BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy

Subject: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:13 AM

Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:30 AM

Nonissue. WOunded three times to differing degrees. Went in harm's way and came out alive. What's the flap? A PR cover by the Bushites? Puhleeze!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:50 AM

I'll worry about it when Bush shows me his Purple Hearts and Silver Star.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:15 PM

Kerry earned his medals fair and square. The Bush campaign is not one pursuing this subject, it's the press.

I think it's a shame, having earned them fair and square, he didn't think enough of them to keep them though.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:18 PM

The guys who even hold on to their Army uniforms after 25 years
are either "war heros" like W or pack rats.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:44 PM

Bush's folks are trying to say that Kerry didn't "really" throw away medals at a rally, and that he has a contradicted himself with a couple of stories. As usual, the Bush folks are wrong. The long and short of it, according to the interview I heard today with Kerry, was that when the rally started forming, Kerry had some of his ribbons (which he said were interchangeably referred to also as "medals") there that he could throw, but he didn't have all of his medals there. He threw the ones he had in his posession. In terms of that demonstration, he said there was a discussion about throwing or returning (or perhaps placing them somewhere) but Kerry (who wanted to return them) was outvoted so joined the others in throwing the things.

It is a non-issue contrived by Karen Hughes and others merely to try to distract from the issues regarding Bush's lack of credible or truly honorable "service." (One can observe that his record is the same now as it was back then--he's not credible or honorable). Bush's folks are scared shitless at what will happen when Bush has to meet Kerry face-to-face and discuss anything truly substantive because Bush will sound so tongue-tied and non-intellectual. (Perhaps they'll try to make the case that Kerry's too smart to do the job properly!) Bush's folks are firing into the crowd now with all of this stuff that even when it's straightened out can't be called back, hoping Americans are so stupid they can't tell this stuff apart and will vote for Bush-lite again.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:53 PM

No, Donuel. For example, my old boss, Ralph, kept his Marine Corps blues in pristine condition. They were a reminder to him of the guys he treated (he was a corpsman) on the beaches of Iwo Jima, of the guys he could save and those he couldn't. He kept in touch with many of those he saved and wept (I saw him) for those he couldn't.

No. The uniforms, the medals -- and I have mine -- are memories. There are those who brag about them, endlessly and repeatedly, and they are usually those who flew desks or fought it out on the parade ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:56 PM

The only exposure Kerry has is that his Viet Nam commander has said that Kerry's first wound didn't deserve a Purple Heart. A little late to mention that, frankly and it wouldn't matter except for one thing. With all Kerry's military records that have been made available in the last couple of weeks, I've noticed one thing is missing. The medical report on that first wound.

I hope Kerry's campaign isn't intentionally holding it back. Even if the wound was trivial, Kerry's not responsible for awarding the medal. Someone else made that decision, I don't see how you hold anyone but the Navy responsible for that.

Besides, it was a hell of a long time ago and it's time to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:03 PM

Symbols are empowered by the cause and the memory of the events they served.

Viet Nam is far from the cause and memory of WWII.

The symbol of W wearing 4 different military uniforms during his inavsion of Iraq is a mini reminiscence of a certain German leader who also had a personal lack luster military career.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:09 PM

Republicans did this same thing to former senator Max Cleland. Disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM

The issue is a crock.

Bush is a craven manipulator who ducked out; Kerry was and is a man of decency and courage who did what his duty called for. And din't like it, and chose to speak out against it. WHen they had the choice, Bush chose to start a war unnecessarily, while Kerry did what he could to end an unnecessary war.

Comparing the two of them is a bit insulting, really. Bush just doesn't measure up to Kerry.

Sorry.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

"Viet Nam is far from the cause and memory of WWII."

Really, Donuel? Vietnam? So my friend Joe, who was a Corpsman in 'Nam, can't do what Ralph did after Iwo? My late friend Bob, who was a medic in 'Nam, wasn't touched by those who worked on? That my friend Kent, a medic, doesn't and won't stay in touch with the guy he saved who had Willy Peter go off in his hand because the grenade was defective? My AF brother doesn't regret calling in Arc Lights? My other brother rejoices in choking a person to death so that the ambush wouldn't be blown by gunfire?

Have you been there? If not, how can you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:21 PM

People have been awarded the "Ruptured Duck" for stupid things: Staple through the finger, scratch on the arm. You tend to get the same medal when your guts were hanging out. It has always been a principle of keeping morale 'up' to give out lots of medals. As Rapper said, some people brag about them, and some simply honour them.

There is a street in Winnipeg that was renamed Valour Road when it was discovered that three VC (Victoria Cross--similar to the Medal of Honor in the US) holders lived within two blocks of each other. They didn't know each other at all, other than to nod as they passed each other on the street. Funny thing that. The nation's highest award for heroism and they seem never to have talked about it. Makes a guy feel very humble.

Most of us will never know the horror that front-line (hot-war) troops endure. We should thank whoever we worship for that. It is picky bullshit to worry about the fist PH. Real men don't kiss and tell.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM

I find it real curious that Kerry is getting heat from some partisan Viet nam vets and that stations like NPR are giving these guys so much air time. I was listening to one the other day, who didn't even know Kerry, go on and on. If that guy had had to pay fir that amount of air time, it would have cost tens of thousands of dollars, yet NPR just let him rant.. and rant... and rant... And it was all just partisanship...

Yet, the 8 members of Kerry's crew will occasionally make mention on page A23 of your local paper as supporting him but does NPR get one of them on to talk about how Kerry served in Nam? Heck no. And C-SPAN is worse. I try to listen to a little of it on the radio but every danged day of the week it's hours and hours of nuthing but either Bush or one of his folks going on and on...

Like I've said before. The media is in Bush hip pocket. The only reason they occasionally will ask a tought question is so that DougieR will be able to tell me I'm wrong... But we all see what is going on except the Repubs won't admit it. Why would they?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:28 PM

Viet Nam is an entirely different kind of cause and memory. If anything, it's more tragic than that of WWII for the American soldiers involved, precisely BECAUSE the stakes were not the same. They did not return home knowing they had liberated concentration camps, but in many cases found out they had been cruelly lied to by the government. Many of them, like John McCain and John Kerry, still saw the good in a country that had in some ways let them down, and made a career of public service. Rapaire and his brothers (AND John Kerry) deserve our thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:34 PM

"The symbol of W wearing 4 different military uniforms during his inavsion of Iraq is a mini reminiscence of a certain German leader who also had a personal lack luster military career."

Churchill? Oh, you said German, sorry.

"I find it real curious that Kerry is getting heat from some partisan Viet nam vets and that stations like NPR are giving these guys so much air time."

Bobert, until I say Kerry talking about it himself, I didn't understand how angry some Viet Nam vets were or way. That testimony in from of Congress was pretty appalling, and I don't think some vets will ever forgive him. I know WWII vets who to this day won't drive Japanese cars. He may have be articulate in his regret over the specific words he used, but what he said won't make a difference to vets who remember, partisan or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:38 PM

I saw Kerry today claiming that he threw away ribbons not medals. He blasted Bush for his no-show record in the National Guard. This looks to be a very ugly campaign given that the name calling has already begun while neither candidate has been officially nominated by his party.

I hope Kerry's statements play out. His credibility will be on a level with Bush's if it can be proved that he actually threw away his medals.

Donuel, have you served on active duty? Had your life depend on men you barely know? Been shot, knifed, wounded, burned???? I know veterans of the Gulf War who consider their experiences there life defining. A war does not have to be on the scale of WWII to make a man a hero. Would you also belittle a fireman who survived the World Trade Center as a packrat if he held onto his helmet or a medal for bravery placed on his chest by the Mayor? Hardly as great a cause (saving a few thousand people) as a World War. Take a tour of the many threads on Mudcat in which several here have bared their souls about experiences in war, then come back and apologize.

Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:40 PM

"That testimony in from of Congress was pretty appalling, and I don't think some vets will ever forgive him."

He did use a nice "radio voice" when testifying back in those days, though. He sounds much more natural now.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:12 PM

Donuel, while I enjoy your graphics, I must say that your take on the veterans, and lumping them in with the rightness or wrongness of the conflict they served in demonstrates that you have no concept of which you speak. I applaud your view on war in general, and share it. But you need to re-examine your disdain for those who served, and choose to remember. Please understand the context of these comments. I do not mean to attack you, but I feel as though you oversimplify the complex recipe used to create humans, and their memories.

Much of what goes into that mix has to do with the times in which the war was fought. Obviously WWII vet's have a different take than their brothers and sisters from Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf Wars. I would imagine the vet's from the Panamanian invasion have a different take yet. The result of the action would also play in. BUT, those feelings are entirely different from the feelings one has for comrades, fallen and survivors, that shared a life and death experience. Combat is an experience that cannot be described in any way but life altering. The death of a comrade has no parallel. Survivors guilt/elation changes a person fundamentally. Living with uncertainty for months at a time, experiencing how ones mental state changes as they go through a tour of duty, these are experiences that have no civilian counterpart. Throw this all in the mix, along with the things in ones life that made them who they are, and the times in which they live, and you get a very complex set of memories. To simply state that there must be something wrong with someone who holds onto a uniform shows a lack of depth on the subject.

Personally, I don't own a uniform or a ribbon. That whole time turned me in a different direction. But I would NEVER castigate my comrades in arms for whatever they came to out of it. Nor would I presume to understand what it is they honor by saving their mementoes. I find that those who do castigate these men and women, are folks that have never been in this situation. They are speaking from a theoretical, or self righteous position.

Want to kick the war makers? I am with you. Want to take shots at those who dehumanize the enemy in order to convince young ones to go to war? I am right there. But castigate those that went, when there is no way to know what really drove that decision? I will be your loudest critic.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:17 PM

Kerry went, Kerry saw, Kerry survived and returned to tell the American people and the Gov't just what he thought about the war. There were people who served honorably throughout the war. There are others who committed attrocities. Sometimes the truth hurts.

If only a few of the elite priviledged children had had to face the same risks maybe the Powers That Be who ran the war from DC might have brought it to an end sooner. He had the balls to go and the balls to tell it like it is. That's why he is hated so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:44 PM

Here is a discussion (biased?) about the seriousness of Kerry's wounds and a question if he "earned" all his metals, Purple Hearts (3) included:




Viet Nam Veterans Against Kerry

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:48 PM

There is a difference between being drafted into military service, and volunteering for it, and the mindset for each is often strikingly different.

I see no reason to idolize and put soldiers on pedestals, especially in an all volunteer army. They are not above criticism and beyond reproach, just because they have done military service.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:50 PM

Discussion? These guys are reactionary red-baiting McCarthyites!! With all due respect, they are bitterly rigid about the rightness of the war in Vietnam -- which is pretty hard to argue with hindsight making it clear that the horrible domino effect wasn't really that big a deal.

Anyway, I wouldn't grace it with the handle "discussion".

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:59 PM

Of course you don't, GUEST. But you are so bitter and nasty that you take positions just to be contrary. And anytime anyone attempts to say anything about veterans, you always take the time to jump in and let us know your contempt for us. But that is OK, your right to do so was part of the reason some donned that uniform. Even if you don't think it was effective, one would think that you would at least acknowledge the motivation of these men and women. Isn't that worth at least a nod of thanks from you? Tell us what you think of veterans motivations (even if you find them misguided) for going to war.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:04 PM

Cruiser, I was in Vietnam shortly after Mr. Kerry was. Believe me, I am very glad that I wasn't wounded once, regardless of how seriously, let alone three times (and it certainly wasn't because the opportunity wasn't there). And also believe me that, if I had been wounded and the opportunity had existed to go home early before Charlie had gotten luckier, you had better not have gotten between me and Ton Sun Nut Air Base.

As for the other medals, he earned them, in the judgement of his commanding officer, and they were his to keep or give away. If he decided to throw the medal ribbons over a fence and keep the big one with the hanging part, they were his to dispose of. They come in a nice blue box, you know, a big medal suitable for wearing on a dress uniform, a small one (that is the ribbon only) for the undress uniform, and a lapel pin. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:18 PM

"On Sunday, Bush adviser Karen Hughes said she was offended by Kerry's actions when he protested the war in 1971 and accused him of not actually throwing back his medals.

'He only pretended to throw his,' Hughes said in a CNN interview. 'Now, I can understand if, out of conscience, you take a principled stand, and you would decide that you were so opposed to this that you would actually throw your medals. But to pretend to do so — I think that's very revealing.'"

OK, sorry, I got behind on Kerry's Viet Nam record bashing. Too hard to keep up. Actually, I might have been happier if he really had given them back, even with the apparent contradiction of runnng on his war record. He earned them, that can't be taken away - giving them back is a different thing. The question is whether he really believed what he was doing at the time or not. (Ribbons versus medals, all the same thing.)

Another non-issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

Artbrooks,

I only received one medal and ribbon (yes that one, the one everyone gets when they are honorably discharged) because I did not go to Nam. I had a port call date of March 15, 1973, but did not go because of the cease fire when Nixon started reducing troops and sending them home.
I would have been a scout dog handler or combat medic because of my primary and secondary MOSs.

My brother, a Green Beret officer, was killed in Laos. By policy, I would not have had to go to war (only surviving son), but I chose to go when I was given the option. I wanted revenge for my brother. I guess I got lucky when the cease fire stopped my going to Viet Nam.

My brother had enough medals for both of us.

Thanks for your service.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:36 PM

There is some medical documention of Kerry's first wound, saying that they removed a piece of shrapnel and applied bacitracin. Which is far more documention tna we have of Dubya's service in Alabama.

As for Hibbard, who's now trashing Kerry and saying he didn't deserve the first Purple Heart, Hibbard's fitness report of Kerry is in the released military records, and Hibbard gave Kerry three "one of the top few" marks and one "above the majority" mark (and nothing worse than that). But Hibbard also noted he was unable to give more marks due to "insufficient observation" (Hibbard was doing the review after only the first half month of Kerry's Swift boat duty). So as far as reviews go, even the presently hostile Hibbard gave Kerry good marks back then, and the others that had more opportunity to observe Kerry gave him outstanding marks. So I guess you'll have to take Hibbard's present comments with a little grain of salt. . . .

The Republicans who are trashing Kerry for this simply have no shame. Line up Kerry's military record against Dubya's, and it's the difference between day and night. . . .

Cheers,
                         -- Arne

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:43 PM

"Which is far more documention tna we have of Dubya's service in Alabama."

Oh, I don't know. The official documentation for Kerry is just the Purple Heart paperwork, about a half page of real information very different from the medical report Kerry put out on the other two wounds. Bush offered the record of a visit to the dentist on the base in Alabama in the middle of the time when he supposedly wasn't there (and when the base commander who accused Bush of not showing up has admitted he didn't actually turn up on the base much himself). I'd call it 1 for 1 as far as the question raised that lead to the records getting published.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:18 PM

It's a good idea when starting a thread like this, about a news story, to post a link to the actual news story. Remember, the Mudcat is global.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:29 PM

Here McGrath:

Discarded Decorations

ABC Interview

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:09 PM

Sorry - I didn't take the time to reset my cookie.

I'm one of those who continues to have my uniform in the closet. All my ribbons where they should be. Pictures of my Brothers I served with on the walls of my den.

As far as whether or not we, the Vietnam veterans Against the War, believed in our cause or not? Some did and some did it just to get stoned and laid. Some of us did it because we were sick to death of our Brothers coming home in boxes for Johnson's oil.

I still believe I went to Vietnam with the intent of saving our world from Communism and helping a poor country out of its misery. those statements above can be taken many ways today. But back then it was with the purest of intent. I was a Marine and my job was to serve my country.

As far as throwing medals over the fence? It was a form of protest. And no one really cared whose medals they were. At that time they didn't mean much. Only later on in life did the full import of what they represented come to me. I'm proud of my medals. Or ribbons. Whatever you want to call them.

Now to the issue of Senator Kerry's medals. He earned them. And anyone who has not received one of those little Purple hummers has no right to talk about them. Unless you were with a few folks who earned them. There were "Ti-ti hearts" - the ones for little wounds. Then there were the big Hearts for the wounds that sent folks back to hospitals. There were Hearts for trees falling on people. Some folks got them during mortar attacks for tripping on tent stakes and ending up bleeding as a result of it. The REALLY big Hearts were when you got sent home - in a box. See a Heart is a Heart is a Heart. And it didn't, doesn't, matter how big or little it is.

Lots of folks were whining, want some cheese with that?, about whether or not the good Senator earned his Silver Star. Ask some of the folks who chased wounded folks into strange places if they didn't get a bit of a rush from that. Cornered critters have a tendancy to get aggressive when trapped and are scared. Even a mouse will fight to the death if scared enough.

So the question is this - What about his medals?

My response - And your point is . . . .??

Or maybe better yet - I have no issue with the Senator and nor do I have issue with what he has done since his time in the war. The veteran's group that is claiming to speak for all of us who fought there also happen to be the ones who blatantly doctored the picture of the Senator at the Senate hearings on the war with an NVA flag as a backdrop - and sent it around the net as a real picture. Not exactly an unbiased group in my insignificant opinion.

Any way - I agree with Mick - and Art - and the rest of the Veteran's views here for the most part.

Thanks for serving folks - you do America proud.

Semper Fi
Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:31 PM

Strick:

"Bush offered the record of a visit to the dentist on the base in Alabama in the middle of the time when he supposedly wasn't there . . ."

Quite true. He supposedly wasn't there even by his own records. The dentist appointment is in January, 1973, but his pay records don't show him putting in any hours in January anywhere. And he supposedly had gone back to Houston by this time. So yes, "he supposedly wasn't there."

". . . (and when the base commander who accused Bush of not showing up has admitted he didn't actually turn up on the base much himself)."

True, but no one else there saw him either ... except for that guy who the RNC dredged out who said, yas, he'd seen Dubya numerous times, even shared an office where Dubya would busily read flight safety reports (!). Only fly in teh ointment here is that this person placed Dubya on base from July through October, but Dubya's pay records show no time before late October in Alabama, and Dubya wasn't even approved to go to Alabama until September (IIRC).

Then there's the matter of Dubya's missing 1972 flight physical. It's nowhere to be found. But Dubya claims he didn't need to take it as he wasn't flying. That's simply wrong. And he was given a written order to take the physical after he had failed to comply with standing orders that pilots must take them once a year. But he still disobeyed this order, near as anyone can tell. . . .

Yes, let's trot out the two records side-by-side, and do a comparison. Fine with me. . . .

Cheers,
                           -- Arne

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:55 PM

Where were you in 1973, Arne? Do you remember that by 1973 US public opinion had turned radically against the war. Everyone who had the least plausible excuse to get out of the draft in the years just before had. The draft was over and that everyone one knew the war was essentially over. I took a entrance physcial in Bentonville, Arkansas that year. Never seen any thing military as lax as those guys were. It was enough to keep me from volunteering. I hear the same story from guys where in the Guard in those years. By 1973, there was no risk they were going to get called up. No one is ever going to shock me by telling me that the Alabama National Guard didn't exactly keep up with all their people and misplaced some paper work in the summer of 1973.

1968 when Kerry was in 'Nam was a different year. The country was still sharply divided. Even Kerry still thought the war was a good thing and didn't go anti-war until later. Out in my part of the world parents still expected their kids to volunteer and no one dodged the draft other than trying to get a college deferment. The five years between 1968 and 1973 changed the country more than anyone who didn't live through it could imagine. By '73 even the military families I grew up in small towns like mine with were trying to keep their kids out.

Kerry should be respected to for serving, but he faced his choice in a different time when most people supported the war.   Then he turned against it, and if you believe some Vets, against those who served.   Even if you think Bush played hookie from the Guard one summer, he did it when the country had already turned away from the war and we were doing everything possible to get out of it.

Now, if you want to compare Kerry's service in 1968 to what Bill Clinton was doing in 1968... ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:00 PM

Yo, Strick. As per usual, you missed my point. The point isn't about VietNam but the partisanship and the media. Why should a Repub. vet get lots of free media time when the Dem. vets don't???

Simple question.

Ain't 'bout Nam...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:33 PM

I understood your point, Bobert. I was just slipped streamed it to thinking that NPR is as liable to benefit from airing controversy as any other radio station. Putting Kerry's buddies on is OK to look balanced, but it won't help ratings.

NPR's kinder and gentler version of Jerry Springer's approach to attracting listeners.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:38 PM

Don't you think that GWB is a hero in his Flight togs landing on a carrier?---Finally got his flying for the Guard in. Ok so it was some 30 odd years late. But, El Jefe landed and said the fighting is mainly over.

I suppose that sits well with the families who were expecting people home from this ill advised adventure alive and soon and not later and in who knows what condition.

I sure hope people remember that come November---and hopefully no October surprises which I am sure are in the wings somewhere.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:51 PM

BillH:

GWB was told when he said that he wanted to land on the carrier to keep his hands off the yoke and don't mess with none of the fancy buttons... He was a passanger. Pure and simple. A passenger dressed up to look like a real carrier rated pilot... He couldn't land a jet on a carrier if they gave him 50 tries. All they would have gotten was 50 crashed airplanes and 50 dead GWB's...

Heck, I ain't never landed on a carrier deck myself but when this latest "Big Lie (or slight of hand) De Joir" occured and Bush was beating his chest like he had piloted the plane I challenged him to a contest. Heck he's 'sposed to know how to fly jets, right, and is 'sposed to have lots of experience. Okay, here's the challenge. I'll land a joy stick Piper Cub or Cesna on a carrier with noone in it but me (and I ain't got's lots of training and only a few half decent landings under my belt) if Bush will do the same in any jet...

He is a fraud and the challenge stands.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM

"I'll land a joy stick Piper Cub or Cesna on a carrier with noone in it but me (and I ain't got's lots of training and only a few half decent landings under my belt) if Bush will do the same in any jet..."

On average, one well trained, very experienced Navy pilot loses his or her life every aircraft carrier cruise. Landing on a carrier is about most dangerous thing you can do in a plane short of air combat.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:43 PM

Strick: I turned the magic 18 in '72. Got a high draft number, but they'd pretty much stopped most of the draft by then, so you'd have had to have a really low number to even start to worry. Even so, on principle, I would have gone for a CO had I been able (they wouldn't even let you do this until your number came up; you remained 1-S until there was a need for further classification). Your point?

As for you not volunteering, you seem to have been easily dissuaded. Makes one wonder about your 'enthusiasm'.

Dubya's problme is that the paperwork he does have doesn't match with his 'story', or that of the few people who have come forth to vouch for him.

Yes, there were many people against the war in 1973 (and in 1968 as well; remember Chicago?). Dubya wasn't one of them. Like Cheney, who had "other priorities", and Rush Limbaugh, who had a cyst on his butt, and so many other of the current Republican leadership, Dubya wasn't out there trying to stop the war; they were all just trying to keep their own butts out of harm's way. Now they're all chickenhawks, more than willing to get 711 (and counting) young soldiers killed in Iraq in one of the biggest mistakes ever made by an American president just to keep Dubya from looking like the "miserable failure" that he is.

Feel free to compare Kerry to Clinton if you want, but Clinton's not runnign for president. But IMOO, even Clinton has it over Dubya; Clinton opposed the war, thought it wrong, and protested to try and stop it. Dubya was just watching out for Numero Uno, a trait that has persisted with him to the present day.

Cheers,
                            -- Arne

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:10 PM

"Clinton opposed the war, thought it wrong, and protested to try and stop it."

Clinton began protesting the war after his deferment ran out. There's a reason the military expects people to provide evidence that they were COs significantly before they actually face having to serve. It's caused a conversion of convience. I never compared Kerry to Clinton, however. All I've ever said is that if Clinton got a walk, it's time to put Viet Nam behind us.   

"As for you not volunteering, you seem to have been easily dissuaded. Makes one wonder about your 'enthusiasm'."

Sure I was easily dissuaded. You didn't see what I did while I was there. They were filling their recuiting quota with people who had failed to qualify at three previous recruiting centers. Offered to help me pass a hearing test I had trouble with. THESE recruits were supposed to be the guy who were supposed to watch my back? Naw, the war was over, the draft was over, time to go back to college.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:21 AM

Since I have lived with war vets most of my life, I would agree that the reasons they served were all very different, depending on which war you're talking about. War changed all of them.

My ex-husband was in Vietnam and was awarded a medal for bravery. He didn't talk about it because he said they handed out metals in Viet Nam like they were prizes in a box of Crackerjacks. Besides, he said, it was more like getting a metal for temporary insanity. He lost faith in America and we moved to Canada in 1974. He still suffers from post traumatic stress syndrome.

My dad was in WWII and he didn't like to talk about it. He told us a few things: he was a machine gunner with two other guys, he served in the South Pacific. Thats about it. He died and when mom moved out of our family home, I was given her old hope chest. Inside I found my dad's uniform which I gave to my brother. I also found a Japanese flag with bullet holes and blood (I was shocked). I gave it to my other brother. I kept the metals and ribbons. I also kept the Western Union telegram telling my mom he'd be home for Christmas. I framed them. Although I hate war, its part of my heritage.

Serving in the military used to be part of being American. How men deal with it afterwards is different for each of them. I actually admire Kerry for speaking out against Vietnam. At least he stayed in the U.S. and protested. Many were so disillusioned they never wanted to be associated with the U.S. again. There's lots of them here in Canada and they're not all draft dodgers, either.

But whenever there is a draft, Canada gets some of the brightest and the best. Its called the brain drain up here.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:18 AM

I have a cousin who was in Normandy (I think Omaha) and the Battle of the Bulge...after the war he went back to school and got recruited by the CIA. He went to Thailand and formed the PARU (on stipulation from the King that he be a Colonel)...He and the PARU went to Loas and trained the Hmong hilltribes to fight the Pathet Lao. Many Hmong died. Towards the end there, the CIA were abandoning the hilltribes to be slaughtered and persecuted by the Pathet Lao. My cousin was instrumental in bringing many of them here to the states. He still goes to the Hmong conventions. He still goes to the reunions of those were there. He still goes back to Thailand and is treated like a national hero there. Many of us in the family think he should have been treated that way here as well.

You can read about Bill Lair and the other key figures of this covert war in this wonderful book called Shooting at the Moon by Roger Warner.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:24 AM

All I'm saying is military service doesn't automatically make a person honorable or worthy of being honored, anymore than community service does.

In warrior societies like the US, however, that fact is nearly always lost and anti-militarism sentiments nearly always shouted down, as you Big Mick do above. He is one of those former military types who goes ballistic anytime someone makes anti-militarism statements.

I am completely opposed to the glorification of veterans, and by extension, militarism, and war. It is worse right now than I have seen it at any time in my life. Glorification of veterans is a tactic used by politicians to keep the cannon fodder coming, and their families thanking the politicians for destroying their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:35 AM

"Peace at any price as long as I don't have to pay" Eh Guest?

I think Big Mick and others above who reacted to Donuel's first post to this thread were perfectly justified in doing so.

"In warrior societies like the US" you wouldn't recognise a "warrior society" Guest if one jumped up and bit you.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:36 AM

This "controversy" is about as manufactured as they come. The fact that the Bush team is pushing it so hard says more about them than it does about Kerry. Kerry served honorably, and behaved honorably in speaking out against the war after he came home. He never claimed that all, or most, American soldiers in Vietnam were committing atrocities, but he did point out -- correctly -- that atrocities were occurring over there, and that the US approach to this particular war fostered that to some degree. We can sit here over thirty years later and say that he shouldn't have used this word or that word, and Kerry acknowledges that he might say a few things differently if he had it to do over again. Big deal; the essential message was and is correct, as history has shown.

As for the "medals vs. ribbons" thing, when I was in the service I knew the difference, but didn't make a big deal about it. Medals were rarely worn; they only belonged on the dress uniform, which was mainly worn on ceremonial occasions. When wearing the "undress" uniform (which was the standard workday uniform when one wasn't in dungarees or fatigues), only ribbons were worn. But civilian friends would often ask me about the "medals" I was wearing, and I didn't bother to correct their terminology.

It would be nice if the news coverage focused more on real issues, and less on these sorts of orchestrated smear campaigns.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:50 AM

And I am might fed up with military service being used as the litmus test for patriotism, especially since there are only a small handful of Congressional members, senior members of the executive and judicial branches, whose own children are in the military, much less the front lines of Falluja.

Their hypocrisy sickens me, as does all the chest beating over medals, the hypocrisy of not being allowed to see photographs of the rapidly increasing number of dead soldiers coming home, and finally, of the faux patriotic funeral frenzy the media is falling all over itself to put on the nightly news to prove how patriotic the media is, and how honorable our military is for crushing Iraq under das big boot of imperialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:25 AM

GUEST of 8:50 a.m., I honestly mean no disrespect with this question, but have you ever gotten beyond, say, 1969 in your anti-military stance?

I choose that year deliberately, as it was in August, 1969 that I was sitting in the Seatac Airport, less than 24 hours out of Korea. On one side of the aisle, awaiting flights, were the GIs who returned from VN and ROK and on the other stragglers from Woodstock I. Both sides sat for hours, staring at each other, never realizing that if fate had turned slightly the sides would have been switched.

As for the "Warrior Society" of the US -- can you name one country in the world which cannot be so described? I will point out that Andorra has an Army, that the Swiss Guards in Vatican City are actually very well armed and trained, that Switzerland has mandatory military service.

I've seen far too often what unthinking reactions by "Liberals", "Conservatives", militarists, and pacifists can lead to.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:45 AM

As I understand it, the so called "Ruptured Duck" is a pin that shows you have been discharged, not to indicate that you were wounded.

There are a few medals that really show something worthwhile, but the rest are just "Decorations". I have one of those decorations.

Doug, how can you blame Kerry for disgarding medals or ribbons that were awarded for taking part in the wrong war? Or do you believe that we were right in going into Viet Nam?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, I keep forgetting to sign in under my own name, Kendall