BS: Why should we die?

Subject: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,A Regular 'Catter
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:42 AM

With the passing of Rick Fielding, the question arose in my mind: Why should we die? What purpose does it serve?

The Twins, according to the Navaho, encountered Death and Bad Times as their last two Monsters. Bad Times was spared because Bad Times explained that without Bad Times, Good Times would not be appreciated. And Death was spared so that there would be room for new life.

Christianity explains it as a punishment for the first sin. Other religions explain it in other ways.

I think that it's just another part of Life.

But WHY?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:48 AM

Biologically it makes sense - oranisms that have reproduced or that are beyond the age of reproduction die to make room for offspring/further generations. It also recycles materials.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:56 AM

Christians don't see it as punishment. For a Christian, death is a reward... an ascent into glory and eternal joy. My Mother is 97 and talks alot about death. It is not frightening to her. When it is her time to go, she will rejoice in being reunited with her parents and bgrothers and sisters and see Christ. This may sound like hogwash to you, but you're talking about what Christians believe.

I've sung with my group at "home Goings" in black churches where people have gotten up and danced in the aisles to our music. If you believe that you are going to live in God's loving arms for eternity, where's the punishment?

This is not what you believe, but it's what 95% of the Christians I know believe. Death is the ultimate retirement plan.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Ben Dover
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:56 AM

" All that most people leave is a full latrine" - Leonardo Da Vinci.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM

There's a story, often called "Death in a Nut", about this. Scottish story-teller Duncan Williamson tells it, and he gave it to English storyteller Taffy Thomas, and he passed it on to Tim Laycock who made a song out of it.

Taffy Thomas describes it as "the ultimate bereavement tale" - and there's more about it on this website of his (and about a tape containing it)/

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:08 AM

Hmmm...Would you rather choose to be a plastic bag that sticks around for the next thousand+ years?

If one thinks in terms of cycles, death is just another part of the process. What comes after, I'll leave up to those who like to conjecture on these things, but I'd be fine to die, disintegrate and know that my body was back in the element chain somewhere, and my spirit back in the energy chain somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:11 AM

The purpose of death is to renew life that has become over-embroiled and mangled up with physical efforts. Rick is perhaps feeling more expansive and light -- in the deepest sense -- than he has for fifty odd years, for example. I surely hope so.

Strange as the passage seems to those outside it, I have always felt it was a time to put down a heavy load, get free, review one's journey, and to re-generate all that one chooses to be from scratch.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:32 AM

From the standpoint of evolution, a human being is an ovum's and a sperm's device for making more sperm and ova. When that's been done, there's no more need for the human being, so he/she can be left to run down like an unwound watch. From the point of view of a concious human being, with an awareness of self and of mortality, this seems harsh. But we're prejudiced.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:33 AM

Prejudiced with the terrible opinions of authorship!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

" Why should we die? What purpose does it serve?"

Phrased that way, they are unanswerable questions. There is no 'should'' or 'purpose'...All things, animate & inanimate change and wear and become something else. It only troubles us because, as far as we know, we are the only entities able to reflect on the process.

For some, it is a relief and a release....for others an interruption and a nuisance. For those who come after us, it is a lesson to do as much as you can while you're here. Rick certainly came as close as anyone I know to doing something of value every day.....maybe I'd better go and try to emulate him....

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM

We die for the same reason that we buy new clothes now and then. An old body wears out, and then you need to build a new one. :-) (reincarnation, folks!)

We also die because a given life is like a role in a great play. When your part in the play ends, you die. When what you wanted (or needed) to experience in the play is done with, you leave the theater. It's that simple. Those who are still in the play will probably miss you a lot if they knew you well.

Then you take a little rest, reflect on how great that play was. Then after a bit you audition for another part, and start a whole new play...new face, new name, new role, new drama.

I love it. But getting old can be a hassle, that's for sure.

I've got no worries about Rick. I think he's as alive as he ever was, he's just not here anymore. I look forward to seeing him again one of these days...somewhere.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:48 AM

Yeah ... great question, yet no definitive answer. Personally, I am a Christian, yet with strong influences from the pagan past of my people. I have strong ties with my Wiccan friends, as I see The Greatest One in every ounce of creation. I don't, for example, see my "religion" as the be all, and end all, where it comes to the answers with regard to living and dying. I believe, as I have been taught, that what most people call "conscience" is really the voices of those that have gone on, speaking to us in a very real way. So when someone asks the question posed by this thread, I guess I hope and pray fervently that in their quest, they will see that death isn't an end. Rather, it is the peak of life. It is the final climactic moment as we move from this to the next experience. Some have referred to it as the light going out. But I heard a description somewhere that made much more sense to me. Someone described it as "the candle being blown out, at the dawn of the new day".

Why should we die, when viewed in that context, becomes "Why shouldn't we die?". To me it doesn't matter what ones spiritual practices are. And what is inevitable, to me, must not be seen as a bad thing, because if that is where we are at, then what hope is there? But if we view it as the climax of life, then we approach the world with hope, and committment to making this world a better place.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:03 AM

A better question would be "Why should we live?" I firmly believe that oneness with the timeless ground-of-all-being (notice the subtle way in which he avoids use of the loaded word "God") is our true state. It was our state before we were born. It will be our state again after we die. It's this flesh-and-blood human existence with its dualities and conflicts that's the kicker. I have to force myself to believe that we are here for a reason that has something to do with the evolution of the Universe, otherwise it makes no sense. I keep on living because I don't want to get home and have someone say, "You took an unauthorized shortcut! That's a five-point penalty! You'll have to go back as a hedgehog!"

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:03 AM

Death is well understood,it's life that isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM

I'd have said the original poster was right in Christian terms Jerry. We were not made to die at first but all became doomed to die because of sin. The reward you talk about comes from our salvation through Christ. If something hadn't happened to make us die, wouldn't Christ's death to pay the price of sin and then ressurection become meaningless?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:13 AM

"the candle being blown out, at the dawn of the new day".   Thanks, Big Mick. I love it.

I've often used the analogy of the infant's birth- the babe has been comfortable all its life with every need met. It resists mightily being ejected from that known life. We on the other end of the channel know we have more to offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:14 AM

Without death there is no evolution, which is selection by differential death.
Without evolution there would be no us to ask the question.
I suppose that's not very comforting to some, but which would you rather have the truth or fairy stories?
TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:14 AM

Jon:

Frankly, I don't see what Christ has to do with any of it. If there is meaning there, it is because you placed it there. It is disingenouous to try to frame it as though it were a global truism. I know this sounds intolerant; in fact, I have no objection to your beliefs, merely to your effort to manipulate others with them.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:17 AM

Amos, I'm not saying he does. I am questioning Jerry's response to the original reply. I'm in no way trying to suggest the Christian answer the the right one.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM

Regular Catter, I'm thinking that a question asked in pain can only really be answered in healing. Your search for meaning can be informed by the grief process, but although asking for answers now is part of that process, it's unlikely that any of the answers will actually ring true while so much hurts. At best we can just indicate, by answering, that we share your sense of something terribly not right in the universe.

Someone I respected very much once said, "It doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense." I always hated hearing that, but then again, I always came around to agreeing with it once I had a little distance and perspective restored.

So my answer to you would be this-- I'm so sorry you're hurting, and I hope you have someone close to hang onto and a safe place to cry, rage, and wonder your way through these double-edged things we human beans have called "feelings"-- that part of us that is so much of what makes us the delightful, exasperating, unique critters we are.

Me? I'm off to LIVE this day with some sense of how precious each day is, renewed again by being caught by grief myself.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:30 AM

Amos ... what was that about, old buddy? It appeared to me that Jon was just expressing the Christian point of view. I didn't see any attempt to proselytize there? What did I miss?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:32 AM

Oh and for the record Amos, my beliefs are not Christian and haven't been for a couple of years. I had a life pre 1987 when I turned to Christ and have had a life of hell since then. I have gone from being well employed with some hope to becoming an alcoholic wreck. Any faith I had or thought I had is long gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:34 AM

Jon,

Do you ever get to the chat room?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:35 AM

Well, Bill, maybe going back as a hedgehog would be interesting, eh? The wasting of time certainly isn't an issue, since it appears to be in infinite supply, and you could figure out how to get fed and stay warm. I dunno if you could figure out how to make love, though -- I guess even hedgehogs learn, but it must make for a painful adolsecence, wouldn't you think? :>) And it would give you a perspective for comparison, I guess.

What the hell...but on the other hand, there are perhaps more fulfilling missions to accomplish in the same timeframe. I'll understand if you decline the option. But I seriously doubt it is the kind of thing that gets imposed by some Cosmic Referee blowing his Sky-Whistle.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:36 AM

Jon:

My apologies for misunderstanding your post.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:48 AM

No problems Amos. Perhaps it was my use of "we" that caused it.

Not really Brucie. Once in a while I do look into the folkinfo room when MC is down but that's really mostly to check that the service is running. I'm not much of a chatter these days. Sometimes, again rarely now, I can be found on Paltalk under the name of squiggle-, in a live music room like the MC one Open Mike runs if there.

To everyone else, sorry to drift that far off the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:59 AM

I like to think of death as being like simply turning in a body which doesn't work any longer. It is hard to see it in those terms when you have just lost a close relative or a good friend. To me it makes sense though in facing my own mortality and in facing life without the company of those whom I care about.
I don't like to tell anyone they are wrong in their religious beliefs. I see religions and their imagery as simply being attempts to represent a larger universe in terms of something a mortal can picture. I liked Bick Mick's comment. It makes a lot of sense to me. For sure, we are all going to miss Rick around here. There's no getting away from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM

I tend to agree with Big Mick. And I like the idea of coming back as part of everything else -- from worms to stars.

Reincarnation, by Wallace McRae

What is reincarnation? A cowboy asked his friend.
It starts, his old pal told him, when your life comes to an end.
They wash your neck and comb your hair and clean your fingernails,
And put you in a padded box away from life's travails.

The box and you goes in a hole that's been dug in the ground.
Reincarnation starts in when you're planted neath that mound.
Them clods melt down, just like the box, and you who is inside.
And that's when you begin your transformation ride.

And in a while the grass will grow upon your rendered mound,
Until some day, upon that spot, a lonely flower is found.
And then a horse may wander by and graze upon that flower
That once was you, and now has become your vegetated bower.

Now, the flower that the horse done eat, along with his other feed,
Makes bone and fat and muscle essential to the steed.
But there's a part that he can't use and so it passes through.
And there it lies upon the ground, this thing that once was you.

And if perchance, I should pass by and see this on the ground,
I'll stop awhile and ponder at this object that I've found.
I'll think about Reincarnation and life and death and such,
And come away concludin', why, you ain't changed all that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:23 PM

Rapaire:

ROTFLMAO!!

I hope RIck notices you posted that!!! LOL!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:39 PM

My friend Amos: Guest made a statement about what Christians believe. I, being a Christian disagreed with his statement. If you are as tolerant as you claim to be, why do you consider a statement of someone's belief (especially if they are Christian)to be "an effort to manipulate others?" I don't consider your statements about spiritual matters to be "an effort to manipulate others."

So, what gives, buddy?

Just wondering..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,A Regular 'Catter
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:17 PM

Jerry and others: when I wrote the original post, I had in mind the words in Genesis 3:16-19 (Rev. Standard Version):

"To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.""

I did not mean anything more than that, and certainly did not want to touch upon the New Testament, which to my mind is another gig entirely.

Hope this clears it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:22 PM

Jerry:

See my post of 22 Mar 04 11:36 AM.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:31 PM

Regular, I can't imagine Christainity (your 1st post) without considering the New Testament!

Jon (begining to wonder if we have been "Janeted" and out for now)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:41 PM

Guest(A regular Catter): Of course you are right theologically. I should have acknowledged that. When it comes to day to day living, other promises weigh far more heavily. And, as Jon points out, you can hardly make statements about what Christians believe, ignoring the New Testament.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:55 PM

Life and death are about learning. You live to learn. You die to learn. You are reborn to learn, and so the cycle continues.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 03:26 PM

When young I thought of it as natures way of getting my relatives off my back.

These days I see it as Kurt Vonnegut saw it: "Whenever I start to feel the least bit self-important, I think of all the dirt that never did get a chance to sit up and look around."

Being HERE makes me a very lucky guy.

Remember: Descarte goes into a bar. The bartender asks him, "Would you like a beer???" He snswers,

"I think not."

...and he disapears

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:09 PM

Dying is a necessary consequence of evolution.
But, Imagine for a moment, how life without dying would be: No births, no laughter of chirdren, living and knowing that you'll live for always.

It would be a sad life, a real torture. To know not to live forever is a bliss.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:55 PM

How else could the population be controlled?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 08:26 PM

Well, I personally think my father at the age of 98 was pretty worn out. The last time I brought him to the hospital, we were hoping he would surprise us with another great escape. But he didn't. He did have time for another round of goodbyes, and we will celebrate his life with the family and friends in August. There's no religion involved with father's death. His religion betrayed him 70 years ago and he was not one who found it easy to forgive a betrayal.

I do feel perplexed and even angry about people who die much too soon. And that's when I ask your question.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 08:44 PM

Rick is still living. All you have to do is see the threads dedicated to him, the esteem in which he is held. There is a part of him living now in each one of us. When it's our 'turn' to go, let's all hope that people post about us the way they have and do post about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 12:50 AM

You're quite right, Pied Piper. Death is a tremendously effective mechanism to assist evolution (both on the physical and spiritual levels). So is experience and the learning that comes through experience.

But everyone believes a few fairy stories. They just don't usually recognize them as such. Agnostics and atheists and scientists included. This whole existence is a great fairy story that seems entirely believable as long as one is experiencing it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 01:58 AM

Death is so often a relief from misery, mental or physical. Of one thing we can be sure----it is the easiest thing we will ever do.
Much less traumatic than the event of birth, with an aftermath which is almost sure to be easier to bear!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:28 AM

This thread started out maudlin, got more maudlin and finally got seriously maudlin.
I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems to me that this life on Earth has so many pleasures of the flesh to seek out and enjoy, songs and music to play and appreciate and fine wines, spirits and beers to be consumed that it could take someone three or four hundred years to accomplish and savor even ten percent of these opportunities.
In fact, I have been enjoying myself so much that I have decided to continue infinitely on the quest for pleasure, gratuitous stimulation and enjoyment of the spoils of the planet. To this end, I have made it my philosophy and objective to live forever.
So far, so good!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:00 AM

There are some questions that are sensible to ask, such as: 'What time is it?' or 'What does this machine do?' or 'Who killed that sheikh?' or 'Is there life on Mars?'. There are others that make no sense, such as 'What colour is Tuesday?' or 'How many apples make a banana?'. 'Why should we die?' falls into the second category, I fear. See Richard Dawkins's River Out of Eden in which he discusses this sort of question in relation to human existence.

Posing the question presupposes that there is a purpose to the existence of any individual over and above the propagation of his/her genes - which there ain't. As mentioned above, humans (and even their eggs and sperms) are just their genes' way of making more copies of themselves. See Dawkins's The Selfish Gene, widely accepted as the basis of modern genetic and evolutionary thinking. (As you can tell, I'm something of a fan!)

So that's the philosophical answer (IMHO!)

On a pragmatic level, I agree with the ecological and evolutionary answers given above. If we all stayed around after we'd done our bit for our genes there'd be less to go round for our offspring and so they'd be less likely to survive, once they'd become independent.   Furthermore, without death, natural selection doesn't work and we wouldn't have evolved in the first place.

Of course, if you believe that we were all specially created and there is a purpose to our existence beyond making more genes, you won't accept any of this. It must take a massively strong faith to believe all that stuff - but then I suppose faith is what religion is all about!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:20 AM

Brucie - you got it right. Others live on in the memory of those that remain and in the influence that person had on another, for good or for bad.

I hold to the belief that 'I' am part of the universe, in whatever form I exist. That doesn't change - my energy will always be there in one way or another. Yes. I love life and don't want to leave it yet but if that happens then so be it - I've been priviledged to be given an existence that has provided me with a great deal of life experience that I hope has enabled me to help others in one way or another. I know that I've seriously pissed off some people, but who hasn't and that is also a part of living. So, when I die , there will be people remaining who will remember me for good or bad and that will be my legacy.

A friend's nine year old daughter died a few years back and that could be seen as a pointless event, but that child had influenced so many people in her short life that she will be remembered for a long time. The joy she brought to her family and friends won't ever be forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:46 AM

Ecclesiastes Chapter 9 Verse 5....
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:03 AM

Then again, why should we not? Everything else does-- why should we be exempt?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:07 AM

Because we were made to be the namers of things.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

Maybe we shouldn't have named Death, then, because the named always know the voice of the Namer and home in on the signal.

How does one un-Name then?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:48 AM

Billy, you gotta contact Shane in Blind River. You would get along great with him, seeking out the pleasures of the flesh together. The thing is, man, why struggle to be human when it's so much easier to just be a dumb f**kin' animal? Rock on, Dude!!! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:53 AM

Pied Piper - The busy mind which insists on interpreting symbolic religious poetry in a literal manner soon finds itself mired in a contradictory mudhole of its own creation. Yea, and the little mind groweth vexed and fractious, and doth say to itself, "This is a crock of shit!" Yea, and the little mind then goeth forth to work on its 2004 tax return...a matter which CAN be interpreted accurately by a literal mind...although not easily! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:56 PM

So these verses have a meaning beyond the understanding of us lower beings.
Well that explains it then.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:16 PM

No matter how logical it is that we should die, I will never like the idea. Never be happy with it. Doesn't spoil my time here, or make me less grateful for it, - rather the opposite, but I'll not welcome the idea of Death. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Raptor
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:47 PM

Being a new widdower (that can't spell) I find this thread very usefull Keep it up

David

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:37 PM

Well, the reason it seems so hard is because the question contains a false premise of great importance. It depends (not to sound like William Jefferson Clinton) on the meaning of "we". In the deepest way there is to know that meaning, we do not, actually, die. We just change our costumes, shucking our old bodies like dusty, worn-out smocks.

It would be kind of like posing the deep question "why don't we think", when it seems we do. Hard to answer and endlessly irritatin'. :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:22 PM

GUEST Billy: That part about enjoy the spoils of the Earth ring a bit wrong with me. We owe future generations the benefit of our stewardship. That's the way I see it. I simply wanted to ask where the heck you get off ignoring that--if indeed that's what you meant. If I have misunderstood, accept my apology now. If I haven't, then maybe you got a bad case of anal retinitis. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:20 AM

Littlehawk and Brucie, I was trying, in my own absurd way, to interject a bit of lightness into an otherwise depressing subject (and, as these things tend to become, a FAITH decision).
As an atheist, I don't share your hopes of an afterlife or a reincarnation - and if it does happen, there will be noone more surprised than I! (If I had to come back as another creature, my choice would be a squirrel - they seem to have more fun than most other free creatures)
How egotistical and selfish mankind is to have created a God who will take care of us after we die on the strength of the teachings of a few people from the distant (and confusingly reported) past promulgated by those (kings, priests and other "Highborn" who would lord it over the common people) who stood most to gain from a belief in such a deity. "Religion is the opiate of the masses!" indeed.
In fact I am so laid back about the whole religion thing that I am happy that people find comfort in it.
I just wish they would not try to change my rights not to believe and not try to conscript me and/or my sons/daughters into their holy crusading armies.
Littlehawk, I am human and a deeply pensive creature, but when I read some of the posts here, I begin to despair for the species. In the last hundred years we have gone from the horse and cart to exploration of the moon (human) and the planets (machine) but though our technology leaps ahead, our theological thinking is stuck two milenia behind. However, I did enjoy your encouragement to "Rock On!' And do send me Shane's address - he sounds like someone in whose company I could seriously destroy many brain cells.
Brucie, the industrial spoils of the earth are already sucked up by major corporations - my "spoils" are derived from the farming of the land and the planting and reaping of those fine grains (barley, etc.) that may be malted and converted into fine beers and liquors and grapes that may be fermented into wine.
And finally, Brucie, ignoring the retinitis part, once I have consumed enough of these beers, liquors and wines, my anus has a really difficult time retaining very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:16 AM

Pied - It's not beyond anyone's understanding if they would just get over being totally literal-minded...or merely interpreting everything they read to suit an already established prejudice.

Billy - I know just how you feel. :-) The easiest way to find Shane, I guess, is to go to Blind River's one and only Tim Horton's any day of the week, and hang around for a few hours. When you see this guy come in who looks like this: ratty old plaid jacket, baseball cap on backwards, longish dirty blonde hair, mustache, 5 O'Clock shadow, torn jeans, old lumberjack boots, it might very well be Shane...or it might be another young fool from Blind River. Yell out, "Hey, bolthole!!!" If it's Shane, he'll probably yell back something like, "Whaddya want, Flipface?" From there, say something like, "How about them Leafs, eh?" and offer to buy him a coffee. I predict that within a short time you will be fast friends. You can then make your way to the Iron Horse or some other handy watering hole and try to pick up some local girls. Good luck! Blind River is in North Ontario, a fair way west of Sudbury. It's a hole. Be warned that Shane will try to bum cigarettes, drinks, and drugs off you...

Blind River is a totally excellent place for destroying brain cells, so you're on the right track. :-)

Now don't get the idea I'm against science. I'm not. Science is great. And while the conventional churches may be 2 millenia behind the times, as you suggest, that is not true of all spiritual seekers by any means. Quite the contrary. If spirituality does not agree with science, then something is seriously wrong. The one should support the other, and they do.

I agree that being a squirrel could be pretty cool. I like squirrels a lot.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:07 AM

Perhaps Little Hawk you would go through the Bible and tell us which bits are to be taken literally and which bits taken poetically.

Amos, yet more intellectually lazy Hippy sophistry.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:07 AM

This is from a spiritual viewpoint too weird to put a name to, just some sort of "I don't know what happens, I just know about me, right now" agno-whatsicism.

You ever notice how much passion we put into life when we know there's an end? How late we stay up at festivals, and how we join every damned jam session we can? How we grab that chance for a 'break' when it comes, because the song has to end? How much we teach or learn when the lesson has a finite length? How honest we are with one another, how kind, and how many times and ways we say 'I love you' when one of us is leaving?

Those of us left behind are bereft. We may be lonely as hell and want just one more minute, one more chance. It's not going to happen. I think those feelings eventually pass, or should. Aside from specific lessons we learn from knowing someone, there is one really big general one: LIVE life.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:22 AM

Jeri

Agree totally - just one rider - ENJOY living.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,paid piper
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:35 AM

he who pays the piper calls the tune..

hey pp - here's a buck.. can you play "melancholy baby?"

I'm dying to see you rack.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:42 AM

...Perhaps souls inhabit physical bodies. Perhaps souls provide the focus of our best earthly efforts. When our bodies run down, souls must have new energy masses in which to focus our best earthly efforts...perhaps souls are strengthened by each individual effort on earth, enriched by each individual's unique capabilities and upon death this sould flows into other human beings to provide our best earthly efforts....

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:56 AM

PP:

I really don't understand your condescension. But I hope you get the joy of it.

It seems a lot more intellectually lazy than my posts, frankly.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:27 AM

This question reminds me of another head-scratcher. Someone asked me once.. "Why do Christians think you have to suffer?" My head is still spinning from that one. Actually, the person seemed to be doing a pretty good job of suffering, without even being a Christian.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:49 AM

Anybody else ever read "Childhood's End" by AC Clarke? Or about Teilhard de Chardin's "omega point"? No, I DO think that they are to the point of the thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:34 AM

Rapaire: Yep and Nope!

Blish: "Cities in Flight", same-same.

Death will visit us all. However, the development of self-awareness and consciousness posits that we also generate a somethingness that continues past our shuffle off this mortal coil. One form to another, for we matter, and matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:38 AM

Yes I've read The Omega Point, but it is a while ago.
Omega Point website has various similar versions of the idea.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM

I've read it also; but I did not find it supportable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:56 AM

James Blish: "Cities in Flight"

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:21 PM

Pied Piper - "Perhaps Little Hawk you would go through the Bible and tell us which bits are to be taken literally and which bits taken poetically."

Ha! Yeah, when I've got an extra 16,000 hours free I'll do that for you. Look, my friend, it's not just a question of the Bible. You might also consider reading Buddhist literature, the Taoist writings based on Lao-Tse and other teachers of ancient China, the North American Native Medicine Way teachings (available in many books), Huna teachings from Hawaii, the Jewish Torah, the Baghavad Gita and the Upanishads (from India), the writings of Mohammed, and a great many other such sources of spiritually oriented information.

You will find in every case that these writings contain much in the way of metaphor, allegory, and symbolism that tends to elude the bean-counting literal mind. Consider also that a prejudiced literal mind can easily interpret any piece of poetic writing to support whatever ax it is already inclined to grind and to support any prejudice.

And that is precisely what supposedly religious people in mainstream churches have been doing for many centuries...which is why a teaching based on things such as love and forgiveness (in Jesus' case) ended up being used to justify burning people at the stake and plucking their eyes out with metal tongs.

I dislike the excesses of organized religion just as much as any atheist you are liable to find out there, but I don't let it blind me to all that is not physically quantifiable by some measuring instrument designed by the hand of man.

harpgirl - Sounds about right to me.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:34 PM

Well said, Little Hawk. So, you're NOT just another pretty face.

Read the Book of Martyrs" if ya want to see what a corrupted, bastard group of religious people can do. However, it would take much more than folks like that to make me renounce my belief in God. God has got as much to do with organized religion as the piano player does to what goes on in a whore house. IMHO.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:52 PM

Little Hawk,
Strangely enough I have been in Sudbury - took photos by the BIG NICKEL, did the nickel mine tour (let me clarify that - it was a tour of a Nickel Mine, not a 5-cent tour), watched the train dumping the red-hot slag from the smelter, etc. Never been anyplace that came closer to the images of HELL than that slag dump. It wasn't a part of the world that I figured I would ever have reason to return to - although they did have a pretty good local brewery!
Now you tell me of Blind River, The Iron Horse and this like-minded traveller, Shane. Sounds like my kind of town, Blind River is, My kind of town. May be worth a visit and there's a song in there somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:02 PM

It's not hard to find, Billy. Just follow the TransCanada Highway due west from Sudbury. You will come to little places like Spanish, Espanola, Massy, and so on...and eventually Blind River. The Iron Horse is the main downtown bar. Local amusement possibilities are limited, but they don't let that stop 'em in Blind River. Neil Young wrote about the place in one song. Driving snowmobiles across half-frozen lakes and rivers is a favourite activity in the Spring. Shane has written off 2 or 3 "borrowed" ones doing that...and lived. He's a lucky guy, I guess.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:11 PM

Wait. I think it's "Massie". Hmmm. Wait...

No, it's "Massey". Okay.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:13 PM

What has happened to Blind Drunk in Blind River? Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

Well, just to weave the thread back into it, he has not died.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:14 PM

From too much love of living,
From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving
Whatever gods may be
That no life lives for ever;
That dead men rise up never;
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.

-- Swinburne

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:18 PM

JoeF:

Thanks.

Swinburne said it better than I ever could.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:46 PM

Shane is fine. He didn't post for awhile there cos he was visiting his pals in uniform, if you know what I mean...some kind of misunderstanding over hot stereos and stuff. He is now on the loose again, looking to score some mind-altering substances and hoping to find a loose woman who hasn't rejected him yet. This is not easy, given the fact that Shane generally operates in a fairly localized area, and they're mostly on to him. He needs to take a trip to Toronto for a refreshing change, I think.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:58 PM

IMHO?
what does that mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:45 AM

Freda:

It is a netspeak acronym for "In My Humble Opinion". SOmeitmes IMNSHO (not-so-humble opinion)

Others you may see:
LOL (Laughing out loud)
ROTFLMAO (Rolling on the floor laughi9ng my ass off)
YMMV (your mileage may vary)
IANAL (I am not a lawyer)
BRB (Be right back)

There are many many of these available in lists at various sites around the Internet.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:58 AM

TYVM, Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:01 PM

IMCO, using abbreviations when regular words will do can provide unnecessary barriers to communication. Just the other day I told someone to RTFM and they had no idea what I meant for them to do! UC what i mean? TTFN.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 04:04 PM

You ever notice how much passion we put into life when we know there's an end?... (Jeri)

That's very very true. I have often thought about having a choice of eternal life and I know for certain I would say no to such an offer. Not being able to die from anything (accidents, suicide, falls) would be a complete nightmare. All joy would be gone if we had all the time of the world for everything. Dying is the price we pay for enjoyment.

As an aside, I have often thought that the Christian (but not only Christian) 'promise' of eternal life is a threat in disguise. Paradise to me only looks infinitesimally better than hell. Everything without an end is but torture. If you don't follow me, imagine having an orgasm with no end whether you want it to end or not. You'll enjoy the first five minutes, but after half an hour, or half a century...


Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 04:25 PM

Interesting point, Wolfgang. Indeed, change is the spice of life, and any condition without end would be a serious problem, to put it mildly. I don't think of eternal life (of the soul, I mean) as being without change, however. It's not a static condition. I think of it as being a continuing process of change and of further evolution on every level of being...just as life is.

The ocean, for example, is almost immortal (compared to us, anyway), but it's also always changing. That's how I think of the soul...always learning, always experiencing, always changing.

If this doesn't fit some archaic Christian notion of "heaven" (and it doesn't)...fine with me.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 05:08 PM

Death is nature's way of making us all take at least ONE thing seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 03:01 PM

If anyone sees Shane, say hello for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 07:15 PM

'Two things in life are certain; death and taxes' Samuel Pepys

Death is just part of the cycle of life {and prevents the world being filled with grumpy old gits ;-)}

Subject: RE: BS: Why should we die?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:01 PM

Certain? Not for me, Sammy! I've been told so often of my probably destination (which is pictured as a cross between Manhattan and LA in my mind) that I don't think I'll make the trip, thankyouverymuch.