BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?

Subject: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 09:19 PM

Here's one well-reasoned theory about what leads to a conservative (meaning rightist) mindset. Just for your entertainment! Of course it does come from Berekeley, but so do some of the best people!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 09:35 PM

Well, Amos. I'd have to disagree with the research. In my opinion, conservatism is "pathological". It is a sickness of deep fears about unknowns and possibilities. It has never taken mankind one danged step further down the road. Quite to opposite. Conservatives create very little because of their nature. All they do is react rather than proact. Life is not in the windshield but in the rear view mirror.

That's my take...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 09:53 PM

I think I'd be interested in the original report. The article, unfortunately, put a spin on the findings in the first half before allowing the researchers to explain their conclusions. It puts the researcher on the defensive trying justify reaching certain conclusions -- the conclusions of which are hardly astounding.

If we can accept that a very broad interpretation of conservative philosophy is defending the status quo ("if it ain't broke...), while liberal as seeking change for the better because it isn't perfect, then it's hardly a leap of imagination to conclude that conservatives would generally be more resistant to change!

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 10:00 PM

A better one, imo, that I read the other day: "Stupidity is cocksure, intelligence is full of doubt."
Insert 'conservatism 'and 'liberalism' in the proper places and it pretty much spells out what I tend to believe. (On the other hand, I know a number of conservatives that I love, even if I don't understand how they developed some of their opinions. There don't seem to be any answers, darn it. But oh. We are in trouble...- and some conservatives are in deep, deep denial.)

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 10:39 PM

I know what you mean, Ebbie. I find that my interpretation of conservative philosophy varies widely from what many self-proclaimed "conservatives" are saying today. Political conservatism is NOT synonmous with hatred and rabid religiousity, but they sure seem to be trying to turn it in to that.

I have a friend who is a very thoughtful and reasoned conservative, and lots of fun to debate with because he usually knows WHY he thinks what he thinks instead of parroting some pre-programmed belief. Nonetheless he has some real blindspots about his own attitudes. For example, unlike most conservatives, he's in favor of universal healthcare coverage -- but with limits. I agree: I'd place the limits on those items necessary to physical and mental health, and exclude stuff like fertility treatments and cosmetic surgery.

This very normally articulate gentleman couldn't specify HIS definition of limits. He fumbled around with dollar figures and such, and mumbled about treatments for diseases that usually kill people, then finally blurted out, "You don't think a janitor with no money should get the same healthcare as someone like Bill Gates!"

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 10:41 PM

I'm waiting for the thread name game to place this thread in juxtaposition to the Vegemite thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 11:22 PM

You hateful bunch of creeps do the same rant over and over and over ad nauseum. Conservative people ( U.S. meaning) believe in the constitution and conduct themselves in a decent, honorable fashion, respecting others as they would like others to respect then. You cretins have invented your own definition to use as a punching bag. Your definition has no basis in reality. You are clearly the most bigoted, hateful, ignorant people this side of ....

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 11:22 PM

A few years back I was out with my brother driving around in the hills above Newberg in Oregon. There are big homes up there, each with a wonderful view. I said, It seems too bad that poor people never get a view like that. My brother was surprised. He said, Oh, I think that's fair, don't you? They have the money for it. He never understood what I was saying.

On that very subject though, there is a new thing in Juneau that I like. Housing First is a local non-profit that, as they get the money, buys real estate then builds a four-plex for low income people on it. Twice now, they've built on the mountainside overlooking the city and the ocean beyond- the tenants must have a gorgeous view.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:29 AM

I am a liberal. I never ever gamble! Bill Bennett is a conservative. He gambles a lot, (several million dollars worth, he says.) I know gambling money goes to gangsters, and other criminal types. You would think Bill Bennett would know that too, but he doesn't. I know that money spent gambling would be better spent at the local bookstore, music store, or on food for my church's food pantry. You would think that would have occurred to Bill Bennett too.
A bookstore opened in St. Ignace Michigan, last year. The local fundamentalists discovered that it would carry "Playboy" and "Penthouse" and went on the warpath. They complained to the city council, who pointed out to them that the convenience store at the gas station had been carrying the same magazines for years, and they hadn't complained about that! The story suggests these guys aren't afraid of girlie magazines. They're afraid of books.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:58 AM

Yep, Guest 11:22 is a conservative. Cocksure, ain't he?

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 07:54 AM

the article doesn't even come close to defining "conservative" as I know it to be.

Guest was inelegant, but his observations were right about the fears of most who post "below the line" here, and how those fears are expressed....
....unendingly.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 08:10 AM

Look here and be afraid. Be very afraid...;-)

Cheers

Dave the (never conservative and never young) Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Sam L
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 08:51 AM

I think you make a pretty darned good point there, Ebbie. I think the skepticism of liberals hurts them with the public, especially as t.v. candidates. One would prefer simple answers that just sound good.

One would prefer to just say We believe in the Constitution, rather than worry about the parts that condoned slavery, the inherent problems of equitable democratic representation, the kinds of questions of democracy that the framers could not forsee. So much easier to suppose our founding Dads knew everything.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: MC Fat
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 09:12 AM

Shit, keech, jobbies

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 09:25 AM

Here's a page with a bunch of pictures of Young Conservatives over the years.

And the sriking thing is, it appears to be a page not actually intended to make fun of them...

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 09:38 AM

I'm not sure that I would agree with any of the views expressed above, pro or con. And since the title deals with "young" conservatives, I'm not sure that an old conservative could answer the question. But to those who really care to understand the issue I woud invite them to research the polls presented at the recent Democratic Leadership Conference held last week in Philadelphia. C-SPAN radio carried the results in their entirety, and several papers carried a synopsis.

While I was only listening while driving, and therefore unable to take notes, the comments of the Democrat pollsters, did not bode well for the Democrats.

my recollection was that the new conservatives are coming primarily from the young married white males, young married females of any race, people with jobs in the salary range of $25,000 to $40,000, suburbanites, people with college educations or "professional credentials", etc. In addition, the Democratic party is almost evenly devided between conservative Democrats and liberals.

In short, his message is that if the Democrats select a liberal candidate for President, (ala Mondale, McGovern, Dukakis) they will repeat the "home state and DC" voter tally.

But I digress; perhaps someone who is not interested in a diatribe, could find and present the above poll results as a blue clicky. Since it is a Democrat pollster, it might be interesting for you folks to see what you are up against. Because if the new young conservatives are people who can get a higher education, find and keep a well-paying job, and raise children in intact families, you truely are in trouble...

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 09:52 AM

But according to H J Eysenck, conservatism/liberalism is largely due to nurture, while aggressivness/passiveness is largely due to nature; the two are quite independent and unconnected. This is why people don't always behave as their political views might lead you to expect.

I'm not sure that the US has anything equivalent to our Young Conservatives, though.

And Guest, its a shame more people in the government and its agencies don't beleive in upholding the Constitution, whatever their politics.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:02 AM

I used to think about conservatives that by definiton they were interested in preserving the status quo and making changes cautiously. That's more or less what the word means. However, just as the word "liberal" has been re-defined by the black PR crews in the last few years to now mean "stupid" or "naive" or "destructive" -- depends on who you listen to -- the word conservative has now grown to mean "stupid" "manipulative" "destructive" or "radically reactionary and militant".

How about we clear the air and go back to basic definitions? A liberal is someone who believes in changing more readily for the good of large groups of people, while a conservative is someone who believes in changing only slowly and preserving the strengths of those in power.

All this semantic abuse -- meaning trompling on perfectly good words in order to forward agendae or feed an angle -- is really tedious.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:30 AM

First, I must disagree with CarolC. The article in question was released by an official university source and, as such, I can't believe it wasn't checked by the authors of the study.

Scenond, When you replace the emotional terms in the report with neutral ones (pick whatever you like, as long as it fits), the report isn't much different from what I learned in high school in the early '60's. ie. Conservatives are more concerned with property rights than liberals are. Conservatives want to use old methods of problem solving and liberals want to experiment to find something better.

I think the religious element is a fairly recent overlay and should be considered as a thing in itself for the nonce.

In other words, I don't think there's anything truly new here.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:35 AM

I'm largely conservative. I don't hate anybody. I create a lot of things. I believe people should take responsibility for themselves instead of relying on The Government to take care of them; however, realizing that some people are not in a position to take care of themselves, I believe The Government should have sound, decent programs to help those people, or they should encourage and help individual communities to have programs to help those people.

I'm 35. I don't know if that makes me young or not.

Anyhow I don't appreciate sweeping generalizations about ANYONE, conservative, liberal, Christian, pagan, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:39 AM

"While I was only listening while driving, and therefore unable to take notes, the comments of the Democrat pollsters, did not bode well for the Democrats."

Actually, that was a poll commissioned by the Republicrat wing of the Democratic party (the Clintonian Democratic Leadership Council, currently bleeding to death from lack of support within the party) in an attempt to scare the Democratic wing of the Democratic party, into submission and supporting Joe Lieberman for president.

The thing is, they HAD to commission that poll, because everyone knows the Democratic wing of the Democratic party would like nothing better than to see the Republicrats move to the Republican Party, where they belong.

"...the comments of the Democrat pollsters, did not bode well for the Democrats. "

Mmmhmmm. They say. The left as boogie man. Haven't heard that one before. These are the same Democrats who insulting claim--routinely--that the Democratic Party alienates and cannot attract white males to the party as activists or voters. Which is pretty much a slap in the face to all the white male party activists and voters. The truth is, the Democratic wing of the Democratic party cannot, and does not want to attract Republican and ideologically conservative independent white male activists and voters, to join them. Nor do they need to in order to win. What they need is to be more confident and self-assured in their political positions, rather than all smarmy, feel good, tell-the-Limbaugh worshipping white-boys-what-they-want-to-hear sound bytes.

"Because if the new young conservatives are people who can get a higher education, find and keep a well-paying job, and raise children in intact families, you truely are in trouble..."

Insinuating what exactly, there Clinton? That all progressive Democrats are uneducated welfare sluts, trailer trash, and (insert racial expletive here)?

Ya know, it's funny how those Clinton Republicrats just ignore the fact that it was the progressives who voted for Nader or sat the election out, who could have won the last election for Gore.

No political clout, you say? I beg to differ. Dean is a great candidate to go against Bush precisely because he can unite the progressives and the right of the Democratic center "moderates". There are so few true conservatives remaining in the party, they are largely irrelevant, except for their money raising capabilities. But if Dean becomes the candidate (and he is no progressive, but at least, a lot of progressives could hold their nose to vote for him), the money will come.

One thing I do love about Dean is, because he is raising so much money from individuals on the internet, he hasn't become beholden (yet) to the special interests, as Kerry and the other big name candidates have been for so long. Kerry made a fatal mistake supporting the Bush war on Iraq. A fatal mistake he likely can't recover from this election cycle, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:01 AM

"One would prefer to just say We believe in the Constitution, rather than worry about the parts that condoned slavery"- Fred Miller

Please don't bring up slavery, Adolph Hitler or any of the other standard faire used by liberals to paint conservatives. My ancestors wore blue in the Civil War and they wore the U.S. uniform in WW II. There is no part of the Constitution that allows slavery. Most people in Mudcat are actually intelligent and can carry on a debate on a higher plane if they try.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:10 AM

'How about we clear the air and go back to basic definitions? A liberal is someone who believes in changing more readily for the good of large groups of people, while a conservative is someone who believes in changing only slowly and preserving the strengths of those in power."

Wow.   That sure clears the air for me! Nice to see someone can formulate an agenda-free definition. Tell me, did you really think you were being even handed, or were you being as tongue-in-cheek as I?

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:41 AM

I was being somewhat tic above but I am serious in my view that we -all of us - need to take a clear look at where we are heading. It is too late already for some things- after all, the time to adjust one's aim is before pulling the trigger.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:48 AM

Agreed, Ebbie. These are truly chaotic times in the history of the US. I think many a conservative as well as many a liberal, now regrets the reactionary measures taken in the months after 9/11.

It would be good if those who are now opposing the FCC ruling, raising doubts about the US Patriot Act, chastising the Bush administration for post-war planning and the disastrous economic course they have put this country on, could actually get together and do some brainstorming for the good of their country, instead of just their own special interest lobbies, their re-election campaigns, and their political party.

I know of only one senator who, in the wake of 9/11, had the guts to vote both his conscience, and for what he believed was for the good of the country, and that senator was not Paul Wellstone.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:50 AM

My impression is that political conservatives tend to place their first emphasis on individual freedoms...while political liberals tend to place their first emphasis on group responsibilities and rights within the group. So one is worried about what may happen to stifle the individual's rights while the other is worried about what may happen to harm the general community...which ultimately will harm the individual (specially the individual with less money and power).

But that's only one way of looking at it.

Most (if not all) people are conservative about some things and liberal about other things.

So who is really a conservative and who is really a liberal?

Most people resist change, unless it's a change that they thought of themselves! (dogs are like that too, if you will observe...)

When we talk about liberals and conservatives are we talking about politics, religion, philosophy, science, dress codes, race consciousness, economic policy, or what?

I'll say this, though: to be healthy a society must become a blend of both liberal and conservative values, and find a way to combine them creatively, not divide itself into endless wrangling and combat over what is the essential divide (like masculine and feminine) in human psychology. The divide is not meant to provoke war, it is meant to provoke useful partnerships and new growth.

That's why Doug R and I are going to go on that fishing trip one of these days... :-)

Oh, and young conservatives are made of Kraft cheese and polyester. Young liberals are made of blue denim and guacamole. That's all you need to know.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:53 AM

Guest of 10:39 can be cosidered a vandal, not a serious thinker. The fact that he defaces every thread he can is a threat to Mudcat, as well as to honorable liberals who must carry him and his ilk around like the sailor carried the albatros.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:01 PM

Or the dog the flea.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:09 PM

Proud to be a thorn in yer side there, Guest 11:53. I'm even more proud to be an electoral threat to the status quo, though.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:22 PM

John Hardly-The first parts of the definitions were correct. Liberals believe in change, usually because they see problems that need to be corrected. Conservatives believe in much less change, because they tend to focus on what's already good and shouldn't be risked. The wealthy tend to be conservatives, and the poor liberals, because of what they stand to gain by either position. Self-interest is present on both sides of the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:39 PM

LH:

You raise an interesting point. I have usually observed that fredom of speech is more important to liberals, because they often have things to say which are less comfortable. Freedom of religion is certainly more of a liberal trait, as they have less interest in establishmentarian protocols. Freedom to bear arms, usually, in my experience, is more frequently a conservative cause.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:54 PM

As the conservative guest, may I point out, Forum Lurker, that your definition has nothing to do with the real world. It is a bunch of vague generalities and assumptions based in the past. The top money horders are people like Michael Eisner, Ted Turner and David Geffen, who have clean fingernails. I respect the old school industrialists who built the country. I have many friends who live in "manufactured housing" and they all vote for Republicans. If you talk issues, we can actually get somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:12 PM

Ah, thanks for the good belly laugh there Guest 12:54. "Manufactured housing"? What's that, a new code for trailer trash, in hopes no one will notice the sneer?

Let's hear it for Republican residents of "manufactured housing"!

We are talking issues there, Guest 12:54. As opposed to what you are talking, which is talking trash against anyone with a political opinion that disagrees with the Bush party line.

Not all Republicans are Bushites, created, or miscreated equal Guest 12:54, as you so ably prove with your rants against liberals and progressives here, where liberals and progressives are in the majority. That is, below the BS line they are. Above the BS line is another story altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:20 PM

Information where to find the article, a critique ("the left, the right, and the rigid") and a response to the critique

The main information missing in the short article Amos has linked to are the effect sizes. In a meta-analysis using many data even very small effects can be found to be statistically significant.

Are the differences so big that looking at a person you can with some certainty say this person will become conservative later or are they so small that they can only be detected in large samples?

If a certain trait, can be seen in, say, 412 of 1000 conservatives, but only in 387 of 1000 liberals, you'll find the difference significant when looking at 10000s of them. Statistically significant, but it is significant in the everyday use of the word?

Perhaps yes, but I haven't read the original article yet so I don't know.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:49 PM

From the conervative guest to the other one, you are certainly not a thorn in my side. Everytime you blat out a new bunch of gas, the liberals cringe and the Republican voter registration increases. Thanks, you are doing more for my side than I can believe.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:15 PM

The quote in the second post from Nicole gets right to the root:
"You don't think a janitor with no money should get the same healthcare as someone like Bill Gates!"

Her friend knows that "obviously" the janitor should not get the same healthcare and I know that "obviously" the janitor should, and I don't know how either of us could convince the other.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:23 PM

"Thanks, you are doing more for my side than I can believe."

Seriously, when right wing nuts come into what is essentially a liberal and progressive forum (below the BS line, as I said earlier), and begin expectorating invective at those very liberals and progressives they so obviously revile and hold in contempt, I automatically dismiss anything they say. I also see that tactic as one of the most disturbing aspects of the Reagan/Limbaugh revolution. A complete inability to tolerate the existence of progressives and liberals.

I'm not talking about live and let live here. I'm talking about the right wing political ideologues, of which the Limbaughs and O'Reillys, et al are representative, who have whipped the marginally sane and reactionary types into such a frenzy, that they can't even be in the same room with someone who doesn't share their fears, and their poisonous, hateful view of contemporary modern life.

Such people will never be able to work out problems and find solutions to the challenges that face all of us. They just aren't intellectually capable of it. Hence, the calling of the Capitol police on the Democrats by the Republican chair of the House Commerce Committee the other day. Or the attempts to round up the Texas Democrats using the same legislative tactic (blocking quorom) to block the Republicans' attempts to redistrict to their own benefit. Or the California recall of Gray Davis.

Sure, we can all argue about the agendas of both sides. But the tactics currently being used by the right wing nut ideologues have become very creepy, and downright threatening to our democracy. You know we're screwed when the most conservative of the Republican ideologues like Trent Lott are saying things like "Republicans can be wrong too".

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Beccy
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:38 PM

First, let me just get my anal-retentive thing out of the way. It should be, "Of What are Young Conservatives Made?"

Okay... In answer to your question:

Young conservatives are made of 2 parts good food, 1 part their father, and 1 part me. This disproves Bobert- as a conservative, I create a lot. Mostly food, kids and music, but hey! who's keeping track?

But seriously... Do you really think that this study was an unbiased and accurate, scientific study? It's all subjective. As a conservative, I obviously favour my point of view. As a liberal, you will obviously favour your point of view. There are some on my side of the ideological aisle who will think that anyone who does not keep their council is a dunderhead. There are some on the liberal side of the aisle who will think that anyone who does not keep their council is a heartless pig.
Just consider the source!

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:47 PM

A fundamental attitude of American conservatives, young or otherwise--and the current policies of the Bush administration--are shaped to a great degree by Herbert Spencer's interpretation of the work of Charles Darwin.

Blicky

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 03:12 PM

From conservative guest to Don Firth: Two points. Please talk about issues and please distance yourself from the nuts who appear to be the dominant force on your side. Your last post is flatulance. Also, you are back in bed with "guest" the vandal who has desecrated several threads recently. You liberals never have the guts to distance yourselves from your fringe elements, at least not until it serves you well to take them back in. Hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 03:42 PM

Examples of Guest 3:12's style:

"Your last post is flatulance."

"Everytime you blat out a new bunch of gas..."

"You cretins..."

"You hateful bunch of creeps..."

"If you talk issues, we can actually get somewhere..."

I rather doubt the veracity of that last one.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 03:46 PM

I am somewhat puzzled by the comments above, that conservatives don't want to change anything. From my point of view, the only changes in the American political situation in the past thirty years have been instituted by conservatives. The liberals at this point could fairly be called reactionaries, and judging from their language above, they know it.

The very fact that we are discussing "young concervatives" nails the point, as there seems no concern by anyone about "young liberals". When you have ideas and principles which are supposed to be espoused by older persons, being grasped and strengthened with youthful vigor, you are indeed creating change.

I invite for your comparison, the image of the "Old Liberal", who is now envisioned and personified as Teddy Kennedy, a lion in winter, raging against the dying of the light. And now Mr. Dean, to whom the politicos of Washington view as marching his party off the cliffs.

I do hope Mr. Dean gets the nomination, as I plan to do what little I can to ensure the rocks below are waiting in good order, for his entourage, and to set safety nets to the right of the cliff, to catch the last minute conversions.

And consider that the happiest people in the US right now are the moderate Republicans, not the hard right or hard left. Which is to say, the sacred center is to the right of where it was twenty, thirty or forty years ago.

The ones fighting change right now are the liberals. True, Clinton gave us fits, but we got welfare reform and his name to drag out to steady the skittish when the tocsins sound...

And do remember that it is never too late to change...

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller, no cookie
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:22 PM

Guest, whichever. I didn't intend to bring up any standard Hitler thing, whatever that is, or to randomly insult anyone. But I happened to've been reading recently about Robert A. Dahl, professor emeritus of political science at Yale, and his recent book about the constitution. Things struck me like "Article I, Section 9 forbade Congress to forbid the slave trade "the Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States shall think proper to admit".
And in 1808 Article IV Section 2 made the citizens of free states complicit by requiring them to return a runaway "Person held to service or Labour in one State" to "the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due"--despite that the slave had escaped to a free state.
   Also, under Article I Section 2 a state's allotment of seats in the House counted not only "free persons" but also "three fifths of all other Persons".

There's an interesting review in a recent New Yorker, and it's on a reasonable level of discourse, I think. But I like the Mudcat too, and didn't mean to mire it in muck.

   But there may be a tendency among liberals to quickly forget their nuttier past proposals, and a tendency among conservatives to quickly forget how they've resisted and blocked the better ones. I don't mind generalizations. I don't mean them or too often take them personally. That makes sense, doesn't it? They're generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:35 PM

GUEST 3:12, it looks like my post and link nailed you in a pretty sensitive spot.

Don Firth

It's truly amazing to realize that someone who shows the intellectual acuity of GUEST 3:12 was created by a sperm with a sense of direction!!

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:54 PM

Don Firth:

You are back in bed with the same guest you have been doing battle with for several days. The guest who has denegrated the death of Bob hope. Have fun. At least what you are doing is now protected activity, according to a recent Supreme Court ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 06:35 PM

Fred Miller:

Sorry for the tone of my post. Your statements elsewhere are not only reasonable but often humorous. But remember a couple of facts. This topic was chosen to give the same bigoted liberal activists another chance to bash conservatives. We are outnumbered in this forum, but that does not mean that they (not you) can blather away without being challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 06:47 PM

GUEST, this is a little game I call "troll the troll." It consists of taking a moment or two out of my busy and productive schedule from time to time to check this thread and fire a little barb, thereby getting you to spend all your time trying to think up and write a response. By this means I keep you occupied with knee-jerks. If we can keep you busy with this, you won't be out bothering folks where it might really matter.

I regard it as a public service.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 06:55 PM

Not to add to the fire here, but since the U.S.A. Partiot Act was passed, membership in the ACLU has shot through the ceiling. The new membership is mostly under 35. I also recall when Regan was elected persident, memberships in organizations such as Green Peace, Planned Parenthood and the like also went sky high.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 07:20 PM

Don Firth:

Almost 70% of Dems and independant voters expect President Bush to win next year. All your hard work here is wasted. No one has been converted.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 08:08 PM

It seems that I've really got up your nose.

I wouldn't pay any more attention to that poll than I would to a poll that said Bush is expected to be defeated by 70%. Polls at this point don't mean a thing. The election is fourteen months away and a lot can happen between now and then. You and conservatives like you would really like me and people like me to just give up, wouldn't you? It would sure make your little world feel a lot more secure. But it's not going to happen, so get used to it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 08:32 PM

"The guest who has denegrated the death of Bob hope."

I suppose that the was the final straw to send you round the bend, eh Guest PDQ?

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 08:40 PM

Yeah, GUEST, and that sentiment is held by me, a Greenie and most of my Green friends. We will do a much better brokering our votes next time around and with yer guy, as of tonight, a confessed liar leading the country, ahhh, nowhere, this ain't about labels. Its about a screwed up and clueless up administartaion.

Your tax cut can't stimulate the economy or create jobs. Ain't no way in Hell. the milllions and millions of folks who ahve lost their jobs under your guy ain't going to vote, ahhh, for your guy... And you can take that to the bank.

Polls don't mean a danged thing. Like I've said in the past, a clever pollster could get Hitler a 70% approval rate in Isreal. It's all in how one askes the questions...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Leo Condie
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 08:52 PM

anyone noticed how the guests just argue among themselves? almost like...A BUNCHA LEFTIES?!

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:13 PM

It's amazing how much spleen this subject raises whenever it is brought up... :-)

Regarding change: Liberals and conservatives are both dead against it when it's a change they don't agree with. They're both for it when it's a change they do agree with. So take your pick... They both strenuously resist change when it is suggested by their philosophical opponents in any given issue of life.

One thing I think you can say in a very general sense is that conservatives tend to be more traditional-minded and look more to the past. This is as true of a conservative communist as it is true of a conservative republican...they both rely strongly on the traditional values that they grew up with and have become accustomed to. Likewise a conservatively religious person wants to preserve the religious habits and teachings of the past, while a liberal one will be more inclined to reform them or reject them, and to study other religions as well.

Liberals tend to be more rebellious toward the status quo, generally speaking (but not always...there are certain popular "liberal" positions taken in society which become a damned status quo all on their own...so then if you are really free-minded you might be a liberal who rebells against THAT status quo. I have done this a number of times, when I saw people behaving like sheep around me just cos they thought it was the "liberal" and cool thing to do.) That makes me a radical, I guess, instead of a liberal.

I am generally in favour of people having a great deal of freedom...as long as they don't abuse IT and don't abuse OTHERS. If they do, then that is where their freedom stops as far as I'm concerned. If they want to abuse merely themselves...well, that's their own private business, and I would not presume to pass a law that attempts to stop them from abusing themselves. It won't work anyway!

That's why I'm in favour of prosecuting illegal drug sellers, but not illegal drug users...unless they hurt other people while under the influence. Then I'd prosecute them for hurting people, not for taking the drug, which is their own business to do if they wish to. If they don't hurt anyone else then I'd leave them alone. Having personally witnessed thousands of people in this life who casually used illegal drugs now and then and never hurt a fly because of it...that's how I'd handle it. It's the only sensible way to go.

Does this make me liberal...or conservative? Phooey. It doesn't make me either. I'm a unique human being, not a cardboard figure, and so is everyone else.

I wouldn't preach that no one should own a gun because some people misuse guns. Neither would I preach that everyone has the right to own a 50 caliber machine gun and a bazooka and a rocket launcher in the name of personal freedom. I'm somewhere in what I hope is the reasonable middle when it comes to such things. I am suspicious of people who are absolutists and who insist on everyone else being exactly like they are...or else! Such people are very dangerous, regardless of whether they think of themselves as liberal or conservative.

And they've got a lot of nerve too.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:27 PM

Machine guns were banned in 1934 at the request of J. Edgar Hoover. Liberalism as now practiced has not changed since 1932. Nice post, Hawklette. You covered some issues which is all most people (on either side) ask.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:40 PM

Yeah, tommy guns were a hot item in the early 30's. It's pretty bizarre reading about the gangland shootouts in those days. I'm not surprised Hoover pressed for such legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 02:38 AM

"Conservatives resist change"? Then who is it that is changing this country and its laws and its objectives- from privacy to education to child care to poverty issues to a ton of other stuff, like pre-emptive war to a GO on assassinations to environmental degradation to the lost civil rights of the citizens of the United States? The way I see it is the liberals that are saying: Whoa... What in the world are you thinking??!!

The way I see it is that not only is it the conservatives who are doing the dismantling of our rights and our very prospects, but a great many people appear to have signed on. A $100 tax break for a guy making 20,000 a year while half a million and more goes to the BIG corporations- and the little guy is ecstatic about it? Come on!   I swear we have lost our senses.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 04:23 AM

This is very much a US thing, so I will stay well away. I have read through the posts with interest.

One question for Walking Eagle, regarding his post - 30 Jul 03 - 06:55 PM, where he comments:

"...since the U.S.A. Partiot Act was passed, membership in the ACLU has shot through the ceiling. The new membership is mostly under 35. I also recall when Regan was elected persident, memberships in organizations such as Green Peace, Planned Parenthood and the like also went sky high." - To what effect?

IMO best post & comment come from two very different sources:

Best Post - L.H. 30 Jul 03 - 11:50 AM

Best comment - Claymore 30 Jul 03 - 03:46 PM;
".. the sacred centre is to the right of where it was twenty, thirty or forty years ago."

If you doubt that ask any "Old labour" supporter in the UK. Whoever holds the centre in terms of the spectrum of politics normally wins for UK elections, the trick is judging where the centre is as that is defined by the attitudes and expectations of the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Sam L
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 09:54 AM

Yes. A tax break always sounds good, but it isn't working. And after it clearly didn't work the first time, it still seems to sound good to people. Conservatives may be outnumbered on the mudcat, but liberals are living in an episode of the twilight zone.

I don't know who's ahead in polls, just that I'll be pretty disappointed in us all if whoever is elected keeps this course.

   And the kinds of generalizations that bother me most, Kim C, are ones about liberals wanting government to solve their problems. The government does so much more for wealthy interests than for any ordinary citizens that it's a grossly baseless thing to say. The government IS wealthy people. They're pretty good at solving THEIR problems. From voting themselves raises (or tax cuts) to business incentives, to abuses of National Flood Insurance for sea-side hotel developments, to nuclear power, to s&l bailouts, goverment contracts, to bombing striking miners in W. Virginia--it's grotesque to point at the very little good that government does and blame that. There's no sense of proportion in it, the money doesn't add up. If government is not good at helping anyone it's probably lack of experience.

   We all rely on the government for certain things, but it takes big law enforcement to go after big and entrenched abuses of the law. For example, when Bush Sr. said he preferred to trust the American people rather than go after big tax abuses, it was perfectly cynical. He had no plan to disband the IRS and start trusting anyone. It sounded nice, but it only meant he did not intend to go after major tax abuse.

I think the current conservative agenda makes a mockery of the basic idea that those who have been advantaged give something back through public service. Maybe I and others bait the outnumbered conservatives here, but geez, I just don't understand the point of view. It really does strike me as insistently simple-minded, advancing key positions against all evidence. It really does seem sort of nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 10:06 AM

That's right...the trick is judging where the centre is. The Liberal Party has done very well at that in Canada, for example. Barry Goldwater completely misjudged it in '64 and lost by a landslide. So what an astute politician does is to determine where the centre is (as defined by the attitudes and expectations of the public, as teribus has said)...and then he pretends that that is where he is! :-) If the public buys his pretense, he wins the election. Then he does what he was going to do anyway, which is usually to pay off his rich friends who helped him mislead and manipulate the public. The public, of course, are themselves somewhat to blame for allowing themselves to be so misled. And so it goes...

Very occasionally one gets an honest politician. Such a person usually has little hope of being elected, but I'm not saying it's completely impossible. It depends on the situation and the need for change. For instance, I'd say Churchill was pretty honest with the British public in the late 30's and early 40's. He knew what had to be done and he said it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 01:17 PM

Ebbie-The people who are changing things in the U.S. are not conservatives. They are reactionaries. Most of the Republican leadership, and a frightening number of voters, are likewise reactionaries, who do not wish merely to stop change but turn it back. They want Cold-War era defense policy, except with no USSR to get in the way. They want HUAC-style political censorship, and a return to "family values" based on 17th-century Puritan idealism. A true conservative should be just as appalled by this as any liberal.

Since personal stands on issues are being requested, I believe that:

The First Amendment includes the right to absolutely any kind of speech or expression, forbiddable only when real and foreseable harm is caused thereby (i.e., saying that the war is wrong is legitimate, revealing classified DOD strategy on primetime is not), and guarantess no governmental involvement with any sort of religion or religious establishment.

I don't trust anyone else in the world to own a gun, so I would prefer absolute gun control, but hell if I'm going to be the only one not packing.

The United States has no right to intervene in the affairs of other countries, unless they explicity ask for our involvement or pose a direct, imminent, and PROVABLE threat to our well-being or that of our allies.

A right to privacy exists which under no conditions can be violated without probable cause, and the right to a fair, speedy, and public trial cannot be abridged.

The government has an obligation to its citizens to ensure that all necessities, including food, shelter, health care, and education, are accessible to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 01:29 PM

Actually Forum Lurker, what you have described is a little something called the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, the current resident and the US attorney general believe the Bill of Rights is an impediment to their war on terrorism.

Therein lies the rub.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 02:06 PM

"...guest who has denegrated the death of Bob Hope" is a statement I made earlier. Please see Obit: Bob Hope 31JUL 03 8:20 post for a more articulate statement and better spelling.

Forum Lurker:

You clearly state positions you are for, which is a huge step toward an good discussion. 1) There are over 200 million guns in the U.S. now and banning them is simply not possible. 2) Free speech is conditional (unfortunately) depending on who is listening. See what happens to non-liberals in Mudcat. 3) Constitutional protection extends to U.S. citizens and some legal residents. It does not extend to illegal aliens, foreign terrorists or war combatants.

I will leave others to fight this out. I, after all, live in "manufactured housing" (which is quite ecologically friendly, truth be known).

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 02:17 PM

Surely the only people who don't live in "manufactured housing" are cave-dwellers? And not even most cave-dwellers for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 02:31 PM

There's Hopi for some of you yet!

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Frankham
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 02:53 PM

I think that conservatives come in different stripes. David Gergen was one of my favorite conservatives and he was active in the Clinton Adminstration. He was articulate and open-minded.

Then some liberals are close-minded and dogmatic.

I tend toward socialist views but know that within that circle are some of the most disagreeing people in the world as to what that is.

As to young conservatives, I think it depends upon how well they are able to think for themselves without parroting the party line.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 04:50 PM

Dear Frank Hamilton:

Here is the World Socialist Web Site, at least one article. I agree with their point about investing in terrorist futures. Real strange idea.               
                   http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jul2003/fut-j31.shtml

Above article aside, what these people want is to destroy America. What Woody Guthrie said in 1939 and what these guys say now have little in common. We must all agree to fix things within this country first, and help the rest of the 6.2 billion people second.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 05:08 PM

Well, I saw a guy sleeping on the street today. He's not living in manufactured housing. Not for the moment anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Kim C
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 06:54 PM

Aw Fred, I know that not all liberals think the government ought to take care of them. I think most people WANT to take care of themselves on their own steam. Sometimes there's others what needs a little push, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

And you're right about government and industry - anytime some big industry gets in trouble - the airlines being a good example - they want The Government to bail them out. I don't know enough about economics to say whether or not it is a good idea. Maybe sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.

But there are always going to be people who take advantage of public programs.

I agree with Little Hawk that most people are probably conservative about some things and liberal about others. If I had to make a generalization about my own self, I'd say that I am politically conservative and socially liberal. I don't completely agree with either ideology. But I think we need both.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 07:04 PM

"But there are always going to be people who take advantage of public programs."

Like the auto industry, the airline industry, the energy industries, the banking industry...

I'm going to make a wild guess, that no welfare slut has ever ripped off the government as much as Neil Bush did in the savings and loan debacle during the Reagan/Bush I years. Or Kenneth Lay, or...

Why even if you added up all the fraud ever committed by welfare sluts and cheats, I'll be the total doesn't even come close to the billions the captains of industry and government have stolen from the public.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Sam L
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 09:20 AM

Well yes Kim C, I know you know that not all liberals want government to take care of them, and not even all liberals want the government to take care of other people, besides themselves.

I'm not particularly in favor of especially liberal government programs without knowing what they are. But I'm very much in favor of different cultural attitudes. I heard a radio show about hunger once, and not a single caller could address the issue of hunger in the U.S. Each and every one was an angry call about people in the checkout lines with food stamps, having kids they shouldn't have, buying bad food, blah blah blah. It was all anger over our tax pennies.

It's easy to kick people who are down--that would've been a better theme for the radio show. Are we really like this? It's one thing for desperate people to steal, another when we steal what we don't even need, just to get ahead of each other.

I've watched first hand while wealthy people spend tens of thousands on luxury stuff they don't even understand the good of, and will have an empty box shipped to their summer home out of state, to avoid paying the state sales tax. One of the wealthiest local families--a notoriously liberal family too--they simply sent in a check without the tax, as if it were understood to be a discount. Wealthy Citizen Discount. I don't hate these people or envy them, I feel sorry for them. They don't think they're doing anything but being smart, and I suppose, in it's way, it is a sort of rat/cheese intelligence. It's like the person who passes you on the road, then slows down--they feel like they're getting ahead. These things have consequences for communities and families.

   They opened a new waterpark here, and swept the homeless away from it, cops taking their TB cards, harrassing them. Do I want them there when I go with my kids? no. But they can't stay in a shelter without the TB card. And if they buy anything, they have to pay the tax.

   I don't worry about the fumes that escape when I fill my gas tank, or whether I could give another little squeeze before the counter turns a cent, and I don't worry about abuse of government assistance to the poor. I bet the government simply loses as much money under couch cushions. I worry about why we're so messed-up, sick, lost, and impressionable.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 10:59 AM

Cheer up, Fred! You liberals all seem to be near clinical depression. Even worse, you folks think we are heartless if we are not depressed. There is a limit to what you can do for people. This is one of the few countries where "poor" is a temporary condition. The people who went to California in the Dust Bowl Days, the people Steinbeck wrote about and Woody Guthrie sang about, became the farm owners, store owners, doctors, and even famous entertainers like Merl Haggard.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 12:48 PM

Guest of 2:06 PM- The rights enshrined in the constitution are not in any way, shape, or form limited to the citizenry. The Fourth amendment says "the right of the people to be secure in their persons," the Fifth says "No person shall be held," the Sixth "In all criminal prosecutions the accussed shall enjoy." None of these protections makes any distinction as to whether the person in question is an American citizen. These protections apply to any person under U.S. law, making no exceptions. Further, "enemy combatants" are protected by the Geneva Accords regarding POW treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Sam L
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:58 PM

Not heartless if not depressed, but senseless of causes and effects. Not that anyone should be clinically depressed, but, as there seem to be indications, that some people seem to be clinically Other Conditions. Apologies all around, and please forgive liberal Mudcatter's for trampling the right to free speech by merely disagreeing. But damned if the "rush to cognitive closure" doesn't ring true to me.

   Rather than address sense, let's change the subject to "mood". Okay.

I'm not depressed--I doubt I looked very depressed playing hide-and-seek at the waterpark I mentioned. I'm just appalled, and embarrassed for people who don't have sense to be ashamed of themselves, don't seem to care what utter bullshit they go around saying. I don't feel like a depressed personality around my conservative buddies, but like a sunny boy-scout among rather bitchy cynics. What's in it fer meeee? they're always whining about every issue, like Templeton in Charlotte's Webb.

   My point was simply that it's a ridiculous generalization that the poor abuse the systems of goverment, when they are not much different from the wealthy in that regard except in how much it actually costs us. It seems so mean spirited and nasty to always pick on the easy pickings, like everybody ganging up to bully the weakest kid, it's just so ugly, and cowardly.

I don't know if you're the same guest who was kind about some of my posts, and I'm sure I could honestly reciprocate about many of yours, but then, I don't know who you are. And that takes a lot of the fun out of this.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:56 PM

I am the same guest, but I feel nothing I say here will efficacious, so I bow out now. Hey, that's a big word for guy who lives in "manufactured housing".

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 01:24 PM

Well, you could try being focused and articulate. That usually works.

Anyway, I suspect that the liberal-conservative division is an artificial one. I think there are natural tendencies which separate people, one of which being how they react to different rates of change. Another is the degree of help they generate for others and whether it is effective help or just a dramatization of sympathetic regret. They are two very different things, aren't they? But making militant camps out of it is probably a dumb if well established practice.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 08:12 PM

L.H.: Goldwater couldn't overcome that TV add depicting him as a atomic bomb trigger happy conservative Lyndon Johnson's people ran right before the election. Remember that one? Goldwater was going to use an atomic bomb to blow up that cute little kid picking daisies in the meadow. Barry Goldwater set the stage for Ronnie's victor later on though.

When you want to go fishing, give me a holler. I ain't going fishing in Cuba though, so you better find some creek nearby. Maybe we could go up Bobert's way, fish a little, and convert old Bobert into a reasonable thinking individual. What say? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 10:08 PM

"when the creeks they all run dry, and the little fishies fly..."

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:01 AM

Amos, I understand your frustration, and there is a lot of truth in what you say, but the reality is that unless people of like orientations form groups to vote as a block, the nation of where-ever they live will fall into chaos. The politics of the matter serve to take war's stead, and allow each group to justify decisions made against their interests, in the belief that "Next time it will go our way". Thus, in the nations, where the practice is well-established, it is not so dumb after all. And as to the level of militancy, those groups that can adapt in a pragmatic fashion, usually get the most decisions in their favor.

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:51 AM

Claymore:

Thanks. Pragmatism is an awful two-edged sword. Appreciate your insights!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are Young Conservatives Made Of?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:16 AM

Fear, the need to control and the total lack of what hard times means when the capitalist system fails as it did in 1929.