BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job

Subject: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:19 PM

...Moore brought up his lingering questions on 9/11, which are a clear departure from the 'government negligence' picture he painted in his film Fahrenheit 9/11 , released some three years ago.

Moore told reporters, "I've had a number of firefighters tell me over the years and since Fahrenheit 9/11 that they heard these explosions-- that they believe there's MUCH more to the story than we've been told. I don't think the official investigations have told us the complete truth-- they haven't even told us half the truth."...

"I've filmed there before down at the Pentagon-- before 9/11-- there's got to be at least 100 cameras, ringing that building, in the trees, everywhere. They've got that plane coming in with 100 angles. How come with haven't seen the straight-- I'm not talking about stop-action photos, I'm talking about the video. I want to see the video; I want to see 100 videos that exist of this," Moore said....

He went on to imply the implausibility of a pilot executing the flight pattern of the flight that allegedly hit the Pentagon.

"Why don't they want us to see that plane coming into the building? Because, if you know anything about flying a plane, when you're going 500 miles per hour, if you're off by that much, you're in the river. So, they hit a building that's only 5 stories high...[unclear] that expertly. I believe that there will be answers in that video tape and we should demand that that tape is released."

Michael Moore was not vague or bashful in discussing 9/11 truth-- rather, he demanded a "new investigation before we get too far away from this-- to find out the whole truth."

This is a huge development in public figures going public with 9/11 questions-- particularly on the part of 'liberals' and others who identify with the 'left.' Despite overwhelming discontent with the Bush Administration, many such voices dismiss the importance of investigating 9/11 or simply decline to discuss any outstanding questions or relevant evidence. Noam Chomsky, for one, suggested that it "wouldn't matter" even if 9/11 had been hatched from a government plot.

Will the mainstream media continue to ignore the fact that the official story on 9/11 is all but dead, and more and more figures are coming forth to demand the truth?

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/moore_911_could_be_inside_job.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:25 PM

And in a related story, a man with high level security clearance, who was inside WTC 7, said a bomb went off inside the building:

It was at this point that he witnessed a bomb going off inside the building:

"We subsequently went to the stairwell and were going down the stairs, when we reached the sixth floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way, there was an explosion and the landing gave way. I was left there hanging, I had to climb back up and now had to walk back up to the eighth floor. After getting to the eighth floor everything was dark."

The individual in a second clip detailed hearing further explosions and then described what he saw when he got down to the lobby:

"It was totally destroyed, it looked like King Kong had been through it and stepped on it and it was so destroyed i didn't know where I was. It was so destroyed that had to take me out through a hole in the wall, a makeshift hole I believe the fire department made to get me out."

He was then told by firefighters to get twenty blocks away from the area because explosions were going off all over the World Trade Center complex.

The key to this information is that the individual testifies this all happened BEFORE either tower collapsed, thus building 7 was at that point completely undamaged from any falling debris or resulting fires. It also means that explosions were witnessed in WTC7 up to eight hours before its collapse at around 5.30pm.

listen to the clips here.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/wtc_7_security_official_details_explosions_inside_building.htm

I believe they said this man's identity will be revealed when the new Loose Change movie is released. He doesn't want the harrassment now and then later when the movie comes out, so he's withheld his name for the time being.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:28 PM

Noel, noel . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:33 PM

They're ba.a.a.a.a.a.a.ack!

La la la, la la la, la la la...

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 11:02 PM

Michael Moore set off the bombs to hype his next movie. This guy really thinks ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 11:37 PM

If you are unable to comprehend the RIGHT answer, it is very easy to get lost in one of the WRONG answers.

Accept just one false premise and lots of crap follows.

One more time....**They have MANY eyewitnesses who SAW the 767 fly into the Pentagon!** **and they DID find pieces of the plane...and personal possessions of the passengers**...maybe that amateur pilot couldn't do it 8 times out of 10, but he got lucky once.

If I am in a building that's on fire and about to collapse, and I hear loud bangs and see things fall apart, I am NOT in a position to evaluate the precise cause of the noises.....

You have to accept so many implausible 'facts' to make those building collapses into 'an inside job' that you might as well just let Hollywood make a movie of it all, and then nod wisely at the accuracy.

You probably think the car chase in "The French Connection" was done at full speed in one take....

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 11:51 PM

All Moore is asking is to see the video of the plane hitting the Pentagon. He said he was there on a filming project once and saw cameras everywhere. Yet we've never seen film of the plane hitting. The footage exists, because there were so many cameras covering things, and the govt released a few frames of this and that, so just release the film and settle the issue.

The other news is bigger. The man in WTC7 said he saw dead bodies everywhere in the building. In the lobby. The 911 commission report doesn't even mention WTC7. Official govt story is that one person died accidentally when the building collapsed due to being struck by debris from one of the towers. Or no, they mean heating fuel tanks blew up later in the day. And one person died. But this man saw multiple bodies, cops telling him not to look at the bodies as he was rushed out. High level security clearance. Just did face-time with Giuliani. Trusted man. Says many died in WTC7 before the second plane even hit the tower. Big, big, big, big story.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:45 AM

It's a real shame the the government will not mandate any serious investigations, not only into this but into anything that's deserving of a real offical, imparcial investigation that will satisfy the public's need & right to know. It's no wonder that so many are suspect & untrusing. That is the government's fault & problem & it's that that needs addressing.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Grab
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:11 AM

"Cameras everywhere" does not equal "continuous footage". Security cameras usually take a picture a second at most, because otherwise you get swamped with footage. And a jet aircraft travels a significant distance in a second. That's why you only get individual frames - because that's what a security camera system records! Even if there's a feed to the security desk at normal video rates (50 fps), it is hardly ever recorded at that rate.

Also consider where the cameras are facing. Security cameras are mounted up high, facing down. That gives them good coverage of the ground, where people are going to be approaching the cameras from. The purpose of a security camera is to allow the guards to pick up on people trying to break in. But it gives zero coverage of the sky, which is where the plane is coming from.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Grab
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM

Oh, and as for hitting the Pentagon "expertly", it's quite simple - they didn't. Check the pictures, and notice the engines scattered around the field in front of the building. The plane actually hit well in front of the building, but several tons of plane travelling at 500mph doesn't just stop like a dart sticking into a dartboard. It's got stacks of inertia, so it just slid on into the building like a wrecking ball.

Oh, and "dead bodies everywhere" of people working in WTC7, yet no-one reported dead? You don't think at least one of those "dead bodies" might have had friends and family who'd think it was a bit surprising there were no reported casualties in WTC7? Or has everyone been "silenced" by "Them"?

As for the idea that WTC7 must have been the result of explosives because other surrounding buildings weren't damaged, I quote Wikipedia's summary:-

"The entire WTC complex was destroyed on September 11, 2001, and many of the surrounding buildings were also either damaged or destroyed as the towers fell. 5 WTC suffered a large fire and a partial collapse of its steel structure.

Other buildings destroyed include St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, Marriott World Trade Center (Marriott Hotel 3 WTC), South Plaza (4 WTC), and U.S. Customs (6 WTC). The World Financial Center buildings, 90 West Street, and 130 Cedar Street suffered fires. The Deutsche Bank Building, Verizon, and World Financial Center 3 suffered impact damage from the towers' collapse, as did 90 West Street. One Liberty Plaza survived structurally intact but sustained surface damage including shattered windows. 30 West Broadway was damaged by the collapse of 7 WTC. The Deutsche Bank Building, known through images of it being covered in a large black 'shroud' after September 11 to cover the building's damage, is currently being deconstructed[49] because of water, mold, and other severe damage caused by the neighboring towers' collapse."

In other words, WTC7 was merely the most prominent of several surrounding buildings which were trashed by the collapse.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:54 AM

People will wiggle and twist so far in any direction to support their already existing opinion on anything that it's just ludicrous.

Almost every post on this thread is ample proof of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Grab
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:58 AM

PS. Quick calculation - 500mph = 220 metres per second. Let's say your camera has a 20-metre field of vision, which is about average from what I've seen of security cameras. The plane will cover that in 0.09s.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:49 AM

Thank you Grab for describing what the video cameras showed. Where'd you see those videos, by the way?

And the plane didn't hit the ground on the way to the Pentagon. There was no trenching. Nothing. Reporters commented on it. A few light poles knocked over, then a 9 foot hole in the pentagon. Those people searching the grounds for parts immediately afterwards were walking on smooth grass.

As far as the bodies in WTC7, there were lots of "missing" on that day. Anyone could have hid anything in the complex that day.

And don't you know by now that Wikipedia's a DISinformation source? Answers.com, the Urban Legends site, Wikipedia--they're used to discredit and misdirect. What happened to bldgs 5 & 6 is that they burned for days and didn't fall. Infinitely more damage to them than to WTC7, which had a corner damaged by a little falling debris. Then WTC7 falls in on itself in a perfectly controlled demolition. That film is out there in abundance. And the explosion described by the high-level official occurred early, before the second plane hit. Wasn't any kerosene tanks or any of the half-dozen other things the NIST report blamed for bringing down WTC7.

YOU had better start worrying about "Them" because they ran a drill on 9/11 of planes flying into the WTC bldgs, and then...IT HAPPENED! Son of a gun. Those musket shooters in Afghanistan pulled a fast one...got NORAD to stand down, did trick flying, did 3 perfect demolitions...ain't we a bunch of fuck-ups.

Here's how "them" operate. The G8 summit a couple of weeks ago. Leaders of the world's 8 largest economic powers (become symbolic as corporations surplant nations around the world). But GWBush attended the G8 summit, and one day he had a stomach ache. Missed a meeting:

...Sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa that US security men tested German security by trying to smuggle C4 plastic explosive past a checkpoint at Heiligendamm.

German surveillance machinery detected the tiny stash in a suitcase in a car and the Americans in plainclothes then identified themselves. German police declined comment.

http://www.eux.tv/article.aspx?articleId=9424

Take out 7 of the G8, and you just have to reorganize things, don't you? Halliburton and British Petroleum have to step in and create a "safer" world.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ythanside
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:37 PM

'Those people searching the grounds for parts immediately afterwards were walking on smooth grass.'

Smooth grass, hmmmm. Heard that somewhere before. Now, let me think. Damn, got it! Jeez, this is really, really BIG. Listen to this. Smooth grass, grass, grassy knoll, it all adds up, don't you see?   






NOPE!

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 11:33 PM

Michael Moore just wants to see the video tapes of the planes. No biggie. Just show the tapes.

And why do people feel they have to defend the government's 9/11 conspiracy theory of 19 men with boxcutters, anyway? I mean, what's in it for those of you who, personally, defend the govt's absurd lie?

I should have mentioned at the top that the link goes to a video clip of Moore saying those things. Just before he talks, communist whore Amy Goodman pisses herself when confronted by the same reporters Moore talked to. So you have two top liberals, Goodman and Moore, and one finally gets tired of the bullshit and speaks a bit of his mind. Goodman still sees her job as what it's always been, to lie and deceive, but Moore realized who the crew with the camera was, how much more powerful the internet has become than traditional media, and he makes his breakthrough statement to a 20 year old man with an internet hookup. Meanwhile, NPR dinosaur Goodman goes about her good little bootlicking chores supporting the lies of the mass murderers of 9/11. She's still buying the lie that she'll have a place in the organization once the riff raff is purged. But it seems Moore has finally admitted the truth to himself. Once the psychopaths in our positions of power get complete control over us, his ass is on the night train to oblivion, and he knows it. So he speaks out. Good for him.

Let's see...I made a mistake in my math, too. They should quit calling it the G8. President of the European Commission José Manuel Durão Barroso was at the conference, so that makes 9 heads of state, even though the EU isn't really a state, is it? It was voted down. No matter, the bosses of the world just invited Barroso to the meeting anyway, so if the CIA plan had worked, that C4 explosive would have taken out 8 majesterial supreme pooh-bahs while GW conveniently had a gastric problem.

If all had gone according to plan, the people killed in the blast would have been President of the European Commission José Manuel Durão Barroso, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain, President Vladimir Putin of Russia, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe of Japan, Prime Minister Romano Prodi of Italy, Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, and Prime Minister Stephen Harper of Canada. Al Qeada would have been blamed, no doubt (probably operating out of Iran), and as I type this tonight the world would have been a vastly different place.

See, you HAVE to keep the govt honest or they go and blow up OTHER things.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:09 AM

Explosions do not necessarily = bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:26 AM

It's the sattelites; and now that UK is going fully digital, there will be no protection. (Mental note: Must buy tinfoil).

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Grab
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM

Don't know why I bother. OK, that's my last 9/11 post.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 09:30 AM

I want to see tapes of Santa Claus. There are so many security cameras out there, surely someone has captured his image going down a chimne or hitching up the reindeer. Why won't they let us see these tapes?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

Michael Moore is a jerk who, having exhausted the possibilities of his current audience, is looking for a new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

IMHO, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:22 AM

I don't think Michael Moore is a jerk, and I think he is asking some very important questions. His documentaries have exposed some serious issues and helped this country question the ravings of the madman in the White House.

The thing is, you can't jump to conclusions or make assumptions that require accepting a theory as the truth. Some people seem to feed on celebrity and grasp every innuendo as the gospel truth to justify their perspective.   Our one-trick pony Guest seems to have a history of such behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Becca72
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:03 PM

Michael Moore knows as much about 9/11 as Oliver Stone does about the Kennedy assassination.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:21 PM

Yeah, Becca...both of which probably involved coverups at a very high level...

The conventional mind simply doesn't want to know. It would always rather just believe whatever lies Big Brother tells it by way of the mainstream media, and go have another cheeseburger at the mall or rent another video and plunk down in front of the tube.

"Please don't bother me. I want to remain comfortably aneasthetized in my little tiny world of consumption here. It's far less painful than asking questions which might result in disturbing answers being found. And anyway, I'm helpless to do anything about it. Please just don't bother me. Please just stop talking about that and go away. You can't possibly be right. If you were, I'd have no sense of security left, and that is a thought I simply cannot bear."

p.s. - It is so fucking obvious that other shots were fired at Kennedy...from in front of the motorcade...rather than just shots from the book depository to the rear...and that one of those shots from in front blew out the back of Kennedy's head as it exited...there were so many eyewitnesses who said so....JEEZUS!!!

All you have to do is read into it some. But no, you'd rather just believe the Warren Commission's laundered version of what happened. Well, la-de-da...your choice appears to be that igorance is bliss. I guess you must be really quite happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:31 PM

"No biggie. Just show the tapes."

For the last time: There are no "TAPES" or "VIDEOS"...there are still frames from ONE security camera, which shows a blank, then a fireball. The confounded plane, just to spite us, passed that lone security camera BETWEEN frames. (Probably a secondary plot!)

But they have **eyewitnesses** ...average people...who SAW the plane. Some thought they were gonna be hit by it.

I found that page in 3 seconds....I doubt if you even looked for it, it wouldn't do to find anything that weakens your conspiracy theory, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:41 PM

an even better eyewitness page

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:45 PM

"It is so fucking obvious that other shots were fired at Kennedy
...
All you have to do is read into it some"

Those two statements define exactly what the problems are with these issues.

It is NOT fucking obvious, otherwise there would be universal agreement. THAT is what causes people to consider other options.

The fact that you can "read into it" opens up elements of doubt AND interjects the author and readers preconceived notions.   It is hard to find anyone with a truly open mind. The "consipiricists" seem to latch onto whatever is supporting their wish to have an alternate reason, and that clouds their ability to really consider all views.   The "anti-conspiracists" work exactly the opposite. They consider the source and look for ways to knock it down.

JEEZUS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

This is a big story that will, for starters, kill Giuliani's presidential aspirations. Giuliani's dad was a mob boss who served time, and the boy grew up to run the organization from inside the justice system. Now he wants to run the country. Giuliani's complicity in 9/11 will be revealed now because of Michael Moore's recent statements. That, at a minimum, is what will come of this.

I believe that Giuliani, like GWBush, wasn't informed beforehand of what was going to happen on 9/11. That's why they both mis-spoke about 9/11 later and why both had that deer-in-the-headlights look on the day. But both were involved in the crime of the coverup, so that makes them complicit in a capital crime. If there is any justice in the world, we'll see them tried and executed, along with the others involved in the coverup and in the execution of the crime itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Becca72
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

Gza, I gave no opinion of my own on either Kennedy or 9/11. The only opinion I'm offering here is that both MOVIE DIRECTORS made up whatever story they thought would get asses in theatre seats. Neither is an historian. They are movie directors. Why should I trust Michael Moore any more than I would his republican counterpart? Democrats don't lie? HUH! yeah right. None of them can be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:55 PM

"I believe that Giuliani, like GWBush, ...blah, blah..etc."

Yeah...we are aware that you 'believe' a lot of off-the-wall stuff.
People can 'believe' that the Earth is flat and only 5000 years old....

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:58 PM

"It is hard to find anyone with a truly open mind."

I'm fully in agreement with you on that, Ron. It's almost impossible to find anyone with a truly open mind. People's impression of anything or anyone is usually formed quite early and very quickly...after that, they simply devote further efforts to solidifying and defending their first impression.

My impression, from watching the Zapruder film, and from the comments of numerous eyewitnesses in Dealy Plaza on that day, is that some of the shots (not all of the shots) were fired from in front of the motorcade, from the grassy knoll area, and that one of those shots from the front blew out the back of Mr Kennedy's head as it exited. And yes, it does seem totally obvious...to me.

If it doesn't to you, well, there's nothing I can do about that, because you have formed a different initial impression about it for whatever reason (and I'll never really know what your reasons are for the impression you have formed). My thoughts are as opaque to you as yours are to mine. That's the hard thing about human life. We cannot ever know truly what anyone else is thinking...or why...no matter how hard they try to explain it to us.

I have no idea why you find it implausible that someone might have fired shots from in front of Kennedy, why you don't find it quite obvious that someone did, and there's nothing I can do about it. I shrug, I feel a sense of resignation and despair, and I walk away....

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 02:02 PM

Zapruder film. Watch it. Textbook example of someone being shot from the front. But every time you see the film on television, some commentator says, "and now Oswald's third shot finishes the job." You're shown one thing but the opposite is described.

Same thing that happend on 9/11. Demolition squib blasts zippering down the sides of the towers while a commentator says, "and then the plane's jet fuel caused a total collapse."

I need to locate Steven Jones' latest research paper. Analysis of microscopic globules of hardened metal from the WTC tower sites. Globules spewed out in the collapses, hardened into spheres during the fall, then embedded in the dust. Analyzed by Jones and others, and thermate is in the samples. Aluminum, iron oxide, sulphur, phosphorous...in the exact percentages that were predicted for a thermate demolition. Incredibly damning work. Big PDF and technical, but Jones shows that from the very dust on the street, the chemical evidence of steel-cutting thermate is there. I'll look for that later.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 02:04 PM

Fair enough, Becca. Of course Democrats lie. Democrats and Republicans are equally adept at lying. The biggest lies are usually told by those in charge of governments. I expect little BUT lies from either the Democrats or the Republicans once they get into office, because whoever is in office pretty well HAS to lie. There's a lot to hide.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 02:09 PM

"I have no idea why you find it implausible that someone might have fired shots from in front of Kennedy"

There! You proved that you are making assumptions and read what you want to read. I do believe that there was at least a second gunman and that Kennedy was shot from the front.

What you did was read your own thoughts into my comment, and if you re-read you will see that I NEVER disagreed with you.

Which proves my point, it is hard to find someone with an open mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 02:14 PM

"Demolition squib blasts zippering down the sides of the towers"

Again, your opinion. That did not look like "demolition squib" blasts to many people.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:16 PM

Advocates of the idea that the collapse of the WTC buildings was all a government plot often point to a film clip of what appear to be explosions at various points in one of the buildings as the floors above them begin to "pancake," and say with fierce glee, "See? See? Controlled explosions! There's your proof!" And then, they follow that with the non sequiter (leap of logic) claim that this proves that it was done by the Bush administration.

"Demolition squib blasts."

And no, they didn't "zipper," they were quite random.

Sorry, Charlie! Regarding those so-called "controlled explosions," the WTC buildings were large, and buildings that large have transformers in them, the same way any neighborhood has transformers (in neighborhoods, they look like trash cans hung up high on utility poles). During windstorms in which power lines may be whipped around and broken by falling tree branches, transformers short out and often explode. There were a lot of transformers exploding in New Orleans during hurricane Katrina, but nobody tries to claim they were "demolition squib blasts." [Oh, hey!! There's a great one for the GUEST-of-many-names to go to work on! Hurricane Katrina was a government plot! (That's just for openers. With someone as "creative" as GUEST-of-many-names, cobbling together the reasons should be no problem.)]   And, of course, when the planes hit the buildings, a lot of wires were broken, and following that, when the buildings started to collapse, even more transformers went, causing a lot of transformers to short out. And when transformers short out and start to burn before they explode, the fire can be as hot as a welding torch—and melt structural steel!

Have you ever seen a transformer explode? Pretty spectacular!

During windstorm

During snowstorm. Weight of ice on wires—the snap, shorting out a couple of transformers.

Sub-station. Transformer shorts out, mineral oil catches fire, transformer blows.

This sort of thing can be expected to happen if an aircraft as large as a airliner and loaded with fuel collides with a large building.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:22 PM

That should read "And, of course, when the planes hit the buildings, a lot of wires were broken, and following that, when the buildings started to collapse, even more power lines (not "transformers") went, causing a lot of transformers to short out."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:39 PM

This is so pathetic. While the government is openly conspiring against its own citizens on the publlic record, this conspiracy nonsense goes on. What a waste of time.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:40 PM

" Goodman still sees her job as what it's always been, to lie and deceive,"

This comment unfortunately vitiates a valid point. Nobody really knows what happened on 911. Everyone on this thread is pissing in the wind.

But the Guest who attacks Amy Goodman has attacked the argument that is presented.

My eyes tell me that in looking at the towers collapsing, the jet fuel wasn't potent enough to cause this because it was spent outside after the plane hit.

My eyes tell me that this matches every building demolition that I have seen.

My logic tells me that the people and the physical material reduced to a powdery pulp could not come from spent jet fuel in an aircraft collision. Other planes have hit other buildings before without this outcome.

I also refuse to accept unequivocally that this was an inside job but since there has been a lack of decent evidence to substantiate the case either way, the question still remains open despite the opinions and conjectures of unknowlegeable people on this thread.

A legitimate investigation needs to be done but is not politically advantageous to Bush.
We won't see it for a while. So the thread should read, "911 could or could not be inside job".

Without evidence that is conclusive, and with attacks on individuals, the question is still up in the air. (So to speak).

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: pirandello
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:46 PM

Who said the Pentagon plane only made a nine-foot hole? Take a look at the picture of the building in the official report and you'll see devastation and collapse from floor to roof.

Personally I don't really care which bunch of murderous lunatics was involved; whether it was Bu$hco or the Saudis we'll never really know.
If it was, as the tinfoil hat brigade protest, an inside job then that will never be made public and no amount of digging by sensationalist film-makers will reveal anything but innuendo and shadowy 'sources' who cannot-be-named because the men-in-black will get them-the classic Catch-22 of the conspiracy theorist.
And as for controlled explosions all I see is puffs of dust and debris; exactly what you would expect as massive amounts of air are displaced by the collapse of floors above.

Or, of course, it could have been the Knights Templar disguising the exact burial place of the Merovingian king whose lineage to Jesus was being discussed THAT VERY MOMENT by the Bilderburg Group; a sinister sect of Freemasons with links to VATICAN SECRETS which might have STUNNED the world if he had been allowed to live in 1242...

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:03 PM

"My eyes tell me that in looking at the towers collapsing, the jet fuel wasn't potent enough to cause this because it was spent outside after the plane hit."

I guess each eye can view these situations differently. From the crash I saw, I can believe that the amount of fuel could have caused this because I don't think the fuel was spent outside.

"My eyes tell me that this matches every building demolition that I have seen."

My eyes see it as randowm and not controlled. The puffs appear to match what I would expect from pressure pushing downward.

Then again, it could be controlled demolition too.

Of course, none of us really know, and probably will never know for certain.   We have to keep asking but we should not be foolish enough to buy into theories that we have not fully explored and looked at the counter-evidence.

Yet, this brings hours of endless fun for posters on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:33 PM

Well, Ron, I am pleased that you are open to some of the possibilities I mentioned about Kennedy's assassination. Yes, I made some assumptions about what you were thinking, as best I could, and apparently some of my assumptions about what you were thinking were wrong. That often happens. It's very hard to know exactly what another person is thinking on the basis of a few brief statements he makes on an internet forum, and one naturally makes assumptions....as best one can. One tries to determine what the other person is thinking.

Now don't be ungratious, okay? ;-D You said (with what sounds to me kind of like a cry of triumphant delight):

"You proved that you are making assumptions and read what you want to read."

Gosh! How shocking! Yes, of course I made assumptions. Everyone makes assumptions. What I want to read, Ron, is not necessarily what you think I want to read. You are making your own assumptions about that, and they may also be faulty. What I really want to read is that everyone in the world has finally found out exactly what happened in Dallas and on 911 too...and here is the absolute proof...and here are the signed confessions of the guilty...and no one disputes any of it any longer. That's what I want to read. I want to read that all the wars have ended, and all the soldiers are coming home. I want to read that no one is attacking anyone any longer. But I won't live long enough to ever see that happen.

Who among us is omnisicient? Not I. If I were, I would never need to make any assumptions at all, would I? If you were omniscient, you wouldn't need to either. We both make assumptions, Ron. We both err sometimes in those assumptions. That's life.

As you said, "none of us really know, and probably will never know for certain". Right. We merely suspect this or we suspect that or we suspect the other thing.

Still, it's bloody annoying to hear other people who also don't know what happened making their usual dumb smartass jokes about tinfoil hats in the middle of what ought to be a serious discussion. They enjoy ridiculing others for suspecting what they don't suspect, but the fact is...they don't know. No more than you or I do. Nobody here knows for sure, we merely have our various suspicions.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: pirandello
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:42 PM

'Dumb, smartass jokes', maybe, but just because a government might not choose to reveal all to those who demand revelation; and why should it-does not by implication suggest a sinister alternative scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:56 PM

I won't be ungracious Gza. :)

It isn't a game, it is a discussion and as long as everyone keeps it on the level and not take it personally, there is no harm and we might actually beging to see things differently.

Your point that I make assumptions is a given. That was part of what I was trying to say. None of us can really keep an open mind, no matter how hard we try. The point is, we need to see in others what may be missing in ourselves.    If you look at a glass and see it half full, I should not question as to why you don't see it half empty. Somone else may wonder why neither one of us notice the glass is dirty.

We can share our OPINIONS, but we should be careful when we try to make it definitive. I've never seen anyone shot in the head so it would be hard for me to say what an exit wound should look like. While most people question it, the possibility exists that Oswald could have done it by himself. You and I, and millions of people doubt that, but it is a distinct possibility.    Some people watched the WTC fall and saw controlled explosions. I saw a huge building collapsing onto itself and the force of pressure at work. Who knows who is right?

One thing I ask everyone who believes in the controlled demolition theory - did you ever visit the WTC before 9/11?   Do you know the area and the enormity of the buildings? I think with a little personal knowledge of the site, you might be more apt to believe the so called "official" theory.

Again, no one knows. We just have to ask questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:39 PM

I am willing to believe something if I am offered some substantial proof, not just suppositions, no matter how firmly, passionately, and frequently stated. Do I believe it's possible that what GUEST-of-the-many-names keeps posting over and over and over again might be true? I believe that it is within the realm of the possible. But I also believe that it is highly unlikely.

The Bush administration blamed Saddam Hussein when most of the rest of the world blamed Osama din Laden and al Qaeda. Now, here's a thought that all of our hard-charging conspiracy theorists might consider:

Did it ever occur to you that the Bush administration is bloody clueless?

They have been flat caught--and easily so--in so many bits of hanky-panky, cheating, double-dealing, and flagrant incompetence that it stretches credibility beyond the point of the bizarre to think they could have organized something as diabolically complex as what the 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim.

After watching them in action for the past seven years, it should be fairly obvious to anyone who's been paying attention that the troupe of clowns known popularly as the Bush administration isn't sufficiently competent to organize a Halloween prank like pushing over an outhouse without tripping over their own feet and flopping into the pit themselves.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:07 PM

amen...

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:41 PM

Well, that's a possibility, Don. But what if the planning and the executing of 911 was done by professionals who are far better at their job than the principal members of the Bush administration? What if the Bush administration are just a bunch of stuffed dummies for the public to focus on? What if the overall planning was done by black ops professionals who are working for the people who own both the Democratic and Republican parties, and who were just as much behind the Clinton administration as they are behind the Bush administration...and who will, no doubt, be behind the next administration of stuffed dummies...whether or not it is a Democratic or a Republican administration.

I'm not talking about people who are seeking another measly 4 years in office. I'm not talking about people you will ever get to vote for. No, I am talking about people who run grand international strategy on behalf of the military-industrial complex and the energy corporations. People who topple governments and organize coups. People who set up wars and arrange assassinations. People who are versed in germ warfare, demolition, and secret weapons we haven't even heard about yet. People who are not seeking just national power, but world power.

I don't think those people are stupid at all, nor do I think they are the least bit inefficient. I just think they're insane (in my terms, but not in their own). I think they will still be around when Bush is long gone. If Hillary is elected, they will still be around, and they will still "arrange" things. If Obama is elected, ditto.

That's also a possibility, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:32 PM

George Schultze, James Baker, Henry Kissinger, etc....hardly incompetents.

And Peter T., 9/11 is the event that led to our wholesale loss of rights. It is the event that everyone remembers, so it is the event that needs to be highlighted. No one can remember that we lost habeas corpus in the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007, but everyone remembers GWBush saying we're going to get Ossama bin Laden for 9/11. Expose the big lie and all the others will be exposed too.

The 9/11 proof of government involvement is so overwhelming, and it just keeps piling up higher every day. Just yesterday Judicial Watch got FBI documents showing that the bin Laden family was allowed to skip the country after 9/11. The govt's been denying this up til now:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/printer_6322.shtml

Anyway, Steven Jones' article on the thermate spheres is on the web if anyone wants to read the research paper. The link below leads to a page with a video of him presenting the evidence. Lots of other interesting and damning stories at the link too.

http://www.northtexansfor911truth.com/

9/11 Debunkers Hide From Slam Dunk Evidence Of Controlled Demolition

Electron microscope analysis of steel spheres from WTC site proves thermate, proves collapse of twin towers was an act of deliberate arson.

Professor Steven Jones presented brand new and compelling evidence for the controlled demolition of the twin towers and WTC 7 recently, but the 9/11 debunkers and the corporate media are loathe to tackle it because it represents a slam dunk on proving the collapse of the buildings was a deliberate act of arson.

Jones detailed his lab experiments in which he attempted to replicate NIST's conclusion that the lava like orange material flowing out of the south tower is aluminum from Flight 175, the plane that hit the building. Jones clearly documents the fact that liquid aluminum is silver and not orange as is seen in the video of the south tower, therefore the material cannot be aluminum. Jones then explains that the material is in fact a compound that can cut through steel like a hot knife through butter, thermite with sulphur added to make thermate.

The crux of the fresh evidence revolves around newly uncovered globules or spheres that were discovered at the WTC site that Professor Jones was able to obtain and run a electron microscope analysis on.

The spheres contained iron and aluminum, which would be expected in any steel sample, but also sulphur which is a by-product of a thermate reaction.

So having moved from a hypothesis that thermate was used to bring down the towers from using video footage and debunking the aluminum explanation of NIST, Jones now has empirical scientific proof, undertaken under laboratory conditions, that thermate was indeed used as an artificial explosive at the World Trade Center.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:25 PM

You don't rise high in the ranks of the CIA, Military Intelligence, and Black Ops by being an incompetent. You do it by being smart, efficient, and completely ruthless, following orders, and keeping your mouth shut....and making sure other people keep their mouths shut as well. Whatever it takes to do it.

At least, that's what I've heard...can't say I have any personal experience in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:59 PM

Looks like one of these guys may be the witness to the explosion in WTC7 on the morning of 9/11:

Most of Building 7 of the World Trade Center was evacuated around the time the South Tower was hit (see (9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001). However, firefighters find three individuals who have become trapped inside it. Among them are Barry Jennings, a City Housing Authority worker, and Mike Hess, New York's chief lawyer who is also a longtime friend of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. The two had gone up to the 23rd floor headquarters of the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management some time before 10 a.m., but found it empty. (It was evacuated at 9:30 a.m.; see 9:30 a.m. September 11, 2001.) They headed downstairs but became trapped around the sixth floor by smoke and debris that filled the staircase as a result of the North Tower collapsing at 10:28 a.m. After breaking a window and calling for help, they were spotted by firefighters outside. When the firefighters go in, they also find a security officer for one of the businesses based in the building, who is trapped on the 7th floor by the smoke in the stairway. Why this guard did not evacuate earlier, along with the rest of WTC 7, is unknown. All three men are escorted out of the building.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.net/entity.jsp?entity=barry_jennings_1

So, the story Hess and the two others were telling was that there was "smoke and debris" preventing them from leaving the building. Good team players, they stuck to the script. But something has changed. One of them has decided to tell the truth. Interesting.