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Subject: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,hippie Date: 16 Jun 02 - 06:29 PM Could someone please explain the meaning of this Bob Dylan song to me? There are references to cards but i'm a little lost. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Jun 02 - 07:21 PM Don't worry about it. Sounds like he overdosed. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,hippie Date: 16 Jun 02 - 07:22 PM either that or it has some really deep meaning |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: toadfrog Date: 16 Jun 02 - 07:29 PM Deep meanings are the ones no one ever understands. Profundity and comprehensibility shall never be reconciled! |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Susanne (skw) Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:30 PM I've always suspected it was his way of letting a former girlfriend know she was no longer wanted, in suitably dramatic fashion. I like the song, though. There is a chance it is indeed full of profound meaning ... |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Amos Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:39 PM It is possible the reason he used such colorful images is he thought they would communicate better than trying to reduce them to semantic propositions; so it is pretty much up to you to impose meaning wherever you feel its needed in them, but I would hesitate to say he put any in there to dig around trying to excavate it. None that would sound good in ordinary English, anyway. A |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: hobbitwoman Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:08 PM I've always loved the song, even if I never could figure out what it meant. But that's the way it is for me with most of Mr. Dylan's songs. And at the risk of inciting a riot, I've always thought they sound a lot better when Joan Baez is singing them. But that's just my personal opinion. Annie |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,T-Tone Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:33 PM Right on Amos! The song is full of enigmatic analogies that reflect the tenor of the times when it was written - the turbulant sixties. The query from guest hippie misses the point. Every work of art does not have to have a linear kind of narrative. The best pieces allow the listener, reader, or viewer to engage their own imaginations. The tone of this song is kind of an admission that some situations are helpless to certain resolutions. That sometimes the best answer is to say "I can't do anything about this" so instead I'll write a song. And in this case a song that captures complexities that the medium can allow for and maybe shine some light on. Beautiful song. One of his best. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: FAREWELL ANGELINA (Bob Dylan) From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jun 02 - 12:10 AM They sound absolutely great when Baez sings them...and absolutely great when Bob does...but completely different. That's what is so cool about it. I love 'em both ways. This song became one of Baez' anthems, and deservedly so. No recording of Bob doing it surfaced (officially, that is) until the Bootleg Series in the 90's as far as I recall. It's a truly great piece of poetry.
Farewell Angelina
There's no need for anger
The jacks and queens
See the cross-eyed pirates sitting
King Kong, little elves
The machine guns are roaring
Absolutely gorgeous poetry, with a few unforgettable phrases... What does it mean. Well, a whole lot of things, and none of them exclusively. Dylan often writes using what I call universal images...and this song is full of them. Such images do not have one literal meaning, but link symbolically to many different levels of meaning, and take the listener to whichever level is relevant to that listener. If the listener is incapable of understanding anything other than literal meanings, they don't take him very far...
This song is about the end of something..or of many things. The complete and final end...of a dream, a relationship, a fantasy, a personal or national philosophy, an expectation, a cultural or political or economic age...you name it. It has the feeling (as do so many of Dylan's songs...of a final catastrophic collapse, an apocalypse...whether on a personal or on a larger level.
Throughout the song there are images of the sacred and the profane, in stark contrast to one another...the "bells of the crown" (sacred) are "being stolen by bandits". Does that not say something to you about society or even religion or politics? No? Okay let's try something else.
He follows the sound of what is sacred. The sound is now all that's left, but he follows it. "The sky is on fire" Sounds like an apocalypse to me...
"There's no need for anger, no need for blame" Correct. That is a great spiritual truth, and a great statement. All that was sacred and certain has fallen, and the table is now empty, and the sky is trembling (great fear in people's hearts)...but to cast anger and blame would be of absolutely no avail under such conditions.
The 3rd verse uses playing card images in a very interesting way as symbols, but it is not about playing cards in any literal sense. It is about the departure or demise of the old authority figures and the privileged few, as gypsies (the homeless, the wanderers, the castoffs of society) march through the empty courtyards where the royalty once held sway. And "the sky is folding"...the old hand has been played, found wanting, and is folding...in other words, it's over and done.
There is a lot of allusion to war and chaos in this song, and the "cross-eyed pirates" in the 4rth verse are those who thoughtlessly resort to violence and destruction, because they are too primitive to know what else to do when an old order collapses around them. The neighbours (Joe Ordinary Public?) are equally primitive...they clap and cheer as the shots are fired. (those shots could just as well be nuclear missiles as shotguns). There is much the same feeling in this song as in "Hard Rain's A-gonna Fall" although the style of delivery is gentler by far. The sky's changing colour...yeah, nuclear war can have that effect on the sky all right.
The next verse offers up a truly devastating image. King Kong and the little elves dance madly on the rooftops (open insanity in the midst of disaster), "while the makeup man's hands close the eyes of the dead, not to embarrass anyone"!!! Does that not sound like the ultimate exposure of social hypocrisy? People can die, they can die by the millions...but let's make sure no one is embarrassed...we'll put makeup on the corpses and carefully shut their eyes. Think about the 6 O'Clock News, and how it sanitizes reality for you every day, and reports what is "saleable" (for a brief time) while ignoring what is not.
But...the sky IS embarrassed. The sky is God, the sky is the eye of Truth, and the sky is not fooled.
The last scene returns to scenes of warfare, rock throwing, time bombs...(it's happening like that right now in the Middle East).
A messenger brought you all this. He did it instinctively, not be calculation. Poetry like this is not preplanned, it just happens. He gave voice to what what was not publicly spoken.
Call him any name you like, he will never deny it (cos it makes no difference what you call him anyway...). The sky is erupting, and it's time for him to leave, to go "where it's quiet".
And where is that? Maybe beyond this life. Maybe into Spirit. Maybe just to a peaceful place on this Earth...if one can be found.
And Angelina...she is Bob's eternal muse, she is the Queen of Heaven, she is every man's beloved, and every child's mother, she is whatever female archetype you could care to name. Or she is Bob's last girlfriend at the time, but to say that she is that alone would be trivial.
That's part of what the song is about, and it's about other things too. You could say it's about the end of a relationship if you want to. Do with it what you will. It works for me.
- LH |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jun 02 - 12:27 AM Now Spaw will log on and say "What have ya been smokin', Hawk?!?" or something like that... Yeah, sure, Spaw. You know more than you let on, and I know it. Either that, or you're a total dumbass! :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,hippie Date: 17 Jun 02 - 12:52 AM i love it regardless of it's meaning. I love the way it sounds. But T-Tone I feel you should always try to understand a song before you learn so that you can do it justice. And if I hadn't asked the question none of you would've gotten in to a discussion about it. Thanks everyone for your input. Peace! |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Hrothgar Date: 17 Jun 02 - 05:25 AM Somewhere in the depths I have a memory that relates it to the Spanish Civil War. Can't document that, though. Can somebody in America ask Dylan? |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: KingBrilliant Date: 17 Jun 02 - 06:15 AM Its all image and flavour isn't it? For some reason I always get the impression of a cowardly exit - or maybe a withdrawal from reality - just get on with it, I'm off. Certainly its a song that means many different things, depends who's listening. Little Hawk - thanks for giving us that stupendous interpretation. I kind of feel I've been missing out on most of it until reading that..... KRis |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Pied Piper Date: 17 Jun 02 - 07:58 AM Mr Hawk; spot on. I wish I could have explained it so well. The great thing about this and other Dylan songs is that he can get all this and more into a few lines. As with a lot of his songs there is a resonance with traditional folk song. Come to think of it the other apocalyptic song you mention "Hard Rain" is very influenced by "Lord Randel" and its variants. All the best PP. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: little john cameron Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:07 AM Well done LH.How aboot a run doon oan "Desolation Row" next?ljc |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Amos Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:50 AM Geez, Hawk, that's not what I think it means at all. I think it reflects the relationship between certain eternal verities, the starts and ends of all cycles in life and time, and the strange kind of angst that modern Americans arrive at when they start contemplating nutritional values and the nature of food chains while standing in line holding on to two eight-year-olds at the Dairy Queen. But I guess I am adding more interpretation into it than you did. A |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: allanwill Date: 17 Jun 02 - 10:20 AM Little Hawk I feel like I've just read a long lost Immanuel Velikovsky theory. Allan |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jun 02 - 10:38 AM Amos - Yeah, well it means most of that too, except from where you used the word "nutritional"... :-) Allan - I know exactly what you mean. :-) (again) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,vixen @ work Date: 17 Jun 02 - 10:49 AM Anybody heard Tim O'Brien's version on Red on Blond? I fell in love with the song all over again. V |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Big Tim Date: 17 Jun 02 - 11:06 AM LH strikes again. Well done wee man and thanks. ljc: re Desolation Row - don't encourage him! |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,The Jester Date: 17 Jun 02 - 12:24 PM Oo ee prity scary. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jun 02 - 03:19 PM Thanks, people. I think I did explain Desolation Row once on here at some point way back when...? Hey, Amos, actually your Dairy Queen analogy is a good one. I didn't read it thoughtfully enough the first around. I'll go along with the whole thing... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Art Thieme Date: 17 Jun 02 - 04:14 PM I always thought that Bob Dylan was a luckier person than was Stan Rogers. I say the because when Stan did his songs, the presentation was so "good" that it could never be topped. Stan Rogers NAILED IT every time he sang a song pretty much. Dylan, on the other hand, as we all know, had a less easy-to-listen-to voice. Like strong single malt scotch, he is an acquired taste. His renditions were often wonderful and emotional. But they were very rarely "pretty". Such is life. But I'd bet this is one reason why more folks try to sing, and have recorded/covered, Dylan's songs than Rogers songs. Hell, anyone can do 'em better'n Bob ! Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jun 02 - 04:49 PM You're right about Stan Rogers, Art. His performances were absolutely topnotch, and WHAT a voice! This is also generally true of Joan Baez, whether or not you like her style, and of Buffy Sainte-Marie too...they nail it every time in live performance. Dylan is more unpredictable, although he can be awfully good at times (and just plain awful at others...). However, I think his songs have quite a bit more to chew on in them than what Stan wrote...but there's no use really in comparisons, because they are so completely different in almost every way. There's a grain of truth in saying that people cover Dylan songs because they can do them...but the real reason so many cover him is the incredible universality and scope of his lyrics. There's something there for almost everyone. Stan Rogers wrote wonderfully, but in a narrower bandwith, so to speak. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Art Thieme Date: 17 Jun 02 - 08:48 PM LH---right on. Art |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Big John Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:07 PM So who is this Robert Zimmerframe guy? I love to sing Leonard Coen's "Last Year's Man" but nobody wants to hear it. That's probably because of the depth of poetic mystery found in all of his songs. (Nothing to do with my crap singing, of course.) Perhaps Little Hawk could explain that song for me. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:36 PM I guess sometimes songs are like inkblot tests, LH. About a year ago, flattop gave me his interpretation of this song. He said he thought it was about a man who wasn't taking a nice woman's feelings very seriously, and he was making excuses about it. I couldn't get any meaning from the lyrics at all, so I told him I thought he was probably much better at interpreting Dylan than me. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jun 02 - 10:25 PM Carol - Yes, it could mean that too, actually. It could mean exactly that. I think flattop gave it that interpretation because that was the aspect most relevant to his own life. I tend to often look at social and spiritual issues, so I see those aspects where another might see something else. The song works well in either case. That's what's so fascinating about Dylan's writing, and it's because he uses universal symbols so naturally. They're like basic geometry...they show up everywhere. I don't for a moment think that Dylan deliberately preplans any of this multi-layered stuff...it just happens naturally when he writes. Some people call that genius. I call it divine inspiration, and it's what is at the heart of all great art, and great science too. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Aurore Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:03 AM I think the song is a christian reference to the doomed love of christ (the singer) for the soul of the world or humanity (angelina) No I'm not a christian myself I am a Wiccan so this is not a preach :) Here is my take on it. The song is a riddle. It asks who the singer is and who he is singing to. Verse 1 The bells of the crown being stolen by bandits. - Which crown has bells on? Only a jesters cap not a kings crown. So whats been stolen? Laughter I think. Hapiness. The trumpets playing slow and the trianlge tingling are basicly the rest of the world carrying on as normal watching this theft and doing nothing about it, not even understanding that it matters. The fiery sky is apocalyptic all the way through and means in my view a mushroom cloud shaped ending. Verse 2. No need for blame or anger - because thats not what the Singer was looking for. nothing to prove and evetything still being the same means that nothing has changed. Nothing has been learnt. The table standing empty by the edge of the sea. What is a table for? originally? Well to eat at. Its an invitation to share food and friendship and trust, even love. The table is empty. The invitation was made. No one accepted it. The edge of the sea means extremity i think. The last hope. The trembling sky reinforces this. The jacks and the queens have forsake the courtyard. Jacks and queens are leaders. Kind of. There is no king. If there was a king he was a jester since his jesters crown lost its belles earlier. The courtyard isnt a courtyard its a COURT yard. The royal court. No one is in charge in other words and the place is a madhouse. The fifty two gypsies is the whole of humanity. 52 for the all the cards in the deck (all the weeks of the year too) - theyre gypsies because they have no home, no one is leading them and they dont know where theyre going. They file past the guards though, so they dont have the gypsies freedom. They lost that. As the next phrase shows. The ace and the deuce (the lowest) once ran wild - were free. but not anymore. The sky is folding - its another card reference. folding means to quit - to give up. The sky = god giving up on humanity. farewell angelina = christ saying goodbye to the soul of humanity - the implication is that despite everything the soul is beautiful and he loves it but neither can do anything to stop whats going to happen. A cross eyed pirate perched in the sun. Cross eyed because he cant see what he is doing. A pirate = classicly have an eye patch. Ok means he cant be cross eyed but in this case its a reinforcement. cross eyed and one eyed, cant see well and cant see straight. And he has a sawn off shotgun that he is using to blow away anything near him while the rest of the world watches and cheers despite the stupidity and futility of the exercise. The sky is getting worse and the Singer has to go fast. who wouldnt. King king and the little elves - the highest and the lowest. Everyone in other words again. All of humanity, dance on roofops. pointless and dangerous and insane, while the makeup men hide the corpses so everyone else can pretend there isnt a problem. But the sky - God - can see the problem and is ashamed. also its turning red and its not just because of the blushing. The last verse is outright war, and an insane one. The pupets us, fighting. pupetts because were being used and have no idea what were doing or why were fighting. The fiends are demons. Time bombs to the hands of the clock - the end of the world, the apocalypse, and thats why its demons doing the nailing. call me any name you like, i will never deny it. Means 2 things. First its the point of the song. a riddle. it asks 'who am I? that is singing?' it also means that he is expecting to be insulted and abused but he doesnt blame us for it. He is sad. Then farewell again, this time for the last time because the sky has really gone this time, and I'm pretty sure its mushroom clouds everywhere at this point. He must go where its quiet - back to heaven, and Angelina, our collective soul, the only beauty left is the one who is going to die, not him. He tried to save her but she didnt come to the table which is still empty back in verse 3. Thats what i think anyway :) Aurore |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Leadfingers Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:34 AM I have long been of the opinion that Bob Dylan started pushing the envelope on his 'Modern Poetry' to see how far he could go before the critics said he was writing very clever gibberish . However , this NEVER happened , they continued working out all sorts of intricate meanings to his songs , so he gave up the game and went back to writing 'proper' songs again . |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Callie Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:45 PM this is one of the first "pop" songs I learnt. I was 12 and taking guitar lessons in the early 80s and my guitar teacher was an enlightened fellow who taught me about Neil Young, (imagine explaining "every junkie's like a setting sun" to a 12 yr old! Kids were more innocent in those days - or maybe I was just more innocent!), Dylan, David Bowie and more his explanation of "Farewell Angelina" was that there had been a nuclear explosion and the world was ending. The sky is on fire. The sky is embarrassed etc. I've never questioned that reading! Show of Hands did a nice version recently-ish. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,mg Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:04 PM I think it was on the same record as Saigon Bride wasn't it? I always associate it with him going to Vietnam..mg |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Peter T. Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:26 AM Like a lot of Dylan's lyrics, this one is a mess, but as Little Hawk says, evocative. Why the guy couldn't spend another two minutes making the thing grammatical ("forsaked?"), and getting rid of the clunky rhythms, is so exasperating. And how many years did it take him to get rid of all that cute pseudo-Rimbaud stuff, King Kong and playing cards and pirates and the edge of the sea? (not to mention other standard fillers like -- I must be going.....)? But as sung, it is magnificent..... (I always hated Joan Baez' version, so to hear his on the bootleg was great). yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Paddy Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM No one has mentioned that the melody is a Scottish traditonal song call Fareweel tae Tarwathie. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: banjoman Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:55 AM A great song and I still have my old 45 of Joan Baez singing it although the words are slightly different in some places to those listed here. Still it dosn't alterthe song in any great way |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Fran Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:02 PM I loved Derek Bimstone's vesion of this |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Oz Childs Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:02 AM One of Dylan's greatest songs,and it means nothing at all, and yet everything, because it describes a dream that anyone with Dylan's background might have had -- of a jester with bells (which were stolen), of a deck of cards left defenseless when the leaders surrendered, of fiends nailing time bombs to the hands of the clocks. Like a few other songs of that era, it will survive precisely because it is not limited to the politics of the era, and people will find meaning in it a century after it was written. Like Blake's "Tyger, Tyger", and in a way, like a lot of Alice in Wonderland. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Barbara Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:22 AM Rani Arbo and Daisy Mayhem do a really amazing -- and different interpretation of this song. On her CD Big Old Life. You can hear a clip here: Rani Arbo Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Dave Hanson Date: 12 Nov 09 - 02:31 AM That was bloody awful, a fine song diminished just to be different. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: ard mhacha Date: 12 Nov 09 - 06:10 AM Joan at her best, brilliant.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmWRnbxACH0 |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST Date: 04 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM There is though something else - the sound. In every verse there is a different picture of a part from a somewhat big city, much like the one in "The nutscracker", inhabited by all kinds of magical creatures. But there's also the sound, of course. Verse 1: bells; follow the sound; triangle tingles, trumpets play. V 2: the sea; trembling. V 3: file past the guards; ran wild. V 4: shooting tin cans; clap; cheer; blast. V 5: King Kong and the elves dance tangos. V 6: the machine guns are roaring; heave rocks; clocks; erupting. Can you imagine all the noise, it's like a blast - all kinds of noise just surround you and bring you down. The sounds come with such aggretion that you probably won't be able to stay on your feet - it is a madhouse indeed. And finally, "i must go where it's quiet". If you remember the triptych by Hieronymus Bosch "The Garden of eartly delights" you can find many similarities - the Garden on Earth is noisy, crouded, aggresive etc. and the Garden of Eden is a place "where it's quiet". Empousa |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Elinaanela Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM My dad gave me Angelina as my middle name in 1966. What a heavy load! |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Jim McLean Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:10 PM Listen to the song here, written about 150 years ago Farewell |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Suegorgeous Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:36 PM Peter T - "forsaken" wouldn't have scanned so well. I've always liked this song because of the rich pictures and strong images it evokes. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Mo the caller Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:59 AM It has echoes of WH Auden's poem 'Oh What is that Sound'. click and scroll down Was that the one that was about the Spanish Civil War? |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: David C. Carter Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:37 AM I don't know why, but this song always conjures up an image of a black and white Salvador Dali painting. A lot of his songs bring colors to mind. Anyway,havig said that,I shall be seeing the doc first thing Monday morning! |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Johnmc Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM Have just listened to Celtic Connections Dylan concert. Some decent performances but not one anywhere as good as the original (and I mean the vocals !) |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:04 PM Thanks for the old song jim. I never knew it. The judy Collins version there, with whale song, was a spine tingler. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,biff Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:47 PM just a table standing empty/by the edge of the sea great surrealist line there |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: Art Thieme Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:31 PM Uh, Biff, I'm thinking there is nothing surreal there at all. It's pure realism---and it concerns Joan and Bob going their separate ways. |
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