writing words to established tunes

Subject: writing words to established tunes
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:38 PM

For several years I have been writing lyrics to established tunes...so I could sing them...and everything...but now that I am finally learning to play an instrument (lap dulcimer), I have been looking for the notes and all of some of these tunes...and have been finding in some cases it doesnt appear to scan so well....well at least not perfectly with a syllable for each note...Is this a problem? It bugs me a little in an OCD sort of way....but musically is it an issue? f so...how do you get around it?

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:45 PM

And is it legal? That is, since I can't write tunes but I *can * write lyrics (way to go Amergin! I haven't learned an instrument yet but it IS my NYResolution) to tunes I know... but I don't sing those to anybody but myself, really, though I've posted some here...

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:47 PM

Many songs have different numbers of syllables in different verses.
Splitting a 1/4 note into two eighths, or combining two eighths into a quarter is a common way of making words fit. So instead of a G followed by a B you could use a GA pair of 1/8ths up to the B

You can even use triplets sometimes

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:04 PM

Recycling a tune is an age old tradition. We have written lyrics to existing tunes as well. We also do some songs that have the same tune; that is, we do more than one set of lyrics to the same tune. At the moment we are working on Michael Blann's Drinking Song which is to the tune of Yankee Doodle. We also do a version of Wraggle Taggle Gypsies which is also to the tune of Yankee Doodle.

It is also very common for lyrics to not scan the same in each verse. We've written some of those, too. Sometimes you will see notes in parantheses in musical scores which indicate that you use the note if you need to or skip it if that works better.

As far as we know, you're not in violation of any law! If someone wants to learn your song and they have trouble making it scan they will simply change the lyrics slightly (or the tune) to make them fit together. We do it all the time. It's called the folk process.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:11 PM

Tunes aren't fixed, they adjust themselves to match the words used with them, and the same happens the other way round

English verse doesn't operate on the number of syllables in a line, but rather on the stresses in the lines. Lines with very different numbers of syllables can go with the same tune. It happens in the different verses of songs all the time.

If the tune sounds right when you sing the song, it is right. Of course it might not be exactly the same tune as in the song you took it from, or in the tune as it is written down in musical notation in a book, but so what? You learn to play what goes with what you sing.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM

I love gospel songs and have no problem with that but - There's an old Reno and Smiley song that I like to pick- and would like to sing, but the tune is just W A Y too perky and happy. It's called 'The Lord's Last Supper' and unless you know the song, you'd never guess the subject.

For instance, the chorus goes:

He knew the time had come to die to free the world
The world he loved, so lost in sin
The precious promise that he left for you and me
I go but soon I'll come again.

One of these times I'm going to write a different song for it, I swear.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: The Dane
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:28 AM

Another way of recycling a traditional tune can be found in "The Kesh Jig" that has been turned into the song "You couldn't have come at a better time". This song does not follow the jig 100% but is build up around it - with a beautiful result, it might be added.

Jacob

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:55 AM

If it was good enough for Woody Guthrie ...

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: GUEST,Mr Red (been there done that, got the brickb
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:06 AM

amergin
Just claim the folk process. If you have new words you have a new song, maybe derivative but yours. If is was the original lyrics you might have a problem but with your words the tune is an adaptation. That's FOLK.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:15 AM

And if it is good enough for Woody, it is good enough for me. I only have "written" two tunes to my songs, one is VERY like Skibbereen, the other is VERRY familier, but I can't place it, nor can anyone I have sung it too... it is called folk music.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Sam L
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM

I started writing silly lyrics to various tunes, for kids, and a Mr. Gargoyle politely suggested I stick to traditional folk songs. Trying to take that suggestion, somewhat, it's more work, really. Many folksongs have muddled verses and off-center stuff clinging to them like cockleburs, I have to sort versions, pick and cut and paste, and hunt, eventually I give in and write a little something myself. I really can't sing verses of Die Gedanken Sind Frie that make it sound like a drinking song, or dainty additive verses to a powerful narrative lyric.

   But I get more lyric ideas, and more tune ideas, in the process. I'll stumble through finding chords to an a cappella tune, and wind up changing the tune, and then before I know it it's really a different tune. There are many degrees in the art of stealing.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:24 AM

Many years ago, when I was an active amateur magician, I was going to a magic club Christmas party, so I wrote for the occasion a song based on the idea and tune of Acres of Clams. The story line started out:

"I wanted to be a great wizard
With spirits that came at my call
With imps and with demons to serve me
I'd gaze in a great crystal ball."
Cho:
"I'd gaze in a great crystal baw-aw-all
I'd gaze in a great crystal ball
With imps and with demons to serve me
I'd gaze in a great crystal ball."

Seems my spells wouldn't work, no-one would teach me incantations, etc., so I tried sleight of hand. Failing there despite study and practice, I turned to illusions (the big equipment-type magic) at last.

But illusions, the song says, cost very big money; they made me a financial wreck. "And now I no longer feel funny with thumbtip and Svengali deck." This is magician in-group talk; you don't need to know.

This was one of if not THE most successful song, as song, I ever wrote. One problem: Only magicians would understand it, and it deals with some details that I as a magician would never want to hint to a lay audience, and references to great magicians' names you've probably never heard of. Therefore, I've only sung this song twice for an audience, both for magician's clubs, despite my pride in my handiwork. Durn!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Clean Supper
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 06:14 AM

The Rocky Road to Dublin is another good example. THe tune version and the songversion are noticeably different but still the same tune. I have also heard songs sung to Irish reels but slowed right down and filled with fiddly little notes. It works and is totally allowable. If it's different enough, you can call it a new tune, if not, it's a version (or an adatpation if it's nearly identical).

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: KateG
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:12 AM

As noted above, new words to old tunes has a long and honorable history. The only catch is to make sure that the old tune is in the public domaine. At one point I was involved in a city centennial project and we had this guy who was mortally offended that we wouldn't use the songs he wrote about the city. Trouble was, he was using the tunes, and sometimes chunks of the words, of popular tunes about other cities...all modern and most definately under copyright.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: duuuude
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 04:22 PM

Where do you find if a tune is in "public domain"?

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 04:51 PM

Unless you are trying to make money out of it, you can generally do anything you like with any song you like.

All tunes are variants of other tunes.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Stewart
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 07:46 PM

New words to the Irish reel "The Maid Behind the Bar"
(From Mel Bay's Complete Irish Fiddle Player by Peter Cooper)

Oh, there was a maid behind the bar
and that was where she stayed
Though her friends all cried 'Come out! Come out!,'
they never could persuade
The maid behind the bar to move -
she never would come out,
Her sole purpose on this earthly plane
was serving mugs of stout.

Oh, unambitious serving maid,
she's overworked and underpaid
Has she no longing to be free?
no existential agony?
While serving beers and stouts
to ungrateful drunken louts,
Oh, is it too late to change her fate,
the maid behind the bar?

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Jock Morris
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:11 PM

Matt McGinn was a great songwriter but not a tune-smith, so he wrote dozens of songs to existing tunes. If it was good enough for him then I don't see why you shouldn't do it. Just be sure to clear it with the composer of the tune if you ever decide to publish/record the song.

Scott

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 12:40 AM

Look up copyright and maybe the country, and you should find official sites. Different countries have different laws. I've never searched because I don't make any money. But in the US a copyright is now considered effective at conception, regardless of filing, and it runs lifetime of composer plus a lot of years, or if work-for hire, some number of years, I forget. Librarians can be very helpful with this stuff--books can get out of date. Dates are the whole question.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Ely
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 08:36 PM

I've only done this with public-domain tunes (really old ones, or ones with no known composers), but I've done it.

Most songs' lyrics don't fit the same meter from one verse to the next. I've written lots of dulcimer tab with lyrics and I just write it once with the assumption that whoever plays it will be smart enough to figure it out.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 03 - 04:43 PM

thanks everyone...but what i meant is that a certain project i am working on...the words don't jive right with the tune whne it is set on paper....so i have been having a helluva time trying to get them to fit together....

Think I may try snuffy's idea...

thanks everyone.

amergin

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: MMario
Date: 29 May 03 - 04:49 PM

amergin - believe me - it't a common problem. When trying to set lyrics to tunes for the DT I frequently can sing the damn thing to the tune - but can't fit the words to the notes!!!!!

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 29 May 03 - 04:53 PM

So, Mmario...do you do like what snuffy suggested? or do you try something else?

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Burke
Date: 29 May 03 - 05:32 PM

You said "with a syllable for each note" If this what you are trying, you'll never have it right. Lots of syllables are sung over several notes. Notation usually has slurs or ties showing where it's done.

If you've really got different numbers of syllables than the original words, what others have said applies. So long as it works there's no rule against it. If you want to get compulsive, look at the notes you have and figure out where you are singing it the same & where you sing differently than the original & what you see as written. You don't have to read music well to do this. Just notice where notes are relatively longer, or shorter, repeated, an extra grace note or passing tone stuck in, or one left out. You could mark your variations if you want to.

Also remember, it's probably only choirs that sing anything just as written. Especially for transcriptions from oral tradition, the written music is really more an outline.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: MMario
Date: 29 May 03 - 09:41 PM

what burke and snuffy said. (What I usually try to do Amergin is find someone who KNOWS how the lyrics fi)t - but if you are writing them and you can sing them to the tune - then you have to figure out what you are doing when you sing. Usually it's either splitting a note or slurring a number of notes. Sometimes it's dropping a note from the vocal line.

I went nuts trying to fit lyrics one time until I realized that when I SANG the thing there was a pair of notes at the end of one line I didn't sing anything to!

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 30 May 03 - 12:14 AM

Matt McGinn did write one "serious" song: the very lovely "The Rolling Hills of the Border". I've heard that he was greatly chagrined when it was parodized by John Roberts and Tony Barrand into "The Rolling Mills of New Jersey". Turnabout's fair play, I suppose.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 30 May 03 - 09:49 AM

As a musically challenged person, I find that putting the song into my computer with an A to D converter allows me to compare what I do with what I believe I wrote.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 03 - 09:52 AM

an A to D converter? say WHAT? or am I just missing a joke here...

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: jeffp
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:23 AM

An analog to digital converter, Mmario. A digitizer for sound.

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 May 03 - 06:03 PM

I use a G to Bb converter myself

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Frankham
Date: 30 May 03 - 07:36 PM

Amergin, I believe that the better songwriters who really know their craft can make each stanza have the same syllables if they choose to. Sometimes it's not necessary as long as it sings naturally.
The best songwriters in my view were the ones that wrote for the Broadway stage. Most of it was rhymed well (no false rhymes)and interior rhymes, and all kinds of devices were used in a controlled fashion. Folk music isn't like that.

To write a folk-like song, I don't think the same rules apply. It can be freer (and sloppier).

In the folk-style sometimes the "rules" can be discarded in favor of the image.

If the words don't scan to the melody there are two options.

1. Change the tune.
2. Attempt to rewrite it until it does fit.

The first way might make another song out of it.

The second will give you mastery over your craft but you might not find it useful to perform unless it's a funny parody.

When you can, I believe it's better to make each syllable of a stanza correspond.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: writing words to established tunes
From: Micca
Date: 30 May 03 - 07:51 PM

Amergin, get hold of Noteworthy, it has a gizmo that allows you to fit lyrics to tunes!! and you can (by using hyphens ) spread a syllable over several notes too, I am finding this really helpful as I dont play instruments and often write words to existing tunes.
With your specific problem, if you have different numbers of syllables in lines in different verses , simply copy the tune and add the different lyric/verse to the copied tune!! It works!