BS: UFOs do not exist!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:48 PM

Well, this thread has gone from 'UFOs of alien origin might exist' from 'don't be so silly'. That's something, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:41 PM

Yeah. ;-) And just think if we got EVERYTHING mysterious answered in a final and conclusive manner!

What the heck would we all do after that? It could get kind of dull.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:16 PM

naawww,LH...I don't take it personally. We juggle this on a sorta regular basis. I have no interest in making a serious hobby of debunking folks theories....just in being sure all points of view are represented and showing why it's risky to take too big of a leap.

Like Don F., I feel no particular need to HAVE answers to every mystery. It would be nice to have some of the more interesting ones 'solved', but with so many 'what ifs' involved, I ain't gonna make any silly bets.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:15 PM

Sounds sensible to me, Ron. What you said, I mean.

I am also puzzled by people who simply MUST have a definite "yes" or "no" answer for every darned thing under the sun that one might happen to mention. I don't know what their problem is, but it might be the fear of uncertainty itself, I suppose.

Another area of controversy that's quite interesting is the various tales and incidents involving what are purported to be Bigfoot or Yeti-type creatures. Most of those incidents have occurred in mountainous or heavily forested and remote areas.

They could be sightings of bears or other known animals. They could be sightings of something else, not yet confirmed. Some of them are surely hoaxes...but I doubt that all of them are.

And yet, I'm sure you can find a host of people who will simply INSIST that there's no truth to any of it and that there CAN'T be any truth to any of it! Where they get such rocklike faith in their blithe assumptions, I don't know...but it rivals the faith of born-again Christians or Islamic Jihadists, in that it is based on KNOWING something without benefit of any evidence, experiential or otherwise...but merely on the basis of hearsay, and personal preference. That's a form of religious faith, not an impartial or informed opinion about something.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:01 PM

I'm always a bit puzzled by the mental processes of those folks who cannot seem to live with unanswered questions.

I can certainly undestand the desire to have questions answered. But there are questions where we simply do not know the answers yet and have to be patient until such a time as the answer is forthcoming. And there are also questions, the answers to which it is doubtful that we will ever know.

Yet, there seems to be a certain percentage of the population whose mental processes are such that they can't tolerate an unanswered question and insist on providing one on the basis of their own predilection and prejudices. Once they have done so, based on no genuine evidence, they often insist that others agree with them and sometimes savagely denigrate those who either hold another hypothesis or who are willing to suspend judgment until further evidence is in.

Such is the nature of the UFO controversy.

During World War II, pilots, American, British, and German, flying over France and Germany, saw bright objects, described as looking like large balls of glowing gas, following them and seemingly pacing them on their missions. None of the forces, American, British, or German, knew what they were, and all three were apprehensive about them, fearing that they may be some enemy weapon, and were duly reported. During dogfights, these objects seemed to stand off and observe, but did not participate, so the combatants lost their fear of them. But they still had no idea of who or what they were. American pilots dubbed them "foo fighters" (even though they didn't fight). So–what or who were they?

Then, in 1947, there were the nine objects that private pilot Kenneth Arnold saw flying past Mount Rainier in Washington State. Arnold's description of them as "saucer-shaped" was picked up by the news media, and the term "flying saucer" was born. Arnold was a business man flying his private plane from Chehelis to Yakima in Washington State, and assumed that they were some new kind of jet aircraft. He had no reason to perpetrate a hoax, and merely reported what he had observed. So—what did Arnold see?

I'm not about to go through the whole list of presumed sightings (!!). Some of the later ones—indeed, the vast majority of them—are blatant hoaxes and publicity stunts. But there are some—enough—to raise legitimate questions.

For example, a fellow I knew back in the mid-Fifties by the name of Maury Stilwell. Maury had worked at the White Sands Proving Ground (now, White Sands Missile Range) testing German V-2 rockets that had been captured at the end of World War II (he knew Wernher von Braun), and later, testing the U. S. Navy's Viking rockets. Maury told me that after the first few launches, every time they had another test-launch, a couple of these "objects," which he described using terms that sounded like the American fighter pilots' descriptions of the "foo fighters," would appear, intercept the launched V-2 or Viking, and following it up, apparently pacing it and observing it closely. He said that "whatever the hell they were, they picked them up on radar and other missile tracking gear, so we weren't just 'seeing things.' They were really there. And nobody knew what they were!"

And Maury was no flake. He was a trained observer. And you know that "rocket scientist" it doesn't take to understand something? Well, Maury was a rocket scientist.

I've had other people tell me that they've seen UFOs, but only a couple of them were 1) credible stories told by b) credible people. Usually in the nature of "I saw this thing, and I don't know what the hell it was!"

Have I ever seen a UFO myself? Only what I described in a post above. Nothing I would be willing to assert was an alien spacecraft.

So I'm not going to write it all off as a collection of Froot-Loops on a rampage. Ninety-nine and forty-four one-hundredths percent of it, yes! If someone tries to tell me that he or she has met the Ambassador from Arcturus 12, that person will receive a well-deserved fish-eye unless they can provide incontrovertible proof of what they say. But I'm not about to write all of it off.

And as to the possibility of life on other planets and possibility of extraterrestrials visiting earth, let me refer you to what I posted above. Anyone who categorically denies this possibility simply doesn't know enough science (astronomy, biology) to know what they're talking about.

I'd like to know. But my curiousity is not such that I have to leap to some unfounded conclusion and then defend it with my life.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 01:34 PM

Oh, and that wasn't a swipe at you, Bill. Just thought I'd better add that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 01:26 PM

No problem, Bill. ;-) I merely said that I think it's "very probable", based on my own personal experience and my knowledge of many other people's stated accounts of their experiences, etc...

That doesn't mean that you or someone else should necessarily think it's very probable. We all have our own individual outlook when it comes to thinking about stuff like that.

When someone is deeply interested in a subject, they tend to hunt out a lot of information...and they more they find, the more it tends to support their interest. That's natural. Most people who are not inclined to believe in something also do not go looking for much evidence regarding it. Thus their habit of usually ignoring it supports their chosen disbelief.

(There is, however, the occasional quite rare person who becomes a professional debunker of such things as AFOs...and even makes a career out of it. If so, he WILL search out a lot of info on the subject, simply for the joy of attacking it and proving he's right, dead right...and the believers are all wrong. Such people are interesting examples of a certain psychological condition...but I'm not going to go into that.)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 12:33 PM

It's interesting to see the logic from people who poo-poo UFOs (meaning alien spacecraft as in 'out of this world') yet argue that statistically there must be intelligent life elsewhere because there are gazillions of stars, many of which have plentes, and ipso facto. Folks, the same logic should then hold for at least some of those folks to be able to travel. Stats work in lots of directions.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 12:29 PM

The skull is due to head rapping with cloth from childhood.
This is how they raised little demogoges that would be the next generation of aristocrats. Extreme today even next to body piercing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 11:36 AM

Art, art, art. But then those guys and gals were always strange . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 11:31 AM

LH...buried in the middle of your post above is: "... as I think is very probable,..."

and what a discussion we could have over just that qualifying phrase.

I can't even imagine how to assign degrees of probability to such an idea. "very"? "kinda"? "extremely"?

There are other possible ways to explain why sane, honest, responsible people 'see' UFOs, AFOs and such...and why some report being abducted by them...etc. Since we are still trying to cope with many thousands of sightings and NO clear pictures or hard evidence, I'd think it would behoove us to investigate a bit harder what we can study...ourselves. I don't mean we should quit looking for hard evidence of AFOs, just that we need to be more open to the 'possibility' that our very complex minds can create false or altered memories in some cases.
We KNOW this does happen...ask any one who has interviewed 6 witnesses to the same traffic accident....or who has had an intense dream that felt 'real'..(I have had two)
I don't mean to denigrate the seemingly clear, intense memories of honest people who are trying to cope with real experiences....but there ARE several possible explanations for most of them, including "it was real, but made here on Earth".
It is quite a jump to say, "I saw it, it didn't fit patterns I am familiar with, therefore I will posit creatures who can violate the laws of physics as we know them, and who 'found' us in a universe of trillions of galaxies, and are able to keep us from really identifying them."
   Yeah..I have to admit...that IS one possibility. *shrug* I just think Occam's Razor leads me...so far...in other directions.

YMMV

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:27 AM

I can't prove that a specific thing does not exist, no. ;-) Nor can you. We can simply have opinions about it regarding its probability of existing, correct? And those opinions need some backing up, hopefully.

After one has seen a given thing...any given thing...one tends to feel that the probability of it existing has gone way, way up, to say the least. One who has not seen it, however, simply has his old opinion to fall back on, doesn't he? And that's all he has. His old opinion is quite satisfying for him, but perhaps not for someone else. That's how it is with opinions. They're highly individual.

I have as yet met no one who has seen or who claims to have seen most of your unevidenced examples. Not one person. They're amusing! ;-) But since I've met absolutely no one who claims to have seen:

"elves or orcs"..."bears that talk to little boys and get their heads stuck in jars of honey"..."an elephant's trunk that didn't develop because a child full of insatiable curtiosity got his nose stretched by a crocodile on the banks of the great grey-green greasy Limpopo River" or "a bogey under the bed".....

And I mean, NO one I've ever known has claimed to have seen those things...because of that, I'm not very impressed at the probability of any of those things existing. Clear?

On the other hand, I am quite impressed at the probability of things existing which literally thousands or by this time hundreds of thousands of people claim to have seen, including Jimmy Carter, a former minister of the Canadian defence establishment, professional pilots, and leaders of various other countries, indeed professionals from every walk of life, including some scientists, plus many, many ordinary people I've met personally....now THAT impresses me as imbuing the idea with a great deal of probability! See what I mean.

It is not in the same category as your Elves, Orcs, Winnie-the-Pooh, and other such fanciful stuff which is found only, I think, in entertaining books of fiction....so I can only wonder why you would even bother bringing up such unlikely and flimsy examples to back an argument?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 06:09 AM

But what makes you absolutely certain that there ARE no AFOs visiting Earth...or that there ARE no Angels visiting Earth for that matter?

Can you prove that elves don't exist, or orcs? That bears don't talk to little boys and get their heads stuck in jars of honey? That the elephant's trunk didn't develop because a child full of satiable curtiosity got his nose stretched by a crocodile on the banks of the great grey-green greasy Limpopo River? That there ISN'T a bogey under the bed?

So why pick a few unevidenced things to believe in, out of all the wonderful possibilities?

As has been said before, whether UFOs exist or not, they can't land and we can't know what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 05:22 AM

Yes, the interpretation is the most interesting part.

But what makes you absolutely certain that there ARE no AFOs visiting Earth...or that there ARE no Angels visiting Earth for that matter? ;-) From what does your faith that there are none of these derive? It's mere assumption on your part.

I've known cases of modern people who saw UFOs (AFOs, I mean, in all likelihood) AND who have seen an Angel or Angels...and they made no common connection whatsoever between those separate phenomena. That is, they were fully aware that they were observing 2 utterly different phenomena on different occasions...one of a technological sort, the other of a spiritual sort.

So what accounts for the complete difference in their interpretations of the separate phenomena? Not their beliefs...but the actual completely obvious differences IN those phenomena.

Now, when I saw what I certainly took to be AFOs (in all probability, I mean) (or possibly they were secret military craft...but I doubt it)...at that time I had NO belief in AFOs at all. My view on that, however, changed radically following that experience.

I know people who've seen other things that THEY had no belief in at all...until having a direct encounter. Some of those things were spiritual phenomena. Some were AFOs (technological phenomena of an apparently alien sort) A complete disbeliever in spiritual phenomena or in AFOs can have his viewpoint changed forever after such an experience.

If there were AFOs visiting the Earth in pre-technological times, as I think is very probable, then it is not surprising that people did not interpret them on a technological basis at that time! ;-) They had no prior technological experience of their own which would have allowed them to even think in those terms. So naturally, they usually interpreted what they saw on a spiritual basis...thinking they were seeing gods, devils, angels, demons, spirits, sky chariots, or whatever they could relate to. Thus, if they HAD seen a high-technology vehicle they would either have been completely baffled and unable to explain it in any way...or they would have given it a spiritual explanation of some kind...because those were the terms of reference that they were accustomed to.

We are now able to come up easily with both spiritual AND technological theories about some of the unusual things we see...and we do...depending on WHAT we see...and how we interpret it. Seeing an Angel would, I think, be an utterly different experience from seeing a saucer-shaped, hovering, obviously high-tech vehicle. The first would be seen as a spiritual being. The second would be seen as an intelligently created flying machine making maneuvers, probably under the control of a pilot or crew.

There would be no difficulty whatever for the modern observer in distinguishing the two as very different phenomena.

There is no particular reason why you should be 100% sure that there are no such phenomena, just because you yourself haven't seen them yet. ;-)

Nothing, that is, except blind faith in what you already believe and don't believe about reality...based on your own necessarily quite limited experience, and based on the commonly stated views of most of the official authority figures of your time (who first of all don't know everything...and secondly don't always tell us everything either). All of us have, necessarily, quite limited personal experience to fall back on. That's a fact. Still, we have our opinions, don't we? How inflexible they are is an individual matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 04:44 AM

Surely a discussion on UFOs as a folkloric phenomenon would be more useful / interesting / appropriate here than another slanging match on the ETH (Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis)? Of course there are no extra-terrestrials visiting Earth. Why? Because the experience & interpretation of UFOs is entirely subjective, rather like ghost & fairy-lore, albeit with a technological twist by way of added plausibility.

As with ghost & fairy-lore, there emerges a canonical conscensus by way of an objective framework on which to hang at least a measure of objective commonality. Thus does the folkloric nature of that commonality take on a life of its own, as can be seen with UFO-ETH community / culture. But make no mistake, it is the objective commonality that insists on the subjective experience (or at least its interpretation) and not the other way round.

I do not doubt individuals have experience of UFOs - likewise ghosts & fairies etc. if it comes to that; I know I certainly do, as do most other people I've talked to - but it is the interpretation of that experience that is the interesting thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:04 PM

Mr. Firth, you leave little ambiguity in your more lengthy explanation.

Brevity is seldom succinct.

I have had an unarticulated thought about UFOs for nearly 25 years.
I have entertained the notion that "they" may have more control over 4 dimesnsions than we and as a result "they" have seen beyond our time and come here now to survey and scan what we achieved prior to the coming planatary enviormental and human culture collapse.

Yeah I know plenty of yahoo wierdos have been saying some form of this since 1950. I just didn't want any one to hear me sound like a yahoo wierdo, at least regarding UFO's which was no small part of my career in the 80's.


As far as closed threads go, I am happy just to be able to find them in my trace file. I have no sinsull ax to grind.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 09:19 PM

I've spent some time reading a bit more of this thread. And, Peace, I'm not sure what you are objecting to in what I just posted, other than getting the impression from some of what you've posted, that you seem to think that science is no more authoritative than reading Tarot cards. Afraid I can't agree. Science certainly doesn't have all the answers, but it's far ahead of reading tea leaves. And it—like me—is always open to new date. Hence, self-correcting.

As far as life on other planets is concerned, I will deal with that in a moment. But since, in the not-too-far-distant future, we may very well be able to visit the planets of other stars (most of the science has already been done, now it is mainly a matter of engineering), why should we doubt—assuming that there may be life on other planets—that intelligent, technologically sophisticated extraterrestrials might be able to come here?

Whether or not they actually have is an entirely different matter. I didn't claim that they did or they didn't. I didn't claim anything, one way or another. I didn't say that I believe that UFOs—if they actually exist at all—are alien space craft, nor did I say that they are not. Clear enough? Mainly what I was pointing out is that an "Unidentified Flying Object" is unidentified, and until and unless it is identified, to claim that it is either an alien space craft or a weather balloon or a migrating pelican is pure and unsupported guesswork.

Then I went on to allow that, highly skeptical though I am, I am open to the idea that it is within the realm of possibility that, on extremely rare occasions, an Unidentified Flying Object might be—MIGHT be—an alien space craft.

I am acquainted with a couple of people who work in the Astrobiology Department at the University of Washington. Their work is primarily speculative, but to add some substance to their speculations, they do real study in the development of life in extreme conditions here on earth, such as the abundance of life surrounding volcanic vents in the oceans' floors—where the water temperature reaches as much as 700 degrees (impossible at sea level, but can occur in the kind of pressures that exist at those depths)—and the strange living creatures that draw their energy from heat from the vents rather than sunlight, which doesn't reach those ocean depths. The astrobiologists extrapolate what they find to extreme conditions that may very well exist on other planets. Their conclusion? That life is possible, at least on some other planets. Not that they know for certain that it exists. Or, if it does, on which planets, specifically. But that it is possible.

Amino acids and various other organic molecules (the same as those found here on earth) have been found in meteorites, indicating that the building blocks of life are spread throughout the universe. How did life start on earth? We're beginning to get a few clues about that. And in the process, we are learning that, given a wide range of conditions, there is no good reason to believe that life could not have develop on other planets as well.

A study of various aspects of astronomy (a subject that has interested me since I was about six years old) and what we know about the birth and life-spans of stars, and what becomes of the leftover "debris" after a star is born, indicates that there should be a mind-boggling number of planets out there. In fact, a main-sequence star, like our sun, that doesn't have a family of planets orbiting it should be the rare exception rather than the rule.

This is not just my hare-brained idea. Some pretty heavy-duty astronomers are currently systematically surveying nearby stars, looking for planets, and, difficult though it is, they're finding hundreds of them. How many of them are hosts to living creatures? How many of them might contain intelligent life? How many of them might contain intelligent, technological life?

Why should we be unique in a cosmos this huge? To believe that we are is hubris of monumental proportions!

Click HERE and scroll down. Or HERE. More of same HERE

Should anyone of a religious persuasion feel that the idea of life on other worlds is inconsistent what it says in Scripture, here is at least one Christian viewpoint:   CLICKY.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

Listen, folks...

I ain't gonna go reading thru 5 thousand posts to this thread to find the last time I was here but I just want to "refresh" my sighting of a real UFO...

I ain't gonna go into every detail but it was like 1971 and Lisa Hadley and I were... Forget that part...

We saw the sumabich and it weren't like reflections or swamp gas... It was a UFO...

BTW, when did they start makin' UFO's outta swamp gas???

Sheet fire, if they can take swamp gas and make UFO's outta it then why can't they take swamp gas and make cars outta it???

Any of you smarty-pants got an answer for that question??? Well, don't hurt yer heads 'casue they can't make cars outta swamp gas and guess what???

Give up???

They can't make UFO's outta the stuff either...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 07:42 PM

*shrug* some threads are closed because they were too contentious...some to stop spam....some just because they were old & repetitive. Joe will often reopen one if it seems useful.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 07:15 PM

Its funny that I could revive this old thread but the 2001 thread I started entitled

The US has lost the war...

this thread is closed.

ironic if not sad.

In China when deletions and censorship are imposed it is called being Harmonized.

This thread is harmonized.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:48 PM

Yeah, Don. ;-) "UFO" simply means unidentified flying object, and we've all seen hundreds of those by now, I'm sure...many of which were certainly not alien space vehicles...but some of which may have been.

That's why I have come to somewhat prefer designating certain more extraordinary sightings as far more likely to be "AFO"s (alien flying objects) than a variety of the other possibilities available.

Even if they were AFOs, however, they must remain UFOs for the time being...because we cannot identify them or get official recognition of them. Such things can only be positively identified after contact is made with the occupants.   Until such contact is not only made...but is openly and officially acknowledged by our governments...all UFOs, AFOs, and potentially likely AFOs will remain simply: UFOs.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:47 PM

I've watched Stealth aircraft flit and flutter behind Air Force 1.
I have also seen glowing orbs closely tailing large aircraft but a glowing orb is no proof of anything except its opaqely bright.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:12 PM

Wow..THIS thread again! (I'd forgotten I wrote some of those posts)

I pretty much agree with PoppaGator. I'd BET that out there somewhere there are other sentient beings, but I would NOT risk a dime that any of 'em know we are here or how to get to us.
   If there are any ETs watching, I sure hope they land on the White House lawn during my lifetime.

The Stealth aircraft were responsible for many sightings years ago...who knows what they are testing now?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:03 PM

A favorite book of mine is called Unconventional Flying Objects.

Eye witness accounts are inaccurate or totally false half of the time. I was once talked into seeing a light in the sky supposedly move instantly from point to point. But on the other hand I had 4 other sightings that would probably terrify most people.

The extraordinary claim needs extraordinary evidence. Maybe.
From what I have learned about Bush style proof and the Fox no spin truth, I have little faith in anythng regarding proof or lack of proof issuing from our military.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:49 PM

Maybe there are sentient beings from other planets able to travel through space and surrepticiuosly visit us. Maybe not.

Either way, I believe that the most likely true identity of any "unidentified flying object" is that of an aircraft that is new and experimental, developed under government sponsorship, and being kept secret from the public, at least for the tme being.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:24 PM

"But am I open to the idea that there are other civilizations out there? Most definitely."

That too may be something that is bovine droppings, etc. Wishful thinking on your part. Why make that assumption, Don? Have any other civilizations been in touch?

Sorry. I don't mean to pick at you, but when this topic comes up you are very quick to pick on it. Figured I'd be just as quick this time. No offense.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:09 PM

I haven't read this whole thread. I simply don't have that kind of time. But it appears to me that most people here are assuming that "UFO" means "alien spacecraft."

Let's parse the phrase. Noun: "Object." Okay, that's pretty general. Can't do much with that. Adjective: "Flying." Well, that's fairly definite. It means that the Object is moving through the air, not walking, swimming, or burrowing through the ground. Another adjective: "Unidentified." AHA! Now here's where the fun starts.

If the Unidentified Flying Object can be identified as an alien spacecraft, then that leaves a long list of very interesting questions. But the Flying Object is no longer "Unidentified."

"Unidentified" means "I don't know what it is," or "I can't put a label on it."

I see Unidentified Flying Objects all the time. They fly over where I live. I see lights moving through the night sky. From the sound that accompanies them, I assume that many of them are airliners on their way to the Seattle-Tacoma airport to the south. But I often can't see enough of them to tell if they are Boeing, Douglas, Air Bus, or what, nor if they are twin-engine or four-engine. Sometimes something will fly over and even hover awhile. Sounds like a helicopter to me, but since the only things I can see in the night sky are lights, I can't positively identify it as such.

On one occasion, as night was falling and I was walking from the garage where I had just parked my car to the apartment, I heard an object overhead and looked up to see bright lights, and a shape that looked for all the world like the Klingon battle cruiser that Kirk and the crew commandeered in Star Trek: The Voyage Home. But since all I could see of it was a silhouette, I tend to doubt that it really was a Klingon Warbird.

Speaking of birds, I can identify robins, crows, pigeons, ducks, geese, swans, flamingos (pink plastic and live), seagulls, and a number of others of our feathered friends, but (not counting the pink plastic flamingos) there are many of these "Flying Objects" that I can't "Identify." There are avid bird watchers who can, however.

There is an incredible amount of sheer bushwah and bovine droppings surrounding the whole UFO/Flying Saucer mythos. The vast majority of such is just plain baseless speculation and general nonsense. It's one helluva leap from an "Unidentified Flying Object" to alien visitors and all that implies.

But am I open to the idea that there are other civilizations out there? Most definitely. I would be very surprised if there were not, As Ellie Arroway (played by Jodie Foster) says in the movie Contact, if there was no one in this whole immense universe but us, "it would be an awful waste of space."

I think we need to be bit more precise—well, perhaps a bit less precise—in our use of expressions like "Unidentified Flying Object" and it's more widely used acronym, UFO, and not just instantly leap to the conclusion that something we see but can't identify is, ipso facto, an alien spaceship.

I keep an open mind.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:38 PM

Aye son as ma grnny used tae say "Theres mair things in heaven than earth"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: skarpi
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:24 PM

UFOs do not exist!   who said so ???


prove to me and the whole world that we are the, people who live on this planet alone in the universe ....


and I want a solid prove , not just this man said or it has been checked
or ,...........

yes there has been many things that can explain peoples seeing
, but there are many things unexplained .

all the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:20 PM

It's just that Texans don't usually even notice something unless it's really, really BIG. ;-)

A neighour of mine saw a UFO about a week ago. Quite an interesting description she gave of it too, but she didn't talk to too many people about it afterward, because she was afraid of being laughed at. The usual sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:16 PM

The non existent UFO in Stephville Texas resulted in 10 jet fighters being dispatched.

The airforce likes to keep the Crawfor Ranch 16 miles away safe from non existent UFOs that witness' said was about 3 footbal fields long.

Gotta hand it to Texans, Everythings measured in football comparisons.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:47 AM

Actually, I was a skeptic too, until I saw them. It was hard to find anyone MORE skeptical than I was at that age. I didn't believe in anything weird or unusual at the time. I was a real little scientific atheist, right to the bone, and figured I knew everything.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:41 AM

Andres:

I AM a skeptic. That is why I know what I saw and accept it as real. When you see one you will no longer be a skeptic. We could have some fine wine anyway. Maybe after a few, you could see one too.

Un abrazo, amigo. Espero que usted tenga un gran día.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 07:53 AM

Oh, there are lots of us who honestly want to see the evidence, Andres, but...how do we arrange that? :-)

I've seen AFO's (alien flying vehicles) on 2 occasions, both in the late 60's. I have not seen any since. I was not expecting to see any then.

How does one arrange such opportunities? I don't have an answer to that. The best I can do in the meantime is read the available information (of which there is PLENTY) in books and on the Internet, and try to sort it out and interpret it as best I can. The case of the Phoenix Lights (seen in 1997) is very interesting, and I just happened to meet 2 people yesterday who were from near Phoenix, Arizona, so I asked them if they knew about it. They said, "Yes, thousands of people saw those lights, and most people feel it could only have been alien vehicles of some kind, although the US Air Force later tried to simulate it later by dropping flares at night...but the flares looked quite obviously different."

The case of the Phoenix Lights is entirely convincing evidence of AFO's as far as I'm concerned. There were way too many witnesses, photos, and videotapes of the phenomenon to think otherwise about it, unless one is simply too prejudiced to think fairly about it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 02:56 AM

LH, I belong to the third group c) Those who honestly want to see the evidence :)

Brucie, that's a good question, you thought I was from Brazil, I say Argentina. I am not showing to you any evidence through these posts, then let's imagine that you demand an evidence. Which kind of evidence would you prefer?

a) I describe for you all my surroundings including the obelisc and the Argentinean flags
b) I send to you a photo of myself dancing the Tango and a crowd applauding
c) I reproduce written comments from serious journalists about my last performance
d) I send to you my home phone and address, so you or any trustable person can visit me as often as he wants, see my computer and these posts, and share some bottles of the finest wine

If you chose d) you could be falling into skepticism! The wine will be your reward.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:22 PM

Andres,

My apologies. Argentina.

Bruce M

OK. I believed you were from Brazil. You say Argentina. Who's correct.

Hugs back to you.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:14 PM

You are quite correct in your analysis of "knowledge", Andres. We all form conclusions based on our backlog of what we consider knowledge, but so much of it is secondhand. Yet what else have we got to go on? We can't experience everything firsthand, so we have to rely on other sources for most of the "facts" that we cram our heads full of.

I wouldn't expect Mufon or any of the other UFO-investigating organizations to convince anyone that UFO's exist. The only thing that convinces most people is a direct encounter of their own.

I think the primary purpose of the UFO organizations, in truth, is to allow people who have already had such encounters to get together with other such people, share a mutual interest, and look for more information. They may imagine they are going to convert someone, but I think they very rarely do. Most of the people who look up info published by UFO organizations are either...

a) people who already believe in alien visitors and want more info
b) debunkers and skeptics who want to pick holes in and find fault with the UFO organization's info in order to prove that it's all a bunch of nonsense

As such, you have 2 sets of people who are busy confirming their existing (and opposite) prejudices for their own personal satisfaction. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 11:56 AM

Don't tell me what I saw. You have no idea. (Brucie)

I have never told anyone including you what they saw, because I really cannot know that. I tell people what it also could have been what they saw. And about that I have a lot of ideas and knowledge.

I write about possibilities and not about certainties, that's a very big difference for me.

If 'honest mistake' mentioned as one possibility is a start of a pissing contest for you, I can't help it.
"You either believe what I say I saw or I don't talk to you anymore" is not a good argument in a debate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 05:03 AM

And you are generous indeed qualifying me, Amos :)

I don't want to leave the impression that I don't read documentation recommended by a person who thinks differently. I've visited www.mufon.com. They seem to be serious people. But (alas!) there is no one single evidence in the site, only some detailed investigations made by non-professionals without any conclusion, the usual claim for the seriousness of the informants, the usual claim for readers to submit their experiences to them, and the usual claim for dollars to know more. There is an incident that looks promising, but you have to order the book to see details. And if you want to be well informed, they request $ 45.00 for a one-year subscription to their magazine.

Considering the vast universe of information from universities and scientific institutions available free for the public, I think that the chances of mufon.com to convince people is very poor.

I repeat, I would be happy to see an evidence, because I accept that the possibility exists, and I certainly accept the existence of other civilizations (or true civilizations) in the Universe, as something absolutely independent from the existence of alien visitors. What gets my attention most, and what I would like to see here, is an interchange of ideas about WHAT will happen when we officially meet "them".

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:29 AM

Andrés


USted es un hombre muy educado y hidalgo!!

(I don't know if those terms are colloquial where you are, but I mean them to mean a man who is a gentleman and one of good upbringing!)

Thanks for he voice of reason and courtesy!


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 11:53 PM

Nothing new in the other thread, except good jokes. BUT there is something posted by LH that I find very interesting. LH, you say:

"As for Europe, the reasons I believe it's there are many...including the fact that I have met thousands of people who came from there or have been there. :-) That's good enough for me, even though I have not actually been there yet in this life."

That's the question. That's "good enough for you" That's why this thread has become a discussion about KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF, rather than existent or non-existent alien vehicles.

Of course the testimony of so many trustable people and solid history is good enough for me, and I beleive that Europe exists despite I have never seen the glorious Old Continent. A thousand charlatans could shout to me that Europe is only an invention of the media, and I would not believe a word from them. Because the existence of Europe has become part of my KNOWLEDGE.

As in that rough example, I could say that I know that vaccination is effective, that the Earth is almost spherical and there are trillions of planets in the known Universe. There are many other things I don't know, I can only BELIEVE, or CONJECTURE. For example, I can believe that there is life in other places of the Universe, and I can fantasize about an encounter. Simply the supposed evidence of UFOs as alien vehicles is NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME (and for all the universities and almost all the scientists of the world, by the way, not considering the military)

Note especially that I didn't say anything about vivid experiences of my eyes. I could have seen signals from my late wife, signals from Heaven and from Hell, but they are not valid as proof of anything, and I don't pretend people to accept that they are a reality just because my eyes told me so.

Finally, I absolutely disagree with this concept: "We all imagine ourselves surrounded by ignorant fools who don't know their ass from their elbow." LH, you know that we in the Mudcat, including you and me, could never imagine that.

Un abrazo, (a hug)
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:40 PM

(sigh) my questions remain unanswered. Let's see the other thread

Andrés, from Buenos Aires, Argentina, never from Brazil :)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 09:06 PM

Look, Escamillo, the only reason I became interested in UFO's in my late teens was because I SAW some. And I mean I saw what could only have been intelligently piloted vehicles of a totally unknown technology...I would assume from a nonhuman origin.

Prior to that I certainly did not believe in any such things.

And I am not afraid to say I saw them, despite the fact that someone who doesn't know anything about it has the gall to suggest I see a clinical psychologist.

As for Europe, the reasons I believe it's there are many...including the fact that I have met thousands of people who came from there or have been there. :-) That's good enough for me, even though I have not actually been there yet in this life.

It's the sheer faith of people who insist that something DOESN'T exist that puzzles me. How can they possibly know that? It is faith upon which their statement rests, though they will pull out any logical-sounding argument they can dream up to support that faith.

People just like to be "right", that's all. And that's ego. They would rather be right than be fair, thoughtful, respectful of others, or any other decent thing like that. It is unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 08:45 PM

Sorry: This is the last post. 425. Thank y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 08:38 PM

I think this will be my last post to this thread. I find it interesting that "UFOs do not exist!" has generated over 450 posts. May the force be with you (that's for the believers) and may the farce be with you (that's for the non-believers).

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 08:08 PM

Escamillo:

Try www.mufon.com

Maybe something there will work for you.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 07:53 PM

We have no way to know for sure that you are writing from Brazil, but most of us accept that.

I agree that most UFO pictures seem very hazy and out of focus. And I agree that OFOlogists certainly make finding the proof difficult. So let's get to Area 51. Why is it that US Senators have a hard time getting in there? And don't you call the testimony of people who have worked there proof?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 07:42 PM

I don't feel involved in an "endless circular debate" because my few comments and honest questions have been absolutely ignored, especially those concerning UFOlogist organizations who hide their evidences for themselves, and blame the governments for hiding the evidences. And especially the subject which gets my interest, which is our ideas about an encounter of civilizations, be it through UFOs, or our rockets, or inter-stellar communication, or whatever. :)

Un abrazo (a hug)
Andrés
PS: I've never been in Europe but I beleive that Europe exists. Does this make me a gullible person predisposed to beleive what the governments say?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 04:46 PM

That is exactly right. The only testimony most people will accept is testimony they are already inclined to agree with. :-)

And THAT is what mostly fuels all these endless circular debates on the Cat...Ego struggles, posing as objectivity.

It's a game. People play it to win, all the while assuring themselves that it is they who are objective, realistic, and well-informed. Everyone figures that when he arrives, the smartest person just stepped into the room. Ha! We all imagine ourselves surrounded by ignorant fools who don't know their ass from their elbow. "If ONLY they knew better!" Like we do.

Vanity, thy name is humanity!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 03:56 PM

Further to the above: Why will the courts accept the testimony as to what people saw--even lone witnesses to say a car crash--yet dismiss that same person's testimony to do with something I'll loosely call paranormal? This suggests that the only testimony people will accept has to be something they agree with. That posits a predisposition to the subject, don't ya think?

Aye, there's the rub.