewhere that could place some heat on this for us. Those artillery guys don't do squat anyhow. Leave it to us Legs to do all the frickin work and get our asses shot off. You know Sarg - until those lazy assholes get with the program we are going to wait here and make sure those bad guys don't try to escape this way."

Heh heh heh

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:59 PM

well...murray...the size of your ego has once more astounded me....it amazes me that you can get through the door with that head of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:09 PM

OK, where do we start?

Fortunately, Guest Ohmygawd, I was lucky enough to have resolved any deep seated sexual identity problems at the age of sixteen.

I kind of go along with the Robert Plant school of thought, when he said in an interview many years ago "Yeah, I'd like to be gay, but I just have too much to offer to women". However this does not stop me doing an annual drag act each Halloween at our local music venue, the Main Street Café in Homestead FL. And I enjoy it! So, apparently, do the patrons.

I digress, however . I feel that you are all missing my point which is that religious fanaticism alone does not drive a man to commit suicide for any cause. We have to look for other factors. Mental illness could be a factor, or as I wrote earlier , the shame of being a homosexual in a fundamentalist Islamic environment.

And I was not suggesting that these men committed suicide because they were deeply depressed, I am putting forward a hypothesis that they could have been offered some sort of redemption deal by their fundamentalist Islamic masters. "Go destroy the World Trade Center and your place in Paradise is secure, despite your filthy sodomizing". That sort of thing.

And since none of us knows anything whatsoever about homosexuality in Islamic countries, (although I intend to explore Jim Dixon's links) then my postulate still is valid.

Let me state it one more time. I do not "believe" that the hijackers were gay. I do not "know" whether they were gay or straight. Neither does anyone else. I am simply putting forward a hypothesis which may or may not go some way to ezplaining the actions of these disturbed individuals.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:11 PM

I assume you are referring to the one between his shoulders, Amergin. :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:12 PM

Nat , sorry I posted before reading your kind words.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:36 PM

my apologies, Murray....taking my ire out on you...

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:36 PM

The principle of Occam's Razor is relevant here. Which essentially is that if you can explain something without bringing in fresh assumptions, you don't bring them in. (That link gives a lengthier and more erudite explanation.)

Doing something in war that you know is very likely, or even virtually certain to get you killed just isn't an unusual behaviour. Nor is doing something which you know is going to result in the death of a lot of innocent people, and thinking that you are justified in doing it.

Every bomber crew in the Second World War did both those things. The point I'm making isn't that the hijackers and the bomb crews were essentially the same, because there were very important differences. But the thing they had in common was the very thing that it is being suggested requires some exotic explanation. It didn't - it just meant that they thought that their cause was more important than the survival of themselves or the people they were going to kill.

And if you're going for exotic explanations I think the Planet Zog one has more going for it. It's more exotic anyway.

(And if Doug and me are agreed on something, we have to be right.)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:46 PM

A online review of one of the books Jim links to above is informative

Put aside the homophilism and the jargon, both of which are a bit strong, and what's left is a fascinating and eye-opening book about a topic much hinted at but little considered systematically. The authors not only have the benefit of knowing homosexuality in many other societies but are well grounded in matters Islamic. Despite the title, they deal predominantly with men; lesbians are little known about.

As with so much else in the sexual realm, Islamic norms differ profoundly from Western ones. The authors establish several points: (1) Islam treats homosexuality far less harshly than does Judaism or Christianity. (2) Sex between men results in part from the segregation of women and in part from the poetic and folk heritage holding that the penetration of a pretty boy is the ultimate in sexual delight. (3) Sex between men is 'frowned upon, but accepted' so long as the participants also marry and have children; and also if they keep quiet about this activity. (4) The key distinction is not hetero- vs. homosexual but active vs. passive; men are expected to seek penetration (with wives, prostitutes, males, animals); the only real shame is attached to serving in the female role. (5) Youths usually serve in the female role and can leave behind this shame by graduating to the male role. (6) The great Muslim emphasis on family life renders homosexuality far less threatening to Muslim societies than to Western ones (Muslim men seeking formally to marry each other remains unimaginable).

In the most startling parts of Islamic Homosexualities, Murray and Roscoe re-interpret important historical developments through the prism of male sex among Muslims. For example, they make a plausible case that sexual attraction was a significant impetus for the development of military slavery throughout the Muslim world. Less persuasively, they speculate that the relaxed Muslim attitude on this subject incited medieval European hostility to homosexuality as a way for those otherwise backward peoples to 'feel superior' to Muslims.

Middle East Quarterly, June 1997

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:40 PM

Murray, you said "I feel that you are all missing my point which is that religious fanaticism alone does not drive a man to commit suicide for any cause."

Er...Jim Jones? Waco?
It may come down to whatever leads someone to be a religious fanatic that is the mental illness. They find something they think is worth dying for and then make it happen. Many people have things in their lives they believe are worth dying (or killing, for that matter) for. With most folks, it's that thing that's the reason, and love is usually at the heart of it. For many fanatics, religious or otherwise, it seems they're just trying to make their lives mean something - to be remembered. To shout "I am" to the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:53 PM

Many people have things in their lives they believe are worth dying (or killing, for that matter) for. With most folks, it's that thing that's the reason, and love is usually at the heart of it.

Include me in Jeri, there is no dispute here. I personally would be prepared to put my life on the line to save my children. And kill to save them. As any parent would.

The US Marines in Afghanistan at present (and the British and French troops as well) are risking their lives for something which, one must assume , they believe in.

But there is a HUGE difference between putting your life at risk for a cause in which you believe, and embarking on a suicide mission which you KNOW will lead to your demise.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:08 AM

What? you never heard of Nathan Hale, Colin Kelly, Rodger Young. King Leonidas of Sparta (Thermopylae) and his 900 other soldiers, Martyrs all, and suicides all.

And, the great Belisarius, who with his 200 houshold guards and 250 barbarian mercenaries, thought they were committing suiocide to give the emperor Justinian time to escape (the Nika rebellion in Constantinople) but instead caused the 10,000 rebels to panic and turn on eachother leaving Belisarius and 450 would be suicides for a cause and very surprised Roman soldiers looking at 10,000dead rebels.

And what about, "Todd" and the others who stopped the 4th Airliner, the one headed for D.C. who said "The Lord's Prayer", "Let's Roll" and jumped on a terrorist with a bomb strapped to hims knowing that he was committing suicide.

and, Oh! Yes, JESUS CHRIST.

And, who gives a shit, anyway, if the terrorists were gay?

And, Murray, this includes you, no one knows until the moment for action comes, whether or not they are willing to die for a cause.

I forgot, for the moment, that you're a Britt and probably never HAVE heard of the first batch of names, so allow me to mention "The Light Brigade" General Gordon and all of your parents and grandparents who stood alone against Adolph Hitler between 1939 and Dec. 1941 (when Colin Kelly died to save his crew) and thought that they very well might be committing suicide for the cause of freedom, for which I am eternally grateful.

Ah yes, the Wolfendon Report, in addition to decriminalizing homosexuality, chased all the "Ladies of the Night" away from the statue of Eros at Picadilly and indoors, over the strenuous objections of the Metropolitan Police and the CID who had been using the girls as informants and getting much help from them in combatting crime. I was stationed at RAF Lakenheath at the time and hung out (with my guitar and banjo) in Soho. when this disaster occurred.

Aw Hell, Murray, I've been known to start a row every now and then, myself, including a very controversial thread in the Mudcat. Good on you, Pal.

All the best

Jody Gibson

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:23 AM

I read somewhere they were transvites.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:37 AM

Jody, I do take your points. Many normal people are prepared to face the RISK of dying for a cause. No sane person will willingly face the CERTAINTY of death as the result of their choice of action.

The only parallels to the Sep 11th incidents are the forays of Japanese Kamikaze pilots, and God alone knows what sort of drug-induced euphoria these poor buggers had to experience before doing what they did.

I mean, even if the odds appear to be insuperable, every soldier secretly believes that he is not going to be the one who buys it this time. That is the way the human mind works, at least in the case of normal sentient beings. Sometimes the belief comes true. (My father survived WW II, minus a limb) For three of my uncles, their belief was misplaced.

Once again I cut and paste from my previous post

There is a HUGE difference between putting your life at risk for a cause in which you believe, and embarking on a suicide mission which you KNOW will lead to your demise

And, btw, I DO know that I would lay my life on the line for my kids, if the occasion demanded. I am quite sure that you would do the same.

All the best to you too

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:54 AM

Murray, it seems you are judging other cultures through the looking glass of your own. You are apparently assuming a person is insane to do such a thing. In their cultures, it may not be insane at all, but very noble.

Do you have any evidence of the kamikaze pilots being drugged? How did they fly accurately if so?

Please, please remember not all people of the world look at committing suicide-type missions the way most of the Western world does; there are so many different cultures with their own beliefs and viewpoints.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:15 AM

Kat, I believe that we are all brothers under the skin. Or sisters.

The will to survive is a basic instinct. The abnegation of that instinct requires some sort of pathological transformation of the whole psyche. Maybe this can be achieved by religious belief alone. But I don't buy that for one minute.

Hence my suggestion that kamikaze pilots had to jave been drugged. Any other explanation is just too implausible And let's face it, you didn't have to be Charles Lindbergh in order to steer your prop airplane into a battleship in bright sunxhine. (Ever hear of any night- time kamikaze attacks? Me neither)

But meanwhile, please note that so far I am resisting any temptation to suggest that the kamikaze pilots were gay.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Owlkat
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:41 AM

Wait a second, I'm seeing a pattern here. Of Course! Gay, tainted pork-eating pseudo-married, kamikaze, fundamentalist, muslim, 18 year old men with fantasies about being piratical sodomites! My God(s)! It's all so clear to me now. Why didn't I see it before! We must stop them! Stop them before it's too late. Listen to me! They are here! Don't go to sleep! They take over your bodies when you sleep. You must listen to me! Wait, there's a gay, tainted pork-eating, pseudo-married, kamikaze fundamentalist muslim, 18 year old man with fantasies about being a piratical sodomite living next door, and he just gave me a suitcase to keep for him while he...went out of town to look for prostitutes. I'll just open it and see what's in

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:58 AM

And what was in the suitcase? A bottle of Scotch, a jar of Vaseline and a pack of Trojans.

QED

Je repose ma valise (Exceptionally subtle joke for those with an expensibe education)

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: harpgirl
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:35 AM

Gee Murray. You are saying, if I understand you correctly that laying down one's life for one's children is not insane but for one's religious beliefs or because of homosexuality, is. Another hole in your reasoning is that people who are willing to commit suicide for anything other than their children's lives are insane and you are implying that homosexuals are insane. You also said as I thought might be true, that the Islamic culture doesn't look askance at homosexuality among it's men. If that is true then why would they want to commit suicide because they are gay? I appreciate the inquiry but I think your reasoning has holes in it.

I was taught Occam's razor in my PhD training. The simplist explanation is most likely to be right. I don't know what it is but I would say these Muslim's hate America and what it stands for and that's why they did it. I also think they hate America because they have been taught to believe that our culture is sick and should be annihilated. Whoa, scarey thought...but I doubt that homosexuality made them suicidal and that's why they became terrorists....

Hey, QED, the title of Gertrude Stein's first novel!! She lived a very happy life by the way, in France!!!! Go figure...harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:55 AM

Yes, Harpgirl. And, A rose is a rose is a rose...........

Occam's razor btw has been misquoted several times on Mudcat threads so I am going to give the definitive aphorism here
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

Did I ever say homosexuals were insane? If I did I apologize (profusely) . I do believe that in certain societies( Fundamentalist Islamic societies in particular notwithstanding that book review) and pre-war British society as well, homosexuals were (are) under a huge amount of stress which may weell have caused them to take certain irrational actions. But it is all about the society, not about the individual.

btw We (Rivergrass) are playing the South Florida Fest in Jan. I promise not to make any inflammatory statements on stage ...........................

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:51 AM

"I have pondered the question of why anyone would want to sacrifice their life for a political ideal and until now I have not come up with any satisfactory answers."

Abraham Lincoln, Ben Franklin, George Washington, and every person who fought in the American Revolution. All gay. Boy, this puts a whole new complexion on the reason for freeing America from oppressive British rule! It wasn't to free the population from outside rule and punitive taxes, it was to allow a countrywide homosexual orgy!

Maybe there weren't political reasons after all. Maybe it was the thought of crashing into a pair of big penis-substitutes in the middle of a city which appealed to them. Or maybe they didn't believe they'd crash, and if they were strong in faith then God would let them pass through without injury. Or maybe they thought the shock-waves would pass through the Earth and vibrate the Lottery machines enough to influence all the results and make their relatives rich. I can think up a zillion of these, each more bizarre than the next, and they'll all be as valid as your suggestion, ie. a load of bollocks.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:21 AM

You all seem to overlooking the not so noble reasons why Western governments have been willing to commit much more despicable atrocities in our name for centuries--greed and lust for power.

Remember--older men with no fear of dying for the cause are the ones who convince young men it is noble to do so, and send them to their death, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:26 AM

How many Murray MacLeods does it take tp change a light bulb?

No Murray MacLeod will change a lightbulb. Having once inserted a shining new bulb into its intended socket he read the number of hours of illumination it was to give him. He carefully kept account of the number of times he switched that light on and off; he tallied the hours and minutes that bulb glowed for him. When at last it went out he realized that it had not lived up to its potential therefore it had snuffed its interior flame of its own accord and therefore must be gay. He's not homophobic as such but he cannot think why the lightbulb should have committed suicide in such a way. Attempts to suggest that others in the house may have used that light while he was unaware he dismisses because his own tally is accurate and he knows it.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 10:35 AM

Now the Taliban are holed up and ready to give up their lives in Kandahar. Mass suicide. Guess they're all gay. Just like all those folks in Jamestown years ago. I tell ya' Murray, they'e coming in the windows.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:41 AM

Kat: SURPRISE! I agree with you! What a great way to say it!

Murray is viewing the world through a looking glass of his own.

I have done considerable research on WWII, and never have I encountered anything on the written page that suggests that the Japanese pilots were drugged. They flew to their glorious (to them) deaths for the love of the Emperor, and dedication to their country.

It appears to me Murray is attempting to revise a little history.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:42 AM

It is possible, however, that they had a snifter or two of Sake' before they took off.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:46 AM

But there is a HUGE difference between putting your life at risk for a cause in which you believe, and embarking on a suicide mission which you KNOW will lead to your demise.

No there isn't. "I personally would be prepared to put my life on the line to save my children." And so would most people - even if that meant certainty of death.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:54 AM

Hey DougeR!

:-)

Thanks, this must be a red-letter day!

Someone else posted this a while back and it has stuck with me, paraphrased:

There will be world peace when the Power of Love is greater that the Love of Power.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:15 PM

All I can say is that we do now know that the last words heard on all of the black box cockpit voice recorders was the pilots saying a variation of "Get your hand off my thigh." ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:21 PM

"No sane person will willingly face the CERTAINTY of death as the result of their choice of action."

That is the biggest bag of horseshit I've ever read. Any Marine rifleman who has watched a Navy Corpsman go out under fire to save a wounded Marine can tell you that. And read the book "Zero" by Japan's greatest fighter ace - who also happened to go on a suicide mission but couldn't find his target. Drugged? Not at all. How about the Scot's Brigade in WW-I who knowingly stood up and died as a unit in a charge. They had a wake for themselves the night before. How about the Aussies at Gallipoli - they KNEW that when they stood up and moved forward the turks were going to decimate them. How about telling my friend Art Jackson that he is insane, Art earned the Medal of Honor on Peleliu Island during WW-II, and told me he knew he was going to die when he did what he did. He did it out of love. He couldn't stand watching the men in his squad die anymore.

How about the five Black Marines in Viet Nam who rolled onto grenades to save their friends and were subsequently awarded the Medal of Honor. Were they insane?

Until you've been there you don't have a clue how you are going to react. I have an uncle that always said he would be willing to die for his kids. When one of them nearly drowned he sat paralyzed on the shore while my aunt dove in and saved her.

Your Gay hypothesis is one thing - and is something to talk about for what it is - a hypothesis.

But I would suggest you educate yourself about raw courage and the motives people carry when they willingly and KNOWINGLY make the choice to die for their country.

I will apologize for the anger in my posting here - it always pisses me off when people make statements about why men and women choose to die for love.

Especially when they don't know -

And GUEST - old men are afraid to die - that is why they enlist the young to do it for them.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:24 PM

I remember those Buddhist monks that used to set themselves on fire on a fairly regular basis back in the Vietnam war days--and then, there were all those religious heretics during the middle ages, who could have saved themselves from the flames by simply renouncing their faith--and all those christian martyrs during the Roman times, who stood up in public meetings and proclaimed their faith, knowing that guaranteed that they'd be cast to the lions.

Last time I checked, the Christians among us actually admire people who proclaim their faith, knowing that they will die for it--get with the program, Murray!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:51 PM

Don't know if it's true, but I read it on the internet:

"Japanese Kamikaze pilots took Methamphetamine to numb fears prior to suicidally diving their planes into American ships."

http://www.escapemeth.com/addiction.htm

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:02 PM

I too agree with Kat. I think the mistake that many of us make and the one I believe Murray has made is that we try to understand the actions of others by placing their situations in our OWN mindsets. We try to make sense of things within the boundries of our own beliefs and cultures. We can never truly understand what was in the minds of the killers that day. Remember, kids were dancing in the streets that day in celebration of the attacks because of their hatred for the U.S. I can not relate to that type of celebration and I'm pretty sure that most of us can not. But I don't live in that culture, I was not raised with the same beliefs.

Just because you don't understand why someone would do what they did doesn't make them insane or gay or any other "easy" explanation. Hatred is a powerful force. There are a lot of hated folks outside of the middle East including the U.S. To try to understand specifically why, or to understand why they are willing to commit such heinous acts is futile at best. In our culture, it is perhaps easier to understand the retaliation. We may not all agree with how or what but at least we understand the motivation.

Finally, to say that no one would choose certain death for a cause, in my opinion, is to belittle those who have given their lives in the many struggles this country (and others) have had. If you were in the front line of the boat storming the beaches in WWII, you had to believe that you were about to give your life for your country. They did it, they weren't insane, and they were heros....

Just my humble opinion..... Frank

P.S. I have regretfully informed my wife that I am gay. She was not happy about it but when I told her that I would in all likelyhood refuse the services of a prostitute, she understood.....I must be gay. :(

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:06 PM

Ah Pseudolis - I could kiss you - and, anachronistically, I'd be quite "gay" about it. Thank You -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:13 PM

A red letter day alright, kat! :>)

That second "saying" makes an awful lot of sense, of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:20 PM

The pilot/author Norton refers to was Saburo Sakai and although one of Japan's greatest fighter pilots, he became part of the Kamikaze because it was what was expected of him. He was a Samurai with abiding belief in the Bushido code and when the weather forced him to return from his Kamikaze mission, he felt great shame, although his commanding officer and freind was overjoyed to see him and have him back. Shortly after this the high command figured that sending him on a suicide mission wasn't the best use of resources and he went on to shoot down several more aircraft, survivng the war as Japan's leading ace with 63 kills.

The important point here is that Sakai used no drugs, wasn't gay, and the ONLY reason behind his actions came from his beliefs. Somehow I find it disrespectful to those young pilots to imply they did it because of drugs. That's ridiculous. The only reason Sakai lived to tell the tale was because he was trapped in such bad weather that he couldn't find a ship to dive into! A lesser pilot wouldn't have made it back to the base.....but this drug idea is bullshit.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM

Thank you Spaw - I'd kiss you too.

And if anyone thinks that methamphetamines will numb your senses - try it out - another huge slice of bullshit.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:07 PM

Actually the quote rather ambiguously said they used meth to "numb fears," not to "numb senses." It's a peculiar terminology, but your claiming that meth numbing senses is bullshit is something else again. You made up that claim then said it was bullshit. I think, but am not sure, that your further implied conclusion was that the article's claim they used meth at all was therefore also bullshit.

It's easy to grasp the concept of morphine or demarol as inducing a laid back euphoria which would diminish the fear of crashing. It's not so easy to see meth as "numbing fears," although it could make one braver, and certainly more alert and accurate.

Respectfully,

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:15 PM

Hold the kiss Steve.....I don't have the time right now to go hijack an airliner with you.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:39 PM

Well, geez, can I get in line for a kiss? Wait a minute, you guys are all...well, er...guys! Ooooo...hold the kisses, I wouldn't want to tempt you into going straight!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:55 PM

C'mon Kat, take one for the team, eh ?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:03 PM

Pucker up! Peckers down!

Sorry, couldn't resist!!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:07 PM

You say---"an abiding belief in the Bushido code"---or in Christianity or in Judaism or in Islam or in whatever etc. etc. etc.

I say that a person will die for a belief-------------providing that belief isn't quite clear to him (or her).

That's the scary part. Few will think it out before the fact.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:10 PM

I... uh... no... nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:12 PM

LMAO @ katlaughing and gnu!! Bunch of kisses might get parts of us straight.

Dan - Have you ever done meth? Have you ever had it in your system while someone was trying to kill you? Or while you were trying to kill someone? My experience with it was a lot different from what your article presented. As far as the article went I didn't see any reliable resources to back up their claim. I'll take the word of someone who has been there and been highly recognized for the act before someone with a hypothesis.

Matter of fact it was a hypothesis that started this whole thing. Sorry if I bit your head off - when it comes to veterans I am very sensitive - and I don't care who they fought for. But to imply that a country with a code that Japan's warriors were operating under at the end of the war, when they could barely feed themselves, were sharpening stakes to fight off the "American invaders," and reeling under the massive firebombing attacks, is simply to ludicrous for me to give any credit to. I'll take their most decorated pilots word for what they did.

Most respectfully
Steve

Don't need an airliner Spaw - how about a Piper Cub?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:19 PM

Thanks, Steve. Actually I wasn't sure if you were biting my head off or not, so I was just checking. Yes, I've done speed and I can imagine being one helluva kamikaze on it, but no, I have never seen real conflict. I can take your word for it as well as some web page. It didn't strike me as all that outlandish on the face of it, though.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:20 PM

Matter of fact there weren't any resources - just a blanket statement about Hitler's (did you all know it was Hitler that developed the drug?) army and their ability to fight for "days" with the drug - and then a quickie about Kamikaze Pilots. Kind of had to dig for that didn't they?

Sorry - still not buying it -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:23 PM

LOL - I read all articles with a cocked eye - one can make them say anything - and they didn't even miss a pace when they threw it in -

Not a problem Dan - Nice to meet you by the way -

Think we killed this thread yet????

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:44 PM

No, but if we fly the Piper into it there's a chance.

Kiss me fool!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:06 PM

ummm...Murray...*grin*....here is a copy & paste from another site on William of Occam (various articles cited, then:
"The force of these articles is to emphasise that Ockham (a) is not recorded as having, and (b) wouldn't have, said `Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem' (Don't multiply entities except by necessity). He did say `Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitas' (plurality shouldn't be posited without necessity). Similar forms are found in the writings of his teacher Duns Scotus (c1266-1308)[1]. "

mine was 'slightly' wrong, but was from memory from 30 years ago...I got it from one of my first Phil. classes, and the prof. was NOT one to get those things wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:19 PM

Bene vedire, bene esse (spelling ? anyone ?). That's all the Latin I know, save for the legal shit. Meaning, in my interpretation, "If it looks good, it must be good." We used use this as our motto when I was doing a Masters in Transportation Engineering.

It's quite akin to the subject of this thread.

Essentially, postulate and "prove" and hope nobody refutes. If you make it look good (or complicated) enough, nobody will oppose it. We use to fill the appendices with reams of paper from the computer room floor which had nothing to do with the hypothesis... not with engineering papers, of course... only with the papers we had to do for the Economics or Business faculties. Great fun over a few beers at the Faculty Lounge on Friday night.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:38 PM

Hey Steve, I don't think the Piper will do it. Warm up that clapped out 727 and let's have a go. Once Bill and Gnu get going we could be in real trouble.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: heric
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 07:00 PM

I don't think you need to worry about gnu. I just got a photo here over the wires showing a news item of the Newfie terrorist attack on Toronto. It shows a hang glider heading straight into that tower, whatever it's called. ("Death Toll: 1.") It's a good picture but I can't post it.

Guest Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:11 PM

Methamphetamine, more commonly referred to at the time by the trade name Benzedrine, was officially issued to troops on both sides in World War II, with, as I understand it, the most extensive use being in American units. The main object being to keep people awake and alert and so forth, for a crucial limited period.

I've never heard that it's any use for stopping people being scared. Might help you keep going even if you were scared, but that's a different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:26 PM

I saw reference to that, too, McGrath. I also saw references, at other sites, that it has originally been invented by the Koreans and one other site said the Japanese, in 1912, but there was nothing to substantiate the claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 01:35 AM

were the hijackers GAY?

well, no, I'd say they were very GRIM!

sometimes I wonder what some of the threads here have to do with music folk or blues but if there is a need to examine this subject...??? sign me:

Muddled in Missouri

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 07:23 AM

Dan Kelly... By any chance, are you an Industrial Engineer with the provincial government of Nova Scotia ?

VERYcuriousgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: heric
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 10:13 AM

Close, Mr. Gnu. I'm in San Diego. I just got the impression you were from Newfoundland in that "hugs" thread yesterday.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:06 PM

Homo or hetero, I think they were all terribly sexually repressed and that this should be a lesson to all of us not to bottle up those essential energies. The more we make people feel guilty and dirty about sex, and the more we remove normal channels for sensual sexual expression (not just furtive episodes of getting off), the weirder human beings, especially male human beings, get.

Think how much more fun we'd all be having these days if those boys had been able to spend some quality time saying that special prayer we all love so much, "Oh God, Oh God, ohgodohgodohgod, ooooooohhhhhhh...."

--Dr. Roof

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 01:54 PM

At the risk of turning this thread serious again :-

"Dulce et dulchoram est, pro patria morie" ???

or

"what better way to die, than facing fearfull odds,
for the ashes or our fathers, and the temples of our Gods"

Please excuse my bad latin and quotes.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 02:14 PM

Then out spake brave Horatius,
The Captain of the Gate:
``To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his gods,
"(Lays of Ancient Rome - stanza XXVII)

By that Victorian Klingon poet Macaulay. Those aren't the things I'd die for, but I hope there are some things. And I hope it'll never come to that.

But what I can't imagine is looking a bunch of harmless strangers in the eye, and wiping them out along with me. In principle it's no different from dropping a bomb on them from a great height, and any all kinds of people seem to manage to get their heads round that. "Collateral danage" has been the preferred term, though I get the impression it's fallen out of favour since Timothy McVeigh adopted it - but I think most peiple would find the human reality of it somehow feels different.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 03:39 PM

Thank you Kevin, it's note a bad quote from memopry tho'

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 05:07 PM

WyoooooooooooWoman !!! Go girl !!! Thanks for the belly laugh. Excellent !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 07:44 PM

Thenkyew, thenkyew very much...

McGrath, I've wondered myself what must have been going on in their minds as they looked around the plane at all the people they were getting ready to snuff out. Did they have a moment's hesitation? Did they feel any sympathy at all, or were they so completely convinced that everyone on that plane was infidel that they were just ready to get the deed done and explode right through the pearly gates to be among the Chosen?

Interesting, one of the things they apparently were looking forward to was being served and attended to by celestial virgins. Too bad they couldn't just have allowed themselves to be cared for by a couple of cocktail waitresses in the actual, physical realm ... what a big, fat, hairy bummer if you go to all that trouble and then find yourself on the Other Side with Allah all in a lather because you completely ignored His "Don't Kill" rule ...

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 01:29 AM

The thread seemeth to liveth another dayeth -

WW - I have much more enjoyed the OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHH BABYYYYYYYYYYYYY - than the "Adjust fire to . ....."

You made more sense than the rest of us put together -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 12:23 PM

Why, thankee kindly, sir. I tend to be of the "cut to the chase" school ... which sometimes makes me dubious company, I suppose, although I do try to watch myself in polite society.

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 12:48 PM

Re: your posting before last Mi'Lady Wyo, I offer THIS:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/hijackers_surprised.html

(though it has been posted here before, & sorry, I havent got the knack of clickies yet.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: heric
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 12:53 PM

Well, since the thread won't die, I've got a bit of trivia: Short version: You can throw "SITE:.edu" in and get ONLY .edu sites.

Of course you should all know that already, anyway. This restricter could be useful: e.g. .gov, or .au or .uk, etc.

Long version: If you throw "kamikaze methamphetamine" into google, you gets lots of references to the assertion, and no legitimate citations. (A kind of urban legend phenomenon.) So I was wondering if there was a way to skew the search towards more "reputable" sites, and tried starting the query with ".edu" But that doesn't help: google ignores it because it is too common. (Still no legitimate citations on the drug thing, though.)

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 05:13 PM

WW... I said, "Go girl !!!", and you did ! Excellent. Another good laugh.

Excuse my ignorance, but, if Allah was in a huff, what punishment could they receive in the afterlife ?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 06:45 PM

Unh ... they could be sent back as women under the Taliban?

Yes, Cookieless, the Onion is one of my regular bookmarks. I have to say their logo for the attack was the most emotionally honest of all the media logos. And the "God Angrily Clarifies 'Don't Kill' Rule" was absolutely brilliant. Probably because I absolutely agree ...

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,a Sun Reader (NOT)
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 05:39 AM

John from Hull Can we dispell the myth you propagate about the Sun.
It is a COMIC

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:03 PM

WyoWoman: I like your spunk! Yessiree, Babe, you got it!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 02:23 PM

I've been offline for a few days, so didn't see where this thread was going. Murray suggests that you'd have to be insane to do something for your faith that you know for sure will lead to your death. We should remember that to a truly religious person in either Christianity or Islam, death is not the end of existence. The afterlife is not only there, but much more important than this life. People have already pointed out Christian martyrs, beginning with Jesus. There are sects of Christianity active today who, for example, will not accept blood transfusions because they believe it will pollute them with spirits--they will essentially become possessed.

If you accept the premises of this belief, namely that spirits or souls exist, that a portion or remnant of the soul can inhabit the blood, and that it is better to die and go to heaven than become possessed and ultimately go to hell, then the practice of not accepting transfusions--EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL DIE--is perfectly rational. Where is the insanity? In the beliefs themselves? Are you saying that Islamic or Christian beliefs are in themselves insane? If not, why is acting on those beliefs insane? Furthermore, for adherents of these sects, it would be insane to accept a transfusion, knowing that it will damn you to hell.

My point is that the claim of insanity is ethnocentric in this case, and can only be valid for someone who does not share the religious beliefs of the ones being labelled insane. Furthermore, "Insane" is not a diagnosis like "Liver Cancer." The concept of insanity itself is culturally conditioned, and one group's madman may be another group's shaman.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Mary bee
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 03:01 PM

yeah thanks Steve!! Stay off line for a few more days will you

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Mary bee
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 03:03 PM

Folk music anyone???

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 04:43 PM

Kidnapping 60 innocent people and flying them into a building occupied by still more innocent people is insane. If your spirtual advisor counsels you to do so, he is also insane and so on.

BTW. That blood thing is pretty whacky as well. Not neary as insane but certianly rather arbitrary and counter survival.

I'll grant you that a person can in the name of religion do rational things which do not appear to be rational. I just don't think that the events of Sept. 11, 2001 qualify.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 09:48 PM

...your Gertrude Stein quote would only impress me, Murray if you knew the rest of the great poem "Sacred Emily,"...or what "having a cow" really meant!!!

By the way, how can you live thirty years in Edinburgh and one in Homestead ,Florida and call yourself a "cracker?"

Who else is in Rivergrass? If you come north, let me know. I don't venture into Dade County without a hummvee, and never during hurricane season!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:02 PM

Lord knows where we'd all be if someone -- several someones -- way back when hadn't decided to take risks for their faith, or their personal belief systems, that might result in their deaths. Pledging one's life, fortune and sacred honor for some piece of paper called the Declaration of Independence was pretty wacky ...

BUT ... I still don't much think the Almighty is going to be smiling when them guys paddle they way across the River Styx.

Even though I 'm a way-liberal protestant, I'd love to believe that there's 1.) a hell and 2.) a special corner of it reserved for people who mislead the lonely, the gullible,the misguided and the compulsive conformists into grievous error for the sake of the leader's personal agenda.

And this isn't to say that we (the U.S.A.) are blameless in all our dealings with the rest of the world. Just that history is full of those who create, then manipulate True Believers into devastating wrong.

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:28 PM

Oof! Looks like I was misunderstood. I was not saying the events of Sept 11 were not insane in a philosophical sense. I was merely stating that the people who committed those acts were probably not clinically insane, and that whether we consider them "insane" in a non-clinical sense is a purely cultural decision. Remember that among various groups, it is acceptable to kill a village full of men and then eat their flesh. To claim that all people in those cultures are insane is a cultural judgment, not a diagnosis.

I was arguing against the proposition that allowing yourself to die for your beliefs is necessarily insane. But it is also true that killing for your beliefs is not insane either. People who claim this is insanity are unwilling to face the fact that sane humans do things like this. We have a very clean and pretty view of the world, but the world is not all clean and pretty.

If we accept that, we see that it is not necessary to postualte that these men were both gay and insane, and offered an "out" of this suicide mission to avoid Hellfire. We can accept instead that they belong to a culture (in this case a subculture) where this behavior is culturally sanctioned and acceptable. Under those conditions, sane (and, of course, straight) people will do things like this.

And, mary bee, there's no call to be rude! Your own contributions to this thread haven't exactly been pearls of wisdom...in fact, they haven't been anything at all!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:44 PM

Everybody is insane by somebody else's definition.

Harkening back to the question that started off this thread, however, I have what I think is a better one:

Are pigs offended by English-language editions of "War and Peace"?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:53 PM

Oh ... I thought Mary Bee was acknowledging that you came up with sump'n' smart and worth paying attention to during your sojourn offline...

interpretation is so dicey ...

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 12:12 AM

Exactly, WW.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 12:51 AM

Mary Bee, forgive me! I thought you were saying, "yeah thanks a lot. Now get the hell out of here." But if WyoWoman and Hesperis are right, I've been unjust. Please accept my apology!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:48 AM

Sure, hijacking a plane full of people and using them as a guided missile to kill more people is insane. But so is dropping bopmbs on other people. Crazy stuff.

But that doesn't mean you have to be crazy to do it. You just have to live in a world which is pretty crazy sometimes, and act according to the way that's seen as right and proper.

(And I'm not putting an = mark between the two actions. Or an "equivalent" sign, which I don't know how to do on a typewriter. I'm saying that close up actions that from a distance seem inexplicable can be recognised as only too normal. Sadly so.)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:12 AM

You people here REALLY know how to embarrass yourselves don't you!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:45 AM

Yeah....We often do it by checking on the progress of the war at Killfrog News........if you ain't got a cable modem or DSL Guest, give it time to load........It's barely worth it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:05 AM

ah heck Steve, I'd venture to say that only the MALES were insane. The females want to be liberated from all that male insanity!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:31 AM

I got news for ya', harp....EVERYTHING that's bad in this world ain't a matter of flawed male attitudes and raging testosterone...*grin*...and if it were, what would you propose we do about it? Mass creation of counter-tenors? (Seems as though they ain't gonna allow cloning anytime soon, so you can't create a totally female society)....

signed...'ol Bill, a 'reasonable' male, who actually knows a few more

(thread creep?...who?, us?)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:32 AM

You're probably right at that, harpgirl. At least in the case of Moslem fundamentalist subcultures. I'm not as sure about cannibal groups, though....ain't done the research to say!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:32 AM

Do you think that they have 70 male virgins in Paradise? Did the good Allah provide for this?

Interesting that Al Quaida, Taliban (btw many of the members use eye makeup) and other extremist Islamists have an asexual attitude toward women. It's a man's world.

Wonder about bin Laden? He might be gay.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:38 AM

ah gee, Billy...you must know this is only a HYPOTHESIS!!! We could test it by having men all over the world STOP RUNNING THINGS for about a year and let us take over and see how we do....Whatta ya say????

harpoontang

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 01:35 PM

sure, harpy..I'm willing...it you got a list of competent women, put 'em up...I'll vote for 'em!(I PRAYED (as much as I pray for anything) for Barbara Jordan to get well and run for president!)

the problem is, there are women out there with bad attitudes and worse ideas, just like men....I ain't gonna let them take over JUST because they are female. The one thing I would hope is that a group of GOOD women might settle some things with less posturing and violence....but remember, they would still have men to deal with....(you SURE you want this job?)

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 03:12 PM

If anyone is under the impression that suicide bonbers are always men, just read up on the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 04:04 PM

Funny, Steve, I read Mary Bee's post just as you did. I'd never spar with WW and Hespris though. My arms are too short to box with God, and I know they ain't long enough to take on those two, too!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 09:27 PM

Too true, Doug! When is this flippin' thread going to die...or at least have the decency to mutate into chapter 2?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 10:08 PM

Thanks Doug. The beginning of wisdom ...

Welp, LH, I'd jump us to another thread if I knew how. Surely an elf will bounce through here soon and do the deed ...

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:07 PM

I doubt it WW, too many people with that kind of bright want to see this thread fade away into the sunset as Gene, Roy, Rex, Jimmy, Tex, Hoppy, Buck, and Hoot did in all of their movies. "Ridin' down the canyon just to watch the sun go down, a picture that no artist 'ere could paint."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 10:46 AM

if they were gay, did they get 70 virgin boys as their reward in heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 01:38 PM

Like athlete's foot, it has returned when least expected...

Keep an eye out for those Osama Bin Lookalikes!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 07:47 PM

Best MudCat thread of 2001...... and most typical of the posting participant's..... thought processes.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 11:01 PM

Glad you like it, GUEST...I've gotta say I can't help but chuckle, myself, every time it appears. It may just be the silliest thread title ever to appear on Mudcat. By the way, you put that apostrophe in the wrong place...there have been a whole bunch of participants on this thread. Can I offer you a refresher course at the WSSBA? Only available in Canada, eh?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 12:37 PM

Murray has a point, in that the Spartans, for instance, fought in pairs of lovers, and when their opponents spied on them and saw them braiding each other's hair, putting on their nicest bracelets and necklaces and oiling each other's bodies and making love, the spies knew that the Spartans were preparing to fight to the death.

On the other hand, it is not necessary to be homosexual - or even to be unmarried or childless - to be prepared for blood sacrifice, and I'm not only talking about the maybe-I'll-survive soldiers of the World Wars. Look at the leaders of the 1916 Rising in Ireland, who knew that in signing the Proclamation of the Republic they were signing their death warrants - all but one married men with children, I think.

No, to die for your country, or your religion, or your ideals, what you need is a strong and perfect faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:05 AM

Yes, they were and Murray MacLeod has now found a mate.