BS: UFOs do not exist!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 04 - 03:31 AM

LittleHawk has a point - why would they want this planet anyway? If they do invade, it will probably be when we've figured out how to live in peace. Why would aliens want to get involved in this shit? They are probably much more afraid of us than we are of them.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:46 PM

Exactly, Bill. They obviously could reveal themselves to absolutely EVERYONE, but they don't! That tells me something very interesting.

1.They don't want to reveal themselves to everybody...or

2. They don't need to...or

3. They don't care if we know whether they're there or not...or

4. They would prefer that most of us didn't know....or

5. They figure we're not ready yet...or

6. They think it would be irresponsible...or

7. They are preparing us be degrees...or

8. They respect us enough to wait until we and our governments are willing and ready to meet them...or...

It's absolutely fascinating, and it indicates that they have not come with the kind of agenda that is typical of us at all. That is very significant.

Think how our typical agenda would seem to a colony of fairly intelligent monkeys. They wouldn't understand us at all. I suspect the aliesn are that far beyond us and that much different in their thinking, and that they have excellent reasons for limiting contact with us at this time.

I'll tell you something, Bill. Human beings are dangerous. If I were coming here from somewhere else I'd be damned careful how I approached the people on this planet. It's a jungle out there. :-) And I don't mean in space, I mean right here on Earth.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:30 PM

"... the whole area would be sealed off faster..." ....but if they were clever and determined aliens, who were now ready to show themselves to EVERYBODY, instead of the lucky "hundreds of people", of which you were a chosen member, they could easily defeat any attempt at censorship, nicht wahr?

BTW--I saw the video today of the latest 'sighting' over Mexico...lights, in formation...blurry sets of 4, 'some' of which got a radar ping...*shrug*
   I don't know what to say about the possibility of li'l 'ol me getting one of the rare "up close & personal" encounters BEFORE they do the big show...I'd like to think I'd say "...well, THAT was interesting! I wonder what it was?" .....rather than "wow, what funny looking shapes and lights---it MUST be visitors from the stars"

I guess it would depend on how clear it all was and what they did...and whether I was alone...and whether I'd had anything to drink,,,etc.

(did you ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land?"...my hero in the book was what they called a "fair witness"...a guy trained to observe and report, but not speculate, for legal proceedings. I'd try to report any personal sighting/encounter with that model in mind.)

(Did YOU ever wonder why you haven't seen more?...Why DO a few folks see lots, and most people see nothing? 'Taint fair!)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:23 PM

If they did, Bill, the whole area would be sealed off faster than you can say "Oh, shit!" and you would NOT hear about it on the evening news.

And you said, "The Tahitians and New Guineans could see and touch the Europeans, and did...and got diseases from them."

Uh-huh. Right.

And the available info that is out there right now suggests that hundreds of people have had actual encounters with, and touched alien visitors, and some have gotten sick from contact with alien technology...but you are not one of those people...and you don't have direct proof of it...so why would the real experiences of other people serve to convince you of anything...unless it simultaneously happened to so many millions of people all over the whole World that there was simply no way of denying it or covering it up?

That is the ONLY thing, short of an official announcement by ABC, CBS, and NBC that will ever convince you, Bill, as far as I can see. Although, I guess an encounter of your own might. :-) But then, Bill, you would have to contend with people like yourself who did not consider your anecdote to be convincing proof of anything.

And, boy, would you ever get frustrated with them! :-) You'd probably just give up after awhile and not talk about it anymore. Ever try to convince a dog that he'd be better off not to overeat? He won't listen, and he won't thank you for trying to help him.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:10 PM

The Tahitians and New Guineans could see and touch the Europeans, and did...and got diseases from them. We see lights and funny images on radar which have, as Wolfgang notes, other possible explanations.. ...(yes, yes, and a few puzzling pictures)...

It's all worth investigating...etc, etc...but I sure wish those smart aliens would decide poor Bill & Wolfgang have been teased long enough *grin*...and park a BIG saucer right on the Mall in Wash DC!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:24 PM

It works exactly the same way in both directions, Wolfgang. If you debunk UFOs you will be stridently attacked by those who don't debunk them...if you believe in alien vehicles you will be equally stridently attacked by those who don't. Which type of attack bothers you the most depends entirely on which opinion you favour. :-) People have very strong emotions on this issue, because if it is true that we have space visitors it would be the most vital single matter now confronting humanity, along with a few others like:

nuclear armaments and other deadly WMD's
the ecological situation
the energy supply
war and peace (and terrorism)
overpopulation
food supply
water supply

You see, if we ARE experiencing visitations from more developed and advanced races of beings then it would have the potential to affect absolutely everything on this planet. That makes it damned important. That means that if you believe such visits are occuring, you get pretty upset at the notion of a coverup or a denial of same...because it would amount to a massive betrayal of humanity by their rulers.

Not that we haven't already been betrayed in a number of other ways... :-)

You are not one of the strident debunkers that I was alluding to. I find you balanced and sensible in your statements.

I have myself suggested that some, possibly all unexplained UFO sightings could be of secret government vehicles made on Earth. But I doubt it, that's all. It seems more likely to me that they are alien vehicles that are being seen. I don't think the government would be so arbitrarily reckless or intrusive with its own secret vehicles. It would hide them far better.

I think we are roughly in the position of Tahitians or New Guineans when the first Europeans were arriving on sailing ships...only the visitors in this case have far more subtle interests than acquiring land, gold, and empire. Thank God for that. We would be in very big trouble indeed if everyone out there in the Universe was as crass and materialistic as we are.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:02 PM

The Brazil UFOs of 1958 are really a good opportunity to learn something new:

a site with links to papers studying this case

But be careful, those only interested in one particular idea might be disappointed.

Anyone who suggests that UFOs are anything but alien spacecraft soon finds out how it feels to be taken apart by a pack of flesh-ripping religious weasels.
(Peter Brookesmith, Fortean Times, May, 2000)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:37 PM

Clearly the Mexicans are seeing objects that are not light effects, but solid, intelligently maneuvering vehicles, both by day and by night. Since their media is not controlled (or unduly influenced) in regards to how it deals with that situation, they are drawing the obvious conclusions that we have visitors. This is good.

The CIA, the USAF, the White House, the Pentagon, and the FBI decided in the late '40's that it would be best to deal with sightings of alien or unexplained flying vehicles in the following fashion: deny them outright, explain them away somehow to the public, or ridicule the ordinary people who reported them. They decided this because they honestly believed that it was the best way to protect (a)the public and (b) themselves!!! from a very embarassing and potentially disastrous situation. Namely:

1. American airspace was being entered at will by unknown vehicles for unknown purposes....those vehicles might be Russian (very scary thought in the late 40's when the Cold War was ramping up and paranoia was already extreme...or they might be extraterrestrial...even more scary thought. If they were extraterrestrial, were they "communist" or potential friends of the "Commies"! (Yeah, it sounds ridiculous, but it didn't to the Cold Warriors in the 40's and 50's, believe me.)

2. The Air Force seemed to have no effective means of shooting down or controlling those vehicles or preventing them violating American air space.

3. The unknowns might be abducting American citizens, again for unknown purposes, and they might be planning a full scale invasion.

4. The Army, Navy, and Air Force apparently had no weapons or systems capable of doing much, if anything, about it.

5. If the public were to realize the helplessness of the government and armed forces regarding the unknown visitors it would possibly cause a general panic, and certainly cause a tremendous loss of public confidence in their military and political leaders.

6. Accordingly, it was deemed absolutely vital to keep wraps on the whole business until the government and military found a way to re-establish control over their own airspace.

They have so far failed to do that...56 years later!

Now if you tell one lie, you must soon tell more lies to cover that one. If you tell a thousand lies, you must tell 10,000 more to cover those...and so it goes. The longer you lie, the more catastrophic is the loss of prestige and authority when you finally admit publicly to those lies.

And that is why the lid is kept so tightly on this whole affair by the government, the military, the science community, and the media.

Perfectly sincere and well-intentioned people have been convinced that they are protecting the public by lying to them. Other perfectly sincere people have simply bought the official line that there are no alien vehicles. Most of those who know better, and are in high postions are keeping their mouths shut about it, partly for their own safety.

That is very unfortunate.

The Mexicans are not subject to the same controls in regards to this matter, so in that respect (if not in some others) they are a freer society than the USA or Canada.

It might be of interest to some that the President of Brazil in 1958 stated publicly (on Feb 21/58) that daylight photos taken of several flying saucer type vehicles by Brazilian Navy personnel on Jan 6/58 were legitimate and authentic. The photos were taken by the Brazilian sailors and immediately afterward they were developed in the ship's darkroom with the Captain Alberto Bacellar witnessing the whole process to ensure that it was done without tampering. The ship was the Almirante Saldanha. 48 seamen, the ship's captain, and some civilian observers all saw the UFOs and considered them to be alien vehicles of some kind.

This was a rare case of a head of state and a Naval authority breaking the code of silence that has effectively been established over much of the World's media regarding such incidents.

Most people will easily believe or not believe whatever they are told to believe or not believe by the existing authorities. They will ignore what the media ignores. They will repeat what the media says. In that manner a coverup is maintained through the same old methods...deny, explain away, and ridicule.

Now, someone whose sense of emotional security depends on ridiculing me for saying such disturbing things will probably show up here on this thread shortly to post...and...Yeah...it's easy to debunk...Just yell words like "Nonsense! Balderdash! Tripe! Bullshit!" and go on ignoring the enormous backlog of existing evidence of UFO's and the eyewitness reports of hundreds of thousands of people in countries not quite as well controlled as your own...

Or...stop being afraid, for heaven's sake! It's an opportunity for profound change and advancement of the whole human race, not a threat to your existence. If it were any threat, we would have been conquered long ago.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:34 PM

I've seen parts of the video and the first thing that made me wonder is that these lights move like locked to each other. They have no velocity relative to each other, for quite a long time, but move together.

That reminds the famous Capitol/capital UFOs detected over Washington in 1952 (also 11 in some reports). Later it had been detected that these lights mirrored the formation of street lights down on the ground.

Under certain weather conditions (temperature inversion weather) pockets of warm air can lead to signals detectable by radar, but not by the eye.

Listing possibilities is not an explanation yet, but I'd start with looking at the weather conditions at the time of the sighting (in March) and would look for earthly sources of light mirroring the stable pattern of celestial lights.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:38 PM

Here's one:http://www.rense.com/general52/udo.htm

Some other data: http://www.ufoarea.com/events_mexico.html

No hard information, though...


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:08 PM

Chief Chaos - When? Do you have an article about this?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:51 PM

Almost hate to bring this one back but Mexican Air Force pilots on routine patrol filmed 11 UFOs with infrared cameras.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:28 AM

Thanks, Bill! You are right on, man. :-) Thanks to Ellenpoly too.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:23 AM

My door is always open...to those who have the key.

Fondly,
William Shatner, still channeling through Ellenpoly though she said she'd really like it if I'd find someone else for a while. Any takers?

(PS-Of course you are quite right, Little Hawk. But then we've had our visual receptors on you for a long time. Keep up the good work...WS)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:13 AM

There is simply no use in making contact with a paranoid bunch of tribal governments who are busily engaged in building massive armaments, spying on each other, fighting pointless wars, and attempting to dominate the planet. Such people are not worth contacting, because they are dangerous and untrustworthy in the extreme. They are violent criminals.

For that reason, the visitors stopped trying to deal directly with our governments about 5 decades ago, and are instead dealing with private individuals who are much more receptive and less dangerous anyway.

The people on this planet are on average considerably superior in a moral sense to the governmental structures that rule over them. They deserve better. The trouble is, there are no mechanisms in place allowing the people to substantially alter the situation of their corrupt governments. Therefore we must each deal with our individual circumstances in the best way we can.

The public is ready for open alien contact. The government, military, and scientific elites are NOT ready for it, and they are making every effort to conceal it, block it, and misinform people.

As long as that situation endures, contact will be discreet and unofficial, and made with private individuals where and when it is appropriate and workable.

Our governments operate by force and coercion and deception. Our visitors don't, because they are of good intention.

If they were of bad intention we would have been conquered very quickly, and it would probably have happened in the late 40's.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:31 AM

The night sky is full of stars, and every one of them is a sun.
There are more that you can't see than there are that you can.
The day sky is similarly loaded with suns but you can't see them because of the light from our sun.
It is a pretty wild sort of a theory suggesting that none of them support planets with life, and an equally unlikely suggestion that none of that life is more intelligent and advanced than ours.
Typical human arrogance.
It hasn't even been proven to my satisfaction that we (humans) are the most intelligent creatures on this planet, let alone anywhere else.
Of course there are UFOs. They are smarter than us. They know better than to try to make contact.

John

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,HEAD OF THE CIA
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 04:22 AM

Now Look here I told to stop it.




Please.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:23 PM

Look here - click on the View : Source button in your browser. It uses the HTML for 'font = color' command.

There are also several Mudcat threads on HTML tricks.

But Ellenpolly, you have only asked that question for the benefit of others, haven't you, since we can communicate telepathically.

We're both telepathetic, you know ;-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:09 PM

Hey fooolestroupe, before you take off for galaxies unknown, how do you do that neat little yellow writing? Is it only limited to your species, or can you share??

Yours sincerely,
William Shatner still channeling through Ellenpoly, though she's complaining of haemmorhoids because of me.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:47 AM

Oh Rubbish!

The _REAL_ CIA would want you all to keep rabbiting on, cause you know ...


we can keep better tabs on you thatway...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,HEAD OF THE CIA
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:18 AM

Okay You have had you fun now The thread is officialy CLOSED due to National Security .
Agents will be calling at addresses of all who have posted on this site and have their Computers and any other documents relating to this confiscated by order of the Government of the US of A.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:16 AM

Well actually, Little Hawk,

I notice that we are now only one message behind the the count of the thread "In every thread someone has to be last!", so, no, don't start a new thread, just let 'er rip...

:-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:06 AM

I take it this means you want us to start a different UFO thread?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:04 AM

zzxdas.. .alk######nb.. l;zdlknvnc...

[This channel closed]

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:39 AM

Yes, you're right. We DID take that poor abused goat. If you earthlings can't even treat your four legged friends well enough not to have them come bleating to us for rescue (and yes, the cats are safe now as well- we've provided them with invisible "brucie-be-gone" shields) how in the name of Alpha Centuri can you expect us to want to sit down with you folks and party?

PS-I'll still be checking in this thread. I see that Foolstroupe has also asked for a transfer to another galaxy far far away, and his request is being held in a cue.)

Yours channeling again through Ellenpoly, William Shatner

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:14 AM

Well Foolestroupe, I am home but I have to tell you about my experience tonight.
I am convinced I met an alien child tonight.
His brain capacity met more than that of a dolphins. He was a human with the head size of abnormal. He was adopted.
He has always thought he was something of an abnormal. He thanked me for being so blunt and telling him he was either an alien child or an offspring of a dolphin.
His friends over-heard the conversation and came up to us making obsene dolphin cries, but that is okay, because they instict=ivly knew he was beyond a so called normal.
I was blown away that he told me he had always thought he was of a different spiecies.
Looking at this man you all would have came to the same conclusion. I just had the balls to talk to him openly about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 02:02 AM

Of all the threads I have started (especially with most of the others mostly being on serious musical topice!), this is now the longest!

Right! That's it! I've had enough! Everybody go home!

What! They're still here!

Right! I'm off!

Turn the lights out when you leave!

Bye!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:41 AM

Amos - earlier in the thread I said UFO's do exist and described what I had seen. What I failed to mention was that I saw another UFO, at a later date in the same vicinity. (Between Vashon Island, Wash. and the Mainland, near Bremerton). Bremerton is a Naval base.

This time I was not alone. It was an entirely different sighting. This time it was night. My husband and I and his friend were listening to music when I spotted what I thought to be lightning. We rushed to the porch to watch.

From behind a range of hills, a strobe of light was emanating. The colours were concentric circles of every colour in the rainbow and they were pulsing. Nobody lived over there! It was acres and acres of forests and hills.

Lots of people saw that one. They tried to tell us it was the Northern Lights but NO..........it was light from a central energy source sitting behind the hill. I've seen Northern Lights before, they are never so uniform and precise as what we saw.

I'm not so sure about aliens, though. Never seen em.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM

There was some Guest trying like hell to get my goat the other day, Bruce, and even he/she couldn't find it! :-) I think my goat has been abducted by aliens!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:48 PM

brucie, you may find it in the Vladimir the Inhaler thread.. or at least, you may find someone looking for it there..

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:22 PM

To heck with the Loch Ness Monster. Have you seen Little Hawk's goat?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 03:55 PM

Well, that's interesting. What exactly did you see? And when?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Gypsyfree
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Never seen a UFO, but I have seen the Loch Ness Monster.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM

The issue I would underscore on this nebulous front is space itself. Look at it and you see it homogenously spreading outward indefinitely, a sort of matt against which all things may be and move. It is easy to fall in to the belief, since it looks this way in all directions and all the time, that we, too are in space in the same way that pebbles are, or galaxies.

But the problem is that it isn't easy to define space or explain what brings it about, or how it is related to energy at a fundamental level. Michelson-Morley appeared to demonstrate that it is not energetic in the sense that light is; but on the other hand it is not evanescent Truth. So what the fuck is it? Answer that and you will be on the threshold of a generation of free energy, instantaneous translocation, quality telepathy and gawd-knows-wot-all. But it needs an answer that is qualitative, not just a mess of measurings.

I believe that space is a function of "life viewing asserted dimensions", but that may be wrong.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

Instead of getting bogged down on just the speed of light...I would like to point out a possible reason that light is relativistic in space. It exists in space time and space time is in motion. We tend to think of it as expansion.

Relativism allows for an unfolding of spacetime that at first is very compressed at a singularity (lots of space time in a small area)

We can say the universe is expanding or you can think of an unfolding of spacetime in which expansion is only a point of view since things could just as well be shrinking to fit the unfolding of more space time.

Think of the universe as a balloon. The ballon is not expanding to an external observer. However, to an internal observer, the ballon is expanding. Things are getting farther and farther away. However, in reality, things are just getting "smaller" because the expansion is caused by the unwrapping of space-time. In other words: wrapped space-time looks like unwrapped one and instead of it being streching the fabric of space-time, it is actually unfolding.

Another way of seeing it... as I tried to insinuate in the black hole thread... We are in a "black hole" inside another universe. This black hole had a singularity in its centre. The space-time was extremely folded (lots of space-time in a tiny bit of "space"). The singularity in this black hole exploded and it started to expand. For an external observer the black hole is not expanding. For an internal observer, the space-time is unfolding and expanding. We have the illusion that it is expanding into nothing.

This would result in a new kind of evolution: from stars to new universes.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 10:35 AM

Amos,

I will address your remark above tonight or tomorrow. We disagree. But, because I know you are a Shatner fan I will not be rude. (Sorry, pressed for time right now.)

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:15 AM

I love this thread! I plan to take it with me when I leave this planet. It will give the folks back home such a good giggle. Thanks in advance, and do keep it up, as I now have Cosmic Broadband (MUCH faster than the speed of light, by the by) and will be checking in periodically...

Fond Regards,

William Shatner (being graciously channeled through Ellenpoly)..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM

Another post for the same point:

The Newtonian addition of velocities considered valid for many centuries and explained above by CC is incorrect. Period. However, for velocities small compared to the velocity of light the wrong old theory and the not yet found wrong new theory Special theory of relativity come to for all practical purposes identical predictions.

At speeds closer to the speed of light both theories come to different predictions. Some explanations above what happens when light leaves a body that is already moving at very high speed are wrong (as already pointed out by Andres). The light always leaves the body with light speed. So when a body moves with 200,000 km/s an observer on the body will see the light leave with 300,000 km/s. However, a stationary observer outside of the body will see the light travel not with 500,000 km/s, but with 300,000 km/s.

The math behind that is very easy, we had it in my very first physics course. In the language of math it is beautifully clear and easy, when translated into normal language it becomes unbelievable. To paraphrase a scientist (I don't find the citation):

If you claim that you understand it you have not really understood it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 07:03 AM

Whether the speed of light slowed down, stayed unchanged or speeded up depends upon your frame of reference(s).

But in my frame of reference(s), the speed of light is a Constant.
This is to make the work of Physics simpler at the expense of curved Space, as Nothing is free in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:16 AM

This is an excellent, though lengthy explanation of the Michelson-Morley Experiment which destroyed the theory of the existence of an ether. Light was supposed to move immersed in that ether, and its speed would have been relative to it: Michelson-Morley Experiment

If you make a search on the phrase "front of a tank", you will see a good explanation of independence of the light speed respect to the source of emmission.

According to general relativity, at speeds near the speed of light, not only the mass tends to infinite, but also time tends to lenghten, and space tends to SHRINK ! At a reasonable speed, it would not be bad to gain some pounds but be able to live longer and travel further. At least, Nature gives as a hint.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:54 AM

Rucie,

There's no vested interest in avoiding a theory that explains redshift and also allows for FTL, but it hasn't surfaced yet, as far as I know. So far, the General Theory has been born out by measurements.

There may be some close-minded individuals who can't get their wits around a nw theory, and their may be geneuine analysts who find flaws in it, but I dobn't think vested interests is a fair accusation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:15 AM

No, light travels at app. 300,000 km/sec in a vacuum. That is its speed, period. If it leaves from an object that is travelling at 200,000 km/sec, light will only thavel another 100,000 km/sec faster than that. That is light's constant 'speed'. If the object were travelling at 300,000 km/sec already, then the light wouldn't 'leave' the object, because it would already be travelling at its speed. Basically, no more, no less. However, that's only what traditional science would have us believe. That is starting to be challenged now, because some scientists are questioning WHY everything has to be 'made' to fit inside the relativity/big bang box. Vested interest tends to shut them out and shut them down.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 12:00 AM

CC:

No -- it is traveling from the front of the car outward at less than c due to being inside atmosphere and the EMF field of the earth, I expect. There is an apparency from te observer on the side of the road that it should be the car's velocity plus c, but at least according to Einstinian equations the closer to c, the greater the mass.

I could be wrong about that, and I am only a confused amateur.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 11:35 PM

Okay before I drag out an old question I should let you know that according to science light in the form of protons has mass.
Anything which is inside another object which is traveling is traveling at the speed of the object in which it is traveling.
So, given the theory (and I stress theory) that nothing can travel faster than light, what happens when you turn on a moving car's headlights? Is the light, in the form of protons having mass, traveling at the speed of light + the speed of the moving car? Is it therefore traveling at past the speed of itself?

I know this sounds like a stupid question but I've never heard a satisfactory answer to this.

Also, in today's paper, scientists have postulated that the presence of a large body in space "warps" space and time around it. If this "warping" can be accomplished by a simple gravitical body could we not find a way to generate a field to "warp" space and time allowing an alternative to straight forward space travel?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:34 PM

brucie...it's a pretty tricky thing to pin down. Even if it were discovered that it did, the idea of moving solid matter 'real durn fast' has some problems. All I personally expect is to maybe finally hear some 'signal' detected that has been going for thousands of years.

from this page
"Strictly speaking, gravity is not a "force" in general relativity, and a description in terms of speed and direction can be tricky"

also, a newer story... 'speed' of gravity measured

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:02 PM

It was mentioned above that nothing exceeds the speed of light. That may turn out to be false. Science suspects that gravity does. The problem has been fitting that notion into a unified field theory. We'll see. (That was pretty good, and entirely by accident.)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:47 AM

Chief, many species migrate easily when forced by a change in their habitats. The investigators did reproduce the phenomena just leaving dead animals for some nights. They planted cameras and spent some cold nights observing, and could see the mice coming and doing their macabre job. The problem turns again to WHOM you trust, Universities or Ufologists. This time the FBI, CIA, RAF, USAF, did not show up. (OH,NO, they didn't send the mice! :))

Chief, LH, AMos: that's what I like to see, creative imagination. What will happen if they really come to visit us? And what if we go to their place? Or more realistically, what if we can communicate? Will we change our minds?

Un abrazo,
Andrés
(I can send to you an alpaca shawl, BTW)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:32 PM

...and THAT Alpaca was 'average'...do a Google 'images' search and the Alpaca equivilents of Playboy will entice you to...Lord knows what! soft, cuddly, cute...the original sweater girl! *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:27 PM

ermmm - isn't that a MALE alpaca?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Yeah, something like that. Any part of a hologram contains the entire image. The Universe may be like that too. All in One, and One in all. If you know how to move according to its functioning you can instantly be anywhere you want to focus on. Matter of fact, that's how thought works, and that's how the soul travels...when it chooses to.

- LH