Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ossonflags
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:41 AM

I have heard you sing that a time or twenty axeman!!!!!!!!

Karen,please add Mick and Mary McGarry to your membership list.

KEEP MUSIC LIVE.........!!!!!!

See you Tuesday (although not a lot of time to practise)

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:11 AM

I was just an ordinary Englishman, until I got me uniform and hat...!

Karen, please add Peter Dean to the list. Thankyou. Looking forward to the event.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:32 AM

Please add Nick & Christine Scaife to the membership list, all being well we will be through on Tuesday

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:09 AM

You can put my name on the list.

Doug C

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,KJ
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 07:35 PM

If we post a list of those coming on Tuesday,then I can get 'em in the 'membership' book & print cards to be collected on arrival. Might cut down on some of the admin. After all we're there to attempt to play music.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM

Hi Oakleaf & fellow Sloopers(?) I shall be with you in spirit on Tuesday but unfortunately I can't be there in person due to work commitments

Gerry

P.S Oakleaf can I have my keys back as I can't get in (but you can keep the fun fur jacket)

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:32 AM

New Labour=New Load of Shit.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Oaklet
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM

Anyway, I have just spoken to Jill (landlady of the Sloop) who asked me to remind all those planning to attend the mass-action on Tuesday that they will have to backdate their membership by 48 hours to gain entry to the private room set aside for the "Mother of all Sessions" on Tuesday. If the Assistant Licensing Officer is there (Jill will know) then this will not be possible. Prepare for a bit of an administrative drag on Tuesday, but it could be a bit of a landmark evening. Jill is ringing the ALO tomorrow to discuss the acceptability of the frosted glass in the new door that has been added to the room. It is important that the public cannot see the musicians. Having seen Bloke-in-the Corner, I understand why.

To anyone who has encountered a licensee who doesn't give a flying f*uck about music sessions, I think that Jill should be praised for entering into the spirit if the thing. I was quite moved when she explained that she was angered to tears by last week's visit, and it must have been very tempting to say b*ollocks to it and expel the aerophonists, bangers, twangers, blowers, scrapers and dirge-traffickers in favour of a quiet life.

Anyone travelling from afar can stay at Bloke-in-the-Corner's house for as long as they want. Or Banjo-Flower's house come to that, as I have his keys.

9

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 07:43 AM

ET, I'd decided I didn't like New Labour before the last election. It came up at the time I was moving to North Norfolk from Wales. I voted Plaid Cymru. Round here, it is very Conservative and Lib Dem (currently in power) form the only serious opposition. I've got way off topic here... but I wish John Smith was still alive.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:18 AM

The colourful comments about New Labour are interesting. Would musician have voted for them if it had been known they would hve so threatened our cultural rights and innocent interests? I wonder if any of the cannon fodder MPs realise what this bill will do to country pubs, to traditional music etc. If they did they might be concerned. Essential they all get to know!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Ian Darby
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 11:13 PM

The local coppers are probably going up the wall.

They must have better things to do than persecute beer drinking herberts for playing a few tunes.

Regarding weapons of mass distraction, may I recommend bhodrans & banjos in the front line, and when the 'Folk Police' make their entrance you should all start humming 'Keep The Home Fires Burning, White Cliffs of Dover, etc,' to a solitary harmonica accompaniment

(They can't do you for humming.)

Failing this, anything else by Vera Lynn would do.

Has the world gone completely mad?

The very best of luck to you....

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 08:14 PM

I thgibk you are exactly right Guest, i voted for this goverment, because i thought they would be good, and i thouhht they would be better than the conservative people, but now i think they are shit, folk music is my main hobby and they are tryting to ban it and give too many rules etc, if a few people go to pub and sing and play music, then so what, that is not dangerous! and they like to make war and kill people, already about more than a dozen english men got killed in this iraq war, this goverment is fucking stupid and really piss me off.ps i wonmt vot for them againd.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:15 PM

John, you shouldn't. The most sensible system with regards to pubs IMO would be closer to the old one but without the need for a PEL at all. The landlord could/should convince magistrates that (s)he is responsable enough to run a licenced premisis. If (she) is responsable enough, it shoul be up to them to decide what is suitable for their premisis.

It is quite reasonable to back these requirements up with reasonable (and I believe to the most extent existing) laws, perhaps limiting the level of noise on a premisis, setting a maximum safe number of people of the premisis, expecting the licensee should ensure reasonable behaviour within and maybe outside his premisis, etc. Such measures should be applied equally and live entertainment should not be singled out especially when there are examples such as loud jukeboxes and wide screen tv far more likely to cause problems bt are exempt.

I believe this law, amongst other things demonstrates a clear case of favouritism towards the activities that put money into the pockets of those who already have money and am quite sick that a Labour government should have dreamed them up.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:36 PM

anyway, this new law is a big load of shit, why should youu haf to give youre name and a dress if you like to sing a flok song or polay intrunment, and sign things, big load of shit.goverment etc shouls do good things like help people etc, like build hospitalks and help old people, and give more money to scools and things like that. and not make trouble, ban music and making war etc, they are a big load of shit,.thisd is my ipimion.john

john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:29 PM

heloo, woh is colin tomson, oaklet-find out wgho he is, and thow some thing at him, like tomatoes or ornges or hamster shit etc, and serves him right.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:34 PM

Ver good Dave.anyway, it looks like won't be allowed in as he doesn't play a small instrument!!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

Looking for people to blame and name-calling will not really help anyone much. As for the lady inquestion doing her job, it is a question of ensuring that she does it properly. It is her job to carry out the policy of her council - not to make it.

As has been pointed out, even the licensing law does not support the interpretation that the lady is using and it is also incompatible with the HRA.

The best approach is to contact (sensible) local councillors and inform them of the true legal position and to get them to change their policy and call the dogs off.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Oaklet
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:18 PM

It was Colin Thompson.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM

Can I just point out that it is slightly unfair to call the woman from the council a bitch. She did not make the law. Yes she may be a 'jobsworth' but if she doesn't do her job, she would probably be unemployed & there's not many of us would like to be that with expenses such as mortgages, rent, food, utility bills...all those little luxuries. What I would like to know is who complained/reported us to the council in the first place?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 02:40 PM

Grateful for all this. Could I point out that the "club room" is not very big. Bring instruments that don't take much space - whistles ok, but trombones out. Fiddles only if they don't jump about Mr O.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:53 AM

'Impromptu' is not the test

Like much else in the DCMS leaflets, their comment about the case law from 1899 is misleading. The law report in question (Brearley v Morley, 1899, 2 QB 121]makes it quite clear that the performances were not impromptu. They were planned, taking place 'on Saturdays, and sometimes on Fridays'. The initial prosecution was undertaken in the knowledge that the 'performers' were unpaid. The test at that time was not simply whether performers were paid; it was also whether the landlord 'provided' the entertainment. The reason the conviction was quashed on appeal was that the landlord was found NOT to have provided the entertainment. He merely allowed customers to use a piano in a bar for their own amusement.

It is also worth pointing out that the Government's Licensing Bill for the first time makes the provision of a piano for public use a criminal offence, unless licensed.

Hamish Birchall
Musicians' Union adviser - PEL reform

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Oaklet
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM

John Bennet. Hello. Why don't we just heavily disguise the thing so that it appears NOT to be entertaining to members of the public. I am prepared to bring my violin if you think that this approach might work. Get Daithi to bring one of his beautiful accomplices to stretch the truth just a little bit and scream over and over again that it sounds really, really bad and must stop. Then the buggers would be on the ropes.

And don't call my aunty Peg from North Lincs Trading Standards Council a bitch or I'll do a satirical mime about you, you varmint.

I'd forgotten what a simple please typing this rubbish can be. Marvelous9.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:19 AM

It is important to note that the word 'impromptu' does not appear in the case law in question. The event was a regular one and the crucial factor which decided the event was not public entertainment was that the customers making music were not paid.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:15 AM

She may well be a bitch but you will succeed in upsetting her far in the long term more by remaining cool, calm and collected and above all reasobable. If you loose your rag she will feel "justified" in her actions.
Reminds me of a Jeremy Taylor song............Jobsworth, jobsworth it's more than me jobs worth .................I might just resurrect that in her honour in time for Tuesday

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From:
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM

Tony, for the licencee, Jill,has promised to attach a door tomorrow to seal us in. Those of us who are already members are ok to turn up. Those who are new have to sign in 48hrs before. Except that any muso who knows any member can sign in as a visitor the first night to stay and play. The bitch from the music police seemed not to be worried about a quid entrance(that would be raffled ), but she was anxious that no unknown member of the public should get in and even find it entertaining.
                                  JB

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: daithi
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 09:44 AM

Surely the isuue of Payment is crucial to whether the event is licensable or not? From the above postings it seems to me that this is the best defence - any way of getting chapter and verse on this ready for Tuesday?
Also the involvement of local(opposition ) councillors, is good too - but only if we convince them that we have a case.
the media might be sympathetic anyway...sounds like a good case to launch a campaign "SOS - Save Our Session".
Dáithí

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:21 AM

Thanks for the clarification Ian. Putting music as the critera makes a big difference!

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: IanC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:10 AM

There's a question of interpretation here. As far as the legal documents go, it is the music which appears to be being described as impromptu not the event. I know that some local councils interpret it to mean the latter (they use advertising to "prove" it's not) but, presumably, the vast majority who don't involve themselves in this fact-twiddling are interpreting it in the same way I am.

:-)

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:05 AM

ET, Im not sure how easy it is to claim that the same people meeting the same night in the same venue each week is impromptu. In this case, given the announcement here now (not to mention past mentions of the Sloop, e.g here), I think that position would be immpossible or at a minimum dangerous if anyone happened to get wind of Mudcat.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:49 AM

In an epistle from DCMS dated MArch 2003 they say "in 1899 the courts held that impromptu performances by customers were not licensable, but performances given by a customer or any musician "for a consideration" were licensable. The report of the Royal Commission on Licensing (England and Wales) 1929-1931 (para 249) confirmed this interpretation of the law. Working musicians were not therefore exempted as claimed. The 2 in a bar rle was introduced by the licensing act 1964. The new bill abolishes this but introduces new arrangements whereby any pub may obtain permission to stage live musical events at no extra cost when obtaining permission to sell alchohol.

Translated into English I think this means that performances that are impromptu, by the performers, for themselves and without payment or free beer are not caught by the PEL provisions. I have many copies of this 6 page document issued by DCMS and will hand them out.

I think the point about telling councillors is a good one. I was at a meeting of another bigger council last night and their licensing and safety officers described the new bill as a "real dogs breakfast" as originally ste up but now a regurgitated mess!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:40 AM

the Wombat & I had intended coming over on Tuesday, subject to her dental appointments ............will there be room ?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:45 AM

Go on then, Rog.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:41 AM

If the landlord did wish to continue without the pretence of the session being a private club, the fine would only be payable if they lost. Most licencees stop, obtain the PEL or plead guilty.

There is more than a possibilty, that this licensee could win, if they maintain that it is not licensable public entertainment and the participants are not 'performers'.

There is more than a chance that the authority would back off, if they were faced with proving the event was licensable, especially with good local support and media coverage.

Have the local councillors been approached?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:46 AM

Doesn't sound as though your session is much different from the one in the Cricketers at Greenwich, which was closed down by the Music Police until they got a PEL which cost them about £350. That only covers the pub for two sessions a week though - it would cost them something like £1,400 to have one for music every night.

Strange isn't it, the PEL is supposed to be to ensure that the premises are safe for entertainment and that it doesn't cause a nuisance - yet by paying more money the pub suddenly becomes "safe" for more evenings a week.

I wish you luck, but if your local council are like Greenwich and see PELs as a sort of entertainment tax way of making extra money, they'll threaten the landlord with legal action which he can't afford.

Incidently, I think you'll find that most "Music Police" are paid on a commission basis in the same way as the PRS snoopers were.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:43 AM

The landlord Tony, is adding a door to the small room to the left this weekend. All local folkies commanded to attend Next Tuesday. Sloop is in Barton on Humber - down the hill to town, turn left, round to the right, down to the junction and then left. River on right hand side, Sloop on left down road.

If enforcement police from Council turns up should be good with 25 musicians jammed in a room designed for 10.....all signed in and pretending to be a club.....listening to why she has taken it into her head to defy Home Office Guidance and enforce this nonesense, which is recognised as such by even Labour MPs who have signed EDM's etc

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ossonflags
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:14 AM

Wonderfull!!!!!!!!!!

Me and Mrs.Ossonflags will be there.

If anyone wants a lift from 'ull,there are five spare seats going in the Punchmobile.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Bassic
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM

This is Barton on Tigris we are talking about isnt it?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Bassic
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:10 PM

Sounds SCUD to me Smallpiper!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: smallpiper
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:44 PM

Barton! Me an Nik Nak will be there I might even bring me war pipes!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Bloke in the corner
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:47 PM

Very pleased to be able to report that I have talked to the landlord at the Sloop. He will be delighted to welcome all folkies next Tuesday, starting arond 8.30, I've no doubt the usual pizza/sausage/chips or whatever will be offered, no doubt also the music police will be there, so we will have our own (nicely bare for the acoustics) room. Tony is of course on our side, the landlady was visibly upset when this nastiness happened on Tuesday, just imagine what would happen just about anywhere else in the world if musicians playing acoustic music were threatened! Imagine if it were Galway or Connemara! They WOULD chuck the buggers in the nearest large body of water!
But let's not be vindictive, our love of the oral music tradition is what matters, all the regulars would be delighted to have a packed session next Tuesday, and thank all visitors in advance for their support. This week Barton, next week....?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM

well said bloke in the corner. Thats your authority - you have the corner seat and as you say thats as far as it is controlled.   Went to a meeting tonight at Hull City Council Licensing and health and safety man there. Both described the new act as a dogs breakfast - and there are the ones supposedly enforcing the thing.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Bloke in the corner
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM

Well, what a hornet's nest we stirred up! And how shameful it is that these people feel they have the right to jeopardise a tradition stretching back centuries, if not millennia. They simply don't have the moral right to stop unpaid accoustic instrumentalists from playing in a pub where they have permission and full support of the landlord. Sod them, they MUSTN'T win!
Pid Piper, we have had a SESSION at the Sloop for over five years, every Tuesday. It's NOT a folk club, no stars, no cliques and no-one hogging the limelight, just a group of friends and welcome visitors doing just about the only thing that separates us from the other animals - making music for pleasure! All are welcome, be part of a happy and peaceful (and in some cases talented) group. The business about the folk club is that we may HAVE to call ourselves a folk club, maybe even sign in etc. But we will NOT be spending valuable drinking & playing time talking about rules etc. Perhaps slagging off the music police, even giving interviews to the press.
And Eric, I'm NOT the organiser. There isn't one. The essence of the club is that it is an anarchic gathering without bosses or anyone telling you what to do. Just play bloody folk music!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: KJ
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:35 PM

Hey up folks, before we all go rushing in, we ought to have a word with the landlord/landlady & get their permission. It will be on their heads that the mightily unfair arm of the law will come crashing down. Colin & I can have a saunter down tonight & talk to them if no-one has already done it.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Banjoman
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM

Nil DESPERANDUM Carborundum etc - don't let the Bastards drive you down. I wish I was near enough to be there as I love a good fight against silly laws and the even stupider people who try to enforce them. Reminds me of an incident a few years ago when our local council made a substantial grant to help in running a local Folk FestivAl. On the first evening, the same councils environmental health officer arrived and promptly ordered the closure of most of the venues. We ignored her and enjoyed the inter departmental fight which ensued.
It would be great if everyone attending was arrested and subsequently appeared in court en masse - the press would have a field day.

Best of luck - keep us informed of any developments

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM

Hamish Birchall
Case law, which forms part of Robin Allen's opinion, determines that between 1899 and 1961 two musicians (or possibly more) could regularly play a pub piano and sing for their own amusement, unpaid, and this was not regarded as a licensable public entertainment (Brearley v Morley, 1899). The Licensing Bill would, of course, render both the activity and the piano a criminal offence unless licensed.

The DCMS
This point is disingenuous. In 1899, the courts held that impromptu performances by customers were not licensable, but performances given by a customer or any musician "for a consideration" were licensable. The Report of the Royal Commission on Licensing (England and Wales) 1929 – 1931 (paragraph 249) confirmed this interpretation of the law. Working musicians were therefore not exempted as claimed. The "two in a bar rule" was introduced by the Licensing Act 1964.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:05 PM

Sir Roger that would be his hologram who was present when his ashed were finally disposed of on Saturday, he expressed his gratitude at the most moving ceremony. I also have photos of the hologram at the ceremony, but as I said earlier my computer is steam driven and I cannot email piccys to the web

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:05 PM

And who's bringing the hamster shit?

BJ

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:41 AM

I'm confused. Is there going to be a session at the Sloop this Tuesday that I can attend to show solidarity, or is it a Folk club?
PP

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:06 AM

Thanks for all these responses. Have told Laurie Collingwood who organises this session that supporters will turn up. John Bennet, professional busker with walking stick, has been in touch with the local paper. Will talk to him tonight to see if the landlord has hung a door on the room to the left as you go in. Its a bit small but ok. When you want a drink you will have to open the door and rush to the bar in case the one local is upset by the music coming out!

There will be a formal club I think, with minutes, an agenda, points of order so there may not be much time for playing!!!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:42 AM

i still cant do that slanted writing, but ETV said
"What happens when music police turn up?"
We tie them up, and threw things at them, then chuck them in the river, so make sure you bring some string with you.john