Can anyone learn to sing

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Merritt
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 01:45 AM

Just read this whole thread. What Jack (known as Jack) said awhile back resonates with my experience: "Everyone has their own voice (or in some individual cases several voices), that they have to discover and cultivate through experimentation. I think the main barrier to fully developing ones own voice is the fear of just "letting it all hang out" until the best that you can do finds its way to the surface."

I've gone from non-singer to singer over the last few months at the age of 48/49. This is a revelation for me – something bordering on spiritual – so am a bit reluctant to post.

As a young child, I never sang because I didn't like my voice. Played folk-rock in high school, then rock in bar/dance bands. Always sang back-up harmonies, but never considered myself a "singer." Quit music for 20 years; got back into it playing guitar in an instrumental duo in the late-90s.

When the duo broke up, and I was faced with continuing as solo performer, putting a group together, etc., I actually started to learn to sing. Went solo last May – threw myself into the soup - found my voice and am still getting know it. No formal training involved, but attention to ways that singers across a range of genres use their voices. There's a confidence-building component to this, as well, as someone earlier in thread mentioned. My full-voice vocal range has expanded from low Eb - C# just above middle C to low C# - high G. On a good night, I can hit a high A or even B, but it's not consistent enuf to claim yet. So far, it's all been a process of just finding, claiming and getting inside my own voice.

With practice or performance, find that the longer I sing, the better my voice feels and sounds. Am picky about keys, arrangements, etc. that work for my voice.

During breaks and after performances, people I don't know walk up to me and tell me how much they enjoy my voice, my singing. I'm amazed and grateful. I feel like the outfielder who catches a flyball while daydreaming & scratching his head with his glove. Wish I could've figured this out when I was twenty. But, who knows? Maybe I didn't have a voice when I was twenty.

- Merritt

"It's all one big note." – Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Signe
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:40 PM

This was interesting reading. I went to a Chroisters Guild convention once and heard about the Mable Boyton or Boyter method for teaching children to sing on pitch. It worked for a young lad in our junior choir at church and here is how it was done. You put your temple against the student's temple facing each other and close off the outside ear of the student so they can really listen to the sound they make. Then you hum a note and ask them to match the pitch. Another way is to ask them to sing a note and then you match it. It takes patience and a cooperative student.
I think that all children should be encouraged to sing from early in life. It's awful to tell a child to just mouth the words.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: RichM
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 11:07 AM

For young ones? I'm reluctant to advise print/video/audio tape methods. Simply because each child should be assessed as to the best way to help him/her learn; i.e., a human teacher. At least to start with.
For a kid,musicexperience has to be enjoyable. And some kids are better at learning visually, others by ear. A music teacher can best decide.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From:
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:02 AM

Does anyone know of any good singing lesson/programs, instrucional videos/books --for children????????

please emial me......

thank you

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Steven G.
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:55 PM

Well for me, I learned to sing by being part of choir a few years ago. Which was great for about 4 years, I certainly learned a lot.

An being a amateur musician, I am constantly listening to the radio, and with my guitar learning new tunes, and trying to get the song. And I agree, Ross, that it is a challenge for me trying to sing the song at the right key. Sometimes, I tried to sing it the way the songwriter wrote it in, and it didn't work for me. So I work on the chords until I finally find a combination of chords I can the song it in. Unfortunately, I cannot read music, but I always thought having a great ear for music was good enough anyway. But it would be great someday to learn to read music.

Anyone can sing, all it takes is practice and practice. And have a great time playing and singing

Steven G.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Mark Ross
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:24 PM

The hardest part of learning to sing is finding the right key. I have know a lot of people who play music. Some(like my brother)are glued to the sheet music and spend so much time trying to get the instrument to sound right they have never given a thought to whether or not the key suits their range. If you can find the right key than that is 50% of the battle.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,andrew2002
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 03:46 PM

is there anything on the web that can help me to learn to sing.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 Feb 02 - 07:42 AM

This has been a fascinating thread, and I've learned a lot from it so far. But for me, the most economical statement on the question still remains this limerick:

There was a young lady from Tring,
Who said, when they asked her to sing:
"You may think it's odd,
But I cannot tell God
Save the Weasel from Pop goes the King!"

If , unlike this lady, you recognise a tune when you hear it, then you are not "tone deaf".

If you can recognise tunes, but still sing them inaccurately, or with an unpleasing tone, then good teaching and regular practice can improve your technique. (Though it may never turn you into a virtuoso.)

If, despite giving it your very best, you still hit the odd bum note, console yourself with the thought that even the best singers do this occasionally. There is a lot of snobbery in the musical world on this topic – don't let it get you down.

When an operatic diva hits a wrong note, critics say: "She's having trouble with her intonation tonight."

When a jazz singer hits a wrong note, critics say: "That was an interesting improvisation – but it didn't quite work for me."

When a rock singer hits a wrong note, critics say: "Aw, the kid's tone deaf!"

And when a folk singer hits a wrong note, critics say: "Well, I suppose folk music is meant to sound that way – isn't that why it died out?"

So, if you were written off at the age of five by your first music teacher, and ordered to open and shut your mouth in silence while the rest of the class sang - don't be discouraged. Work on your technique – be cautious about what you sing, and where – don't overtax the tolerance of your listeners – but don't give up trying. Remember, folk music belongs to the people. All the people. And that includes the many who are not gifted with brilliant voices, as well as the few who are.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Alice
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:28 AM

I have used the term vocal folds instead of vocal cords in other threads on this topic. At the University of Pittsburgh Voice Center site which I linked to in other threads, it shows pictures of "Normal Vocal Cords", with this caption - Click Here"Normal Vocal Cords Here is a sequence of the vocal cords during voice production (adduction) phases of vocal fold vibration."
On the FAQ of the Voice Center site, there is this question and answer:"I have heard that drinking water is good for my voice, is this true? And how much?

Yes. The vocal cords (also called folds) vibrate against each other 100-400 times per second and require constant lubrication. Drinking 6-8 glasses of water and avoiding caffeinated drinks(cola,tea and coffee) is recommended for the "vocal lubrication."

Here is an interesting site on vocal anatomy, using both terms, "cords" and "folds". Singing Voice: Vocal Anatomy

It was strange for me to read what I had written here back in 1998. I stop in here with little time to write, and I can see that back then, too, I was typing down choppy thoughts and submitting without time to proofread. Ah, well. Time to get to work.

Alice

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 05:51 AM

I think everbody can sing - no learning required. The end product might be vitually inaudible or have everyone running for cover and set all the neighbourhood dogs barking. I think the question is really "Can training/practice improve this innate ability ?". The answer has got to be yes, but how far depends on you own musical sensitivity and even more on your motivation.

Folk music is a medium that will allow a much wider variation in quality of singing than most. I have always believed that "Telling the story" is more important than producing beautiful, but incomprehensible, sounds. The skills of delivery and phrasing can make up for all sorts of deficiencies in pitch and tone. If you are singing in public, projection is needed, but if you will be using a PA, not to such a great degree. Careful choice of material is VERY important - choose songs that will suit your voice/style, not just songs that you like someone else singing.

In order to sing, you must want to communicate with an audience. Performing of any kind is an ego-trip and to some extent a control-freak thing - if you don't see it that way, then why do you want to do it in the first place ? Keeping this in mind, try to develop a style and repertoire that best helps you to achieve this.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Alice
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 10:08 PM

Townes, that is great news. I am so glad to hear about what you've been doing since this thread started.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 09:47 PM

Singing along with records is what helped me get started. Pick songs you know well and that are in your range (where you can hit the high notes without straining) and sing along with them A LOT! (The same method helped me hear and sing harmonies.) I had about a one octave range when I started, and through practising a whole lot it's now up to about 2 1/2 octaves.

I do believe, however, that some people are "tone deaf". Sure, they can sing, but you wouldn't want to listen...

Cheers,
Michae;

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Townes
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 09:31 PM

G'day Catters I'm Pete the person who posted the original thread back in March 1998. (Was it really that long ago!). Well I can't speak for all, but my tale is worth telling. After the info I received from the regular contributor's back then, I went away and taught myself to play the guitar and started to practice singing. I now sing in a band doing skiffle, country and green grass (as we call it) along with Celtic material certainly not settling on one particular genre that's for sure. But without doubt my greatest pleasure is the home sessions with friends sitting around and singing till the early hours or until the Guinness runs out. Sure beats putting on a CD. The hardest thing I found was to actually sing solo in front of others for the first time. A very daunting experience and for me at least, it took a lot of nervous tries to actually carry out. But once you do it, you're on the way. When you progress and get into the band thing the buzz of playing to a live audience is an unbelievable. You want to come back time and again.

I said in another thread recently music is a platform to a higher ground. I say if you want to sing, go out and do it! forget about the embarrassment the nerves etc (most of it is in the mind) and most of all enjoy.

Regards Townes

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 02:57 AM

Many years ago I took a class called "Seeds of Singing" with Susan Osborn, who used to sing with the Paul Winter Consort. She is a firm believer in the old proverb, "If you can walk, you can dance; if you can talk, you can sing." The muscles which control the larynx are among the tiniest in the body, and are incredibly sensitive to thought and emotion (ever get "choked up" or feel a "lump in your throat"?) It's possible to learn to relax those muscles, using her techniques or others, and to let a singing voice come from a previously "monotone" throat. I've heard it happen...and it's amazing.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: little john cameron
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 06:51 PM

Years ago i was is a pals car an' he was hummin away tae hiself."Whit are ye hummin" I asked him."Danny Boy"he answered.Weel,ah wis dumbfoonert,it wis naetin like Danny Boy.Mah wife is the same.TONE DEAF!!!wHIT ABOOT THEM THEN? LJC

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Lisa
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 06:44 PM

RE: the singers' club person -- maybe they could tactfully be steered in the direction of recitations!

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Lisa
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 06:41 PM

(Actually, the correct term is "vocal folds." We now return you to your regular discussion.)

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 06:21 PM

If Lyle Lovett and I can sing - anyone can -

Steve

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 05:42 AM

Peg - that's a really difficult one. It can be squirmingly aweful to listen to someone like that - but I don't think you can tell them they're really bad & shouldn't bother. Neither should you tell them they are good of course. The best you can do really is to try to find something good to focus on, even if its just the choice of song, or the lyrics.
I've only ever heard one person that fell into this catagory, and listening to her made my teeth sweat. But it was at an open-to-everyone singaround, so she was quite welcome to have a go.
Is it OK for people to join in quietly and try to guide her (tactfully)?

Kris

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: 53
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 10:24 PM

If they try.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Alice
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 08:19 PM

Dear Grammar Police, I know it is vocal cords, not chords. I made a mistake when typing. No one is perfect. Get over it.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 05:52 PM

there is a person who comes to the singers' club in Boston sometimes who has the monotone problem described above. This person seems to like traditional music but cannot reprosuce anything resembling a melody...it seems impolite to tell this person they are not welcome, or they'd be better off listening than singing...but how can you tell someone they sound a lot worse than they think they do? I mean, we're not talking poor singing, we're talking noises not the least bit musical...no notes and no rhythm either..what to do? How can you tell someone they just can't sing? Also doing something like that is not that different from leaders of instrumental sessiuns rudely telling some players they can't take part because they're not good enough or don't know enough songs or whatever...

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: KAS
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 05:23 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Miken
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 11:53 PM

Thanks,Bob , I feel better already! Several years ago when I was singing very little I came across a song that really grabbed me. I worked out a simple guitar bit and since I had a small recorder handy, I taped myself singing it - it sounded terrible. My then wife passed the room and asked who the hell that was on the tape. I said "me" and she said no way was that the same person she'd heard from the kitchen earlier. Granted, it was a poor recording, but I was prepared to believe I really sounded like that. Point is I think I'm far more critical of my musical efforts than others are; maybe my sinuses aren't as bad as all that. Happy New Year to you and Judy, see you Sunday. Looking forward to it.

Mike Nelson

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,GrammarPolice
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 10:52 PM

"how to use our vocal chords," ~ Alice. The grammar police will chide you over this one, but gently: they're vocal cords
bind up my tongue and vocal chords. JonW too

The GrammarPolice

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 10:06 PM

My first and favorite vocal coach said it thusly:

Anyone can learn to sing *better* than they already do. Not everyone is destined to sing well.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 06:27 PM

I'd like to respond to Barbara Shaw's comments regarding how she sounded "just awful." It's important to remember, or perhaps learn, that your voice sounds entirely different from the "inside" than from the "outside." As your vocal tones are produced, thru the various mechanisms and chambers we all have, it resonates thru your own particuliar nasal passages, sinus cavities, etc. Each of us is different, and our heads, body cavities, sinuses, etc., are different. That's a large part of why we each sound different. What you hear of yourself when you sing is from the "inside." What others hear of you has the added enhancements of those cavities. When you hear yourself, you mostly are hearing your voice thru bone conduction, not the ears. So, you don't sound as bad to others as you sound to yourself. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: 8_Pints
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 05:40 PM

I was one of those people who was not allowed to join the school choir. For years I thought I couldn't sing and only realised as an adult that it was because my voice didn't fit in to the range my music teacher required. He only asked me to sing high - I could never be a soprano however long I tried! I started joining in singarounds at folk festivals, at first with the choruses and then singing solo. I remember being amazed when I was introduced to someone as "a singer", I had just not thought about myself in that way! I have listened to many, many singers over the years and have learnt something from most of them. I sing most weeks at the Ducie Arms in Manchester (The Song Carriers Club), where I have received a lot of support and encouragement to extend my repertoire and to try out stuff that I might not have dared, had I been left to my own devices! I was a Primary school teacher for several years and used to do lots of singing with the kids - from this grew the confidence to run song workshops at Folk Camps. Singing, and listening to the singing of others, is one of the greatest joys in my life. I'm so glad I have met people who have encouraged me (especially Bob, my husband) and who told me that I COULD sing! Thanks to you all! Sue vG

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: John J
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 12:01 PM

Well if I can get away with singing, anyone can!

Good luck with your singing, it's lots of fun.

John

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: 53
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 11:45 AM

i've been playing guitar for 37 years most of the time professionaly, and in a working band, but until i retired i did no singing, but now i sit at home and have learned to try to sing and i think i'm doing pretty good, anyway it;s a lot of fun, glenda and i play guitar and sing together almost everyday, and that's a blessing. BOB

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,misophist
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 10:43 AM

Of course anyone can learn to sing, even the "monotones' mentioned above. The question really is: Can anyone become the kind of singer you would pay money to hear? The answer to that, unfortunately, is no. The solution is: sing anyway, even you monotones. The first reason to sing is to please yourself; if you can please others too, that's nice but unnecessary. After all the great advice given above, the only thing I can add is to cite Stravinsky: "It's not enough to hear. A duck can hear." Listen! Listen to yourself the same way you listen to others. You may not be able to equal them but you can certainly improve.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 10:18 AM

we can all sing, it just depends on how well the result is judged and by whom
and how much we want to learn - for us not for Mum, Dad or whoever.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Alice
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 09:47 AM

Kris, I'm very glad to hear this. I, too, had to be patient and really work consistently to get my low and high range to sound like one voice - just takes time and work, and you are on your way. It sounds like your progress was just about like mine, at one year of lessons. Eventually it does become second nature, and the joy of having all that power and confidence comes through in every song. I started lessons when I was 44, and I just turned 50 on December 20. You're never too old to sing!

Alice

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 09:21 AM

Couldn't resist reviving this one.
I've been taking singing lessons since first reading this thread, and its amazing how my opinions have changed, and how much of Alice's advice (in this and other threads) is spot-on.
First of all - proper tuition and exercises make a huge difference to the voice. I used to sing low and loud all the time, but it turns out I'm soprano & haven't been using the best part of my voice at all.
When I first started the lessons I had a very powerful developed chest voice & just a really weedy head voice. Over the initial weeks the position of the breakpoints revealed that my natural range is soprano. I gradually built up a range of good quality high notes by exercises & these are now just starting to be accessible to me in songs (to start with they were only there in the exercises).
Up until very recently I was concentrating so hard on technique that the songs Tania was teaching me via were coming out very unemotional and dull. There was also a very definite gulf between what I was learning and what I was singing at pubs & sessions (which was lagging the lessons in quality but retained the emotional expression - I continued to sing in my old voice because the new one isn't ready yet...).
Over the last few weeks Tania has been concentrating on getting me to put some communication into the songs - which is coming along slowly. Steve t advises (above) that if the lessons take the expressiveness out of your voice then drop them - but I'd argue that its worth sitting it out a while because the expression will very likely come back in just as soon as the techniques become second nature (which they do, and then you'll have more tools to express with.....)
I'm really pleased that I'm taking lessons as there is no way I could have got this far on my own. The only downside is that the more you learn the more you realise how much there is left to learn. But its well worth it...
The techniques I have learnt have spread from the exercises to the taught songs and then into the folk & blues songs that I really love singing. Just because the teaching is done in one style of music doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to the style you want to sing in.
The thing I'm struggling with at the moment is that transition between chest & voice - and trying to get the two powerful ends of my voice to meet in the middle (big gap at the moment I'm afraid).
Reaction from friends is that the lessons have been worth while and have made huge improvements in my singing, one saying that I've gone from "someone that turns up and just does their best" to one of the better performers at the session. I even impressed my husband two weeks ago at a party - but then he had been drinking.......
Another thing in favour of vocal exercises....... I assume its to do with the muscles used, but after singing practice I feel exactly the same way as I do after a damned good seeing to! Sets you up for the day, it does!
So - if you're thinking of taking lessons - then my advice is to go for it.......

Cheers'm'dears
Kris

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Alice
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 10:35 AM

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Mar 98 - 11:19 PM

Please, I'm just getting over 2 broken legs, have a hard enough time singing Crooked Jack & A Begging I Will Go (*grin*) with out having to pay the piper for it or laugh myself into a fit. Barry

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: steve t
Date: 27 Mar 98 - 01:16 PM

I think the next thread should be, Can anyone learn to dance? :-)

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 98 - 08:54 AM

Can't resist commenting on this.

NO. Everyone can't learn to sing. My older son is a monotone, which is a genetic trait he inherited from his father, my first husband. As much as he loves music, he is incapable of "carrying a tune." I don't know if monotones hear it wrong and reproduce what they hear or just can't reproduce the correct sounds.

But if you can carry a tune, you can sing already. Some of my favorite singers are the old-time mountain voices, the more primitive the better. I also like opera. Each has its appeal.

The first time I sang a lead in a jam session, I was mortified that I sounded awful. Afterwards, someone came up to me to say how much he enjoyed my song, and what a beautiful voice, etc. etc. It's all in your outlook. Sing out!

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 25 Mar 98 - 07:06 PM

Sorry, Moira, I was never told to just mouth the words but I figured it out for myself. I can tell I'm not singing the same notes as everybody else (or as an instrument), but I can't tell whether I'm too high or too low.

To answer the original question, I think everybody can learn to improve their singing. I could probably even learn to sing along with others if I were willing to spend the time training myself or getting the training. Maybe I could even learn to hit the final tonics, which for some reason are the hardest part.

On technique and emotion: Bob Dylan is said to sing with a lot more feeling than Joan Baez, but Baez's best songs move me a lot more. Partly it's her beautiful voice, and partly it's her restraint. If the emotion is in the music, then you "just" need to sing the music--expressively, but not emoting--and I for one will get it. If the emotion's not in the music for you, then you should probably be considering performing other songs (and you probably are).

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Alice
Date: 24 Mar 98 - 11:13 AM

A final comment. Having no teacher at all is better than having a bad teacher. Moira and Barry's comments brought back dark memories of my school years. I was always put in the alto section from grade 4 thru 9, then in second soprano in high school. It wasn't until I started lessons at age 44 that I found that my natural range was soprano. I think the nuns may have put me in alto because I had piano lessons and could read music. Maybe they needed more music readers to figure out the harmony line. From third grade until 7th, I had a piano teacher who was a sweet, eccentric old lady. When she became senile, my parents switched my piano classes to the school. The nun who taught me seemed to really resent my shy nerdiness. I could see her disdain of my ugly glasses and bad haircuts. Needless to say, she killed all my interest in taking piano lessons, and I didn't continue with them.
RAINBOW TRAIL
(Navajo song)
Walk on a rainbow trail; walk on a trail of song, and all about you will be beauty. There is a way out of every dark mist, over a rainbow trail.

alice, mt

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Moira Cameron
Date: 24 Mar 98 - 10:44 AM

In Yellowknife, where I live, we have monthly song circles. They are open to anyone, whether they think they can sing or not. I've been amazed, and frankly pissed off, at the number of people who, as children, were strongly advised by teachers and other adults to "mouth the words" and not even try to sing. This kind of advice went a long way to shattering the self esteem of these young children.

I'm happy to report, however, that after a lot of generous support and encouragement, these paople, now adults, are singing again at our song circles. They won't be performing any time soon, but it's a start.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 24 Mar 98 - 06:13 AM

Alice's comment about the stereotype of a trained singer always sounding formal reflects a broader attitude to music education. I don't know how many times I've been asked if I play by "music" or by "ear" as if the two were incompatible. I do both. To me it's like asking if you're literate or do you speak natural. Obviously music studies are not for everyone, I don't know squat about computers, but I use them. You can become a fine musician without any formal training, and if you're having fun without any long term goals of musical achievement, lessons could well be a waste of time. But it's a foolish person who disregards the accumulated experience of others.

My first guitar teacher was a fellow called Tiny Hostetter, he was wonderful guitarist with a horrible thin, reedy voice. Often he would sing and play. He told me not to be afraid of singing, that it would improve my playing, and that if I was too embarrassed to sing, just whistle. As much as he taught me about guitar, he taught me much more about life. He's gone now, and I'm getting emotional thinking about him.

Don't be afraid to sing, Frank i.t.s.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: steve t
Date: 24 Mar 98 - 02:06 AM

This topic draws me and draws me.

Regarding over-emoting. I'm not a great singer -- certainly worse than all but a very few professionals -- but occasionally I impress someone. Suzanne. Ain't no Cure for Love. A few other songs. I've had people I respected say your version, Steve, was the best I ever heard. But it *never* happens on my favourite songs.

My final comments: the most important part is getting to where you enjoy hearing *some* of your songs sung by yourself to yourself. The hardest part is learning to confidently sing *some* of your songs with other people. After that, it's all down hill. But you'll never be able to sing *all* the songs you want to as well as you'd like to.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Mar 98 - 01:23 AM

Yrs back in grammer school, 1957, I tried out for the school band (wind inst.), the Nun asked me to sing the scale & then said I wouldn't be able to play an instrument, so I also took it that I couldn't sing, & I really didn't want to. My family couldn't carry a tune, so I didn't have a clue. As a late teen I hung out with singers & musicians & didn't care if I could sing or not, I enjoyed it. After some long while of being asked to sing & being told 'I Could Sing', I started to believe it & started singing in earnest. The most guidence came from other singers, the best came from those that listened, from them I could read what was enjoyable to hear. I found that for my voice I'm best with blood & guts & hard hitting work type stuff, fits my personalty, I'm hard pressed to do emotionally well on a sweet love song, although there are a few I can do. I guess I'm saying I pick what I like, & what I think will be a perfect union between song & my voice. I also think emotion & personnel taste is important, you won't sing a song great if you don't feel great about it, the best you'll do is mimic it. And Jack (who is called Jack), you'd be wasting your 5 yrs to sound like them, they have a personnel style that has made them appealing, like Dylan, a fair voice can be enhanced with styling & other means, it all helps. Sorry for carrying on & on. Barry

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Alice
Date: 23 Mar 98 - 10:58 AM

The idea that learning some singing technique will suddenly make everything you sing sound like opera is ridiculous! It would be absurd to sing non-classical music in a classical manner. My point is that you can take what will help you and sing in your own way, singing any kind of music you want. The idea that voice lessons will make you sound unnatural is a misconception. How many of you have taken some lessons on an instrument and then gone on to play the instrument exactly the way that felt right for you? It's the same with singing. Whether you learn technique from a teacher or not, the point is to sing in the way that feels right for you. But, just as it is hard to listen to someone try to play the fiddle who is painfully off-key, it is hard to listen to someone singing painfully off-key. I agree with Frank about Billy Holiday. Some people are born natural singers, and develop that talent without formal training. alice

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 23 Mar 98 - 05:33 AM

Possibly my favourite singer ever is Billy Holiday. She had very little range and really, no tone or "sound" that would get anybody's attention, but she could take that beat up, raggedy instrument and sing like an angel.

I found Steve T's, comment about emotion interesting. This would be a case where a good teacher, or an honest critic could be helpful. Someone who is over-emoting can be downright embarrassing to listen to, but of course feeling is the magic ingredient. I know I'm not a very good singer myself, so I just focus on getting the tune right. If the song is good, people like it fine so long as you don't hurt their ears.

Frank I.T.S.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 22 Mar 98 - 09:44 PM

I think the answer to this question is yes.

Anyone can learn to sing.

But I don't think anyone can learn to sing in any manner whatsoever. For example, I could train and practice the next 5 years and I will never sound like Van Morrison or John Gorka, I just don't have it in me. Everyone has their own individual voice (or in some individual cases several voices), that they have to discover and cultivate through experimentation. I think the main barrier to fully developing ones own voice is the fear of just "letting it all hang out" until the best that you can do finds its way to the surface.

If you are not sure what your own voice is, one of the things I recommend is to listen to different kinds of singers and try to imitate the way they sound on record. The goal of this excercise is not to mimic for its own sake, but to exploring the limits and qualities of what your own voice can do. You will quickly find certain vocal styles that you pick up easily, and others that you just can't get. Also, you will find the mimicry will only go so far, and that in the end your own voice will come through in the end.

And don't be afraid to really let loose in this effort. (I recommend to you the documentary film Say Amen Somebody, where a person instructing gospel singers in a workshop told one of her pupils to stop smiling and start snarling when they sang. "You can't sing with a pretty mouth!", was the way she put it.).

Another suggestion I have is exactly the opposite of the one above. Try as much as possible to sing using your own natural diction. That is, try to sing words the way YOU would typically pronounce them them in normal conversation. No vibrato, no operatic tone or timbre. Just try to talk the words to the melody. You will be suprised at first how much concentration this takes. In all the effort to make the melody or the emotion come out, we stop making words in way that is natural to us, and doing so we lose our own natural voice.

Some individuals who are wonderful at singing in their own voice are Doc Watson, Merle Travis, Mississippi John Hurt. I also recommend the singing of Ginny Hawker, a mountain ballad singer from West Virginia.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Dan Keding
Date: 22 Mar 98 - 01:09 PM

Just sing. Keep singing whenever and wherever you get the chance. Listen to great singers and sing along with their recordings. If you enjoy singing don't worry about the rest of us. If we don't like it we can leave the room or suffer through the experience. Its folk music. its for everyone, its for you too.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Dan Keding
Date: 22 Mar 98 - 01:08 PM

Just sing. Keep singing whenever and wherever you get the chance. Listen to great singers and sing along with their recordings. If you enjoy singing don't worry about the rest of us. If we don't like it we can leave the room or suffer through the experience. Its folk music. its for everyone, its for you too.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: MAG
Date: 21 Mar 98 - 07:26 PM

Whether you take lessons or not, you need to know warm up exercises to avoid raunching out your voice, and feedback on getting the sound you want saves a lotta time. Lessons from a decent teacher save a lotta time, and if you don't have lots, they are worth it.