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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 14 - 09:59 AM "f that is true what is the relevance here apart from having a go at Killen?" Louis Killen claimed to have put it together as a song Stop trying to cause an unnecessary argument on something thet has been posted Jim Carroll "Ewan MacColl certainly wrote it but only in snatches for different radio shows. I saw Louis Killen many years ago and he claimed to have put it together as a song. He even laughed about Ewan being asked to sing it and not being able to." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: The Sandman Date: 20 Jan 14 - 09:52 AM I was said to learn the late Louis Killen was one of the Ewan knockers who claimed MacColl didn't write some of his best songs, but stole them from elsewhere -" if that is true what is the relevance here apart from having a go at Killen? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 14 - 07:34 AM "Jim, you'll enjoy his assertion that MacColl took the tune from an older Irish song, "The Shores of Erin" It actually appeared under that title in a learned work on Sea lore, 'Folklore and the Sea' by Professor Horace Beck, as being typical of the songs sung by Kerry fishermen. I don't mind that sort of thing too much - there's genuine ignorance and there's sheer vindictiveness and dishonesty. "Auchterarder" I think this arose from record notes written by Ken Goldstein for some of Ewan' early records on Riverside. I have no idea whether this was a mistake on Ken's part or Ewan wishing to create a Scots persona for himself, which is possible, but would have been a little foolish as he was already well established as a playwright coming from Salford. I was once amused by Ewan's discomfort when I had a meal in their home once and his mother Betsy loudly declared to me across the table "we christened him Jimmy, you know" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: MGM·Lion Date: 20 Jan 14 - 07:04 AM Also repeats the canard that Ewan claimed to have been born in Auchterarder. Nowhere, in his autobiography Journeyman or anywhere else, did he make such a claim ~~ if he had, why would he have sung all his English songs, inc Shoals, in his native light Lancashire accent? He always named Salford as his birthplace. It was his mother Betsy who came from Auchterarder. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Ruth Archer Date: 20 Jan 14 - 06:30 AM Shoals of Herring in The Guardian yesterday, and in the new Coen brothers' film: Inside Llewyn Davis has its pleasures and its flaws, as did the folk movement Jim, you'll enjoy his assertion that MacColl took the tune from an older Irish song, "The Shores of Erin". :) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 14 - 06:00 AM Interesting to re-visit this subject MacColl wrote it as a whole song for 'Singing the Fishing' - it was broken up for the programme. He based the lyrics directly on actuality recorded from mainly Sam Larner - the recordings are in The Charles Parker Archive in Birmingham and in the Ewan MacColl Archive at Ruskin college - lines like "stormy seas and the living gales" came directly from Sam. He adapted the tune from the the version of the ballad "Famous Flower of Serving Men' 'Sweet William' included in Gavin Greig's 'Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads' which Ewan recorded on a Folkways album. Peggy said he adapted the same tune for several of his songs, including 'Freeborn Man'. I was said to learn the late Louis Killen was one of the Ewan knockers who claimed MacColl didn't write some of his best songs, but stole them from elsewhere - alongside the pratt writing in Musical Traditions who claimed MacColl stole 'Herring' from Sam Larner and claimed it as his own. The song has been recovered several times from source singers since it was composed, but invariably in fragmented and distorted versions Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Guest Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:54 AM Thanks for the above link. Wonderful song. Wonderful singer. And I liked the photos that had been posted on the link |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Georgiansilver Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:55 PM I am surprised no-one has put this link up on this thread! Shoals of Herring.. Ewan McColl! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jack Campin Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:13 PM Thread on the tune mayomick was talking about here: The Dying Rebel which says the tune for it was "Waly, Waly". Which is a bit like "Dirty Old Town", and does predate the 20th century, but it's not the same tune. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: mayomick Date: 19 Jan 14 - 03:18 PM My family had the Clancy Brothers LP with the Shoals of Herring in the sixties. We all used to love the song and were convinced that it was called The Shores Of Erin , for ages even though the title was clearly written on the LP sleeve Alex. I once heard an Irish republican pipe band playing a tune that I took to be Dirty Old Town in Dublin's O'Connell St, which I thought was a bit odd at the time . It was in fact the tune to a rebel song about O'Connell St "the night was young and the battle over , the moon shone down O'Connell St." I assume that MacColl must have somehow taken the Dirty Old Town tune from that song , but the air itself is probably older than the twentieth century ; somebody who knew as many tunes as McColl did could have just composed the song from the music in his own head with a little variation. I've sometimes thought that The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face was influenced by Blackwaterside . |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jack Campin Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:58 PM I have that pipe tune book - the Cabar Feidh Collection, no date I can see but no earlier than the 1980s. They call it "Sgaoth Sgadan". I think they're havering. Maybe somebody translated "Shoals of Herring" into Gaelic? I wonder how many other tunes by Communists got into the British Army repertoire? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Alex Binnie Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:32 PM Just to throw a herring among the pigeons (!!) can I suggest the McColl heard the tune first from Scots Gaelic speakers? I have spotted it in a book of pipe tunes, where it is described as a popular Gaelic song " An Sgada Sgathan". Nothing wrong in using existing tunes, Burns did it all the time! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:45 AM "....blue plaque." Wonderful news wonder if they'll put one on Walter Pardon's, or Harry Cox's. In Sam's time Winterton had a reputation of being somewhat parochial. We were told on a number of occasions that if a lad from another village came courting a local girl, the men would picket both roads to keep him out. Another story was of the fisherman who had just finished washing his boat down on the beach when a butterfly landed on it. The man was so furious at "having all his hard work spoiled that he chased it over four fields before he squashed it flat". Sam's local, the Fishermans Return, was the venue of a weekly singaround. The landlord bought one of the first 'wirelesses' and, on being asked by a local what it was, he explained "that's a gadget for bringing the news and the latest music from London". The old man leaned across the counter, hooked the "gadget" off the shelf onto the floor, where it smashed into 100 pieces - it was never replaced. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Barnacle (at work) Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:50 AM The Tide and Tide Museum in Great Yarmouth does use "Singing the Fishing" and is a brilliant place to go, based in an old curing shed. I have been lots of times, but recently took my 9 year old German grandson, who thought it was wonderful, too - especially the smell. The restaurant is delighful as well with kippers that, in the words of aforesaid grandson "taste better than smoked salmon". Incidentally Sam Larner's house, in the next but one village to me, has just been graced with a blue plaque. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: The Sandman Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:08 AM no you didnt, just remarking how i feel about it |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:56 AM "But with any song the singer should feel free to sing which verses he prefers " Sorry Cap'n - did I suggest otherwise? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: The Sandman Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:55 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peA18SO9afU&list=UU-GtPNIEDLICv5yKnirJAPg&feature=plcp |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: The Sandman Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:54 AM while we are on the subject of listening this song was taken from listening to a fisherman talking about his life, and from listening to a lt of macColls songs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peA18SO9afU&list=UU-GtPNIEDLICv5yKnirJAPg&feature=plcp |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: The Sandman Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:50 AM GOODpoints jIM, But with any song the singer should feel free to sing which verses he prefers |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:17 AM A point about MacColl's song-making, especially some of the Radio Ballad ones. He regularly took actuality recorded from people like Sam Larner and used it directly - "living gales" and "silver darlings" came from Sam, 'Just a Note' was inspired by Sligo man Jack Hamilton, and much of 'Shellback' was taken from recordings of Ben Bright. 'Tenant Farmer' was made after a New Years party at Sandiford after talking to a border farmer who had been evicted from his land for not being able to pay the rent increases. These, in my opinion, were some of his most durable and 'authentic' songs and why, as Susanne said, Sam Larner claimed "I known that song all my life". Travellers we have met have made similar claims of 'Freeborn Man'. Ewan was regularly accused of 'stealing' songs from the tradition and claiming them as his own, though I am not aware of one song this has been claimed of that has been found prior to the date his having written it. A mark of his ability to listen to what people said - and how they said it, as far as I'm concerned. Jim Caroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 08 Dec 11 - 02:39 AM "Yarmouth was full of Scots fish-gutters." Quite so Jim. My mother-in-law's grandfather lived in Gorleston and she said she remembers the place was full of Scottish girls. Likewise the link below suggests that perhaps over half the fishing fleet setting out from these ports originated in Scotland. So the place was presumably teeming with Scottish men at times too. It wouldn't be unusual for an Englishman to pick up a word often used by Scots especially when the said word isn't in itself even alien to England. "The catches during this period were prodigious. This was the time when it was said it was possible to walk from one side of Great Yarmouth harbour to the other, across the boats. By the end of this period Great Yarmouth had a fleet of over one thousand boats, three quarters of which made the autumnal trip from Scotland. Lowestoft had a massive fleet of over seven hundred and fifty boats, with over half coming from Scotland" http://www.gorlestonhistory.org.uk/fishing/fishing.php |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Dec 11 - 03:00 PM As Allan said, Yarmouth was full of Scots fish-gutters. Also, Sam Larner, on whom much of the 'Shoals' text was based, regularly put into Scots ports while on a trip. He described taking part in a singing competition in Peterhead on one of these trips There was much to-ing and fro-ing between the eastern ports; Sam's nephew's wife Ella was nicknamed 'Sunderland' because that was her home place, having moved down from there as a fish-gutter - "bonny" is a word still commonly used in her part of the world. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: The Sandman Date: 07 Dec 11 - 02:48 PM I always leave out the first and last verse, i agree with the comments about east anglians using or not using bonny |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 07 Dec 11 - 10:20 AM "I don't believe that somebody from Yarmouth would use the word "Bonny". But wasn't Yarmouth annually teeming with Scots fishing girls at that time? Surely the local fisherfolk would pick up on words from the Scots and vice-versa? Bonny is not exactly an unknown word in England though I know it is used more in the north of England. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Growlin' Graham Carter Date: 06 Dec 11 - 10:59 AM I studied this song recently after somebody suggested that it might be suitable for me to perform. In the end I went for authenticity and transcribed the lyric directly from a verson of Ewan singing it live. I don't believe that somebody from Yarmouth would use the word "Bonny". It's a wonderful song and I'm glad I learned it.....it will be a life long companion now. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Compton Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:34 PM Abby, it was almost EVERY verse!! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: John Routledge Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:27 PM As a song to be sung direct to an audience the "Radio" version minus the first and last verses seems more satisfactory to me. After all the audience is not listening to the radio :0) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Abby Sale Date: 18 Aug 04 - 12:41 PM As I recall, in the Radio Ballad, the first and last verses are separate from the rest (and the last verse is rarely if ever, sung by MacColl.) One is sung by Lloyd & the other by MacColl but they are significantly different in key, tune & scansion from the rest of the song...They are a set but styled very differently by the two men. That would account for two key changes right there. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Compton Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:44 PM John, see how many key changes he makes!! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: John Routledge Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:23 PM Bob is performing at The Grove, Leeds, UK on 3rd Sept. I will ask him to sing it :0) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim McLean Date: 14 Aug 04 - 05:05 AM Alex Campbell used to say you could tell which key Bob was singing in by the colour of his neck! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Compton Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:14 PM I used to sing this after hearing Bob Davenport sung it.(when both Bob and I were much younger!!..people used to say it was strange that I was varying key between each verse...than I heard a record with Bob that I got it off...and damn me, he sang it in all sorts of keys as well!! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Anne Croucher Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:13 PM A lugger with an engine is still a sailing vessel with a lugs'l - you know what I ment. I still think fishing lugger makes more sense. Singing 'sailing lugger' is like saying 'car with wheels'. I did hear that a month after Singing the Fishing was on the radio someone bought several rounds of porter in order to collect a really good song from some Irish chaps, only to find that he had been given 'shoals of herring' transmogrified into 'shores of Erin' for his trouble. Anne |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Tam Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:49 PM Peggy at the hairdressers? There's a picture! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:14 PM There are naysayers who state that MacColl's "Shoals of Herring" spread so rapidly that it metamorphosed into "Shores of Erin;" to the point that some insist that their grandparents sang it (several singers websites). There is an old song, "The Green Shores of Erin," by C. H. Duval, but the tune is different. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:04 PM A few years ago Peggy Seeger told me that once when she was the hairdressers the young woman attending to her was humming a tune. Recognising it, Peggy asked her, 'What's the name of that tune?'. She answered 'It's an old Irish song called 'The Shores of Erin'. Call it what you like it remains one of the best folk revival songs ever written. Burl. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Abby Sale Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:52 AM Just to add a bit of trivia to this mythic song - MacColl not only studied Larner's speech (and his life history) in search of accuracy...he also did so with the rest of the song. He pinned a huge map of the North Sea on his bedroom wall. As he wrote, he would run into the bedroom and consult the map. This ensured for him the place names and possible routes for the trips. Much of the progress of the song's subject is taken directly from Larner's life. That "Shores of Erin" reference is slightly off. It was possibly a single incident, not that the song was generally or even widely known by that. It seems to spring from a comment, apparently by MacColl and both Palmer (Oxford Book of Sea Songs) and "freeborn man" LP, note it's been collected in Ireland as "The Shores of Erin." I've never seen any corrorboration of that until just now reading Dave Bryant's comment above. But I'd still really like to see a certain reference and text. Maybe it's just the whistle tune mentioned by curmudgeon. Last, I believe this to be a great example of a true "folk song." Or "Neo-folk song." That is, one that is recent, transmitted in part electronically and of known authorship but... Passes in the community of folksingers oraly and rapidly and "processes" as it goes. It was recorded early on (and in significantly differing versions) by the likes of Killen, Kelly, Makem, the Corries and even MacColl. (MacColl because he kept changing it and in the Radio show, he is not the sole singer of the song.) It even enters the literature as early as 1965 by no less than Palmer. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Steve Parkes Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:47 AM They'd probably like to, but can't afford the royalties. Can anyone find out? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:45 AM Great pity they don't use it at the fishing museum in Yarmouth and Peter bellamy's music. why are these places run by people who ...words don't fail me...butI've upset my quota of people for today. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Steve Parkes Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:44 AM Absolutely correct, Ian! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: IanC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:07 AM What's wrong with tautologies anyway? They're often used in East Anglian speech to strengthen the meaning of what's being said. In a song, they can also provide emphasis. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Greyeyes Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:56 AM Not convinced "sailing lugger" is necessarily a tautology. A lugger tied up at the dock for instance would be a lugger that wasn't sailing. So it could mean he was cabin boy on a vessel about to set sail. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Steve Parkes Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:13 AM But you could have a lugger with an auxilliary engine, Anne; maybe he meant one that didn't, but was entirely wind-powered? And Barrie: yes we did! I don't think I've ever heard anyone else sing that last verse, but it's time we started. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Anne Croucher Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:59 PM I sing 'fishing lugger'in the second verse - you can have a lugger that is not a fishing boat but you can't have a lugger than is not a sailing vessel - a lugs'l is a four cornered sail set fore and aft bent onto a yard slung off centre. The term 'sailing lugger' is a tautology. Anne |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:32 PM Like Steve Parkes, I saw the BBC tv documentary 'Shoals of Herring' in the mid1970s. In fact, I believe we watched it together. It was produced by McColl's pal Philip Donellan who died in Ireland a couple of years ago. After his death the national Film Theatre ran a season of his work, so they might have 'Shoals of Herring'. There was, indeed, a new closing to the song written for that film, which I believe was: With our nets and gear we're faring, To reap a harvest that we do not sow, But if we don't seed There will come our hour of need, When we shall find no more the shoals of herring. |
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Subject: RE: shoals of herring From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha Date: 13 Dec 02 - 01:48 PM I remember Sarah Miles whilst filming in Ireland, describing the song in glowing terms,this was the Liam Clancy version she had been hearing and the beautiful slow lead in verse and the finish of the song in the same manner,her words, "had her spellbound". Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: shoals of herring From: greg stephens Date: 13 Dec 02 - 08:38 AM Henry V indeed, from the "Once more unto the breach dear friends once more" speech. It's amazingly difficult to use the English language without quoting from Shakesepeare or the King James(Authorised) Bible, whether consciously or unconsciously. In a recent TV show they ran down the top 100 best-selling singles since the charts began. I remember noticing that top ten final songs contained lyrics from both those sources. |
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Subject: RE: shoals of herring From: GUEST,Adolfo Date: 13 Dec 02 - 07:24 AM Greetings. There's a vhs version of the song included in the BBC 'Bringing it all back home' documentary about Irish music influence on the USA. There it's the Clancy Brothers singing. By the way, one of the brothers mentions the fact that the line 'wide and wasteful ocean' was taken from Shakespeare's Henry V. |
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Subject: RE: shoals of herring From: Steve Parkes Date: 13 Dec 02 - 03:10 AM I've absolutely no idea, Tom, sorry. You could try the Beeb direct, I supopose. Steve |
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Subject: RE: shoals of herring From: curmudgeon Date: 12 Dec 02 - 12:50 PM Steve - Do you know if the tv version is available? I would really like to have a look and a listen -- Tom |
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