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Why so many Willies?
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Subject: Why so many Willies? From: GUEST,Eoin O'Budhaigh Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:42 PM Why is it that in most old songs and ballads the names of the males are 'Willie' or 'Johnny'. Why not have lines like ... 'Nigel, lovely Nigel'. or 'Colin O'Winsbury'? Any ideas for a variation of song lines or titles? Even the female names could do with a modern touch... 'Britney go round the roses' or 'Nicola and Wilfred sat reposing,, as opposed to 'Molly and Johnny sat reposing, Under a bank of blooming roses, etc etc..' |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:47 PM A lot of folks just like their Willies I guess. I know I do and it has proven popular with others of the opposite sex in the past. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: DMcG Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:54 PM Excellent question with probably no good answer - there were certainly a lot of other common names judging by Church records and so on. You could come up with a Biblical reason for John, perhaps, but then you would have to explain why Matthew and Luke don't appear... So to suggest some new songs: Oh No, Brit, No, Brit, No Brit, No! When Tony goes marching home ... All alone with my Iain on the shore ... Georgie, Porgie, Pudding and Pie .... oh, we've got that one
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Fortunato Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM There can be only one. (The others are inferior copies) or so I have been told. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: lady penelope Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:08 PM 'Said Tony unto to Cheri......" Naahh! I know what happened.... they all went to america and became BILLIES !!!! TTFN M'Lady P. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:18 PM Well, there are a lot of men in this world, after all, so it's inevitable isn't it? Spaw has the right idea here, I don't know what the rest of you are going on about... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:33 PM Maybe it's from the phrase, "You give me the Willies." Which roughly means, "You give me the shivers, or the creeps." Not very complimentary to those whose name is William, come to think of it. Kinda like saying that something is "Jerry-built," meaning poorly built. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:37 PM Would that be something like, "Shatner has a jerry-built Willie?" Yes, there are imitators but there can be only one and I want to thank you Fortunato for acknowledging mine as that one! Much obliged. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: GUEST,Maeve Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:37 PM A line of a song a friend of mine sings -'The first time that I saw my Willie, it was in the ---' I cant remember any more but every time he sings it I burst out laughing. Then again he's over twenty stone in weight! (sorry Jim) |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:40 PM If he's real fat Maeve, maybe he hasn't seen his willie in awhile!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: gnu Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:42 PM Gee, I always thought it was "jury-built", as in "too many cooks spoil the broth" or "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand's doing." So, why did they start this saying after you, Jerry ? |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:46 PM I have suggested to Big Bill that he address you directly in this forum, Spaw, and put you firmly, and once and for all in your place, but he seems to regard you as beneath contempt. He can't be bothered. Actually, envy of Shatner's unique and matchless endowments is quite common, and has even led to some totally biased, downright mean-spirited criticism of his legendary artistic accomplishments. This is par for the course when you're as great as William Shatner, and is one of the prices paid by the matchlessly charismatic and virile in this cynical world. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Bill D Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:02 PM when 32.163% of all the words in English are a euphemism for some naughty bit, we get threads like this....*sigh* Just once, I'd like to see 37 straight, non-cutesy replies to a question like this...(well, maybe twice, so I could be sure it wasn't a fluke!...*grin*)
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: MMario Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:15 PM I thought it was 37% of English words are NOT euphamistic... |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: swirlygirl Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:32 PM I think it's because it's easy to sing... ...simple as that... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:32 PM Well Bill, interestingly enough, I agree with you....to a point. I was waiting for some PVC glue to set after I left Mudcat and when I came back from the basement I kept thinking about this one and decided to try some search engine stuff. Now this was before I read your post and I will say that sometimes the jokes are simply that and there so how can I pass it by....yeah, I should, but I have no self-control. But that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in some topic and this one kinda' got me. That said.......... Checking back on Google, William, Michael, Robert, and John, are by far the most popular English names. If you check for the past ten years, it isn't always so, but going back a hundred it's obvious that though they may not be the top 4 every year (they aren't-only Michael has held long running top status for some reason), they always make the top 20. Out of those, if you play with the search engines from the DT, cowpie, lyrics world, insurgent cmhp, you get more hits for William or it's variants than any other and of the 4, Michael finishes dead last. Maybe that's because I tried only Michael and Mike, whereas the others I tried multiples like John, Johnny, Johnnie, Jon, Jack, etc. I know that's not too scientific because you pick up the words that are related but not the name such as mike(microphone) or bill (sent the bill).....but I figured the error factor would probably be about the same because all of them have some with dual meanings. In any case William and it's variants comes out first and I still have no idea why. It is a popular name, but I think it must simply be the ease of saying it, rhyming it, whatever, combined with the popularity of the name. Somebody else will have to figure it out......but as to Nigel? Always strikes me as an upper class version of Cletus. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: MMario Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:45 PM I found a listing for 1701 and the rankings were:
1)John (23.6%) |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: MMario Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:48 PM A 1901 listing for a Scottish community shows John William and Thomas (in that order) with the three names together making up almost 60 percent of all male names. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:00 PM Yeah Mario.....I think that most of the lists I found that Michael topped were American things but there are also some "Honorable Mention" names like Thomas which has done well along with James, Joseph, Timothy, and Daniel. Still, nothing beats a good Willie!!! Oh yeah, I ran across THIS LIST which wasn't particularly helpful, but I thought that it might be of more interest to some 'Catters.(:<)) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:24 PM So, what's gnu? In the second-world War, over here, they called Germans Krauts, or Jerry's. Maybe that's where "Jerry-built" came from.. Go figure. I think people use the word Willie, because it rolls off the tongue... I've done it meself. Wrote a song with the first line, "Late last night when Uncle Willie came home." Try it with Bob, or Fred, or Maurice and it just doesn't flow... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:27 PM ...and why is it when I'm waiting in line at a checkout counter and the teenage girls are popping their gum and talking about their boyfriends, their names all end in "y." Bobby, Billy, Joey, Johnny... But never Jerry... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: tandrink Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:32 PM In a related note...when looking at a lot of early bluesmen, there is an overwhelming number of them who are named Willie. Willie McTell, Willie Dixon, Willie Moore, Willie Brown and several more. Many of them also seemed to be blind...go figure. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Hawker Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:44 PM Bill D - Straight answer.......... because William is far too formal for what usually turns out to be a true love...... Because the thought of singing about darling Hubert or my dearest Kevin somehow doesnt scan, There are a fair few Johnnies in songs too, and there are double entendres there I am sure! Per haps its the ie sound that does it! Silly answer...Willies are lovely! Cheers, Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:57 PM Wish that all Williams were also lovely. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: GUEST,MAG at work Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:59 PM This reminds me of the time long ago and far away when, at some point during a workshop by a prominent traditional musical group; I was in the singing room ... alone ... and ( ) asked me if I knew why Peter, Dick, and Willie were so commonly used in traditional ballads. That was right before he took my arm and tried to pull me into his lap ... he only got away with it 'cause he was OLD. (and I was a LOT younger.) Send a PM to me at mag' if you don't believe. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Dorrie Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:25 PM kate rusby had to change willie to be billie cos singing willie lovely willie made her laugh to much- a useful piece of information i read some where |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Mrs.Duck Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:44 PM Silly conversation relating to statistics on the way home from pub last night. "You've statistically got more than the average number of willies and I have statistically more than the average number of boobs. How's about we get together and have more than the statistically average number of orgasms!" Well I had had statistically more than the average number of pints!!! |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Mrs.Duck Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:47 PM I forgot, Geoff said I was statistically talking more than the average load of bollocks. He was driving!!! |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Lepus Rex Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:53 PM My actualy, legal birth name is "Willy," which no one's called me since around 1980 or so. Before I started listeing to folk music, I had no idea what a bad-ass name it was. >:) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:35 PM "Willie Rex" might be good for you Lepus..........Name change and all........ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: greg stephens Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:04 PM Sadly, I dont know any songs whatsoever with the name Greg in, and as far as I am aware Greg is not a euphemism for any part of anyone's anatomy . In spite of the fact that the name is thousands of years old. What's wrong with my name? Please, can some Serb or Kurd write in andtell me that Greg means "enormous dick" or something flattering. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: artbrooks Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:07 PM I believe that it has something to do with the Orange Lodge. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:29 PM I always thought that Greg was short for gregarious, meaning, warm, friendly, affable, charming... the kind of guy everyone would like to know... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:33 PM I am afraid to say that in my part of the world GREG as a term referred to the stuff you cough up and need to spit out! SORRY!!! GtD! |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Lepus Rex Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:52 PM Well, thanks, Spaw. That makes my name sound all lame again. :~( ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Amos Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:55 PM Be interesting to know what those 1700 statistics looked like before Hastinbgs -- I'd be willing to bet William got a big boost as a name for having been hung on the Conqeror of England. Dominant figure in the popular imagination and all that... Come to think of it, the Willy of which we are all so fond is also a dominant figure in the popular imagination, much as Little Kitty is. Maybe there's something to this after all.... A |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: greg stephens Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:57 PM Geoff the Duck where is your part of the world? I want to make a point of never visiting. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Snuffy Date: 04 Apr 02 - 08:04 PM Willy, John Thomas, Dick and Peter are the real thing, but you know where you can stick your Johnnies. WassaiL! V |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Apr 02 - 08:52 PM This whole matter is further complicated by the fact that people in various parts of the British Isles used to colloquially refer to a man's willie as his John Thomas! This was noted by D.H. Lawrence, who wrote "John Thomas and Lady Jane", later rewritten as "Lady Chatterly's Lover". A fellow writer, one of his female literary colleagues (I wish I could remember her name...she was quite famous), had perused the initial manuscript of the first book and was outraged by its prurient nature. She sarcastically suggested that Lawrence title the book: "John Thomas and Lady Jane" (2 euphemisms that need no further explanation here, I hope...). He took her at her word and DID name it that...he must've had a wicked sense of humour. :-) JT & LJ was actually a better book than its rewrite, "Lady Chatterley's Lover", IMO, but it did not sell one tenth as well for some reason. Famous Musicians? Now there's also Willie Nelson, don't forget! And, Spaw...it is no mystery why Willie is the champion male name of them all in folksongs. I'll give it to you in two words. Two simple words. * * * William Shatner * * * Nothing else really needs to be said. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:49 AM Which is probably exactly why this thread is now quietly dying... (snicker!) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Yorkshire Tony Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:04 AM They were certainly common names but you do get a few odd ones: Tam Lin, Spencer the Rover come to mind I did an experiment on the DTLS and found that there are at least a few references for many common names - even Tony. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:59 AM Yeah Tony.........Back in the trench warfare days of WWI there was a song that could only have come from those pre-politically correct times that went, "When Tony goes over the top, keep your eyes on that fighting wop." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: GUEST,DMcG at work Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:03 AM Trying for a serious-ish answer here, folks! I think it is probably a combination of several factors mentioned above (60% of Scots names..., relatively informal etc) together with two more: a lot of broadside ballads had place names written as J----, or R---- and the ides, I gather, was that you substituted something local. In the basis of no supporting evidence whatever, I would not be surprised if someoe knew of 'John' and 'Willy' being used as 'placeholders' in the same way. Another notable thing about Will/Willy/William is that is equally acceptable with one, two or three syllables and the first two of these have lots of rhymes (as pointed out above). This must make life easier for both the songwriter and a singer with an imperfect memory! |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: GUEST,DMcG at Work Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:14 AM Sorry, I mean Will, Willy and William could all be used within the same song equally readily, which makes life easier for songwriters. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 05 Apr 02 - 06:24 AM Whenever I sing 'Dimming of the Day' at our local session a certain lady falls apart because her dirty mind mishears the line 'Now all my will is gone you hold me sway'. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: The Walrus at work Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:46 PM Attempt at a serious point
I wonder if religion/politics has any influence? Regards Walrus [1] "Sweet William", "Stinking Billy" or "Butcher Cumberland" depending on your leanings. |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: MMario Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:58 PM probably. I've heard that during Edward Tudor's reign many girl children were christened either "Elizabeth Mary" or "Mary Elizabeth" - covering both bases for the succession |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:54 PM Jerry, "jerry" is old railroadese for a track laborer. Whatever he built might serve the purpose, but it wasn't pretty. Now who were Willy and Nilly? |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: GUEST,Eoin O'Buadhaigh Date: 05 Apr 02 - 02:53 PM A very interesting response to this thread! I like MMario's 'Willie / John-Thomas' idea and Tandrink's BLIND concept. Dirty minds!! (I love it)heh heh! AS for GREG _ well I guess you can be thankful your not a Willie. Though I once lived near a man called William Dick. Eoin oh by the way, is it true that William Shatner was a 'mutant_ clingon'? |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 05 Apr 02 - 07:17 PM Dicho, willy-nilly (which is often misued) means "whether he wanted to or not." It is a form meaning willed-he or not-willed-he. Have you ever noticed how often Willies are bad guys in old songs? I have a good friend is who touchy about this (named William, of course.) |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Apr 02 - 07:29 PM My mother was christened Mary Margaret Elizabeth...which even more thoroughly covers all the old time English political bases. It must have been a very traditional family. I note that Spaw and Shatner are now giving each other the silent treatment...each refuses to acknowledge the other's existence. Who will crack first??? - LH |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: masato sakurai Date: 05 Apr 02 - 07:35 PM Levy search (title, first line, chorus of first line) returned 43 "William" songs, 71 "Willie" ones, 5 "Willy" ones. These are outnumbered by "John" (122), "Johnny" (108), "Johnnie" (21); and by "Mary" (292). ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Apr 02 - 08:20 PM Good job Masato....I sure didn't get that many hits on the John variants, but I didn't try Levy either.......And you sure are right about Mary too I bet. Interesting that in the US for the first 50 years of the 20th century, John and Mary were the two most popular names....I wonder how much that influences the Levy Collection? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Willie-O Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:34 AM Because. Just because. Willie-O |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Willie-O Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:34 AM Because. Just because. Willie-O |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: greg stephens Date: 06 Apr 02 - 02:13 PM |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: GUEST,Eoin O'Buadhaigh Date: 06 Apr 02 - 03:02 PM I supose beng a 'Willie' is better than being a 'Dick' If Johnnys and Willies were popular in the middle-ages what was popular before then? The way fashions change what has replaced the Willies of today, or even more worrying what will replace the Willies of the future?? I'm worried and Im not a Willie (nor a Dick) I'm a John (hence the Eoin) am I on my way out? |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: SINSULL Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:01 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Rasener Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:05 AM I'm Henry the eighth I am Henry the eighth I am, I am I got married to the widow next door She's been married seven times before And every one was an Henry (Henry) She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam) I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry Henry the eighth I am |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:35 AM It's all just Willy envy... |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: Rasener Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:42 AM I wonder why she didn't want Henry's Willy? |
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Subject: RE: Why so many Willies? From: the button Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:23 AM Given the number of illegitimate births featured in English traditional song, it's no surprise that there's a Willie or two involved. |
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