BS: Just Kidding?

Subject: Just Kidding?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 12:24 PM

Here is an article for general consumption, found at the MSN/Monster.com website today. I thought it appropriate to post in light of the current debate about "socially acceptable humor" in the workplace. I think there are correlations which could be used to good effect here.

And I expect certain members who find any contribution by anon guests to be immediately suspect, will let us all know how tyrannically PC and prudish this article is. There seem to be a lot of people who inhabit Mudcat who don't face today's workplace on a daily basis, who appear to have some problems getting their heads around the contemporary social standards of "acceptable humor". Maybe reading about it will help them understand where some of us who are still negotiating the "acceptable humor" standards on a daily basis, in adult company, are coming from. Or not.

Just Kidding?

Reconciling Humor with Respect by Sondra Thiederman, PhD Laughter is a great antidote for workplace stress and tedium. Jokes, humor and teasing all create a light atmosphere in which teams are formed, friendships cemented, and energy and productivity increased. That is, if the jokes, humor and teasing are not at the expense of any one group of employees. Jokes, for example, that denigrate women, minorities or gay people can be hurtful, divisive and, in the worst cases, grounds for discrimination suits. Managers and employees face the challenge of encouraging respect for diversity without stifling the levity we all crave in our fast-paced lives.

Many employees have resisted changing the nature of their humor, because they never understood why particular jokes were a problem. After all, they reason, if no member of the targeted group is within earshot, no harm done. What they forget is you never know who can hear the joke from another room or will learn through the grapevine that the offending comment was made. Also, how do you know someone who is listening is in fact not a member of the group being joked about? It is impossible to know, for example, whether someone is gay or has an ethnic or racially mixed heritage.

But there is an even more important reason for avoiding potentially offensive humor. Let's assume that the people who hear the joke or comment are not of the group being joked about, no team member from the group will ever know the joke has been told and the people listening have no negative feelings about what has been said. Even under these unlikely circumstances, there is still a problem. Telling potentially offensive jokes and comments sends a message to all team members, regardless of gender, race or background, that your workplace is one in which it is acceptable to make fun of people and respect for individuals of all backgrounds is not truly valued. That is the single most important reason to make an effort to use humor that does not depend on denigrating particular groups.

Another element confusing the issue is that sometimes women and minorities tell jokes about themselves and even laugh when others tell them. The logic is clear and understandable: "If they can tell those jokes, why can't I?" It may surprise you to hear it is no more acceptable for a member of a group to tell a joke about the group than it is for a nonmember. No matter who is telling the joke, the behavior contributes to an atmosphere of disrespect and discomfort.

Also, the fact that a person laughs at an inappropriate joke does not necessarily mean he or she is comfortable. Think about it. Have you ever gone along with a comment or joke that upset you just because you did not want to appear judgmental or uptight? All people are prone to do this, especially when they feel left out or at a disadvantage. The last thing any person who feels like an outsider wants to do is separate himself further by not going along with the program. If you recall a time when you were the outsider, you will no doubt remember the same urge to blend in and ignore offensive comments or behavior.

Subject: RE: Just Kidding?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 12:32 PM

I am reminded of the joke about the Englishman, the Irishman and the Scotsman who were debating the ethics of racial humor ....

Murray

Subject: RE: Just Kidding?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 12:56 PM

I'm reminded of all the hoo-rah and stink that goes on in workplace regarding men's (theoretical)comments about women - but when I complain about the constant man-bashing that actually occurs I'm told "get a sense of humour" - with the additional comment - "men - they're so childish - can't take a joke"

"If you recall a time when you were the outsider, you will no doubt remember the same urge to blend in and ignore offensive comments or behavior."

Hell no!

Subject: RE: Just Kidding?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 01:37 PM

Having a bad day, Mmario?

Subject: RE: Just Kidding?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 03:22 PM

"It may surprise you to hear it is no more acceptable for a member of a group to tell a joke about the group than it is for a non-member. No matter who is telling the joke, the behavior contributes to an atmosphere of disrespect and discomfort."

It looks to me as if the word "group" is being used in two senses in that sentence. If it just means within a mixed group at work, fair enough - but if it means that a bunch of Black, or Jewish, or Catholic, or Irish etc, friends aren't entitled to joke among themselves, and about themselves, that's a step too far. And when you take a step too far you fall over the edge.

And Mmario is right on about the way in which stereotype joking and sneering at men on the part of many women can seem to escape the kind of self-scrutiny and challenge that is mentioned in the article. ("Having a bad day Mary" is just the kind of put-down some men are only to make to a woman who raises those kinds of issues.)

(Incidentally what's with "Sondra Thiederman PhD" ? Surely people haven't taken to putting their degrees down on their posts?)

Subject: RE: Just Kidding?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 03:30 PM

I laugh at ethnic jokes - if they're funny - but I don't tell them AT WORK. That is the difference, to me...

Subject: RE: Just Kidding?
From: beadie
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 03:38 PM

I have more fun at the expense of people who list their degrees than members of any particular ethnic group.

My favorite comeback to an unnecessarily protracted signature block is to include GSG and HSG after my name on the reply.

GSG stands for grade school graduate: HSG for high school graduate.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 05:29 PM

It wasn't a post, but a cut & paste of an article, with the author's name as it appeared at the Monster.com website.

Mrrzy, so for you, you don't tell offensive jokes at work only because you would have to pay a price for it, ie some kind of repurcussion you don't want to deal with (like getting written up, reprimanded, etc) but otherwise you do tell offensive jokes?

Also, you made another interesting distinction--you will laugh at an offensive joke at work, but not tell one--is that correct? Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 06:37 PM

Mrrzy wrote "I laugh at ethnic jokes" not "I laugh at offensive jokes." "Ethnic" does not mean the same as "offensive". No more in humour than in food. Sometimes it's offensive sometimes it's not.

And everybody is "ethnic" - it goes with being a human being. (Well, it probably goes with being a mammal...or a vertebrate.)

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: Bert
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 07:03 PM

...or a vertebrate... or maybe even an invertebrate if we wish to include a certain GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 07:19 PM

True enough.

I take it you refer to the quality of being spineless?

But used that way, I suggest that's a vertebrist insult of the kind we really need to avoid. So unfair to those heroic squid who do battle with giant whales in the deep. Or the gallant hosts of lobsters who parade up and down the sea-bed challenging all comers...

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: smallpiper
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 07:24 PM

Do I detect double standards at play? I agree with Mzzry, having been in a minority, ethnic and religeous for most of my life who the hell is this Phd to tell me what I should or should not laugh at? If its funny I laugh if its offensive I might laugh or I migh take exception it depends on the circumstances and the intention of the person telling the joke and of course how delicate and sensitive I'm feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 07:28 PM

PhDs are a minority subject to ridicule as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: musicmick
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 03:36 AM

Not to put too fine a point on it, humor is often derisive. It is, also, a way to make sense of a senseless world in which we are as different as we are alike. I am a musician. Am I to forbid musician jokes in my presence? The offensive nature of a joke is determined by two factors, the intent and attitude of the teller and the potentialy offended listener's sense of security. When I hear a musician joke or a bridge player joke, I am unlikely to take offence because I do not feel threatened by the steryotyping that is the basis for group or ethnic jokes. On the other hand, if I heard a Jew joke or a fat joke, I would have to know the religion or weight of the jokester and, unless he prayed or looked like me, I might well feel uncomfortable. Best to be so secure that jokes can be just jokes and not some conspiracy to oppress. I have noticed that WASPS rarely object to WASP jokes. Good for them. If men do not bring law suits against women for telling anti-men jokes, I say good for us. It shows that we are secure enough to recognize that our position in life is not determined by a clever turn of phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 04:15 AM

If 'tis funny then I will laugh. I won't worry about whether I should laugh or not. Blimey, some people squeeze all the fun and spontaneity out of life!

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 06:53 AM

Don't tell any jokes. Don't listen to any jokes. As a matter of fact, best that you just keep your head down and your mouth shut at all times. No matter what you say, there will always be at least one person who will be offended. I offer the following email I received just moments ago as an example.... with certain words blanked to protect the guilty....

Yesterday, I told you about the latest on the BLANK program and the rules regarding the advertising of having a BLANK certification. Unfortunately, the example I gave you on how to advertise one's certification (i.e. Ms. Smith) was inappropriate as there are currently two Ms. Smiths who have their BLANK designation including one Canadian (i.e. BLANK Smith from BLANK). I never intended to single out an individual in my example. I only used this surname as a female verson of the common "John Smith" example. It never even crossed my mind that there may be an actual Ms. Smith out there who would intrepret this from a different perspective.

BLANK is a BLANK, BLANK and BLANK member in good standing and I have already aplogized to BLANK for this unintended oversight. I would appreciate it if the BLANK membership would only view my example from yesterday as intended (i.e. describing a fictitious person). Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:51 AM

Imaginary offenses, taken by those with imaginary lives from immaginary hostility on the part of imaginary enemies, is really a silly control mechanism, wouldn't you agree???


A

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:09 PM

Hi Guest, I don't want to pick a fight, but don't really understand. I don't see a direct line between the workplace and net forums, which you seem to imply--I more or less have to deal with the atmosphere at work but can come and go here, if something offends me here I can speak out--no-one is my boss, and if I'm bored or disgusted I can leave it. On the other hand, e-conversation lends itself to giving unintended offense. Why pick on jokes? Seems rather odd, since I encounter as much ugliness in plainspeak as in jokes, more, really. (I almost only tell 'group' jokes in the presence of members of that group, and usually have better ones about a group I'm filed in.) It all depends. I think these sorts of rules are maybe a well-intended substitute for something much better--learning how to communicate and relate to people nicely. It's too complicated for any set of rules, but in some situations, workplaces maybe, rules are the best we can do. Voluntary discussion forums seem to me a good place to try to do better than that, even if there's a price, which there probably has to be.

As for sex, smut, I personally don't mind it, except that it's usually predictable and boring, never any original observations, people don't really talk about sex--just a sub-language of cartoony, second-hand abstractions. Sure, it tends to define women in a grotesque caricature of their gender, sexuality, and identity, and I'd like to learn to understand more about these things, since I don't have the authority to make it either A. go away, or B. more genuinely interesting and funny. (I think it also makes men seem like cartoons, but then it's more a defensive lampoon, maybe, than offensive.) It's not enough for me when people say, for example, this or that sexual stuff "objectifies" women--seems more animal than object, really. More cartoony than either. It's hard, but helps to get one's objections right.

Again, I don't think rules are very helpful to open discussions. Making good points to people willing to listen, or who can be influenced by your p.o.v. is probably better. And there are plenty of other things that can be quite offensive, besides the obvious ones phd's are currently writing rules about. I can think of some that bother me, totally offend me, but there's no general recognition of any need for sensitivity about, most people don't get it. How do you counteract something offensive , without appointing yourself arbiter or invoking some authority? I don't know, but that'd be good to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: MMario
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:40 PM

Ebbie - no , not really a bad day - just a trigger point -

over the years I have worked in several situations where women are the majority of the work force. In all cases the men were constantly reminded not to use terms which could be considered sexual harrasement, or offensive to women - yet the women were free to male-bash to their heart's content - and many of them use "men" as a pejorative, without censor.

Likewise - from this experience and having grown up with five sisters, I know that women will discuss things publicly in a detail and depth I have never heard in a male locker room, let alone from a male in public. but it's still the men who have the reputation of being sexist. (okay - I will admit it, in general we are. I would just like it admitted that there does exist a double standard.)

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 01:01 PM

Rules about these kind of things are like running around with a shit shovel behind a cat in the living room, clearing things up, but maybe a bit late. If you apply the basic principle of taking regard for other people's feelings, and treating them with respect, you don't need the rules.

Unfortunately there are some people who don't apply that basic principle, either because they are thoughtless and engrossed in themselves, or because they are engaged in some kind of power game which entails intentionally needling some people, and manipulating others into going along with this. They need house training.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 01:15 PM

"Gor-blime-chase-me-aunt-fanny-up-a-gumtree!" As so succinctly stated by George Cyril Wellbeloved. Do we have something better to spend our discretionary time on than all manner of offences in the world? How about making a joke thread? or a means of hallucinogenic escape thread? Or how to grow potatoes? Or the best way to discipline pets when they transgress? I mean, I'm as concerned about serious issues as the next one, but this catter-chatter about what offends whom and where, appropriate and inappropriate....great parlor discussions, but, ....hey that's just MY OPINION.

HC

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: hesperis
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 01:52 PM

MMario, you've been hanging out in the wrong locker rooms. *g*

I heard quite a few things while playing on a boys basketball team. (They thought I was asleep on the way home, I was only very close to asleep.) The fact that I'm NOW worse than they were, is merely that I learned it from them, then went a little further. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 02:22 PM

We've had threads on most of those things, HippieChick. Possibly not on growing potatoes. No doubt we'll get round to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 02:35 PM

:) I know McGrath. I have been speaking in my hyperbolic fashion.....I'm tickled with Gust KT who appreciates my signoff. I have the Folk joke discussion on a thread. Makes me laugh every time I read it. Now that I'm on a good computer (WYSIWYG's) it is fun posting here.

HC

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 07:18 PM

somehow this song started running thru my head ..hasn't almost everyone heard it?

"If all them young ladies were ****" etc..and the last verse goes:

"If all them young ladies were singing this song,
It'd be 3 times as dirty and ten times as long"

women, bless 'em, can be just as ribald, coarse and naughty as men....IF THEY CHOOSE!.. I do NOT judge the person by gender, just the circumstances in which I meet/hear them. If anyone sings a bawdy song or tells an off-color joke in the wrong place and at the wrong time, I condemn it...and sad to say, that gets into some mighty gray areas...

WHY must we make it a man vs. woman thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 04:32 AM

By and large I don't think people here have been making this "a man vs. woman thing".

Subject: RE: BS: Just Kidding?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 10:35 AM

The one about the Japanese man who wrote that he was Japanese on a job application form, and was told We say "Asian American". He said "Sorry, I didn't mean to offend myself."