BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.

Subject: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:51 AM

Hi.
I did my best to check and see if a similar thread to this has appeared before and came up empty.

A few nights ago at a friends place this topic came up and one person mentioned some of the symptoms of the affliction. My ears really perked up because it appeared that I had EVERY ONE (mentioned).

Things like leaving doors and cupboards open (constantly), the inability to follow through on ANYTHING that doesn't interest me. The very tight focus on stuff that DOES fascinate me. The (inadvertant) constantly going off on conversational tangents (does this have anything to do with my over-use of brackets) and the almost instant boredom I feel when topics that DON'T interest me are being discussed (often resulting in jokes). Is impatience with folks who don't "get" things, also a symptom?

It's not that all this behaviour came as a surprise to me, because anyone who's read stuff I write at Mudcat knows about the humour-mileage I get from my bizarre battles with schools and adolescent-hood in general.

What I WASN'T aware of was that it may be part of a 'named' condition. I'm big on 'personal responsibility' and not blaming your fuck-ups on other people or things....I'd rather make jokes than whine.

AlSO...I think I may have always had conditions mixed up in my mind. I thought that ADD was what those little kids in football helmets had, and since I was never much of a hyper type, wouldn't have connected it with me.

Both Heather and Mudcat Jeri also say they see some of those symptoms in themselves......but the thing that I was really mistaken about was that this stuff happened in childhood and then you just (the ones that did) 'grew out of it. I STILL have all the symptoms mentioned the other night. I guess there are "high functioning" folks with this condition as well as those who've found it quite debilitating.

Any thoughts and feedback appreciated. You KNOW how much I value "Vox Populi" over 'Google Searches', ha ha!

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:17 PM

Lots of doctors have ADD. They benefitted from it in school by being 'highly focused' as you described...developed incredible study skills and excelled as a result. Lots of lawyers and writers, etc have it. Unfortunately, the federal govt in the US is now killing a whole new generation of such adults with Ritalin and other lobotomizing drugs in public schools. Get your kids off the drugs, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:18 PM

Rick, our son, now 24 has it and the mando player (40 something) in our band has it. Luke was diagnosed at age 6 in first grade. I knew something was wrong when he came home from school the first day of Kindergarden. A formerly happy, healthy boy was SO ANGRY I couldn't believe it. Took almost 2 yrs to get a diagnosis. He did the Ritalin thing until about 7th grade when I couldn't force him to take it anymore.

He had serious problems graduating from high school, but he finally did. He has also had numerous brushes with the Law due to an intolerance for Authority. He has never outgrown any of it, but did finally get Anger Management Counseling and has learned a lot of control with behaviour modification.

The 40 yr. old mando player knew for years that something was wrong but it was not dianosed until about 5 yrs ago. She was a teacher in high school and not very effective at all. The kids all said anybody could get straight A's in her class and do nothing at all. They made a lot of fun of her. Ritalin mostly seems not to work with people over puberty, but sometimes antihistamines do. They did not for her, and she is learning behaviour modification now too. Says it's helping some, but is a slow process.

And some children do outgrow all the symptoms, but not many. Most will outgrow a few symptoms and with help from parents and teachers can learn to re route a lot of behaviours.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:39 PM

My brother has always been that way, Rick, though never diagnosed. Now, though, I think some of his inability to concentrate on things that don't interest him and/or on practical matters has a lot to do with depression, too.

I also think he fits a lot of the profile for Asperger's Syndrome, which you may read about in Musicians with Asperger's Syndrome. There are some interesting post in there, esp. Harvey Andrews's.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:44 PM

I think each case is different. Luke was never really focused on anything at all. Well, maybe sharp, pointey things that almost always got/get him in trouble.......

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Peg
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 01:32 PM

The symptoms of this are a bit too "catch-all" and difficult to accurately "diagnose" (since it is a syndrome and not a disease with an organic cause) which results, unfortunately, in the inapppropriate and overly-zealous medication of kids; in some day care centers kids arte not allowed to be there unless their parents medicate them...

People past the teenage years should not use Ritalin. Adults with ADD should look into behavior modification and therapy for this. Often the very basic problems one experiences can be addressed quite directly.

I have it, too, and have had it since I was a kid, though no one understood it, then. I was the "dreamy kid looking out the window bored in class and not paying attention to the rules of how to play softball" rather than the "hyper troublesome kid who does poorly in school" type...I did have emotional and temper problems, too, but this may have been a function of the environment I grew up in (though I was more troubled than my siblings when very young). I was very successful in academics and school activities, though a bit of a loner for years...

The "dreamy" ADD kids kids often turn into highly creative intelligent adults who have trouble functioning in "normal" social situations (they misread cues because of focus problems, NOT in the same way of Asperger's Syndrome, for whom social cues are often unreadable), and who have problems with organization, motivation, procrastination, focus and follow-through. This can create problems with professional advancement, money, and relationships, just for starters. They may have what appear to be highly-disordered surroundings, but certain aspects of their lives are highly-controlled.

A great book on it is Driven to Distraction, by a doctor who specializes in diagnosis and treatment in kids and adults...

peg

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 01:39 PM

It turns out I am attention deficit as well. I was always an underachiever in school and counselors and parents were constantly telling me I wasn't working at my potential. Of course ADD hadn't been invented back then so I was just a problem kid.

A couple of years ago I'd been complaining to my doctor that I thought I was loosing intellect; a big problem since my very survival depends entirely my intellect. That complaint, together with other things I didn't realize were related prompted my doctor to schedule me for a sleep study. Turned out I have sleep apnea and my brain has probably spent a considerable amount of time starved for oxygen. She (the doctor) also sent me for a psycological evaluation—probably to see if I was depressed.

It turned out I wasn't depressed and my IQ testing ranked me "far above" the 99th percentile. That impressed the psycologist so it was tough trying to make the case that I was becoming stupid. I didn't bother to tell her that, even though my present IQ would get me into MENSA, it was still 19 points lower than it used to be.

The psycologist also kept finding different ways to ask me if I had been disruptive in school as a child or had other behavior problems. I kept saying no, not understanding why she kept asking. Then she told me I had ADD/ADHD and most likely have been that way all my life. It turns out that, because my mind was quick and creative, all my hyperactivity was acted out in daydreams since my own head was a far more diverse and exciting place to run loose than the physical world around me.

To this day I can be in an important situation—e.g., meeting an important business associate—and my head will suddenly start a special showing of some "movie" it's cooked up and force me to watch it. Until the "movie" had ended, I'm totally unable to focus back in the real world. I'm focused and effective when working with something I'm obsessive about but even those things must be completed in pretty short order or I'll lose focus and drift off into some other endeavor.

The psycologist offered to prescribe drugs to help with the ADD but I said no. I've been this way all my life and I've pretty much learned how to make it work for me. Still, learning that I have ADHD helped to explain a whole lot in my life that I could never really understand before.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST,A Long Time Catter
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 02:35 PM

Logged out because I don't post personal things on the net, but I was diagnosed with this a few years ago. Other than the Mensa reference, I would have posted most of what Peg and Mark did. I am taking medication and it seems to be working for me. My focus is much better and I am able to complete things fairly easily. I thought that it was something that Psychologists had come up with as a catch all for most messed up kids, and was leary when mine brought it up as a possibility. But the more he discussed it, the more possible it seemed. I took the tests, they indicated that I could be the Poster Child for it. I wish I had known about it 35 years ago.         

Peg, why do you say that adults shouldn't take Ritalin?

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Peg
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 02:54 PM

Guest, I have read that Ritalin not only loses effectiveness n treating ADD or ADHD past a certain age, but also that it can cause problems in adults. The very basic explanation I have heard is that Ritalin "relaxes" hyperactive childrne, but acts as a stimulant in adults...

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:47 PM

Mark & Peg, your words on being labeled an underachieve and disruptive kid mirror my own experience. My parents were constantly told by my teachers that I wasn't applying myself. Luckily, my parents could see how hard I tried to do things I wasn't interested in and how painful it was for me, and they stuck up for me - to the point where I was unaware what my teachers had told them and can't really remember feeling bad about myself. (Except when I got into trouble for doing my own thing when class got boring.)

Rick, I think there must be degrees of this. Also, some folks learned to cope better than others. I'm thinking the label 'disorder' may just not be right. It seems more like a type of personality. If you find a niche in the world where your personality is compatable, or even helps your life, there's no problem. If you go the square-peg-in-round-hole route, you're life's gonna be miserable.

I think I have most of the symptoms. Maybe the biggest one is that I'm still wondering what I want to be when I grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:54 PM

I have certain aspects of ADD. My biggest problem is working through boring things to get to a goal. For instance, doing scales to learn to read music properly, or doing boring work for a boring class to get an advanced degree. I do really well when I'm noodling around on an instrument or tying weird thoughts together for a short story. I also like doing puzzles ( both jigsaw and mind ). So I guess I'm somewhat ADD, but who cares? I like unorganized daydreaming!

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 07:21 PM

There are indeed different levels. Any decent Dr. will tell you so. I agree that Ritalin or drugs are NOT for everyone with a problem, but it was a lifesaver for Luke. I just might have killed him, seriously.

Ritalin is only one molecule different from methamphetimine/speed. On persons below puberty it acts as a calming agent. Usually (not always) after puberty it acts like speed. Not good if you are already hyper. I firmly believe that my Mom was ADHD. She was disorganized, unable to finish a task because she saw another one, then another etc. and started them all. Other things too.

People with this problem are often more intelligent than the norm if you can test properly then find something they are interested in. For many it is arts or vocational work such as mechanic. They usually do not do well in office or 'people' related work such as sales.

Luke tried to work in a meat market and fast food joint--he hated it, hated the people, wanted to be rude to the customers, etc. Now he is a mechanic and very happy just talking to cars. They don't let him close to the car owners--he has been known to throw wrenches. "You stupid f**k! Get outta my face and let me fix your f***ing car!"

I personlly think that something about it is inherited somehow. Back in the 1800/early 1900's these kids just dropped out of school and went to work for the family business. Now, we are seeing more diagnoses because almost ALL children are expected to finish at least 12 grades of school. I also think (seriously!) that the increase in high voltage, unshielded power lines and microwave towers might have something to do with it.

Also, statisticlly, boys are about 6 times more likely to be diagnosed with it. I guess girls are just supposed to be scatterbrained..........

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: mg
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 08:54 PM

also what do we feed children or allow them to eat? Foods that don't exist in nature (shouldn't call them foods). A lot of the symptoms of ADD mimic those of hypoglycemia...

Also, how are brains supposed to develop without the right fats? Likewise endocrine systems. Phat Phobias have scared mothers (maybe fathers too) from feeding their children traditional fats..

Also check out the literature on soybeans. Especially soy infant formula. Scary stuff. Use as a last resort if your baby is starving..other than that check stuff out carefully. They say it is like giving them birth control pills.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 09:18 PM

Was anyone worried about fats (except for them being fattening) or eating soy in the US in the 50s and 60s?.

I don't think my diet differed much from any of the other kids I knew.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:09 PM

Hi Rick, Driven to Distraction is still a great read about add/adhd but it's near 10yrs old now & there are a good group of books with more recent studies, updates & findings. While trying to nail down my son's disorders (tourettes, mild ocd, add along with being bi-polar) I realized that not only was I adhd from jump street but my mother, my half brother, 1 of his kids & 1 maybe 2 of his grandchildren are effected by add. So my idea of what a (mine) normal, healthy family environment got completely trashed. My sister's psychiatrist told her, because of her family's history she wouldn't know normal if it bit & hit her & that she's done so well despite her family environment (she's not add) that it wasn't a good idea to open up that can of worms. Except for my mother, who at this point in her life (70's) won't bother with meds (she thinks it might slow her down), the rest of us take medications & we're all so much the better for. It's not a food thing nor an environmental thing nor is it physco babble or an excuse, it's the real deal & without living it of being part of someone life who lives it, it's hard to take it for what it is, a disorder. When I look back into my youth not only am I amazed that I'm still alive after using up more than my share on my 9 lives but at how much I was disabled by it. I always wondered why the teachers said I wasn't trying even though I was quite bright (ok, as a child), I was always so bored & looking out "the window" that by the time I came back to check in (not minutes but sometimes hrs or days) I was so far behind that it wasn't worth it to catch up. My wife is still in shock at how my family communicates with one another or how we can all be working on something while watching tv & carrying on a 4 way conversation. Hell, it easy when you're trying to focus on someone while carrying on a 5way conversation in your head that won't stop (with the meds I've narrowed it down somewhat). For my son (& me) school was a huge problem. He gets the same from the teachers & administration, that he's not working up to his potential "& being such a bright boy too". It's hard for them to understand that kids like this often are putting most of their energy into trying to appear normal & not to seem out of place or to stick out & that after fighting this day in & day out never mind trying to survive against the odds, that there's not much room, time or energy left over for them to try to make an honor roll. By the time I was 14 I ran off to New York City trying to jump a ship for England, for no other reason than excitement By 17 I was off across country (to San Francisco) for a month long adventure. Being a risk junkie was just a part of who I was, a wild kind of a kid. There is a theory (can't remember where I heard it) that add/adhd is unusually high in Canada & the USA is because it was settled by explorers & adventures, thrill seekers & risk takers, those in search of something new or different, all of which run strong in those affected by add & looking at my family 'it does tend to get passed on', not to all but it does like familiar blood. Some of us are an impulsive & distractible lot that thrive on crisis management & last minute pressures. My wife & daughter can usually tell right off if I've missed my meds, I can't see it but I know that they're my best barometer. I don't think the meds change the personality much (by now it a part of what some of us are) & that it's hard to see a difference but the "Head Movies" that Mark mentioned, Peg's dreamy daydreaming & the 4 way head conversions, when they are there, aren't nearly as distracting & focusing becomes a little bit easier. Well there you go Rick for a bit of feedback & for some thoughts on the subject & for my 2 cents that you probably didn't ask for or at least wished I'd kept it down to a dime or a quarter. Do check it out, it's at least somewhat satisfying to know if & how much this affects you & that there may have been a reason that explains a lot of the whys & sheds a bit of light on what makes us who & what we are. Sorry about being so long winded. Good night Rick & all the best. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:24 PM

Yes, I agree Barry. It would take pages to detail Luke's Adventures. But, he is MUCH better now at age 24.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Janie
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:57 PM

I disagree that ADHD does not have an organic etiology. We don't know what may be happening in the brain, but it is increasingly evident that there is an organic component to all of the mental disorders, including personality disorders. There are many tools for people to learn and adapt to help them function in general society, especially behavioral modification strategies and cognitive therapy. Medications should also be viewed as possible tools. Each person is different and finding out what works for you, including medication, will take some time and experimentation.

Many people with ADHD are able to create a niche for themselves in which many of the symptoms of ADHD become adaptive strategies for success or survival. Instead of continuing to fit into a round hole, they find or create a square one. They may continue to have difficulty in relationships, in part because of difficulty in regulating their affect.

There is a huge difference in the effect on one's life between the mimimal symptoms needed to make a diagnosis and someone with all, or nearly all, of the signs and symptoms to an extreme degree.

It is probably overdiagnosed in children and underdiagnosed in adults.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:06 AM

I have always considered my condition, "normal." All others are handicapped. If they only understood the blessings of ADD they would quickly opt IN for your's and my view of the world, Mr. Fielding.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Five, six, seven tasks at once no problem. Don't sweat the little stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:10 AM

The fact that there is an organic component to all mental disorders is akin to pointing out that all unpleasant telephonic messages have an electronic component. It does not support the notion that it is the electronics that is speaking or composing the unpleasant messages. Knowing the parts of the system is not the same as understanding who is driving the system.

It is problematic, IMHO, to assert that ADD is in fact always the same syndrome, as though it always had a common etiology. It strikes me as something like asserting, for example that anyone who is lost in thought is lost in the same sort of thought, whether it is an Einstein or a teeniebopper. Viva la difference!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:01 AM

Rick and I have already talked about this in public (!) and I think that apart from students with serious attention problems, which are pretty easy to spot, most of the rest of this is nonsense -- labelling something that isn't improved by labelling (e.g. weapons of mass destruction, which obscures more than it enlightens). It is a lack of being given support or direction in childhood towards an appropriate focus, not a lack of focus. Schools are lousy for very bright children who need individual attention.

People who leave shelves open and so on are simply introverts whose minds are elsewhere -- the famous absent minded guitar teacher (sorry, professor).

The one area of this that does seem to me to be worth further work is the vast amount of television watching that goes on. This has to affect small children because of the jumpcuts and speed of flickering from one subject to another. Cultures that go in for slow storytelling to children have to inculcate different mental practices than those that put the kids in front of a box for hours at a time. Keeping the attention of today's teens is a serious problem in classrooms, and has nothing to do with ADD (unless television culture is ADD, which I would certainly subscribe to). Nevertheless, we are still talking learned behaviour here, not wiring.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:20 AM

I'm just thankful that my kid doesn't have time for TV. Too busy with schoolwork, outdoor sports & music. There are lots of kids like that - they're not all TV/Computer geeks - hurrah!

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Dead Horse
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:00 AM

I personally, have never suffered from .........

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:08 AM

I have it, as does my son. He showed signs of it when he was only a few weeks old. I believe that ADD/ADHD is a little sister to autism. In his first few months of life, my son required constant stimulation or he would throw fits. So I would carry him around all day showing him things that were visually interesting. He and I are both very prone to becoming overstimulated though, and by the end of the day, he would need to spend an hour or two screaming and thrashing about to get it out of his system.

Having ADD myself, I understood him pretty well, and didn't label him a "bad" kid. I would just lay him across my lap and let him get it out of his system, and after a while he would calm down.

In my opinion, in cases like this, labeling people with the disorder is not a bad thing (although giving them lables laden with value judgements, like "underachiever" or "bad", is). It's way better to know why and in what ways I'm different from what is considered "normal". Knowing this gives me the opportunity to understand my strengths and weaknesses, and to develop coping strategies. And it helps me understand why I sometimes feel like a stranger to this planet, and believe me, it's good to know these things.

Ritalin and other drugs like it are stimulants, as has been mentioned before. To the extent that they have a calming effect, it is precisely because they are stimulants. In the brains of people with ADD/ADHD, some areas of the brain aren't functioning properly. Ritalin and other drugs like it stimulate the areas of the brain that aren't working properly - stimulating them to do their job. These are the areas responsible for focus, impulse control, and other functions that are typically deficit areas for people with ADD/ADHD.

I tried Ritalin with my son, but I didn't like the effect it had on him. He lost a lot of his appetite and had a lot of trouble falling asleep when he was on the Ritalin. When his school situation became unworkable, I withdrew him from public school, and schooled him at home. About a year later, he was enrolled in a school system that had a much better program for kids like him.

He's doing great now. He's in his second year of college, majoring in film. He completed the filming on his first full-length movie a few weeks ago, and he intends to submit it to the Sundance Film Festival when he's completed the editing, etc. He has to work harder than most kids with his intelligence level, to perform up to standard for his school, but knowing what his areas of weakness are makes it possible for him to work around them instead of beating his head against them and failing.

Things worked out pretty well for me, too. JtS has an IQ in the genius range, and he said that most people start to bore him after a little while. But he says he never gets bored with me. So while my ADD was a problem with the other relationships I've been in, I think it's a part of what makes my marriage to JtS work. But I'm still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Peg
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:30 AM

great anecdotal evidence there, Barry!

I must say I do somewhat agree with Mary, that hypoglycemia can in fact present very similar symptoms to ADD/ADHD, and that nutrition can go a long way towards helping kids develop properly (and adults function at the top of their game). BUt I would imagine it is difficult to figure out which symptom belongs with which cause. A good start: get kids (and adults) eating properly and exercising and see if it helps.

Well-meaning parents feeding their overweight kids artificial sweeteners and things like "fat-free cheese" (huh??) are not helping matters...

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:20 AM

Barry, I hope you don't mind if I break up your narrative. It's important and interesting but hard for me to read...

Quote:

"Hi Rick, Driven to Distraction is still a great read about add/adhd but it's near 10yrs old now & there are a good group of books with more recent studies, updates & findings.

While trying to nail down my son's disorders (tourettes, mild ocd, add along with being bi-polar) I realized that not only was I adhd from jump street but my mother, my half brother, 1 of his kids & 1 maybe 2 of his grandchildren are effected by add. So my idea of what a (mine) normal, healthy family environment got completely trashed.

My sister's psychiatrist told her, because of her family's history she wouldn't know normal if it bit & hit her & that she's done so well despite her family environment (she's not add) that it wasn't a good idea to open up that can of worms.

Except for my mother, who at this point in her life (70's) won't bother with meds (she thinks it might slow her down), the rest of us take medications & we're all so much the better for. It's not a food thing nor an environmental thing nor is it physco babble or an excuse, it's the real deal & without living it of being part of someone life who lives it, it's hard to take it for what it is, a disorder.

When I look back into my youth not only am I amazed that I'm still alive after using up more than my share on my 9 lives but at how much I was disabled by it. I always wondered why the teachers said I wasn't trying even though I was quite bright (ok, as a child), I was always so bored & looking out "the window" that by the time I came back to check in (not minutes but sometimes hrs or days) I was so far behind that it wasn't worth it to catch up.

My wife is still in shock at how my family communicates with one another or how we can all be working on something while watching tv & carrying on a 4 way conversation. Hell, it easy when you're trying to focus on someone while carrying on a 5way conversation in your head that won't stop (with the meds I've narrowed it down somewhat).

For my son (& me) school was a huge problem. He gets the same from the teachers & administration, that he's not working up to his potential "& being such a bright boy too". It's hard for them to understand that kids like this often are putting most of their energy into trying to appear normal & not to seem out of place or to stick out & that after fighting this day in & day out never mind trying to survive against the odds, that there's not much room, time or energy left over for them to try to make an honor roll.

By the time I was 14 I ran off to New York City trying to jump a ship for England, for no other reason than excitement By 17 I was off across country (to San Francisco) for a month long adventure. Being a risk junkie was just a part of who I was, a wild kind of a kid. There is a theory (can't remember where I heard it) that add/adhd is unusually high in Canada & the USA is because it was settled by explorers & adventures, thrill seekers & risk takers, those in search of something new or different, all of which run strong in those affected by add & looking at my family 'it does tend to get passed on', not to all but it does like familiar blood. Some of us are an impulsive & distractible lot that thrive on crisis management & last minute pressures.

My wife & daughter can usually tell right off if I've missed my meds, I can't see it but I know that they're my best barometer. I don't think the meds change the personality much (by now it a part of what some of us are) & that it's hard to see a difference but the "Head Movies" that Mark mentioned, Peg's dreamy daydreaming & the 4 way head conversions, when they are there, aren't nearly as distracting & focusing becomes a little bit easier.

Well there you go Rick for a bit of feedback & for some thoughts on the subject & for my 2 cents that you probably didn't ask for or at least wished I'd kept it down to a dime or a quarter. Do check it out, it's at least somewhat satisfying to know if & how much this affects you & that there may have been a reason that explains a lot of the whys & sheds a bit of light on what makes us who & what we are.

Sorry about being so long winded. Good night Rick & all the best. Barry "

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:29 AM

PeterT, you couldn't have described my Rog more accurately: People who leave shelves open and so on are simply introverts whose minds are elsewhere -- !

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:51 AM

As my parents always used to say - "stop paying attention and pay attention!"

I'm convinced that for some it isn't ADD but ACD (Attention Complexity disorder)

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:05 PM

Hi Ebbie, no I don't mind at all. My thoughts & speach still run like that sometimes & I lose track & people. Thanks.

TV as a kid, we hardly watched it (there were 3 channels back then). My mother never had a tv until she was married. Food, you'd never convince anyone in my family, though my mother has been an extreme health food freak for maybe the past 15 or 20 yrs or so, no change there either.

I do believe some of it is learned behavior. You'd swear my sister was adhd but she's not (maybe she watched to much tv & ate different foods, not). Our theory (my family's) is that she grew up in a family & enviorment of miswired people & for her, she was as normal as the rest of us (poor girl). Add/adha relatives (IMHO) have a slightly odd way of communacating with one another.

When we have a family get together & my wife's family joins ours her side is in awe that those on my side can understand anything that we're saying. Just a little problem with trying to focus? Try 5 different conversions (in you're head) while watching the tv & listening to music & you're on the phone & being able to keep track of it all, that's normal.

Then try to focus on a task or school lesson or work through getting a job done & it's not that easy anymore. Try turning off every thing but you can't get rid of the conversions in your head. You focus & try & you gain a little then WHAM you're name gets called & you realize that you some how got distracted again & were lost in a conversion going on in your head & you try again this time fighting to say on course, Wham you've just been shaken out of where ever it was you were. Earth to ____, fill in the blank.

Then there's hyperfocusing, constantly improving or researching or whatever. Nothing gets in their way (sometimes a problem in it's self). These types are easy to spot (Peter), not, not even in todays schools. Schools are lousy for "bright children". Guess what, look around they're also lousy for the "not so bright children". Alot of schools are ok for the well rounded kids that fit into that round hole though.

I fight every step of the way for my kid (in the schools) & he's way beyond add, even with plans, teams & supports in place most of the time it's beyond being believed or tossed off as physco babble or I can't or won't ajust my teaching style to an individual needs (who's there for what reasons?). Yet it's the same, why can't he focus, why can't he just write it down, why can't he remember? Why don't ask your blind student "why can't you look at this" or the deaf student "why don't you listen to me"? Both have the expection that they are able to do these things until one says I can't hear you or another says you jerk I can't see.

Kids with high IQ's who have wiring disorders also are expected to function like the others (unless they hang a sign around their neck & even then ****) but they can't, just like the blind kid can't see no matter what you say, do or try & it's no more their fault than anyone one else's. Some may only have vision in one eye others may not be able to see at a distence or up close others might have a mild hearing problem, still others may only be mildly add, it's still the same only the degrees are different. Then there's the kids whose hand is always in the air answering & asking, very bright, challenging the teacher. That kid usually doesn't get someone who has the capablities of ajusting their teaching style for the individual, a good bit of the time they're tossed aside because they're looked at as a pain in the ass.

As an adult (& with some kids that are aware of this) with add/adhd if a coping or a support system or just plain awareness is in place this can be used & put to an advantage, the up sides & silver linings abound if they can be tapped but that's in the next chapter. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:11 PM

Good post, Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Chip2447
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 01:14 AM

I've got ADD, (no hyper in this kid). Some facets of ot are nice, while some are a royal pain in the ass. I find most of my problems with it come from people I interact with, cant understnad how I can carry on 2 or more conversations at once, or how I can read, listen to music with one ear, news or talk radio with the other, and have the tv going all at once, and can keep up with all of it

I've come to grips with it, and have actually gotten accustomed to it.

How many ADD kids does it take to change a light bulb?

...........

Hey guys, lets go ride our bikes....

Chip2447

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:46 AM

Guy at work: "I sometimes wonder if I have ADD because...HEY! Nice tie!

Barry, you're absolutely right - no surprise. Most schools are aimed at teaching the most kids the most stuff. They usually don't have the teachers or time to focus on kids who don't fit the mold. I got lucky and had ONE teacher who worked with my parents and I, and she's probably the reason I can function.

People often think that the problems ADD causes are because a kid just isn't trying enough, as if it were a matter of willpower. It's like pain. You can be in intense pain, but your family, friends and doctor may think you're just a weak whiner. They can't sense your pain, so they either trust you when you tell them about it or they think you're lying, exaggerating, doing it to get attention, etc.

It's been my experience that ADD people get along together because they DO accept what others tell them.   "I can't do that because I'm not interested." Other folks may wonder why you just won't get interested because it's important to them. They think you're just plain rude, selfish, or uncaring. Of course, there are a whole lot of people who do understand, perhaps, like Barry's non-ADD family members, they're the ones who've grown up around folks with ADD. Perhaps they're just a little more accepting of differences.

And see - I'm so focused on typing this that I'm gonna be late for work! Haha...

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:54 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:30 AM

One of the difficulties that I've had is that I've ALWAYS connected the (apparent) ADD stuff with humour, anecdotes etc. Other than feeling sorry that I let my parents down so badly, I've rarely even considered that it could have been something completely beyond my control.

Like others here, I tested through the roof on IQ thingies, but still managed to be the 'stupidist' person in school. Because I missed a lot of school, both parents and teachers always opined that "next year will be different". It never was, because the illnesses that kept me home were for the most part faked, and eventually I ran out of time. I believe that after reapeating grades 9, 10, and part of 11, I was expelled (it's a grey fuzzy area that generally I play for laughs...but not right now.)

Of course, to just take two of the things I was passionately interested in...folk music and baseball...no one would have thought there was anything wrong. My knowledge of both was practically encyclopaedic and I learned to play very quickly. But most other things were practically hopeless. My other passion for cartooning never seemed to be affected....BUT...turning that into a way of earning a living was a complete failure. Thank goodness for songs and the guitar and banjo!!

I'm really enjoying the responses here. Thanks my friends.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: harvey andrews
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:29 AM

I might be setting myself up for rock throwing here, but here are a couple of thoughts.

"I have always considered my condition, "normal." All others are handicapped. If they only understood the blessings of ADD they would quickly opt IN for your's and my view of the world, Mr. Fielding."

There's a lot of sense in that. It's no deficit to be bored by what you find boring, to be fascinated by what you find interesting. If your mind is layered, the unlayered mind is difficult to deal with. I don't have small talk because I'm not interested in what most people talk small about...soap operas, "Big Brother", celebrities,etc and they are not interested in my small talk...because it's about stuff that's not on their wavelength. However, I could talk my idea of small talk with Rick for a week and never get bored and we'd go off on all sorts of tangents.
My son has a new high speed connection to his computer that gives him instant access in a split second. When he visits and uses mine he gets quickly impatient with my slow access, shouting at the screen and puffing and blowing with exasperation. Understandably! he's used to the fast connection. Now, if my computer and his computer were human brains, which computer would he choose as his friend?

The "problem" could well be that society in general is calling the creative, bright, intelligent people "disordered" because they want to go at a faster pace to a different place.
It's very interesting that many of the above posters have high IQ's
Why is it that society in general abhors such people, and why is it they have to learn so many stratagems, many based on humour, to get through a day lived among them?

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:54 AM

What? Eh? Sorry, I wasn't concentrating did someone say something? Yes, I was listening, dear, why didn't I do what you asked me then? Well,I was reading my book, one eye on the silent tv and listening to Rick Fielding on the HiFi when I noticed an interesting article on the back of the newspaper you were reading.....

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST,snooze
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 10:35 AM

ADD & narcolepsy share very similar external appearances (such as inability to concentrate on boring things....) & have been mistaken for eachother. Luckily their medication is also very similar - so it probably hasn't mattered all that much & maybe they are actually closely related?.

In narcolepsy the REM sleep surfaces unusually quickly at the onset of sleep - and can intrude into the waking state. This causes stunningly "real" auditory, visual & tactile hallucinations - which could be similar to those "movies" someone mentioned above & also rings bells with the multiple internal conversations thing. There is a theory also that some narcoleptics counteract their fatigue by artificially maintaining a high state of stimulation - both by switching their attention rapidly & by risk-taking.

Narcoleptics also tend to have high IQs - and the blessings of the condition include an amazingly rich dreamlife, unbelievably weird hypnagogic hallucinations, & (possibly consequently) a tendency toward the creative. There are downsides (& some narcos really have a very hard time - there's quite a variation in symptoms), but its good that some "disorders" have really positive sides too. Always look on the bright side of life.........

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:02 AM

The "problem" could well be that society in general is calling the creative, bright, intelligent people "disordered" because they want to go at a faster pace to a different place.

This sounds nice, but it's just waaaaaaayyyyyy.... more complicated than that.

Like others here, I tested through the roof on IQ thingies, but still managed to be the 'stupidist' person in school.

I grew up thinking I was "dumb", even though I was told that I scored high on the aptitude tests as a child. I didn't discover that I was intelligent until some time in my 30s. I think that was when I found out that I have ADD, and I started learning coping strategies to help me succeed in areas where I had always failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Peg
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:08 AM

interesting about he parallels with narcolepsy, I had never heard that...

I wonder if others with ADD also have a tendency towards lucid dreaming or being very light sleepers? I never fall asleep very deeply (it's rare for me), but sometimes if I am just sitting down and close my eyes I can lapse into waking dreams quite easily. I can be awake and aware of sounds etc. around me but nevertheless having a "dream" experience which does not allow quite the amount of control a "daydream" or fantasy does, but which allows a bit more interaction with/awareness of the dream state that, say, the dreams I have at night or just before waking...

I also tend to not be able to keep my eyes open in certain situations (like an hour after lunch when I worked at a desk job). I think this is linked to my low blood sugar, and also to the fact that in the American workplace taking a few minutes out for a nap is seen as some sort of freakish behavior, like lying on a bed of nails or bloddletting.

I also want to say, I teach a lot of college students with really bad attention span problems. I think this is just a growing trend. They also can't write effectively, and some cannot bear to hold a pen! I think a lot of this stems from the fact that very few of these kids grow up reading books with the same frequency of kids in generations before...the inability to engage in an activity and give it one's full attention might just be improved by encouraging reading...I know it was one of the only things I was able to focus on as a kid... and it just may have saved me from being a "dreamy ADD kid" who does poorly in school, instead making me one whose grades and reading/writing skills were near the top of the class. I think I was merely lucky; certainly my parents did not go out of their way to treat me as "gifted" (though maybe they should have and thank goodness a couple of my teachers did) the way so many do today.

I often wonder if treating every "average" kid as "gifted" (in the hopes they wil become so) isn't part of the problem...along with all the emphasis upon competition from very young ages...seems to me this puts too much pressure on kids, rather than allowing their natural talents or interests to develop. I also have found a lot of college age kids are spoiled brats who think they can do no wrong and think their creative endeavors are highly original and represent the highest level of skill/technique; when quite the opposite is true. I wonder if this is a result of schooling that rewards the mediocre? I know I was always worried my work did not measure up and was perplexed when it was singled out for being good. Maybe this is also linked to formation of good self esteem (something I most definitely did not have then, and have trouble with now).

The more I think about this in terms of my students's problems, comparing it to my own development, I think the preponderance of "disorders" we impose upon our kids will eventually lead us to understand the things we are doing wrong...and also to yearn for the "good old days" when kids' development was not such a big deal and parents were not so concerned that their kid be made to "measure up" somehow. Being supportive and offering choices and freedom of expression seems the best thing. Of course I haven't much idea what it's like now to attend an average American middle school.

peg

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST,snooze
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:17 AM

Peg - it might be worth your while doing a bit of an internet quest on narcolepsy - the dreaming stuff & the extreme sleepiness during the day both fit. Could be coincidence though.
HOWEVER - its not always a good idea to get formally diagnosed with narcolepsy. There's no cure - just medication (which seems to be of limited use & has a lot of side effects). Also you can lose your driving licence (depending on where you live). If you are not actually suffering as such then its better not to do the Dr thing, and better not to get on the medication treadmill!

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:55 AM

I have things to say about this, but I compose serious posts so slowly that it would take me 2 hours to get it 'right' ..

I envy my wife and many others who CAN get totally focused on something, even though they complain about the problems they have when they are interrupted.

I am convinced that [a map of the various forms of] "brain wiring" is a 3-D continuum, and that labels like ADD, while sort of useful in some contexts, tend to oversimplify (5 minutes of thinking here, trying to decide how to phrase the next bit....)

tend to oversimplify the actual variations which exist. (not satisfied yet).

Who plays any sort of video or computer games? If you do, do you play the "shoot 'em up, quick reflex, lots of noise and action type"? or the "slow, think about it, plan strategy, quiet sort"?

My brain simply does not cope with 'things jumping out & shooting at me'...I do MUCH better at complex games of solitare or games in which I can extract rules and patterns, even if there is some sort of physical coordination required to execute the rules. Yeah,,,I can beat you at FreeCell, but I cringe at DXBall or BlockOut...etc...(I did beat Mario Brothers several times, once I figgered out the inflexible patterns). ,,,and I LOVED a Nintendo of years ago called "Solomons Key"...my son can't beat it...but I can!)

anyway, if this is still 'up' after we get home next week, I'll try again...

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 05:46 PM

Bill, I bet you can't beat me at FreeCell. The only times I lose is when I just get tired of playing.

I don't know about Barry's "movies," but mine are what most people call daydreams. Well, they aren't just wistful moments. I'll start with something real and just follow it, doggedly, wherever it leads. For example, I'll hear someone say, out of the corner of my ear, "I'm going camping this weekend," and I'll think about camping...then I'll wonder where my tent is. I look for it and can't find it, so I go to the store to buy one. I'll think about what sort of tent I want and design one in my head. I also have conversations with people. Now, I don't REALLY have conversations in my head, but imagine the whole thing: dialogue, facial expressions and attitude, what the other person's wearing, where we're talking, etc.

I've only zoned out completely once that I can remember. I was in 3th grade eating lunch and 'woke up' polishing off cookies that were supposed to be part of the lunch of the girl sitting next to me. I can't even remember what 'movie' I'd been watching, but it must've been a good one! Kids were looking at me, and apparently someone had said my name about 5 times.

This whole ADD thing is only a problem for me because society MAKES it a problem. "Conform or be cast out." I think the worst part is the guilt that Rick mentions. My parents never did one thing to make me feel guilty, but I still was mad at myself for not doing better. If I'd had a nice lable like "ADD" earlier in my life, I probably would have understood why I had problems other kids didn't seem to have, I probably would have felt less stupid (I still felt stupid, even when I knew my IQ test results. Sounds like there are a few of us in that boat.) and I wouldn't have spent quite a bit of my life thinking I wouldn't be so unsuccessful if I just wasn't so damned lazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 05:48 PM

I keep coming back to this thread because it sounds like an interesting discussion, only to discover I have already read it. Why is that?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 05:54 PM

I keep coming back to this thread because it sounds like an interesting discussion, only to discover I have already read it. Why is that?

You're having flash-forwards? Or CRS?

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:42 PM

Jeri...these days I play a version of Freecell with undo, and 2 or 3 billion combinations, so there are impossible games....but if you are doing the 'regular' one, try 11982...*grin*

my current board in the big version with undos is 187-4, and I suspect that 2 of those WERE impossible...currently my favorite game is Penguin, which does have some impossible ones, and has patterns that are more interesting than FreeCell...

It is here if anyone is interested. (It is also there if NO one is interested) it is shareware, but all it does is count the days you have used it...

(oh...I remember in 3rd grade, having a teacher threaten to 'ring a bell' when reading period was over, as I never heard her voice...it embarassed me so much I worked on NOT concentrating so hard, and I have always wondered if I lost something that day.)

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:54 PM

Luke has NO trouble sleeping; he often sleeps too soundly and also still does sleepwalking sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM

Harvey,

Axis I psychiatric diagnoses, unlike most medical diagnoses, are descriptive instead of etiological, because our science and understanding of human behaviors are still in their infancy. They are also normative diagnoses (think bell curve), however, being different from the mass of people who fit into the middle 80 to 90% of the normal curve does not in and of itself warrant the diagnosis of a mental disorder. The diagnostic criteria for all (or nearly all) of what we call psychiatric diagnoses include a caveat that the signs and symptoms must cause either "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational (or academic), or other important areas of functioning."

Some people are in no personal distress at all, but the people who live and work with them are pulling their own hair out, or the person is unable to maintain a job or decent personal relationships. It is part and parcel of the human experience that there always exists this dialectic between the individual alone and the reality that we live our lives embedded in some social context. I think the reason ADHD receives much less attention in adults than in children is because children do not generally have the power to modify their social context to the extent that adults do. Once a person has acheived adulthood, if they find a niche that works for them, they no longer really have a significant problem in real time (although they have plenty of baggage from their school experience that they may have to deal with.)

Amos--the importance of recognizing the organicity is to destigmatize and help the individual and society recognize that people with ADD (or schizophrenia for that matter) are not being willfully difficult. The tension, the dialectic, continues to exist, however, because the needs of society (which are our survival needs as a species) require that individuals ultimately be responsible for their own behaviors, whether those behaviors are by choice or by wiring.

I know I'm awfully long-winded here--can't help it--I'm wired that way! *BG*

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:02 PM

Janie:

Thanks so much -- yours is the first intelligent response I rmeember getting to the issue, which I have raised numerous times in numerous threads on assorted topics.

I'm all for inducing the community to grant some slack to those whose behavior is idiosyncratic. I still am unpersuaded that the wiring events cause the cogntiive events and the behavioral events -- I am inclined to suspect that the sequence is cognitive events precipitating wiring events precipitating behavioral events. All the more reason they should be treated with due courtesies, no?

Thanks again!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:25 PM

AArrgh!!!! I just lost my entire post when I tried to submit it. The good news is, it was probably much longer than it needed to be.

Amos,

I think current neuropsychological research is pointing strongly in the direction that we are mindbodysoul, and not mind, body and soul.
It has already been demonstrated that the neural pathways are strongly influenced by the interplay of genes and very early experience. It is no longer "nature vs. nurture" but nature and nurture. I believe we will ultimately conclude that there is no "first cause" that determines behavior and personality, but that there is a complex matrix of environment, experience, and biology where these and other factors act upon one another to determine the direction in which an individuals's biopsychosocial development heads.

So cognition shapes wiring shapes cognition and cognitive structuring shapes social learning shapes emotion regulation.....

I know this is quite a bit of thread creep, but still seems to be the place to post this.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 10:04 PM

So, Rick, is any of this at all helpful?

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST,chip2447
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 01:28 AM

Peg, I'm very familiar with the dream dream state and the lucid dreaming that you descirbe. You are the first person that I've heard describe my curse/blessing so well. Here I thought I was unique.

I find the association between ADD, above average Iq's and music interesting. Gives me something more to learn about.

Very interesting Thread...

Chip2447