Smoking at Folk Clubs

Subject: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 12:37 PM

I would be interested in knowing what other mudcatters think about smoking in Folk Clubs.

I am not against people smoking, but I am concerned about passive smoking for the artists performing at my folk club.

Is it normal to ban smoking in the room.

Please don't let this discussion get flamed, I am not interested in whether somebody does or doesn't like smoking. Its about what is the normal situation.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: harvey andrews
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 12:43 PM

The present situation is that where there is a paying audience there is hardly ever any smoking in a folk club.Most are now smoke free. Where there is a session, I suppose it's all down to the participants.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

Thats interesting.

At the opening night of Market Rasen Folk Club, there were a couple of artists that smoked and I think one heavy smoking listener.

The function room that I hire on normal nights, is big enough for people to go to the back of the room if they need to smoke.

On the other hand, would it be just better to ask anybody who smokes to smoke outside the room.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 02:53 PM

Ask the guest whether he/she/they would like people to smoke during their set or not. If they don't want the audience to smoke, then they [the audience] will not do so if they really want to hear the artist/s.
Just a suggestion
John

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:03 PM

Llantrisant is a non smoking folk club.Its better for performers and the audience.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:08 PM

For those who live in a city with no folk clubs and have to play and listen to their traditional music in pubs, there isn't much of a choice -- and my asthma is suffering for it. Honolulu banned smoking in restaurants, but that doesn't include bars, of course.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:38 PM

Anni Fentiman proposed at an AGM several years ago that Herga be a non-smoking club, so it is. By that time very few members smoked anyway. IIFRC, when we had Dick Gaughan as a guest, it was stipulated in his agent's contract that it would be a non-smoking venue, so Dick had to go outside for a smoke.

If the clubroom is separate from the bar, it's reasonable to have a non-smoking policy.

Sharp's is interesting, because the folk club is held in the bar, which at other times is the only part of C# House you can smoke in.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: LesB
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM

At the Bothy we don't ban smoking, but as a rule the handfull of nicotine addicts go out and have a puff in the next room at the interval. It seems to work quite well.

Les

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:31 PM

It is best to ask people not to smoke and if they want to, to go out side and smoke, people don't seem to mind that. What they do mind however is one week it being nonsmoking and the next it being allowed,so they don't know where they stand. Nonsmokers also don't like it. Smoke affects everyone if they are a performer or not, nowadays it is not too much to ask people to smoke outside, it might even stop them from smoking altogether which will be good for everyone.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM

Smoking should be banned everywhere, except in the privacy of one's own home among consenting adults.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Sooz
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM

Graeme Knights helped us to make Gainsborough Folk Club non-smoking. He made it clear that if he could get out of the room for a smoke anyone could. This has remained the situation long after he moved away from our area. Thanks Graeme!!
Personally I hate to sing or listen in any smoky envoronment.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Willa
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM

Cottingham Live is a non-smoking club. People can go outside the main room for a smoke and are still able to hear the performers.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Lanfranc
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:01 PM

As Derek Brimstone and I sat in the separate bar at St Albans Folk Club (a non-smoking venue)recently, enjoying a cigarette (Derek) and a cigar (me), we discussed the current paranoia about smoking, active and passive.

Whilst we could think of many of our folksinging friends who had been plucked from us in an untimely fashion as a consequence of their drinking or indulgence in illegal substances, neither of us could think of anyone we knew who had died of smoking or smoking-related causes.

Last night I witnessed a noisy argument at a session in a public bar, when one participant sat down next to another who was already smoking (other locations were available) and nagged away at the smoker until he lost his temper and told her to f*** off! Which she did, to everyone's delight except hers. What ever happened to tolerance?

Asthma is just as likely to be caused by the emissions of diesel engines, but that doesn't make anyone concerned as to whether they ought to drive their oil-burning car or take a bus (often the worst emitters) to a club.

When smoking has been outlawed, alcohol will be next, and you won't even be able to sup a pint (unless it's Coca-Cola or bottled water) from your pewter tankard at a Folk Festival. Nanny rules!!

Another few years of our current regime, and the only thing it will be legal to smoke will be cannabis (not that I mind the odd spliff).

O tempora, O mores!

Alan

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:05 PM

Pure denial.

Alcohol, never. Unless I am forced to breathe your breath.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:14 PM

Thank you one and all for the honest opinions.

I agree that you have to have to have a rule, one way or another.You may lose some people, but at least everybody knows where they stand.

In future and based on the previous post, I will ask people who want to smoke to go out the room.

It is a bit difficult because everybody behind the bar smokes. But that is another issue.

What I don't want to do is ban smokers just becuase somebody hates being in the presence of smokers. It works both ways.

I got cancer through smoking, so I know only too well what it means. What I don't want to do is force my will on people, without having a general consensus on it.

If you are a smoker, it is very difficult to go without the weed, I know I used to smoke 50 a day.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:18 PM

My voice just doesn't work in a smoky atmosphere.

I used to go early to one folk club and sing one song then stay until the smoke got too thick - then head for the door and fresh air.

This was before smoking was considered anything but a habit.

I made it clear that it was only the smoke which drove me out, but no one seemed to understand my problem.

One evening when there had been some sort of meeting in the room and the room was thick with really pungent smoke I went in and was about to walk out again when the organiser grabbed me and pulled me to the front to fill in as there was no one to sing. I asked for the windows to be opened as I opened my guitar case, but no one moved.

I got through three lines and my voice was gone - then I started to cough, so I just grabbed the case and staggered outside where I choked for five minutes.

I don't think that going into a smoky room once in a while would kill me - it is just that I can't sing when I am in there. I can't sing in the Middle Bar at Sidmouth once the smoke accumulates, I either squeek or go mute or start to cough. Out in the fresh air I can sing all week. I went to the tent in the garden at The Volunteer last year and will probably be found there again.

Anne

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: LesB
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:19 PM

Lanfranc may or may not be right about his views on the dangers of smoking, but the fact remains that it is very unpleasant for other people (non smokers) to be assailed by someone else's addiction.
Les

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:01 PM

What a load of crap earier on.

There are many cases of smoking causing cancer,plus other conditions the fact that you may not know of anyone yourself is irrelevant lanfranc, although Roy Castle is one example.

I hate coming home stinking of smoke late at night, is is repugnant.


Those who insist on smoking are totally selfish and show total disregard for the welfare of others.

You can tell singers who smoke from the sound of their voice, they lack edge and have a huskiness which to some ears is sexy, to me it means they smoke.

What annoys me is intelligent people trying to justify smoking as being a healthy activity!!
Smokers have zero tolerance at my clubs and anywhere there are children.
At what age do smokers give their offspring their first fag?
Do they encourage their kids to fag it?
What example do they set?

I really admire those who try and give it up.

Do smokers drink dirty water?

Are we enlightened or not.

Its great to get home and still smell clean after a night out singing, apart from the sweat factor!

The smell of stale smoke on anyone or anything is a turn off.

Smoking is not cool, not smoking is cool.

St Albans 'Windward' and 'Spotlight ' Clubs are pleased to be non-smoking clubs, thank you for respecting this fact should you visit.

I will not attend any clubs that have smoke, so the middle bar is out, and I was surprised to read that sometimes the smoke gets to be so thick.
Maybe its not just the smoke that is thick.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM

Once again: smoking is different from drinking, and all our other habits, because we impose it on other people. Nobody goes round pubs grabbing people by the head and pouring drink down their throats; snufftakers don't take people by the nose and force snuff up their nostrils. People who smoke in the company of unwilling nonsmokers are in effect doing that.

Minimal good manners mean that, if you want to light up in a room, any room, or a vehicle, you always ask the other people if they mind - and you don't take that permission for granted, or feel that you have been denied your rights if they say no. You simply haven't got a right to impose your smoking on other people. It's as simple as that.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:17 PM

I don't smoke. I used to. Gave up several times.

Smoking was probably the root cause of Jacqui's death. My long term (25 year) partner for those who don't know from other threads.

I notice that in very smoky atmospheres my voice lasts less long.

I still object to discrimination against smokers. If I actually have a problem singing as performer because of nearby smokers I will ask them if they will please move. If I earned my living as a singer I might well require a larger safety margin. But except for asthma sufferers who cannot tolerate smoke, I really think that in a pluralist society asking smokers to smoke at the back, or to open windows is exclusionary enough. Distaste does not justify discrimination.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM

Smoking is unpleasant for the innocent and is best avoided, but we might usefully do without some of this self-righteous piety. How many of the non-smokers who complain so vociferously have given up the filthy (and far more destructive) habit of running a car, I wonder?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Paul S
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:29 PM

The city of Ottawa has banned smoking in all restaurants, bars and clubs. The reason has little to do with the general public health; customers can come and go as they please. It's for the employees.

I work in an office, and it's been illegal to smoke in a workplace for years and years. Bars and restaurants are workplaces too. If I have the right to sit in my cubicle without someone smoking beside me, then bartenders, wait staff and performers should have the same right on their jobs.

Paul

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:53 PM

I won't go to places where they allow smoking. I've tried and I just can't tolerate it. Smoking cost me my voice, I'm not about to let it cost me my life.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:52 AM

Lots of red herrings coming in guys. The question in the first post was about how to deal with smoking in folk clubs, but the pillocks who want smoking are, as usual, attempting to justify their filthy antisocial habit by introducing irrelevant arguments about alcohol and the internal combustion engine.

If I drink, the only person affected is me, I can't get my car through the pub door and up the stairs to the Club room so the engine's emissions don't affect the attendees. So both arguments are fallacious and the last resorts of scoundrels.

And asking people to smoke at the back of the room doesn't work either, the smoke still hangs around and stinks like shite - our club on the first floor of a pub is non-smoking but the smoke-drift from the downstairs bar still means that I'm coughing like a broken-down old mare the next morning.

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Kaleea
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:00 AM

In this day & time we all know that if smoking causes cancer, it certainly will cause all kinds of respiratory distress to persons attempting to breathe the same air as the smokers. Many, many people I know (including myself) MUST stay away from smoke for their health, and we consequently often have less access to acoustic Music. Bummer, man! I would greatly appreciate more smoke-LESS environments.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 05:46 AM

Like Kendall and Kaleea, I am automatically "banned " from pubs, restaurants folk clubs, or any public function where smoking is the "norm". I cannot sit comfortably and eat in a restaurant---or a private home--where even one person is smoking. This is something very hard to understand by habitual smokers, particularly those who think [seldom with justification---] that their smoking has done them no physical harm. But to call aversion to second-hand smoke "paranoia" is a form of insult, used to ridicule the statements of those affected by it. Please be aware--the effects of downstream or second hand smoke can range from simple irritation to real distress.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 05:47 AM

No smoking is the way to go. Even if it costs me a few listeners and maybe singers.

Hopefully the no smoking law will be introduced in the UK, then there will not be an argument.

I have every personal reason to ban smoking, due to having had cancer of the bladder myself caused by smoking, plus my wife and young daughter are asthmatic.

I want to put the ban on smoking into force, but not because of my own requirements, but on general concensus of opinion.

I think that has become obvious from the post so far.

Incidentally, I believe that there is a no alcohol pub or bar just opened in Gainsborough.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,eileen
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:08 AM

Just a sideline really...but an important one....strollin' johnny...if you drink you shouldn't even have your car in the carpark.
Perfect example of how the consumption of alcohol can have second hand effects. I have to admit..here in Dublin this past week, I've socialized with many people I'd have not spoken to in the past..some good ..some....really unpleasant from the effect of drink.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Sooz
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:23 AM

Good point, Eileen but he leaves the car at home if he's drinking. I can assure you of that as I'm usually the designated driver!! (Although not always, especially when we go to Louth Folk Club where they have Old Peculiar....... :o))

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:19 AM

Thye are not all peculiar in Louth Sooz :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:32 AM

Couple of years ago, playing in a different line-up, I completely lost my voice for around 5 weeks which my doctor put down to working in smoky clubs. I don't sing - I just play the fiddle.

Last night on getting home from another gig, I realised that it's a long time now since I got back smelling like an ashtray and having to wash my hair before sleeping.

I am an asthmatic but don't object if other people light up - it's their call, but it's great when they don't!

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: wigan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:50 AM

we meet in a room with a low ceiling so we ask (not tell) people tosmoke outside the room. It works. I smoke.but accept that others do not like it. However, many of those who object to the habit are little more than control freaks. Please note that my wife died of a form of throat cancer.She DID'NT smoke! we didn't sit in smokey pubs/bars etc If you want to lecture me about it then make sure you never run a car or similar which cause far more deadly emissions

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 08:49 AM

wigan, your tired old argument is nothing short of silly. There are many causes of throat cancer; smoking is only one of them.
I have been assured by three different doctors that my throat cancer was caused by 47 years of smoking. Period. I'm willing to allow that they know more about it than I do. Are you?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:17 AM

It amazes me how smokers dare to claim that they are the victims! I'm a teacher, and 15 years ago the school staffroom was filled with smoke; there was at that time also the odd pregnate teacher grabbing a few minute rest - but the smokers kept on smoking. It's almost frightening how people who despatately want something will find a way to justify their actions. I bet Genghis Knan was convinced he was morally in the right to kill tens of thousands of people.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:27 AM

What's the problem? If you indoors, you don't smoke unless everyone else in the room is in agreement. Couldn't be simpler, for anyone with elementary good manners.

If you need the nicotone, take it some other way, such as snuff. If you like blowing smoke around, which is quite fun, do it outdoors.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:39 AM

Remember Alex Campbell
John

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:38 AM

And Derrol Adams, and Jacques Brel and...I could go on. I'm asthmatic so it's a request in my contract that the room be no smoking. I've had to put up with some vilification in the past but the battle has been good as won I'm glad to say. I remember once a thread on a UK music group when I appeared up in the North East, still a bit of a bastion for smoking. The club was a smoker but I had permission to put up a sign I had that said;
"For medical reasons the artist politely requests no smoking"
This is what a member of the audience posted;

What did get up my nose however,
was that we had a visit from Harvey Andrews,
before he started to play he placed posters everywhere round the room
'NO SMOKING' & 'Thank you for not smoking'etc;
My wife does smoke, and she took great offence from this action
so did others, needless to say, this did not stop her from smoking"

That was 1997, so progress has been made I think!

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM

Just two weeks ago, Mudcat said farewell to one of its most beloved members; someone who died decades too young from cancer after years of smoking and playing in smoky bars and folk clubs. After seeing such effects of smoking and second-hand smoke on such a valued member of this community, it is mindboggling that anyone would defend smoking in public places.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:42 AM

GUEST: Eileen - I can't thank you enough for proving my point with another, totally inappropriate and inaccurate, red herring. Furthermore you proved one of my other points - that addicts will use any argument, however distorted, in an attempt to justify the disgusting things they do.

I don't drink when I drive for precisely the reason you state - the irresponsibility of risking harming others. Shame the dirty buggers who insist on inflicting their foul poison on me don't have the same regard for my well-being.

Thanks Lass.
Johnny

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:04 PM

Nice to see my old friends, Drinking and Driving, mentioned again in a smoking thread. I thought they had died of embarassment years ago...;-)

Drinking, while having some tragic secondary effects at times, does not always affect everyone in close proximity as smoking does.

The infernal combustion engine, while being an evil, is a necessary evil. At present it has no viable alternative. There are viable alternatives to smoking.

Stop wheeling out the old chestnuts please.

Now, on a more positive note, why has no-one considered the technological answer? Surely with todays modern filtration systems we must be able to have extractors and purifiers that would keep everyone happy? Or is the licensed trade not to happy abput spending the money to put such systems in? Or am I perhaps a little too cynical?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

And, Dear Eileen, someone else being 'unpleasant from the effects of drink' will not have a carcinogenic effect on you.

Johnny

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:56 PM

Now I don't want to sound "holier than thou" on this occasion, but if you look back at my post earlier in this thread I do think it is a bit less sanctimonious than some of the later ones. I still object to discrimination against smokers. I don't object to necessary and reasonable safeguards, particularly for those medically hypersensitive. But a little bit of restraint and tolerance, please. Those used to be characteristics of which we English were proud.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:05 PM

I still object to cancer being inflicted on me by selfish addicts. I far prefer sanctimony, no-one died of sanctimoniousness.
Johnny

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM

Restraint and tolerance don't help when you're coughing up bits of lung. I watched my mum die of emphysema-induced heart failure caused by smoking - it was slow and horrible. No-one should die like that.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:52 PM

Ok guys, this is getting flamed and going away from the original post.
So if you don't all behave yourselves I will come down on you in a cloud of smoke and devour you all. :-)

The original question was

Is it normal to ban smoking in a Folk Club.

I am trying to promote a folk club where all ages are welcomed. The younger the better, becuase it is the youngsters who are going to continue the folk legacy in what ever shape or form it may represent.

That means that young children will be there. They should not be subject to smokers.

People who have ailments such as asthma, should also not be subject to smokers.

People who smoke should not be subject to abuse from non smokers.

And vice versa

People who dont smoke should not take abuse from smokers.

At the end of the day as a person running a folk club, I have a duty to safeguard all of the people who don't smoke.

Therefore I have to ask smokers if they would mind smoking outside the room. I am sure most smokers understand and are only too willing to help in this way. I will have small breaks between each artist, where nicotinees can nip out have a quick drag and hopefully not miss anything.

I don't think you can order anybody not to smoke, and I am sure that to do so only leads to confrontation.

So anybody that comes to the next one on April the 23rd who is a smoker, I hope you will support me in not smoking in the room.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

I can't wait for a pack of cigarettes to hit $10 a pack.

Even now at $5 a pack in many places, just think what else can be done with that money.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:54 PM


Is it normal to ban smoking in a Folk Club.


If you define "Folk Club" as an organisation which puts on a staged performance in a separate room then I would no more expect to be allowed to smoke there than in the Royal Festival Hall.

Sessions in bars are a different matter.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:56 PM

Noone is seeking to discriminate against smokers. It's just that there's a place and a time for everything.

If you want to juggle, fine, but don't do it in the cinema. If you want to play the bodhran, fine, but not in a reading room. If you are having a barbecue, that's ok, but not in the living room. These are not restrictions on your liberty.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM

Take your point there Peter.
My folk club is in a function room.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:37 PM

When we went non smoking at our club, it was and is, in a bar, I thought here we go all the smokers will get up set and smoke anyway or storm off and not come back, but as it turned out they all agreed and went into the other bar to smoke, and one even said he prefered a smoke less room as well. Goodie I thought.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:45 PM

I am hoping I will get the same response.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:50 PM

Yes good luck, where is your Folk Club? If it's non smoking I might be able to come to it. I also put out polite no smoking please and thankyou signs.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:53 PM

There was an old character here who owned a gas station and sold such necessities as cigarettes and condoms. A guy from away came in, bought a pack of cigarettes, and started to light up. The old guy says, no smoking here please. The guy got irritated and said "I bought them here, why can't I smoke them here"?
Old fella says, "You by laxitive in the drug store, you don't shit on their floor."

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 04:24 PM

Martin
The Market Rasen Folk Club is at the Market Rasen Social Club, Serpentine Street, Lincolnshire.

Is Barton - Barton upon Humber? If so I plan to come along a week on Tuesday.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:03 PM

If it is being held in a Function Room I don't see why you will have any problem in your no smoking request.How could anyone seriously complain about a fresh atmos.

As someone pointed out it is a concert venue, albeit on a smaller scale, and in most concert venues not smoking is the norm.

I belong to the breed of smokers who annoy other smokers....can have one a week or one a month, but would not dream of lighting up anywhere that has a roof, I find that a good rule of thumb.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:13 PM

Johnny, I saw what it did to Jacqui. I still ain't for banning it.

Kendall, did they sell condoms too?

Martin from Barton, you said you might come to my party if it were in Barton. Be warned, smoking will be permitted. Just use the ashtrays.

Villan - no smoking, and auditions for floor singers! I guess you and I have different views about folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:16 PM

Hi Villian no The Bull in Barton le Clay is in Bedfordshire and it's on a Monday. Luckly I like driving and singing.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:19 PM

Hello Richard. Where is your party? I will bring some clothes pegs

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:09 AM

Richard if everybody had the same viewpoint as each other, then life would be so boring. So I ceratinly have no problems about you having a different point of view to me.

I am not a musician or have the desire to be. I am a listener. I am giving up my time FOC, to provide a folk club in a very rural market town with 3500 inhabitants. If the music is poor, then nobody will bother to come along to watch.

Let me just correct you on auditions.
I don't do auditions. I just ask anybody that would like to do a floorspot, to let me know in advance, so that I can allocate the time for them. I give them a straight 10 to 20 minute floorspot, depending on how they feel. All I ask is that they can perform in front of an audience and are capable of singing/playing for 20 minutes if required. If all the floorspots have been allocated, I offer them floorspots for the next available evening. I can't see anything wrong with that. My understanding from the artists, is they they thourougly enjoyed themselves. Incidentally so did the listeners. About 40 people attended the opening night, and at least half of them were listeners. The only way that I will get get people to listen is to provide reasonable artists.

I also have 2 floorspots for youngsters under 21. I have feelers into the schools, and as I speak, there are a couple of youngsters, being developed by their music teacher, so that they can play on the next night, which is April 23rd. I have no idea what they are going to sing or play. I don't ask those questions. All I ask is that they can play accoustic.

I have one person who has been playing for about a year and a half, who when he feels ready, will do a floorspot.

Finally, if somebody would like to perform, but would prefer to jam with somebody else, then I allow them to that. e.g. Diathi and Bloke in the corner. They did really well. I also had Oakly, Liam Robinson and two youngsters of 18 jamming together.

As to smoking, that is a very deeply divided issue. Again you run yours your way (I don't have any problems with that) and I will run mine my way.
Do you have children in your club? Do you have people with breathing problems? Do you have people who already have had cancer through smoking and are on reprieve? Do you want to see young people coming into the folk world and survive until they are well past retirement age?
All of these issues have to be taken into account when you stop smoking in the room. I happen to think that I am being unselfish in my decision. Are you?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:15 AM

Martin, thats a shame that you live so far away. If ever you are up this way and would like a floorspot of 20 minutes (I assume you are an artist, not a listener), please let me know in advance.
If you for any reason just pop in on the spur of the moment, then I will do my best to try and accomodate you.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:30 AM

Aahh, the annual smoking thread...nice to see the old stalwarts still dusting up the old arguments and trotting them out for the yearly exercise!

A reluctant smoker of 35 years, I am trying to give up again, and I think I am close to it - one final push should do it. But irrespective of that, I would not smoke in a club, and I would prefer clubs to be non-smoking venues.

Why? Well, folks, the world has moved on, and we all know better now. These are not the 60's or 70's. Whether the dangers of secondary smoking are proven or not, is immaterial. I would not even want to risk having someone on my conscience. Plus, a smoke-free atmosphere is certainly better for performers and audience - try belting out the choruses of a few shanties in a smoky den, and see how your throat feels in the morning.

But more than that - I would not do it, just for the annoyance factor. It clearly does annoy/affect some people - more perhaps than are prepared to complain - and so, out of consideration alone:

Let's just not do it in the clubs.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:45 AM

HI Martin - you did post to the thread about my party    Summer House/Garden Session???.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:07 AM

It would be nice if "no smoking" spread to jazz and blues clubs. I've been pickled in other folk's smoke houses for 40 years and at its worst my sneezing drowns out the band!

RtS
(retaining the right to fart, however)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:39 AM

Hey Roger, farting's good. Been known to drop the odd rasper myself every now and then. Farts don't stick to other people's hair and clothes or hang around the room for too long and, as far as I'm aware, no-one ever got cancer from passive farting.
Cheers old lad.
Johnny :0)

(Just attempting to lighten up a bit Les!)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:54 AM

Strollin'
I hope you don't go round lighting up whilst you are farting. It would make your backside look like a bunsen burner.
Farts could clear the room out, and disrupt the evening. :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 05:00 AM

Villan: You forget that there are a number of catters who think that "folk club" only means song circle and an audience is something that distracts from the singing.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 05:06 AM

Guest
Unfortunately that does seem to be the case.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:11 AM

Keep it up El Grek already your voice is clearer and stronger and I thought it was my imagination.

How about an anti-smoking shanty

Stick it on, peel it off

throw away--chesty cough

etc


Last night one of our members who had a jazz gig on Saturday, afterwards told the landlord that he wasnt going to do the next gigs because of the smoke in the pub.

And we are talking quality -cruise ship- artistes


Hence I prefer to play and organise venues that I can have influence over and most of the contracts for the full-time folk artistes that I engage include a non-smoking clause

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Jean Phillips
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:13 AM

I attend a number of folk clubs, some smoking, some non-smoking and I prefer the atmosphere of the non-smoking clubs by a country mile.

I go to the non-smoking clubs on a regular basis, but I visit the smoking clubs only when I really want to see a specific performer, so they lose my custom a lot of the time.

Smoking is now banned in theatres, cinemas and concert venues for the benefit of everyones health, so why not folk clubs? Breathing in other's stale smoke does put some people off attending some clubs as regularly as they'd like to, so is it too much to ask for smokers to nip outside, or go to the public bar to light up when they feel the need? That way everyone's happy. The smokers get their fix (after all, no one is asking them to stop, just to take their smoke away from the majority who don't want it) and the non-smokers enjoy the evening without being engulfed in a tobacco smoke cloud, and we can ALL enjoy the music.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:48 AM

This is an answer from one of the artists who attended the opening evening.

>I would like an honest answer as to how you would feel, if I
asked all smokers if they wouldn't mind having a quick drag whenever they liked, but outside the room. <
Answer
Tricky one this. Given the general move towards restricting smoking, I guess that most smokers are getting used to this so perhaps there would not be a problem. On the other hand, those who smoke regularly (I only have the occasional cigar, usually when I'm out for a drink) may well see this a soff putting - especially if , like many of us, they normally go to open pub sessions where smoking is allowed. I noticed that a fair few of the instrumentalists smoke (most of Cara for example).
Smoking at the bar, or at the back of the room might be the best option - then at least smokers don't have to leave the room and non-smokers and singers can sit at the front with out too much discomfort.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:48 AM

How about an anti-smoking shanty? Here's a couple of choruses - add verses to taste

Puff away you superkings
Puff away, drag way
Emphysema's all it brings
Cancer and heart failure

Farewell to my Marlboros and Rothmans
No more with a cig I'll be seen
I'm giving up smoking
You may think I'm joking
But you'll never see me with Rizlas green

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:49 AM

Smoking in any public place - or in a private home if there are children there - is just plain wrong. If someone punches me in the nose, other than in self-defense, he goes to jail if there's a cop around. If he blows poison gas in my face, he claims I'm infringing on his rights if I complain. Pack of a******s.

Smoking in a place where someone is trying to sing for the enjoyment of other people who have paid to hear him/her, is wrong to several higher orders of magnitude. They're sabotaging the performer's gig as surely as if they set off a siren during the song.

Smoking tobacco has been described as the only manufactured product which, if used strictly according to the manufacturer's instructions, is fatal to the user. In some cases, that's a public service; but it's fatal to the other people in the vicinity, too.

Last summer we did a gig for a politician. When he went to do his speech, we'd already heard it, so we went outside to wait, and consume the free sodas and ice cream, so we could tear down when he was finished. A lady came out and asked if it was all right to smoke where we were. I said, sure, if you don't mind if I pick my nose and flick it at you. She went off in a huff. Seemed fair to me. I'd have been doing her lots less harm than she would me.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:19 AM

Well, I'd call that pompous and excessive, and the kind of attitude that makes it harder to get non-smoking policies accepted. When you're congregated outside I'd say it's fair enough to get the smokers to stand downwind.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:32 AM

I know this man, and believe me, he is anything but pompous. He speaks his mind.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:35 AM

Plenty of pompous people speak their mind. Still. if the

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:29 AM

Well, this is a well-rehearsed topic but I'll add my usual two-penn'orth. No, I dont think you should ask people's permission to smoke in a pub(or not in Enfgland anyway). Pubs are places where people go to drink and smoke if they so wish. If you dont like that, lobby for change, but until the change happens dont be obnoxious. In peoples' houses, work places etc, of course you should ask.
   Folk clubs: simple, make your own rules if its in a private room, and ask people to stick to them. People won't object, if they do, throw them down the stairs.
    But telling people to stop smoking in a pub is like asking people to stop shagging in a brothel. You may not approve, but let's face it, that's what the place is for. Of course, in the fullness of time qnd with appropriate legislation, brothels may turn into place where people go to read the Guardian and eat tofu-burgers. But till then...
    I speak as a non-smoker, but when I go up to the Jolly Porters for a pint I know many people there have gone to enjoy their cigarettes. I have no intention of asking them to stop. When parliament decides otherwise, so be it. And there will still be exhaust belching cars driving past the pub. Smoke stinks, but not as much as hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:42 AM

Actually it doesn't have to wait for the law - publicans can introduce no smoking policies, and some have. That proabbaly means thye have found that it paid off.

After all, in pretty well all pubs I use, smokers are outnumbered several times over by people who are not smoking.

Perhaps the Irish theme pubs could lead the way, and make the places a bit more authentically Irish.

But I'd not advise asking strangers in pubs to stop smoking, since it'sd be unlikely to work. If I was smoking in a pub, more expeically if noone else in the room was smoking, though I would see it as good manners to ask the people I was with if it was all right, and I would abide by their wishes.

But what really bugs me is when people put their fag down to smoulder away in the ash-tray, or even spiked on a guitar string. At least when it's secondhand smoke the worst of it has been filtered out by the smoker's lungs before it gets to you.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Betsy
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:02 PM

I'm a smoker - but if Villain says the Club's rules are No Smoking - then so be it and let's abide by that.
If there's another room to cater for we smokers then good – non-smokers can keep out if they wish.
If there isn't an alternative, - apart from standing outside on a Winter's night, I shall probably look for an alternative sort of evening.
I will definitely think twice about going into a public house where I am not allowed to smoke whilst I having a drink.
If pubs clubs can survive without smokers and cigarette sales - then the game is won.
If not, then a little tolerance and realigning of smoker's behaviour will need to be addressed.
I shall view with interest the very same situation in Ireland.
Just to wander …as many others have in this thread….
With all due respect to those who have lost someone with lung cancer, (my Mum and Dad died of the same), I have no desire to repeat this, but equally I have no desire to die healthy, which is also a possibility if some organisers turn a blind another group of people within their supporters.
Those who perhaps drink too much then drive home from folk nights put innocent smokers like me at serious risk from being knocked over.
Of course this last sentence is tongue in cheek - I'm going over the top and you know it - but it is not outwith the bounds of possibility.
It is this insidious practice of people, minding other people's business, groups mentally bullying other groups with their views, which make me view these prospects as oh so depressing ……………….
Finally don't forget these smokers are generally fond of a drink, and, if the Landlord / Licensee is not making "enough" money over the bar at your Folk night – you may soon end-up a non-smoking, non-drinking night folk night in the Church Hall or the Cub Hut or other . Do me a favour!!!!
How come no one has mentioned Hydrofluorocarbons-the strongest carciogenic found in domestic smoke - Barbcues . Separate thread anyone ??

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

I'm a vegetarian (anti-barbecue) non-smoker!

(Giggle)

Still drive a car though - couldn't get to the blessed folk clubs without it.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

Betsy you will be pleased to know that I am going to try letting people smoke at the back of the room. If that works, then all the better.
Nuff said. :-)

Are you coming along then on April 23rd?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:00 PM

Smoking while you're driving isn't a terribly good idea. Much better to have the full use of both hands

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:49 PM

He he.
I remember when i used to smoke a pipe. A sherlock holmes one.
I was driving along one day when I accidentally dropped my pipe on my lap. I coudn't do anything other than try to stop safely. That I did, with my trousers already on fire. I was very lucky I didn't burn my privates. I never smoked a pipe again. I also count myself very lucky that I didn't have a crash.
I laugh now but at the time I wasn't laughing.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM

Billy Connolly, among others, once said that saying non smokers can stay up the non smoking end of a room is like telling swimmers they can swim in the non-clorinated end of a swimming pool.
Sadly it's true. I've tried to cope with smoke and asthma for 30 years. I've tried everything and I've heard it all.
                                                       Joy

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:22 PM

A few practical points that I don't think have yet been covered are:

Putting smokers at the doors and windows ensures that the slightest breeze will blow their smoke INSIDE.

Air conditioners and fans spread smoke around.

A raised area, like a stage, will get more smoke because it drifts upwards.

People with smaller air passages, like women and children, are more greatly compromised by second-hand smoke. Joy

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:28 PM

Just got in from another lovely non smoking event, hair is fine clothes don't stink and my throat feels happy, can't wait for the next one.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:36 PM

Villan

All the folk clubs I attend on a regular basis are non smoking in fact it was only Lancfranc who lit up on purpose the other week where they are encouraging it to be smoke free where I can remember smoke and I do attend alot of clubs.

Its the way to go, believe , you will attract more than you'll lose.

If I know its a smoker I'll only go if the money makes it worthwhile but I'll usually ask everyone to refrain from smoking even if the organiser doesnt.

Its in my own interest, sod it, if the smokers dont care, then neither do I if I offend them.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:50 AM

Its a real problem.

Its either no smoking, which I agree with, or I try firstly to see what happens if people who want to smoke, go and have a smoke at the far end of the room. They can at least still hear the music. The room is big enough to at least give it a try.
If that doesn't work, then it will be a no smoking venue.

At least I will have tried to accomodate the smokers.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:05 AM

This is a non-argument, folks...let's stub it out.

If I visit non-smoking friends, I don't smoke in their house. Even if they kindly bring out an ashtray for me - I want to leave pleasant memories, not smoke odour in their curtains and upholstery. And I go visit them again - because they are friends. I don't stop my visits for that reason.

Same with the clubs. I will visit, or not visit, based on the quality of the music, the craic, the company. Not based on whether it's smoking or not.

Sheesh... The rest is just dancing around the same old handbag.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:16 AM

A handbag with a bomb in it El Greko????
But you're correct, time to wind it down - we're going round and round the same old arguments. Those who want to smoke will never see it any other way, and they're too stubborn to be persuaded by the rest of us who are right!!!!!
Cheers Mate :0)
Johnny

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:22 AM

All in all a very good thread, but I agree time to end it.

Thank you to one and all for your input. Gratefully received.

It still doesn't make life easy, but compromise as much as possible is whats needed.

Bernie Taupin wrote Saturday Nights all right for Fighting, which I umderstand was about Market Rasen. All the mobs from other villages used to come to Market Rasen each Saturday and the night would end up in a glorious punch up. Doesn't happen anymore!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't like that to happen on Friday nights at the Market Rasen Folk Club. :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:45 AM

At least, if it comes to a "punch up" the non smokers will last longer.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:08 AM

*huff* don't you *puff* believe it!

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:54 AM

snuff said...

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Phlegmb
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:27 AM

Breezy

Roy Castle's sainted arse. I understand from a friend involved in such matters that Mr Castle managed to pop his clogs without contributing his fair share to the common wealth. Cancer research would benefit more from us all paying our share rather than paying what we want into a collection tin. He made plenty money playing in clubs and he eventually paid the price - or so he said. So much fame -so little talent.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:45 AM

Don't go there! I had the pleasure (and it was indeed a pleasure) of working with Roy Castle many years ago, and he was an immense talent and a very gracious guy. I know nothing of his financial affairs, nor do I care, they have f**k-all to do with his talent or the circumstances of his death.
Johnny :0(

And for that matter, f**k all to do with this thread.
J

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM

I do not allow smoking in my club, I'm just glad I banned it while I was still a smoker, anyone who wants a fag goes into the bar I have had no complaints. Cllr

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:49 PM

Maybe I should stand there and start smoking, and then say that I am not going to smoke in the room, and if I want one, I will go outside and I expect everybody else who smokes to do the same.
They don't have to know I don't smoke. :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Phlegmb
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:35 PM

Oh strollin johnny with that ability in the use of the anglo saxon language no wonder you thought Castle was talented.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Bentley
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

I smoke myself,but at Bramley,I have a non-smking policy on a Featured Artist night.On other nights,I leave it to the visitors, but I don't smoke in the function room out of respect to the singers.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:25 PM

Cllr and Bentley, I like your attitudes, you would make it easy for me.

When I started this thread, I didn't expect to see 100 posts, but we are there.
I posted the first and the 100th so that was good timing :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:03 AM

Well Phlegmb, glad to see a well-reasoned and skilfully put-together argument there. NOT. My post was a personal recollection of my experience of the man, yours was simply vitriol fired up by hearsay. I reckon personal experience carries more weight.
There, no naughty words to offend your delicate eyes.

Bye Now.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Betsy
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM

Phlegmb,
I didn't much care for Roy Castle - but there is no doubt that he was a very highly talented multi-instrumentalist and almost competent singer who did a bit of dancing also.
The competition he faced just to make it through the ranks of the entertainment and musical scene and establish himself was enormous.
I believe he hailed from Huddersfield which at that time contained the highest number of musicians per head of Capita in Britain - and don't forget how elitist ( in the nicest way )the brass bands in that part of the world were,and still are still are, for musicians wishing to enter into their into their ranks.So there is no doubt that the guy was good.
I'm not sure about the secondary smoking - surely if it was the case, he may have been responsible for tertiary smoking - after blowing it all back at us through his instuments.
No need to bang on in a music Forum / thread about other issues, and ,if you get offended by Anglo Saxon - I suggest you raise the matter in a letter of complaint to the Editor of Bunty or some other young girls magazine - after all - they may give a F*ck 'cos S.Johnny and myself (for two)- certainly don't.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:57 AM

Phlegmb - that's a pretty nasty word too. But then it would be.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:03 AM

Thanks Betsy and McGrath - I needed that!
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,patriot1314
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM

1/ Air conditioning DOES work..... my local pub has it, no cloud of smoke (unless the coal fire is on.....it sucks the smoke from the chimney and fills the pub!)

2/ Smoke is HEAVIER than air, so does not drift upwards!

I have been to a couple of non smoking folk nights, the atmosphere was as missing as the smoke was!
The place was full of bank managers and teachers who would'nt know a wild rover if he popped up in their porridge.

How about banning Guinness and blokes with ponytails from folk nights?

Oh!.... if your clothes stink, try washing them..... It works

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:41 PM

patriot 1314 try growing up. Your addiction and the lack of the good sense to kick it is not my problem.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:46 PM

I live in a country where majority rules. 75% of us don't smoke. It's not hard to figure.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:53 PM

So, 14 postings after we said "enough of this silly argument", it goes on. I guess there's always someone who must have the last word (said he!).

GUEST,Patriot1314, I will not even comment on your posting's logic. If you think it makes sense and provides a convincing argument, let's leave it at that. But your posting also contains its own answer. Please, just keep avoiding non-smoking clubs. That way we'll never meet, and we'll both be happy.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM

Kendall: I'm fascinated by your principle of democracy, that if 75% of the population dont do something, the other 25% should be banned from doing it. Would this apply to other minority activities, like guitar-playing, keeping hens, jogging, writing down the numbers on the front of locomotives, writng to Mudcat?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:05 PM

Come to think of it, wasn't the old USSR run on that principle?
Just joking.
Really.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:14 PM

Kendall: I'm fascinated by your principle of democracy, that if 75% of the population dont do something, the other 25% should be banned from doing it. Would this apply to other minority activities, like guitar-playing, keeping hens, jogging, writing down the numbers on the front of locomotives, writng to Mudcat?

That argument misses the point. Pretty much completely.

I consider myself a libertarian (lower case), but smoking in public is not a personal liberty issue.

I will defend, with enthusiasm, the right of any adult to smoke at any time, provided that:

1) It is done where no one else has to breath the second-hand smoke - including the smoker's own children, living in his/her residence, and

2) Some arrangement is made for the burden of the additional health care costs to be imposed on the smoking public rather than the general public - like dumping all of the tobacco taxes into the health care system.

But smoking in an enclosed public space is a physical attack on anyone else present, pure and simple. It would be wrong - it was wrong - even when the majority of people smoked. The difference now is, the non-smokers have the power to protect themselves.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:18 PM

You don't get secondary "guitar-playing, keeping hens, jogging, writing down the numbers on the front of locomotives..." Smoking is different, as has been pointed out repeatedly by several people. It involves putting smoke in the eyes and lungs of other people in the room. A similar effect can be had by setting fire to a paper handkerchief in an ashtray, but for some reason people tend not to do that too often.

If people want to take a quick nicotine fix, use snuff. If they want to blow smoke around, do it outdoors.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,patriot1314
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:32 PM

mmmmmmm...... strange!
I don't recall saying I was a smoker, I'm maybe just tolerant.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM

McGrath: I am reasonably familiar by now with the "secondary smoking" argument, thought why the same principle doesnt apply to cars I havent quite figured out. My point was purely about kendall's argument, that if 75% of people dont do something, it should be banned. That, to my way of thinking, is not the cornerstone of democracy.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:06 PM

I was brought up to believe that "freedom" meant the right to do what you liked as long as it didn't affect anybody else. Acts like smoking impact upon others so my right to smoke must be modified by their right not to smoke. Where the majority do not smoke then my right to smoke must become subservient to their right not to smoke.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:24 PM

Perfectly true, and I quite agree that was a weak argument for him to have put up, and it deserve to be put down.

But the distinction I was making is not a weak argument. Smoking in a room does interfere with the enjoyment of other people, and the evidence is that it also threatens their health.

Even if the smokers were in a majority, that applies - and that is the logic behind the Irish Supreme Court decision that resulted in the ban on smoking in Irish pubs, because it centred on the right of the person serving the drinks not to have to breathe other people's smoke smoke in his or her place of work.

The analogy with car fumes is a valid one, and legal restrictions on car emissions already go some way towards meeting it. In time they should go a lot further. However I suspect that there are relatively few closed rooms where you will find an internal combustion engine being operated - and there's probably a law against it already.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

Well (and admirably moderately) spoken McGrath! Wish I had your self-control. Respect!
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM

Greg, are you missing my point on purpose? Ok, let me be more specific; 75% of us don't smoke. Why? because it is expensive, stupid and potentially fatal. I dare say those of us who don't smoke don't want to smell the stench of those who do, not to mention the danger of having to breathe their toxic fumes.
All that crap about hens etc. is nothing but another "Red herring"

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: PennyBlack
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM

I have more problems with my breathing problems when around strong perfumes than smoke - but then it's a big world and I don't mind sharing it with my fellow humans.