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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,ticket seller Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:13 AM Thankyou for this fascinating thread about one of the great anthemic songs of my youth. I like the Baez version best but love it in general. I used to use it sometimes as a General Studies 6th Form lesson - trying to get to the bottom of its meaning... I always suspected I lacked sufficient general knowledge really to understand it. I would LOVE to know Dylan's analysis but will no doubt never get that - still its sound and imagery will haunt me for ever. Thanks again! |
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Subject: RE: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,biff Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM Uh, Art, refer also to Blonde on Blonde lyric "you know it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine." Same deft appropriation of surrealist imagist aesthetic married to a modernist rock lyric. Obviously you haven't checked out your Dali or Magritte. Joan and Bob?????don't see a point to point correspondence in your analysis. But, hey, if it works for you at least you're digging it. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,me Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:06 AM It's always struck me as expressing the feelings of the draftees who fled to Canada rather than fight in an unjust war in Vietnam. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 12 - 02:24 AM I think Aurore did a good in depth analysis. I wondered if the bells of The Crown might be the bells from the palace (belonging to The Crown) stolen with no one to stop them, from the highest in the land (ie anarchy reigns) plus bells were used in times of danger (no more warnings wil be possible) or at times of rejoicing (there will be no more occasions for this.)I dont want to disect every word but I like what I sing to have some meaning and all these images have helped me make sufficient sense tp sing it AND I love the tune.Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Bonzo3legs Date: 07 Feb 12 - 05:44 AM Of course they might just be words that rhyme!! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Feb 12 - 08:05 AM You hate Joan Baez' version of this song, Peter T???????? Well, my good sir, I suggest that your seconds meet with my seconds and we shall arrange to settle this matter of honour with utmost despatch at some location to be decided upon by both parties! Pistols or swords? ;-D |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Tim Leaning Date: 07 Feb 12 - 08:42 AM |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Don Wise Date: 07 Feb 12 - 09:16 AM I vaguely recall someone saying that "Farewell Angelina" is Dali, or perhaps Magritte, put to music so, if you understand surrealism.........(I don't) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Calum Date: 07 Feb 12 - 09:26 AM I think a lot of Dylan's songs written around this period are simply songs about the people he was involved with and the changes in relationships that happened as he went from a nobody to a major star. The bells of the crown is the inheritance of folk music he received as a young man and the bandits are the exploiters of the music industry. As an aside, having watched people grow from talented young performers into polished music industry professionals, it's pretty easy to discern a lot of the intelligent cynicism behind a lot of his lyrics from this period. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Feb 12 - 09:48 AM Well put, Calum. I think virtually all of Dylan's songs are basically a snapshot of how he was feeling on the day he wrote the song. They are a series of images that carry the strongest feelings that were moving through him at that moment. His gift is that he just goes with the images as they arise spontaneously and he doesn't intellectually question the process. He doesn't second guess himself. That results in very evocative and powerful writing that doesn't follow the usual "rules" laid down in rigid and literal minds which are not in the least concerned with responding to the feelings in the song, but insist on analyzing everything to death like counting how many Angels can sit on the head of a pin. Because Dylan's lyrics arise directly out of the many (and sometimes quite contradictory) feelings that are going through him when he writes the songs, they connect to many different things that are happening both in his life and around him...so they work on many levels simultaneously. I think your interpretation is a good one, and it relates to at least two of those levels...personal relationships and the music business impacting the folk music. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Feb 12 - 10:01 AM One of THE versions I've ever heard is by Tim O'Brien. Likely on Youtube. I heard someone in response to a question about one of his songs say that if you have to ask, you won't understand the answer. Art is a different way of knowing. Holds true in all the arts, imo. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Feb 12 - 10:25 AM The following is a brief quote from an article about Gardner's Multiple Intelligences: "Bruner identified three major classes of knowing: iconic, enactive, and symbolic (Bruner, et al., 1967). Iconic was linked to the ways of knowing central to the visual and spatial arts; enactive knowing framed the wisdom of movement, kinesthetic action, and dance; and symbolic represented the realm of reason and reductive logic (Samples, 1992). Schools have depended primarily on the symbolic and have measured intelligence in terms of achievement in this realm." |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Feb 12 - 10:38 AM Aha! Yes, that's important. Words are just symbols for things that are beyond the abilities of words to truly express...though they attempt to express it, of course. A symbol is a signpost that points toward the truth...but the truth is what we really want and what we seek. To experience inner feeling is to experience truth in a direct way. You then come up with words (symbols) so you can talk about that inner feeling to someone else, but only direct experience of the feeling will bring it home to you. To sing is to channel inner feeling. The words become the outer symbols that contain the energy, but without the feeling to animate them the words would be meaningless. The music directly channels the feeling, as does the voice and the rythm. The words are a step removed from all that. They are mental symbols added after the fact. This society is overly concerned with mental symbols, and needs to get in touch more with the powerful underlying reality out of which the mental symbols arise. Logic and talk and calculation won't get you there. Inner feeling and direct experience of reality will. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Johnmc Date: 07 Feb 12 - 11:20 AM Somewhere in the dark recesses I had a notion there was a Dali painting, and there is: A TABLE IN FRONT OF THE SEA - Homage to Sati Don't know what this adds, mind you. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST Date: 10 May 12 - 10:32 PM i think it's about the Holocaust |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Arkie Date: 11 May 12 - 04:22 PM So many moments of insight here, I am reluctant to add another comment, but I did not see any reference to the meaning of the name Angelina. The meaning of the name may or may not be relevant, but the name has been related to "messenger", "messenger of God", "angel", and "little angel". |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST Date: 25 Jun 12 - 09:29 PM The song was from the time of the Vietnam war and soldiers were drafted and "stolen by bandits" you may say when they got back anti-war folk called them names and soldiers didn't always get warm welcome. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST,Glynis Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:16 PM I always thought this was about a civil war! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: FreddyHeadey Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:03 PM There is a reasonable (to me) stab at an explanation here http://bob-dylan.org.uk/archives/1746#comment-311867 Sam the Sham says: This might be my favourite Dylan song and I think I owe it to everyone to explain what the song means. "Farewell Angelina – Essentially the beginning of a goodbye love letter from the dead. The bells of the crown – The bells are a metaphor for a reason to start a war but bells are also musical which ties into the next sentence. Are being stolen by bandits – Again the reason for war. The bandits are the other side who started the war. I must follow the sound – The sound is of a funeral march The triangle tingles – A musical reference to a funeral march And the trumpet play slow – A musical reference to a funeral march Farewell Angelina – The sky is on fire – The war is starting And I must go There's no need for anger -Let's enjoy our final time together There's no need for blame – The decision wasn't up to me. Let's not fight during my last moments with you There's nothing to prove – We know we love each other. We don't need to say it Everything's still the same – At this point in time, nothing has chanced Just a table standing empty – However our future metaphorical table is empty. Because he will be dying. By the edge of the sea – The sea represents time as well as the fact the war is over in Europe where he takes a ship Farewell Angelina – The sky is trembling – The personification of his feeling onto the sky And I must leave – But this is his duty The jacks and queens -metaphor for politicians Have forsaken the courtyard – the are making the decisions. Forsake is a negative word Fifty-two gypsies Now file past the guards – cards are a metaphor for gambling. We can assume the soldiers are the gypsies practicing in front of the gards In the space where the deuce And the ace once ran wild. He is saying in the past the card game of choice was Ace and Deuce Wild. What he is saying is gambling has always taken place here. Farewell Angelina – The sky is folding – Again personification of the sky with a another card metaphor when he uses the word folding. Folding is the disbelief that the sky is in or god for the horror. I'll see you in a while – This is likely in reference to that he will see her in heaven. See the cross-eyed pirates sitting – Dylan is establishing that people at home are pirates a negative connotation Perched in the sun – To them the war is bliss Shooting tin cans – Essentially they are enjoying war. We saw people excited in WWI for the prospect of war With a sawed-off shotgun – A sawed off shot gun would show their low class. And the neighbors they clap – Again excitement for war And they cheer with each blast – People at home love war Farewell Angelina The sky's changing color – A new somber mood And I must leave fast – He just left King Kong, little elves – We all have an image in our head how king kong is being attacked by planes etc on a building. On the rooftops they dance – King Kong is on a rooftop they are all dancing a euphimism for fighting Valentino-type tangos – This is another dance metaphor for fighting. While the make-up man's hands -hand to hand combat Shut the eyes of the dead – One of Dylan's best lyrics ever. What Dylan is saying here is that people are dying in war but he feels bad for the dead. He wants to shut their eyes so they are not embarrassed to have died for such a useless purpose. Not to embarrass anyone – The dead would be embarrassed if they saw this. Farewell Angelina – The sky is embarrassed – God and everyone is embarrassed And I must be gone – He is already there so this means he knows he will die. The camouflaged parrot, he flutters from fear -camouflage is a metaphor for someone in the army. Typically people in the army wear camouflage gear. A parrot repeats what is told of them. Therefore army soldiers are camouflaged parrots according to Dylan. When something he doesn't know about suddenly appears – The parrot is the guy singing the song. Someone appears out of nowhere. AKA some enemy soldiers appears What cannot be imitated perfect must die – His training wasn't perfect and he will die here Farewell Angelina, the sky is flooding over and I must go where it is dry – Could be a reference to blood and getting out of the battle. Basically his corporal will take him out and he is in the hospital. Or sky flooding over could be the fact the sky is getting darker and he is getting closer to death. The machine guns are roaring – battle continues The puppets heave rocks – Before they were parrots who repeat now the soldiers are puppets controlled by higher powers. Rocks can be grenades or bombs. The fiends nail time bombs – A time bomb would be in reference to the length of time to die To the hands of the clocks -I think Dylan is saying that the soldiers are clocks AKA they have a lifespan. Also I think a clock could be in reference to a tombstone. Call me any name you like – His lover can say anything to him now I will never deny it – He can't defend himself because he is dead. Farewell Angelina – The sky is erupting – War is terrible I must go where it's quiet – Rest in Peace |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:03 PM Oh God, don't you just LOVE those threads that try to "explain" song lyrics! I can't do links, but there's a classic one here (probably a lot more than one, but this is one of my favourites). Search for "Help: Bright Blue Rose" on Mudcat! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Andrez Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:59 PM Chaos theory talks about 'points of view' as opposed to 'viewing point'. Applied here this suggests there is no right or wrong interpretation as our views are essentially a function of our own values and beliefs contextualised more broadly in the world we have experienced and live in presently. The combined impact of these elements determine the stance we take in relation to the 'meaning' of any given song. Personally, I like Little Hawks analysis above and certainly enjoyed the diversity and mystery arising from the Bright Blue Rose discussion: thread.cfm?threadid=16284 Cheers, Andrez |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:37 PM Well his analysis is an attempt to explain something using words that he doesn't think he can really explain in words. There's something that doesn't really work for me there. Words are a totally human invention. Clumsy, approximate and strained in turn, at times. Ninety percent of poetry, Shakespeare and song lyrics just don't do it for me at all (the other ten percent is pure, spun gold - I'm not that much of a philistine). I was force-fed Wordsworth at school and I think he was so up his own bum that he had very little to say to real human beings. Jesus, how easily conditioned we are. Music is a different kettle of fish. Music can't really complement words other than being a vehicle for them. Music as a language (wrong word as it happens) is totally alien to words. It's a different emotional phenomenon. Words can't describe what music does to us. Once you free music from the constraint of verbal description, you've liberated it forever. If you listen to Bach, Beethoven or Mozart and say that you find bits of it happy, sad, gloomy, regal, portentous, whatever, you're denying the music its real channel of communication to you. Once you let it have its own way of getting to you without the need for the banality of words to describe it, well your reward won't be in heaven, your reward will BE heaven. Works for me anyway! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning: Farewell Angelina From: GUEST Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:18 PM or both. |
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