Martin Guitars again!

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:58 PM

I think HPL is pretty much the same as Pergo flooring.

I got one of those Little Martins because it's a handy size and I figure it's indestructable. The only thing I don'tl ike is the imitation wood finish. It's a good imitation, but it's an imitation. I wish I'd waited a few months till the all-black one came out. Picky, I suppose.

clint

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: CraigS
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 05:39 PM

Martin are successfully diversifying - not a bad thing, and they are getting into the budget market that Kay and Harmony used to carve up between them in the US. Try those top end Kays that were available in the 60s, and you'll find that sound is not a strong point - and the top end Harmony guitars are not much better, although you can sometimes find a good one. If you are careful you will simply realise that you are buying a very good budget guitar with Martins' lower ranges, and that Martin have realised that using their name and building guitars close to home (to control quality) is a better strategy than their previous attempts to build their budget ranges under other names in Europe (they lost a lot of money there) and the Far East. Plywood is not a fair description of laminated back and sides - it does make manufacture quick and easy, but the solid top is still there on all but the cheapest range, and that is where the sound really comes from. At least Martin are still a family concern, and I am sure CF Martin IV still cares what happens in his factory! While I remember to mention it those HD models have shaved braces and should only be used with light strings. And if you want to replace that Corian nut, be aware that it is a risky business to replace any Martin nut - they don't glue them in, they weld them to the wood! If you HAVE to do it, saw away as much as possible with a fine tooth back saw, and remove the remaining material very carefully by paring with a chisel. Don't just stick the chisel in and crack it with the hammer, or you get the end of the fingerboard and part of the head veneer as well!

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:07 AM

The Martin DM is probably the best value for money Martin you can buy, but maybe that's not such an endorsement.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:36 AM

The Martin DM is probably the best value for money Martin you can buy, but maybe that's not such an endorsement.

Respectfully disagree.

I'd call the 000-15S the best dollar value Martin's now making - and that is an endorsement.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:38 PM

I'd have to agree that th OOO15S is the best deal going. Great guitars, if you can handle the extra width on the neck!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

What extra width? 1 3/4" at nut is The Minimum Correct Width for a (steel-string) guitar neck. My Collings is 1 13/16 and it works just fine for me. The idea of 1 11/16" being desirable must have been promulgated by some Martin CEO in the past who had little skinny fingers...

Peter.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:52 PM

Peter, It's still just a frog's hair wider than most guitars, and for some it feels awkward. Not to me though. Still my favorite new Martin model.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:01 PM

I just looked up the 00015-S on the Martin website. Aesteticly a very pleasing instrument.
I'm sure the topic's been beat to death in other threads , but whats the advantage (or disadvantage) of the slotted headstock vs a regular one?

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM

Usually the slotted headstocks are 12 fret models - the bridge is located in a more central psition. And most folks will tell you that it improves the tone - a lot.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:37 PM

Usually the slotted headstocks are 12 fret models - the bridge is located in a more central psition. And most folks will tell you that it improves the tone - a lot.

Definitely agree. Not only the tone but the power.

There are several theories as to why this is.

1: Wesley's, above. Since the body is longer and the neck shorter on a 12-fret than a 14 fret, given the same scale, the bridge ends up closer to the middle of the body, where the vibration can be picked up better by the top.

2: Simply the fact that a 12-fret body has greater volume than a 14-fret the same "size," even though it may not look any bigger. Thus moving more air, thus making more sound.

3: (This is the only one where the slotted head is directly relevant) The idea that the strings make a sharper angle over the nut on a slothead, putting more "down" pressure on the nut, thus transmitting vibration more effectively from the string to the guitar at that end.

I don't know which is the truth. I suspect they all contribute. But I would swear that, other factors (size, quality of wood, quality of workmanship) being equal, a 12-fret will almost always have a fuller and more powerful tone than a 14.

All IMNSHO, of course.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:59 PM

I looked at the 000-15S in the Elderly catalog.

Slotted headstocks are a matter of taste. For me, they still look like a classical guitar.

I'm just curious about the volume thing. Seems to me bluegrass players are always looking for volume. Why does it seem you never see a bluegrass player playing a D28S?

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: CraigS
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:18 PM

Slotted head was the best way to make tuners work smoothly until someone (Kluson, I think) devised the free-standing post tuner in the 30s, which made it economical to use a solid head. Solid head was traditional (like on flamenco guitars with friction pegs), then came geared tuners needing the bearing surfaces both sides of the slot to stop the shafts from bending over, then some top-line guitars used a solid head with planetary banjo tuners (expensive), then most of the better quality guitars were made with a solid head and the cheapos used the old-style tuners with slots because that was the cheapest solution. Nowadays the cost of making the tuners has dropped, the cost of cutting slots has risen, and the solid head is the cheapest solution! Me, I don't think it affects tone much at all - as far as I can see there's a minimum angle from the nut to the tuner required to prevent buzzing, and once you exceed that angle you get no tonal change.
12 fret neck, as opposed to a 14 fret on the same body design, gives a more balanced sound - not as bass-heavy and a thicker middle. Bridge position is the main factor for the sound difference.
But in the case of the most obvious example - 12 fret slot head Martin 000 guitars (24.9" scale) were not as sought after as Martin OM models (000 size, 25.4" scale, 14 frets), which were (and are) sought after for their tonal difference from the standard 000 models (24.9" scale, 14 frets). The bridge position differs from the standard model by about 0.35" on the OM, and by over an inch on the 12 fret! I do not understand these preferences - if anybody does, please tell!

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:12 AM

Actually the 12 fret OOO's are long scale guitars(25.4").

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Justa Picker
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 12:06 PM

I have yet to play any Martin slothead that actually stayed in tune for more than 3 minutes of playing.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM

Justa Picker - I have a friend with the Merle Haggard model Martin - a 12 fret slothead with a cutaway - and he hasn't had any trouble keeping it in tune. Your milage may vary of course.

And Martin - You said
"I'm just curious about the volume thing. Seems to me bluegrass players are always looking for volume. Why does it seem you never see a bluegrass player playing a D28S?"

I suspect a lot of it is just tradition. Mandolin players play F-5's because Bill Monroe played one. I suspect bluegrass guitar players do the same thing. "If it was good enough for Lester Flatt it's good enough for me". I also suspect that many of them feel the need to have those extra two frets - even though they may never use them.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GLoux
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:53 PM

I think changing strings is somewhat more difficult with a slot head, both taking off a string and putting on a new one. Just takes a little more patience. If you tend to frequently break strings while in performance, this could be an issue to consider.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM

Norman Blake has been playing 12 frets lately, OOO and sometimes smaller. With the new amplification technology a Dreadnought isn't necessarily the 1st choice(aside from tradition, of course).

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Maurice
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:41 PM

The start of this thread was about Martins making the fingers sore....A problem I find is that Martin frets are very low, so you need to "squeeze" a bit harder. There is probably a good reason for this but I certainly call it a bad feature. Even very small differences in fret height, neck width, etc. can have a big effect on "playability".

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GLoux
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:49 PM

From Tim O'Brien's web site:

Tim's Guitar - A Collings Dreadnaught

This slotted headstock dreadnaught is made by Collings Guitars in Austin Texas. I've always loved the look and the sound of this type of instrument. The sloping shoulders disguise the fact that the 25 and 3/4 inch scale (from nut to bridge saddle) is the same length as normal dreadnaughts. The fingerboard meets the body at the 12th fret instead of the more normal 14th fret. Sure it's harder to play up past the twelfth fret, but as a lot of country players know, there's not much money past the 5th fret anyway! The advantage to this design is a little more top surface, as well as the increased angle behind the nut that the slotted headstock features. It has a wide fingerboard, which I love for finger style playing. Collings small factory makes some of the finest acoustic guitars you can purchase these days. They are also making some fine mandolins. In fact a Tim O'Brien model is in the works - watch for them to be available in limited production very soon. It will be a black top A-5 mandolin, in the style of my old standby Nugget mandolin, with custom fine tuning and finish by Mike Kemnitzer of Nugget mandolins.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GLoux
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:51 PM

My point: A slotted headstock played by one of the highest profile bluegrass musicians around. Isn't he the head of the IBMA?

-Greg

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,bobdoe99
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 08:14 PM

i bought my new martin guitar today, the D15 model, ive been playing guitars for over 20 years and this is the worst guitar i have ever had, the action of the strings is way too high, the strength of the guitar is very bad, it looks good but thats about it. needless to say im taking it back to the dealer. 660 pounds for a shit guitar....i dont think so. give me back EKO ANYDAY, cheap but excellent guitars

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: nager
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 09:50 PM

That's a shame:

I bought a D15 here in Australia about three years ago and have found it to be excellent. I had it set up correctly by the store's repair man. This meant medium guage strings, action lowered and bone nut and saddle to replace the plastic ones. The tone and quality improved out of this world and just keeps getting better and better with more use.
Most people I have corresponded with on the Net - via the Martin Unofficial Guitar site and other places - sing its praises.
So do other people who hear it and those (few)I allow to play it.
Martin often sets the action high on its guitars but a good guitar shop will fix all this up to suit your needs.
It really is a light guitar to hold, but its strength is fine and volume very high.
But everyone to their own. If you are not hapy with your purchase best thing is to take it back and replace it with something else.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:57 PM

Gloux

Name 2-3 others in bluegrass who play a slotted headstock.

'1' is not an example. It is an exception.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Steve-o
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:43 PM

'One' certainly is "an example". Look it up in your Funk & Wagnalls. Other examples would be Peter Rowan, Tom Sauber, and the previously mentioned Norman Blake. MOST Bluegrassers don't play guitars with slotted headstocks, true, because most Dreadnought bodies feature solid pegheads.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:46 PM

Of course. Those mentioned are a few exceptions to MOST.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM

Most traditional bluegrass guitar players play 14-fret dreads because the original bluegrass guitar players played 14-fret dreads, because bluegrass got started in the late '40s and early '50s, and there weren't any 12-fret dreads being made at that time - by Martin, anyway, and a bluegrass guitarist always played a Martin, in that time period. (Run-on sentence? Me?! You jest, of course!)

As a matter of sheer logic, a 12-fret dread would make more sense for traditional bluegrass guitar, which is just bass-chord rhythm with a lot of base runs. But custom and tradition rule in bluegrass, not logic.

Modern bluegrass guitar players often take lead breaks, so they use the whole neck, and need the extra frets.

So both groups use the 14-fretters, for two different reasons.

I think.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:04 PM

This morning on the Fine Living channel, there was a program called The Genuine Article which investigate various renowned product. The topic this morning was fine acoustic guitars, especially Martins. They visited the factory, showing many of the specialized crafts practiced there and gave a good review of what to look for in an acoustic guitar. They dealt with other makes too, but only visited the Martin facility and Mandolin Brothers.

It was a good program to watch over my morning coffee and eggs.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 09:48 PM

The Martin Carthy 00018 model has a zerro fret ( something martin was loth to do ) but the guitar is very nice to play !!! . It also came with heaveier strings due to playing in open tunings . ( Carthy plays with the base string down to C) Heaveir strings tuned up are pulled tighter and so are harder to push down . Along those lines<><><><> For the fun of it some time try a set of light strings instead of your ex-light and tune down a whole note to get easeir playing .Also Your are having an easier time at the third fred because you are getting away from the peghead nut . tuned down and capoed at the second fret will also help make the instroment easier to play till you get more used to it .. All the best ,
          Myself I love higher action for concert work . Sounding an instroment takes on another demention when you think of filling a room and connecting with that couple in the back row who are still chatting each other up . All the best , guy

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Joan Holcomb
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:31 AM

I own a CEO-5 Martin guitar and I play BLUEGRASS music. The Sound is there when you need it and it has a great sound. I take lead breaks all the time and I have had alot of people tell me how great it sounds and it stays in tune very well, but I don,t try to beat the hell out of it either. It is loud enough so I don"t have too! I have calluses so playing isn't bad for me.I have been playing for years .I'll never play anything but a Martin. Only the tough can play a martin. It's a great instrument. Also, for those that don't know what a CEO-5 is, It's a 12-fret, has a bearclaw spruce top, sapalo back and sides, mother-of-pearl around the soundhole, slotted headstock and herringbone around the body.If you ever see one try it! Keep on Jammin'& Lovin' it.   Joan

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: kendall
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 01:03 PM

I think we should all thank Taylor, Collings, Santa Cruz and Larrivee for forcing Martin to go back to building fine guitars. They got lazy and sloppy in the 70's but now they are hard at work to maintain their reputation. They can no longer take thinking pickers for granted.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Smitty
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:57 PM

Can anyone give me information on a Martin Resonator Guitar

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:06 PM

Smitty - I've never seen one - but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Have you checked Martin website ? Or the Martin guitar forum ?